Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac

[Magic_Johnny12]

Half the people posting on this thread wanted to trade him just a couple weeks ago for DSJ.


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Seriously

[OrlChamps2030]

Half the people posting on this thread wanted to trade him just a couple weeks ago for DSJ.


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I was interested in the idea of Isaac for DSJ. Don’t really see why I need to eat crow for that though.. DSJ was traded for Porzingis. I saw them both as good prospects that didn’t fit well on their teams. I knew J Simms and a 2030 2nd rounder wasn’t going to get it done like lots of posters on here wanted.

I’m happy that Isaac is showing more consistent flashes, especially on the offensive end. Never gave up on him, I’m just not as bullish on the Isaac-AG pairing as some.

Big pipe dream here but I wonder if WeltHam tries to swing for the fences with a trade package of AG+Bamba and Commits to a duo of Isaac/Vucevic

Lets be clear here, DSJ wasn't traded for Porzingis. DSJ + TWO first rounders + cap relief for the Knicks got them Porzingis.

DSJ was a big part of the deal. Point still stands, you have to give up value to get value. Isaac probably has a bit more value than DSJ but it’s not a robbery.. I don’t really see what was so outrageous or crow worthy about suggesting Isaac for DSJ. Guess it’s because we’re on the magic board

[NotACat]

I was interested in the idea of Isaac for DSJ. Don’t really see why I need to eat crow for that though.. DSJ was traded for Porzingis. I saw them both as good prospects that didn’t fit well on their teams. I knew J Simms and a 2030 2nd rounder wasn’t going to get it done like lots of posters on here wanted.

I’m happy that Isaac is showing more consistent flashes, especially on the offensive end. Never gave up on him, I’m just not as bullish on the Isaac-AG pairing as some.

Big pipe dream here but I wonder if WeltHam tries to swing for the fences with a trade package of AG+Bamba and Commits to a duo of Isaac/Vucevic

Lets be clear here, DSJ wasn't traded for Porzingis. DSJ + TWO first rounders + cap relief for the Knicks got them Porzingis.

DSJ was a big part of the deal. Point still stands, you have to give up value to get value. Isaac probably has a bit more value than DSJ but it’s not a robbery.. I don’t really see what was so outrageous or crow worthy about suggesting Isaac for DSJ. Guess it’s because we’re on the magic board

I think DSJ has much less value than Isaac because of where the league is at. There's an over abundance of guards available, many of whom are able to put up numbers and they'll continue to be more available with every upcoming draft because guards are expected to be your best shooters. DSJs creation/facilitation abilities aren't elite and you could find someone comparable to his creation ability fairly easily.

Isaac on the other hand is a big wing who has the quickness to stick with smaller wings. This is VERY important in today's game because every contenders needs at least 1 defender they can throw at Kawhii/KD/Giannis/etc since all the best players in the league, except for Curry, are wings. DSJ won't ever be able to contribute on defense the way Isaac is already able to contribute.

Offensively, I think his positives and negatives are a wash right now, but he is budding and his potential on offense is great.

Edit: the wing defense thing is also why I'm against trading AG for a guard

[OrlChamps2030]

Lets be clear here, DSJ wasn't traded for Porzingis. DSJ + TWO first rounders + cap relief for the Knicks got them Porzingis.

DSJ was a big part of the deal. Point still stands, you have to give up value to get value. Isaac probably has a bit more value than DSJ but it’s not a robbery.. I don’t really see what was so outrageous or crow worthy about suggesting Isaac for DSJ. Guess it’s because we’re on the magic board

I think DSJ has much less value than Isaac because of where the league is at. There's an over abundance of guards available, many of whom are able to put up numbers and they'll continue to be more available with every upcoming draft because guards are expected to be your best shooters. DSJs creation/facilitation abilities aren't elite and you could find someone comparable to his creation ability fairly easily.

Isaac on the other hand is a big wing who has the quickness to stick with smaller wings. This is VERY important in today's game because every contenders needs at least 1 defender they can throw at Kawhii/KD/Giannis/etc since all the best players in the league, except for Curry, are wings. DSJ won't ever be able to contribute on defense the way Isaac is already able to contribute.

