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Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac

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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#241 » by Xatticus » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:17 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:
Shady Franchise wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
wow

Prince played in times when defense was focus of every team, league average during his prime was well below 100 points. PPG total, per team saw around 15ppg boost from that early 2000s.

But even with overall stat inflatation, it's still hard to imagine player like Isaac going to 20 ppg because it requires a lot more than just shooting wide open jumpers ( and that's what he is doing now ) ,with occasional transition points.
RIght now 1/3 of all his points are wide open 3s ( closest defender not closer than 4 feet ).
It will require huge improvment in his game ( ballhandling, decision making, playing with ball ) to come anwhere near 20 points.
We saw with Gordon how that things simply don't come easy to players who don't have natural gift for offense.

To this day, after 2 full seasons, Isaac never averaged 14 ppg during long period of time (13,7 during 11 games is closest to that), let alone anything above that.

TIme will tell but i don't think you are having realistic expetations for somebody who's career tragjectory looks similar to Ibaka, and if Magic are lucky ,can end up looking like Siakam ( similar build, guy had offensive explosion this year )

Kirilenko thing is interesting , guy had odd career, peaked at age of 22. He is probably best example why fans shouldn't hold their breath about untapped potential and why it's impossible to project careers, but that's story and topic for another day.

If i want to guess, i assume Isaac in his 25-27 ( basically new prime for most players now) will average around 13-15 ppg, 7-8 rpg, 1,8 -2,0 bpg and be treat from outside. But i don't see transending star or allstar. Useful role player.

Looks very similar to the stats I posted earlier today comparing him to Manning. :wink: I believe Manning even had a couple of years in the 20 PPG scoring range, so this comp can please everyone. :D


I am more of the mind of a zero chance in hell Slim makes 20ppg. People make it seem easy for players to reach that 20ppg milestone. It took Vooch years to get there and he is a very good offensive talent. Slim isn't even close to Vooch talent offensively, does not have good handles and does not create his own shot. I say 16ppg tops. But, scoring won't be the determing factor if he is a great player or not. It will be his defense and team play which will make him great, not his scoring. Players like Slim are great role players on Championship teams like Tayshaun was, not the top scoring player on a team.


This is such a silly conversation. He could average 20 points per game right now if that were the purpose of our organization.

Box score numbers and per game averages mean very little without context. Two players could post almost identical lines while playing completely different brands of basketball. Further, one could be highly efficient while the other a significant liability to his team.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#242 » by BadMofoPimp » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:20 pm

Xatticus wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
Shady Franchise wrote:Looks very similar to the stats I posted earlier today comparing him to Manning. :wink: I believe Manning even had a couple of years in the 20 PPG scoring range, so this comp can please everyone. :D


I am more of the mind of a zero chance in hell Slim makes 20ppg. People make it seem easy for players to reach that 20ppg milestone. It took Vooch years to get there and he is a very good offensive talent. Slim isn't even close to Vooch talent offensively, does not have good handles and does not create his own shot. I say 16ppg tops. But, scoring won't be the determing factor if he is a great player or not. It will be his defense and team play which will make him great, not his scoring. Players like Slim are great role players on Championship teams like Tayshaun was, not the top scoring player on a team.


This is such a silly conversation. He could average 20 points per game right now if that were the purpose of our organization.

Box score numbers and per game averages mean very little without context. Two players could post almost identical lines while playing completely different brands of basketball. Further, one could be highly efficient while the other a significant liability to his team.


In that context, Iwundu could average 20ppg. Slim in my opinion will never get close to 20ppg. He is not that type of aggressive player or talented in handling the ball or creating shots. 16-17ppg max for me and I will take bets on that. To me, this is more homers praising their favorite players like we see on every team on RealGM boards.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#243 » by Xatticus » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:14 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:
Xatticus wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
I am more of the mind of a zero chance in hell Slim makes 20ppg. People make it seem easy for players to reach that 20ppg milestone. It took Vooch years to get there and he is a very good offensive talent. Slim isn't even close to Vooch talent offensively, does not have good handles and does not create his own shot. I say 16ppg tops. But, scoring won't be the determing factor if he is a great player or not. It will be his defense and team play which will make him great, not his scoring. Players like Slim are great role players on Championship teams like Tayshaun was, not the top scoring player on a team.


This is such a silly conversation. He could average 20 points per game right now if that were the purpose of our organization.

Box score numbers and per game averages mean very little without context. Two players could post almost identical lines while playing completely different brands of basketball. Further, one could be highly efficient while the other a significant liability to his team.


In that context, Iwundu could average 20ppg. Slim in my opinion will never get close to 20ppg. He is not that type of aggressive player or talented in handling the ball or creating shots. 16-17ppg max for me and I will take bets on that. To me, this is more homers praising their favorite players like we see on every team on RealGM boards.


I really don't think you are appreciating what I am trying to convey.

