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Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac

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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#41 » by Furinkazan » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:11 pm

yoyojw17 wrote:
dsg2021 wrote:You just thank God none of y'all run the FO or have any tiny bit of sway with it whatsoever. Simple. I never once, ever put J.I. in a single trade scenario, ever, period. It's as obvious as it can f'in be as to why. And I gave up defending on him for the same exact reason I wrote in my first sentence. It's just too tiring to bother with some of the people in here these days.

And the only other player in the entire roster who comes close to J.I.'s value in terms of youth/upside/untapped ceiling is AG. So no, there's no B.I.G. problem for me, either. At least not with AG and J.I. together.

BIG doesn't work because 2 of the 3 are pretty much rookies and works in progress... does not make sense. SMH. This Isaac is a totally different person from 2018... and has now started to look good with gordon... who on his own is still getting better and bamba has played... 47 games at 16 mpg and his body is still 2 years away from being NBA matured. Does BIG work NOW.... nope not really.... can they become something special when they have hit their primes... Dang right i believe they can. Either that or we can scrap and separate .... then look back and say something like "MAAAAANNNNN TOBIAS would look great next to Gordon right now".

Needless to say.... if they were already close to reaching their potentials.... blow it up. But I still believe Isaac and Bamba are scratching the surface and gordon is not close to his peak either.



Shame we coudnt add Dennis Smith and without giving up any of the BIG

we would have SBIG

like SNASA



I wonder if we would win SNBA title
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#42 » by Furinkazan » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:18 pm

Instead we got FBIG
?:D do I have to spell it?:D
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#43 » by dsg2021 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:19 pm

yoyojw17 wrote:
dsg2021 wrote:You just thank God none of y'all run the FO or have any tiny bit of sway with it whatsoever. Simple. I never once, ever put J.I. in a single trade scenario, ever, period. It's as obvious as it can f'in be as to why. And I gave up defending on him for the same exact reason I wrote in my first sentence. It's just too tiring to bother with some of the people in here these days.

And the only other player in the entire roster who comes close to J.I.'s value in terms of youth/upside/untapped ceiling is AG. So no, there's no B.I.G. problem for me, either. At least not with AG and J.I. together.

BIG doesn't work because 2 of the 3 are pretty much rookies and works in progress... does not make sense. SMH. This Isaac is a totally different person from 2018... and has now started to look good with gordon... who on his own is still getting better and bamba has played... 47 games at 16 mpg and his body is still 2 years away from being NBA matured. Does BIG work NOW.... nope not really.... can they become something special when they have hit their primes... Dang right i believe they can. Either that or we can scrap and separate .... then look back and say something like "MAAAAANNNNN TOBIAS would look great next to Gordon right now".

Needless to say.... if they were already close to reaching their potentials.... blow it up. But I still believe Isaac and Bamba are scratching the surface and gordon is not close to his peak either.


I can agree and see where you're going with your post, except for one thing.. and this is why I'm in complete shock with so many people here: J.I. is ACTUALLY not very different at all from his rookie year! That's the absolutely crazy thing, that people are not seeing except for a few of us. It's all in his defense and his true impact on the floor, the kind that never touches the boxscore. So yeah, Isaac got what was it, 3 blocks and 1 steal in one possession, with a made 3 pointer in the next possession right after. Of course, something like that is what ORL is striving for with Isaac. (Nevermind that when I talked up Isaac a few weeks ago as ORL's "secret jet fighter project" no one agreed and a few disagreed..).. But take this for instance, with what I am trying to say, there was a possession not too far from that 3 blocks, 3 points one.. where Fournier steals the ball and keeps it away for a fast break and two made ORL points.
What actually happened though? It was all Isaac INSTEAD. ATL was going thru one of its offensive possessions/sets, and the ball handler got in trouble on the left wing and was getting ready to pass out and reset. Isaac absolutely bodied up the ATL player on the top of the key, the 'reset' guy. And it wasn't anything like Isaac was already on him either, he instinctively sprinted out and covered it.. a times two factor of length/athleticism and instinct.. this then forced the ball handler into a change with a risky cross-court pass.. which led to Fournier's "boxscore steal" .. which btw, Isaac sprinted down in the fast-break with Fournier to get the alley-oop.
And what's sad is ish like this was observable in his first rookie season. People were just sleeping because.. well, Idk, maybe b/c ORL was so boring and bad to appreciate the little things adding up for J.I. Don't listen to me tho, just listen to literally everything Coach Cliff has been trying to say about J.I. thru-out this year.. (hint: it's rave reviews)
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#44 » by MagicMatic » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:23 pm

Jonathan Isaac is playing better. I still don’t believe “BIG” will work in the long run. Why? Not enough floor spacing between the three of them.

From a recent article on B/R about Orlando’s starting lineup.