Offensively, I think his positives and negatives are a wash right now, but he is budding and his potential on offense is great.

Edit: the wing defense thing is also why I'm against trading AG for a guard

Nothing you said is fundamentally wrong. Wings are the most valuable players in the NBA. PGs are the most saturated position I agree which impacts their positional value, but I think they still have a lot of impact on the game. Not really too interested in going back and forth on this because I am high Isaac, just questioning the long term fit of the front court.

Can’t even remember if I suggested Isaac for DSJ (I know I wanted DSJ + Barnes for AG) but I’ll eat crow for not thinking it’s an outrageous trade

[tiderulz]

Lets be clear here, DSJ wasn't traded for Porzingis. DSJ + TWO first rounders + cap relief for the Knicks got them Porzingis.

DSJ was a big part of the deal. Point still stands, you have to give up value to get value. Isaac probably has a bit more value than DSJ but it’s not a robbery.. I don’t really see what was so outrageous or crow worthy about suggesting Isaac for DSJ. Guess it’s because we’re on the magic board

I think DSJ has much less value than Isaac because of where the league is at. There's an over abundance of guards available, many of whom are able to put up numbers and they'll continue to be more available with every upcoming draft because guards are expected to be your best shooters. DSJs creation/facilitation abilities aren't elite and you could find someone comparable to his creation ability fairly easily.

Isaac on the other hand is a big wing who has the quickness to stick with smaller wings. This is VERY important in today's game because every contenders needs at least 1 defender they can throw at Kawhii/KD/Giannis/etc since all the best players in the league, except for Curry, are wings. DSJ won't ever be able to contribute on defense the way Isaac is already able to contribute.

Offensively, I think his positives and negatives are a wash right now, but he is budding and his potential on offense is great.

Edit: the wing defense thing is also why I'm against trading AG for a guard

are there? what good point guards are available this summer? its a pretty small list.

[NotACat]

DSJ was a big part of the deal. Point still stands, you have to give up value to get value. Isaac probably has a bit more value than DSJ but it’s not a robbery.. I don’t really see what was so outrageous or crow worthy about suggesting Isaac for DSJ. Guess it’s because we’re on the magic board

I think DSJ has much less value than Isaac because of where the league is at. There's an over abundance of guards available, many of whom are able to put up numbers and they'll continue to be more available with every upcoming draft because guards are expected to be your best shooters. DSJs creation/facilitation abilities aren't elite and you could find someone comparable to his creation ability fairly easily.

Isaac on the other hand is a big wing who has the quickness to stick with smaller wings. This is VERY important in today's game because every contenders needs at least 1 defender they can throw at Kawhii/KD/Giannis/etc since all the best players in the league, except for Curry, are wings. DSJ won't ever be able to contribute on defense the way Isaac is already able to contribute.

Offensively, I think his positives and negatives are a wash right now, but he is budding and his potential on offense is great.

Edit: the wing defense thing is also why I'm against trading AG for a guard

are there? what good point guards are available this summer? its a pretty small list.

I would argue Rubio, Bledsoe, Tyreke, Collision, Ish Smith, Corey Joseph, Lance Stephenson, Mudiay, DRose, and Delon Wright could be solid gets for most teams. I'm not saying each of these players will get you the same production as DSJ, but at least 70% if given the same opportunities to produce and at a much lower acquisition cost.

[Magic_Johnny12]

I think DSJ has much less value than Isaac because of where the league is at. There's an over abundance of guards available, many of whom are able to put up numbers and they'll continue to be more available with every upcoming draft because guards are expected to be your best shooters. DSJs creation/facilitation abilities aren't elite and you could find someone comparable to his creation ability fairly easily.

Isaac on the other hand is a big wing who has the quickness to stick with smaller wings. This is VERY important in today's game because every contenders needs at least 1 defender they can throw at Kawhii/KD/Giannis/etc since all the best players in the league, except for Curry, are wings. DSJ won't ever be able to contribute on defense the way Isaac is already able to contribute.

Offensively, I think his positives and negatives are a wash right now, but he is budding and his potential on offense is great.

Edit: the wing defense thing is also why I'm against trading AG for a guard

are there? what good point guards are available this summer? its a pretty small list.