20 points per game isn't inherently better than 12 points per game. It's entirely possible for a player to score 20 points in a game while doing more harm than good to his team's offense. This actually happens frequently. There is an opportunity cost associated with nearly every field goal attempt over the course of a game. The only exceptions to this are end of clock situations. What matters is the quality of shots that are created by an offense and how each player impacts the quality of those shots when they are on the floor.

Isaac's scoring is dictated by his usage and his usage is dictated by his role in our offense. He is never used as the initiator or screener in pick and rolls. I've only seen him fed the ball in the post on a handful of occasions over the course of the season. His role is to space the floor. Anything else he gets comes from offensive rebounds, backside cuts, or transition opportunities. You can't score in the pick and role if you are never involved in it. You can't score in isolations or post ups when you are never in such situations.

In the absence of our high usage options at present, our offense would look very different. Isaac's role in such an offense would be significantly larger and he could very well be averaging 15 or more points per game right now. Just have a look at what Collin Sexton is doing in Cleveland right now.

Ron Harper scored a hell of a lot of points before he teamed up with Jordan to win some championships. His scoring dropped off a cliff because his offensive role changed; not because he suddenly forgot how to score. It's just dumb to argue about how many points per game a player could hypothetically score in the future; especially when we have really only seen said player in a limited role within a scheme built around Vucevic for what amounts to one season.

Regardless of whether or not Vucevic is back next season, I hope to see Isaac's role within the offense expanded substantially. He needs to get stronger and he needs to improve his screening, but I definitely want to see him involved in more of the on ball action next year.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#244 » by Mule Tears » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:48 pm

NavalAviator94 wrote:
Mule Tears wrote:His ceiling is Tyrus Thomas -- if we're lucky.


Your ratio makes sense.

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LOL, you can't possibly be serious.

Because virtual numbers on a message board outlining your contributions is EVERYTHING, right?

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

Kids these days....haha
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#245 » by NavalAviator94 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:21 pm

Mule Tears wrote:
NavalAviator94 wrote:
Mule Tears wrote:His ceiling is Tyrus Thomas -- if we're lucky.


Your ratio makes sense.

Posts: 1,958
And1: 136


LOL, you can't possibly be serious.

Because virtual numbers on a message board outlining your contributions is EVERYTHING, right?

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

Kids these days....haha


Relax, I’m just ribbing you. I’m am probably older than you though. ;-)
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#246 » by BadMofoPimp » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:38 pm

Xatticus wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
Xatticus wrote:
This is such a silly conversation. He could average 20 points per game right now if that were the purpose of our organization.

Box score numbers and per game averages mean very little without context. Two players could post almost identical lines while playing completely different brands of basketball. Further, one could be highly efficient while the other a significant liability to his team.


In that context, Iwundu could average 20ppg. Slim in my opinion will never get close to 20ppg. He is not that type of aggressive player or talented in handling the ball or creating shots. 16-17ppg max for me and I will take bets on that. To me, this is more homers praising their favorite players like we see on every team on RealGM boards.


I really don't think you are appreciating what I am trying to convey.

20 points per game isn't inherently better than 12 points per game. It's entirely possible for a player to score 20 points in a game while doing more harm than good to his team's offense. This actually happens frequently. There is an opportunity cost associated with nearly every field goal attempt over the course of a game. The only exceptions to this are end of clock situations. What matters is the quality of shots that are created by an offense and how each player impacts the quality of those shots when they are on the floor.

Isaac's scoring is dictated by his usage and his usage is dictated by his role in our offense. He is never used as the initiator or screener in pick and rolls. I've only seen him fed the ball in the post on a handful of occasions over the course of the season. His role is to space the floor. Anything else he gets comes from offensive rebounds, backside cuts, or transition opportunities. You can't score in the pick and role if you are never involved in it. You can't score in isolations or post ups when you are never in such situations.

In the absence of our high usage options at present, our offense would look very different. Isaac's role in such an offense would be significantly larger and he could very well be averaging 15 or more points per game right now. Just have a look at what Collin Sexton is doing in Cleveland right now.

Ron Harper scored a hell of a lot of points before he teamed up with Jordan to win some championships. His scoring dropped off a cliff because his offensive role changed; not because he suddenly forgot how to score. It's just dumb to argue about how many points per game a player could hypothetically score in the future; especially when we have really only seen said player in a limited role within a scheme built around Vucevic for what amounts to one season.

Regardless of whether or not Vucevic is back next season, I hope to see Isaac's role within the offense expanded substantially. He needs to get stronger and he needs to improve his screening, but I definitely want to see him involved in more of the on ball action next year.