I would argue Rubio, Bledsoe, Tyreke, Collision, Ish Smith, Corey Joseph, Lance Stephenson, Mudiay, DRose, and Delon Wright could be solid gets for most teams. I'm not saying each of these players will get you the same production as DSJ, but at least 70% if given the same opportunities to produce and at a much lower acquisition cost.

To add to the list you got Brogdon/Walker/Irving/Russell/Jones/Teague/Dragic/Rozier/McConnell/Satoransky

[fendilim]

are there? what good point guards are available this summer? its a pretty small list.

I would argue Rubio, Bledsoe, Tyreke, Collision, Ish Smith, Corey Joseph, Lance Stephenson, Mudiay, DRose, and Delon Wright could be solid gets for most teams. I'm not saying each of these players will get you the same production as DSJ, but at least 70% if given the same opportunities to produce and at a much lower acquisition cost.

To add to the list you got Brogdon/Walker/Irving/Russell/Jones/Teague/Dragic/Rozier/McConnell/Satoransky

Not gonna lie, but to rank DSJ with guys like Mcconnell, Satoransky is underrating DSj’s potential to be a go-to scorer. These guys play differently, and what separates dsj’s from them is his ability to create his own shot. Sure he is not hittin them at a high clip, but he’s shown flashes that he can. And guys like tj, colison, joseph and mudiay are more systematic players.

If you look at top teams in the league you need guys who can create at an elite level. Gsw has curry, durant, dmc. Sixers have embiid simmons butler tobias, list goes on. You need elite shot creators to be a top team in the league. And DSJ MAY have the potential to be that. While Isaac hasnt really shown any potential to be a go-to guy. He also shoots at almost the same/worse percentage as DSJ when he is asked to create, despite the small sample size compared to DSJ’s.

Isaac second year:
https://stats.nba.com/player/1628371/shots-dash/

DSJ rookie year:
https://stats.nba.com/player/1628372/shots-dash/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Not saying DSJ is a better player, but for a team lacking real scoring options, this team may be better off with DSJ moving forward than Isaac. And lets not forget, two weeks ago, we didnt have Fultz.

[tiderulz]

I think DSJ has much less value than Isaac because of where the league is at. There's an over abundance of guards available, many of whom are able to put up numbers and they'll continue to be more available with every upcoming draft because guards are expected to be your best shooters. DSJs creation/facilitation abilities aren't elite and you could find someone comparable to his creation ability fairly easily.

Isaac on the other hand is a big wing who has the quickness to stick with smaller wings. This is VERY important in today's game because every contenders needs at least 1 defender they can throw at Kawhii/KD/Giannis/etc since all the best players in the league, except for Curry, are wings. DSJ won't ever be able to contribute on defense the way Isaac is already able to contribute.

Offensively, I think his positives and negatives are a wash right now, but he is budding and his potential on offense is great.

Edit: the wing defense thing is also why I'm against trading AG for a guard

are there? what good point guards are available this summer? its a pretty small list.

I would argue Rubio, Bledsoe, Tyreke, Collision, Ish Smith, Corey Joseph, Lance Stephenson, Mudiay, DRose, and Delon Wright could be solid gets for most teams. I'm not saying each of these players will get you the same production as DSJ, but at least 70% if given the same opportunities to produce and at a much lower acquisition cost.

I believe some of those would be solid gets, i dont believe most of those will really be available.

[tiderulz]

are there? what good point guards are available this summer? its a pretty small list.

I would argue Rubio, Bledsoe, Tyreke, Collision, Ish Smith, Corey Joseph, Lance Stephenson, Mudiay, DRose, and Delon Wright could be solid gets for most teams. I'm not saying each of these players will get you the same production as DSJ, but at least 70% if given the same opportunities to produce and at a much lower acquisition cost.

To add to the list you got Brogdon/Walker/Irving/Russell/Jones/Teague/Dragic/Rozier/McConnell/Satoransky

most of those are not going to be available. Irving isnt coming here, no reason to even list him. may of those are RFA's.

[Last Guardian]

I think the point should be that this board simply needs to be more patient. Yes we have sucked for 7 years or whatever, but that isn't Isaacs fault, he just got here. Be patient with him and Bamba before we give them up for average players.

AG however should be open to criticism. He's been getting good minutes in this league for some time now, he doesn't have any excuses. He's been doing well lately, hopefully he keeps it up.

[magicman112]

I think the point should be that this board simply needs to be more patient. Yes we have sucked for 7 years or whatever, but that isn't Isaacs fault, he just got here. Be patient with him and Bamba before we give them up for average players.

AG however should be open to criticism. He's been getting good minutes in this league for some time now, he doesn't have any excuses. He's been doing well lately, hopefully he keeps it up.

And Isaac missed half of his rookie season so at this point he's played the equivalent of a year.

[bargnanimvp]

Half the people posting on this thread wanted to trade him just a couple weeks ago for DSJ.


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That was Bamba for DSJ

[bargnanimvp]

People need to realize floating the idea of trading a young prospect in a position we are already stacked in for another same age young prospect in a position we were weak in is not the same as "giving up" on the player or thinking the player is a bust.

[BadHombre]

Age is a primary factor you say. But people dont talk about potential when they talk about Kuzma or Mikail Bridges (for example), both of whom are +/- 1 the same age as AG. The “potential” tag on AG has stuck with him since his rookie contract.

People frown upon Wiggins, Parker, Exum, Randle’s potential, who is the same batch as Gordon. No one talks about potential anymore when talking about those guys. And we’re still talking about potential with Gordon??!

I don't know who these mysterious 'people' are who are doing this talking. All of those players still have potential. They're also in positions to realise that potential sooner because they have league experience and most of their development from here will come through finessing and consistency.

Lebron/Durant/Doncic etc have shown flashes even during their rookie year.. even guys like Mitchell, Kawhi, Paul George grew into their role early in their career. Yet, this is the 3rd year we have handed Gordon the top 3 usage on this team, and we’re still talking about potential??

There was a thread about Gordon breaking out as a star one season ago ( viewtopic.php?t=1610984&start=180 ). Until now we’re still waiting for him to breakout...

This is why I think its time to move on from Gordon and see what we have in Isaac. The guy has been playing with a purpose the past few games, if he can continue playing this way, he may end up being already better than him next year. He isnt as flashy as Gordon, but he may end up being more effective.

Interesting thread. If you read it, the greatest criticism of Gordon at the time was his lack of playmaking abilities.

A season and a half later, and Gordon has improved his handles (demonstrated in the numbers I posted before with both frequency and a massive jump in efficiency from last season to this season by 10%) and almost doubled his assists (from December through February, Gordon is averaging over 4apg).

This isn't a star-quality breakout, sure, but this is a gigantic leap in development and improvement. Not many other players can show such a significant shift and growth in their approach to the game, which is what I think should buy Gordon more time - Clifford is proving to be the right coach to maximise Gordon's abilities whilst simultaneously getting better efficiency from him, and Gordon is at an age now where the game is slowing down for him.

[SOUL]

People keep moving the goalposts with Gordon.

Also "People frown upon Wiggins, Parker, Exum, Randle’s potential".

Wiggins has shown to only be an inefficient chucker on a max contract, has effort problems.

Parker has not shown any desire to play any defense.

Exum has not gained any sort of traction with his play, timid.

Randle is like a bull in a china shop on offense, but he's gotten way better there. Still iffy on defense too.

AG is the only legit two way player on this list and is now starting to show that he can make plays decently with the ball as well. And he's on a decent contract. That isn't even being a homer either, because I would trade AG if it meant a roster that made more sense and we were getting back a great guard.. but he''s not frowned upon as much as those guys because he works his tail off on defense, and supplies more than adequate offense more often than not.

[NotACat]

People keep moving the goalposts with Gordon.

Also "People frown upon Wiggins, Parker, Exum, Randle’s potential".

Wiggins has shown to only be an inefficient chucker on a max contract, has effort problems.

Parker has not shown any desire to play any defense.

Exum has not gained any sort of traction with his play, timid.

Randle is like a bull in a china shop on offense, but he's gotten way better there. Still iffy on defense too.