I don't think you understand how extremely hard it is for any player to average 20ppg for an entire season. Only about 30 players each year make that happen. And, all of them appear to have better handle, shooting and can create their own shot. Slim is not as good offensively as any of them. He will be a good catch and shoot with some layups and putback player avering up to 16ppg. Just watch and witness over the next decade and we can see who can prove the other wrong then we can trash talk 8-) each other!
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#247 » by swarlesbarkley » Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:01 pm

JI showed some massive improvements in 2019. Homer glasses totally on, what would you rather he become in 4-5 years:

Mini Durant
OR
Mini Giannis
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#248 » by NotACat » Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:32 pm

swarlesbarkley wrote:JI showed some massive improvements in 2019. Homer glasses totally on, what would you rather he become in 4-5 years:

Mini Durant
OR
Mini Giannis

Hybrid of the two is more likely. He has a better jumpshot than Giannis, but his scoring ability won't ever be at the same level as KD
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#249 » by Magic_Johnny12 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:11 pm

I think it's time to resurrect this topic (more out of boredom and recent news).

Read on Twitter
?s=20

Read on Twitter
?s=20

Any predictions of what we can expect from Juddah this season?

Does he have MIP/DPOTY potential?
PM me if you can help a brotha finally get an AVI.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#250 » by PrimeThyme » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:36 pm

I could see him as a MIP candidate for sure if with an added offseason of bulking and refining his game offensively we can see him build off of what we saw from him the last half of the season.

I think we need to see him get an All-defensive team selection first though before we can expect to see him win an award like DPOTY. If this team can remain in the 2-6th seed range next year I'm expecting an all-defensive team selection from him next year. A DPOTY award can be something down the road if this team becomes a contender and Isaac continues to take jumps we can hope for.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#251 » by dsg2021 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:11 am

Tayshaun Prince as the floor 8-)
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#252 » by basketballRob » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:24 am

He's on the team select, so they'll just scrimmage with the national team.

Boston gets 3 players on the national team. I'm going to enjoy beating them this year.

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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#253 » by yoyojw17 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:11 am

Magic_Johnny12 wrote:I think it's time to resurrect this topic (more out of boredom and recent news).

Read on Twitter
?s=20

Read on Twitter
?s=20

Any predictions of what we can expect from Juddah this season?

Does he have MIP/DPOTY potential?

oh my.... this made my morning. And with a couple more months to go... that can rise a couple pounds. Can't WAIT to see how that WEIGHT helps! Isaac and Bamba have put in some solid work this offseason. Actually their physical maturity is better than i expected at this point. Now let's see how it translates.

And being apart of the select team gives him some great exposure to higher level competition. :-)
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#254 » by Skybox » Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:17 am

would love to hear about him just creating chaos defensively among the Team USA scrimmages and putting himself on the NBA map for real.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#255 » by basketballRob » Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:38 am

Skybox wrote:would love to hear about him just creating chaos defensively among the Team USA scrimmages and putting himself on the NBA map for real.
Some of the scrimmages should be televised. I remember watching Oladipo and Harris.

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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#256 » by MagicFrenchie » Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:48 am

Being selected to USA scrimmages is like an automatic validation for me. He is recognized as a solid young piece of the NBA by the specialists and will improve with those experiences.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#257 » by Skybox » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:19 pm

basketballRob wrote:
Skybox wrote:would love to hear about him just creating chaos defensively among the Team USA scrimmages and putting himself on the NBA map for real.
Some of the scrimmages should be televised. I remember watching Oladipo and Harris.

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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#258 » by UCFJayBird » Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:44 pm

Just to temper excitement over the weight gains, players tend to lose a good deal of weight over the season and bulk up in the offseason. Yea, him going from 209-234 is a HUGE gain, but I'm more interested to hear what he started last season at and what he'll wind up at at the end of this season.

My guess is he probably starting last season in the 220 range. Still a good jump to 234.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#259 » by Bakomagic » Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:53 pm

NavalAviator94 wrote:
Mule Tears wrote:
NavalAviator94 wrote:
Your ratio makes sense.

Posts: 1,958
And1: 136


LOL, you can't possibly be serious.

Because virtual numbers on a message board outlining your contributions is EVERYTHING, right?

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

Kids these days....haha


Relax, I’m just ribbing you. I’m am probably older than you though. ;-)


To be fair to you, it was a pretty weird player comparison. Tyrus was an athletic, low BBIQ, rim running big. Isaac is a versatile, High BBIQ, who has shown more touch than Tyrus. Khem Birch is a better player comparison for Tyrus.

I like the Tayshaun Prince comparison, although I wont speak to Ceilings and Floors, Strictly speaking on play style.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#260 » by tiderulz » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:10 pm

UCFJayBird wrote:Just to temper excitement over the weight gains, players tend to lose a good deal of weight over the season and bulk up in the offseason. Yea, him going from 209-234 is a HUGE gain, but I'm more interested to hear what he started last season at and what he'll wind up at at the end of this season.

My guess is he probably starting last season in the 220 range. Still a good jump to 234.

yeah, i would guess a player loses 5-10 lbs each season

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