AG is the only legit two way player on this list and is now starting to show that he can make plays decently with the ball as well. And he's on a decent contract. That isn't even being a homer either, because I would trade AG if it meant a roster that made more sense and we were getting back a great guard.. but he''s not frowned upon as much as those guys because he works his tail off on defense, and supplies more than adequate offense more often than not.

And his defense is really good.

[yoyojw17]

Age is a primary factor you say. But people dont talk about potential when they talk about Kuzma or Mikail Bridges (for example), both of whom are +/- 1 the same age as AG. The “potential” tag on AG has stuck with him since his rookie contract.

People frown upon Wiggins, Parker, Exum, Randle’s potential, who is the same batch as Gordon. No one talks about potential anymore when talking about those guys. And we’re still talking about potential with Gordon??!

I don't know who these mysterious 'people' are who are doing this talking. All of those players still have potential. They're also in positions to realise that potential sooner because they have league experience and most of their development from here will come through finessing and consistency.

Lebron/Durant/Doncic etc have shown flashes even during their rookie year.. even guys like Mitchell, Kawhi, Paul George grew into their role early in their career. Yet, this is the 3rd year we have handed Gordon the top 3 usage on this team, and we’re still talking about potential??

There was a thread about Gordon breaking out as a star one season ago ( viewtopic.php?t=1610984&start=180 ). Until now we’re still waiting for him to breakout...

This is why I think its time to move on from Gordon and see what we have in Isaac. The guy has been playing with a purpose the past few games, if he can continue playing this way, he may end up being already better than him next year. He isnt as flashy as Gordon, but he may end up being more effective.

Interesting thread. If you read it, the greatest criticism of Gordon at the time was his lack of playmaking abilities.

A season and a half later, and Gordon has improved his handles (demonstrated in the numbers I posted before with both frequency and a massive jump in efficiency from last season to this season by 10%) and almost doubled his assists (from December through February, Gordon is averaging over 4apg).

This isn't a star-quality breakout, sure, but this is a gigantic leap in development and improvement. Not many other players can show such a significant shift and growth in their approach to the game, which is what I think should buy Gordon more time - Clifford is proving to be the right coach to maximise Gordon's abilities whilst simultaneously getting better efficiency from him, and Gordon is at an age now where the game is slowing down for him.

"Potential: latent qualities or abilities that may be developed and lead to future success or usefulness."

If that doesn't define Gordon... i don't know what does. lol

The guy is constantly improving in things that no one pegged him as even having or being able to do. Yes there will be the rough patch and learning curve ... but Gordon is a well of untapped potential. All star level.... eh.... not quite so much possibly but he is definitely turning into a very unique player. The important thing in the end for me ... is him balancing and utilizing his other strengths ... running the break... cutting ... athletic put backs etc... instead of always pushing the project abilities to the forefront all the time. And when he solidifies the new abilities... mixed with his already given strengths... the kid will be special.

So yes.... "Potential" is his middle name haha

[BadHombre]

it doesn't .It's just that one skills is being isolated, that he is improved on and used as measuring stick of his development.

Yes, because the greatest criticism of his game and what's considered to be holding him back from reaching new heights has been about has inability to create or playmake. Drives and assists are the perfect measuring stick for that. He's made significant improvements on those fronts which have separated him from the likes of Thad Young, and moved him into the stratosphere of versatile big wings.

And now most important thing:
drives per team .

This is such an unfair thing to do. Pick up player's drives from 2014-15 ( Leonard, Goerge) and use Gordon's 2018-19 stats as measuring stick.
Toronto Raptos in 2018-19 are driving at rim 56 times per game.
San Antonio Spurs in 2014-15 were driving at rim 41 times.

More obvious example are George led teams
in 2014-15 George's Indiana players were driving at rim only 28,9 times per game.
Oklahoma this year drives 44 times per game.

So as you can see huge difference in total numbers. Yet almost no co-relation in wins between drives and good offense. So for example, the worst driving team this year are- Warriors ( less than 28 times per game ). Second worst- Phily. (33). To make things worst, two of best ( in terms of attemps ) are Hawks and Jazz. Not great teams to say a least.

C'mon man, you're twisting the truth here and you know it. Yes, the Warriors and 6ers are at the lower end of the drives spectrum, but on the other end you've also got the Bucks and Raptors. Surely you noticed that the #1 team in league standings right now was heavy on drives, so why choose to omit it? I don't mind back and forth, but at least try to present information fairly.

So ultimately, this is all just noise, because team construct and coaching defines how that team will play. You've got the league's top teams on both ends of the spectrum: Warriors/Nuggets with fewer drives, Raptors/Bucks with more. All of those teams have just maximised their strengths.

Spurs in 14-15 were driving 41 times. Magic in 18-19 are driving 41 times. It's not like Gordon is playing in a different situation - and his numbers are still tracking with Kawhi's.

Gordon is entering his prime ascent right now. The game is slowing down for him, his decision making is getting better, his skills are becoming more reliable, and his role/capability/impact is steadily increasing as a result. He probably won't ever be a league leading star, but there's no reason he can't be a #3 option on a contender who can shoot/drive/pass/defend as long as his performances continue to trend upwards each season the way they have been.

I made this " third option on great team " analogy 3 years ago and i still stand by it. Gordon is improving, but i just don't see player that will be anything more than that. Maybe i'm wrong, maybe not, time will tell.
Over time i just got so bored and tired listening about his "Potential" when there are guys like kuzma who fans here treated as finished procuds, being same age of him. I always thought how his "potential" is way overblown and pretty much always excuse for his shortcommings. Guy is 5th year player, his ceiling is pretty clear , it's above average role player , with or without passing ,driving , shooting, scoring ,rebounding numbers going marginally up and down through seasons. He is pretty much copy past same player for 2 years. With clear problems . At least to me [/quote]

It's night and day different from where he was 2 years ago to where he is today. That's the whole point of acknowledging his improvement on drives and passing, because he has completely redefined his game and capacity to impact it. Yes he has flaws, but his game is growing, so I'm not sure how we can consider him a finished product yet. Even if his ceiling is in the calibre of "3rd option on great team", there's still a lot of growth and impact he can have in that role.

Why nobody talks about Wiggins as future potential? Dude is same age as him? Hell, there is ingram treated as finished product, at age of 21. It's just double standards and giving player on your favorite team unlimited leeway to do something just to feel good about him as player. I saw more improvment in Randle over year than Gordon over last 2 . Nobody looks at Randle as future star. ( not saying you think Gordon is future star, but there are people on this forum who do, for years ).

I can't speak for others, but I still hold Wiggins and Randle in high regard. I actually think Randle is the league's best kept secret at the moment, since nobody seems to talk about him, but he's an effortless and efficient 20/10 every night. I actually think he's already better than Vuc, and I'd swap the two of them in a heartbeat if possible. Wiggins just isn't a very smart player, and he hasn't been coached by offensively smart coaches either. Put him under the tutelage of Pop/Kerr/Bud/Nurse and he would blossom. I put him on a DeRozan like development track over the new few seasons.

[BadHombre]

People keep moving the goalposts with Gordon.

Also "People frown upon Wiggins, Parker, Exum, Randle’s potential".

Wiggins has shown to only be an inefficient chucker on a max contract, has effort problems.

Parker has not shown any desire to play any defense.

Exum has not gained any sort of traction with his play, timid.

Randle is like a bull in a china shop on offense, but he's gotten way better there. Still iffy on defense too.

AG is the only legit two way player on this list and is now starting to show that he can make plays decently with the ball as well. And he's on a decent contract. That isn't even being a homer either, because I would trade AG if it meant a roster that made more sense and we were getting back a great guard.. but he''s not frowned upon as much as those guys because he works his tail off on defense, and supplies more than adequate offense more often than not.

I've got to disagree on the Wiggins and Randle criticisms. I still have high hopes for both players futures, which will be heavily dependent on the coaching situations they end up in.

I would trade Randle for Vuc right now. In fact, I think we could swap them today and we might actually improve since Randle is a much more reliable offensive option than Vuc. Some team will miss out on big name FAs this summer and sign Randle as a cheaper back up - and they're going to be incredibly shocked at what he brings to them.

Exum... he hasn't shown much. I want him to be great, but Utah are pretty fantastic at developing players, so I would imagine they've identified his ceiling somewhat.

But, 'potential' still describes all of them. They all have latent and unfulfilled abilities that someday might rise to the surface.