While they've recorded a respectable net rating of plus-3.3 in 517 total minutes this season, the Magic have been far better when they play small. This means having to bench either Gordon or Isaac, two traditional power forwards who both need to see the court, just not at the same time.

When Orlando plays Terrence Ross over Gordon, its net rating spikes to plus-6.2. When Ross plays over Isaac, it improves to plus-8.5. For now, Isaac would be best suited as the team's sixth man.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#45 » by Instincts » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:34 pm

yoyojw17 wrote:
dsg2021 wrote:You just thank God none of y'all run the FO or have any tiny bit of sway with it whatsoever. Simple. I never once, ever put J.I. in a single trade scenario, ever, period. It's as obvious as it can f'in be as to why. And I gave up defending on him for the same exact reason I wrote in my first sentence. It's just too tiring to bother with some of the people in here these days.

And the only other player in the entire roster who comes close to J.I.'s value in terms of youth/upside/untapped ceiling is AG. So no, there's no B.I.G. problem for me, either. At least not with AG and J.I. together.

BIG doesn't work because 2 of the 3 are pretty much rookies and works in progress... does not make sense. SMH. This Isaac is a totally different person from 2018... and has now started to look good with gordon... who on his own is still getting better and bamba has played... 47 games at 16 mpg and his body is still 2 years away from being NBA matured. Does BIG work NOW.... nope not really.... can they become something special when they have hit their primes... Dang right i believe they can. Either that or we can scrap and separate .... then look back and say something like "MAAAAANNNNN TOBIAS would look great next to Gordon right now".

Needless to say.... if they were already close to reaching their potentials.... blow it up. But I still believe Isaac and Bamba are scratching the surface and gordon is not close to his peak either.


Well said. Far to early, years to early for any real judgement. I maintain zero concern on Issac and AG based on there combination of traits, my only concern is with Bambas IQ and motor, but even that I am willing to give time based on high upside, unless blown away by a clear upgrade at the PG/ Wing. The team will be molded based on our talent, not some small ball archetype that is based on the warriors talent.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#46 » by Instincts » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:43 pm

MagicMatic wrote:Jonathan Isaac is playing better. I still don’t believe “BIG” will work in the long run. Why? Not enough floor spacing between the three of them.


BIG would be historic, but even two of three of BIG would be phenomenal, IG would be still be a defensive pairing the likes of which we have not seen recently in the NBA. The only tandem that even comes to mind is Green and Thompson and in my opinion IG can easily surpass that comparison. The switching and shutdown potential of the AG and Issac really is game changing, as mentioned the shooting of both must continue to improve to make this ideal.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#47 » by MagicMatic » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:51 pm

Instincts wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:Jonathan Isaac is playing better. I still don’t believe “BIG” will work in the long run. Why? Not enough floor spacing between the three of them.


BIG would be historic, but even two of three of BIG would be phenomenal, IG would be still be a defensive pairing the likes of which we have not seen recently in the NBA. The only tandem that even comes to mind is Green and Thompson and in my opinion IG can easily surpass that comparison. The switching and shutdown potential of the AG and Issac really is game changing, as mentioned the shooting of both must continue to improve to make this ideal.


True, but only really efficient if a few things happen.
Isaac switches to C, AG becomes deadly from 3, the future version of Bamba (or current Vuc) comes off the bench, and Orlando can acquire better outside scoring. A bit of a stretch.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#48 » by PrimeThyme » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:51 pm

I know that people (including myself) have had doubts about Isaac/AG playing together longterm, but our most played lineup (DJ/Evan/Isaac/AG/Vuc) has a 108 offensive and 104 defensive rating for the year. Over the last 5 games, that lineup has a +8 net rating.

Clifford is really finding a way to make it work and it will only get better as Isaac continues to improve. Bambas future with us is by far the biggest question mark at this point to me. Mostly because I can see a world where they commit to Vuc longterm and Bamba is moved. He is the most expendable out of all 3 imo.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#49 » by Tarheel » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:57 pm

PrimeThyme wrote:I know that people (including myself) have had doubts about Isaac/AG playing together longterm, but our most played lineup (DJ/Evan/Isaac/AG/Vuc) has a 108 offensive and 104 defensive rating for the year. Over the last 5 games, that lineup has a +8 net rating.

Clifford is really finding a way to make it work and it will only get better as Isaac continues to improve. Bambas future with us is by far the biggest question mark at this point to me. Mostly because I can see a world where they commit to Vuc longterm and Bamba is moved. He is the most expendable out of all 3 imo.


I agree, I don't think the FO expected Vuc to ball out like he has this season. They were put in a bind where they picked at 6 too because Mo was the no-brainer BPA. Given that Khem is a competent back-up I could see a scenario where they give Vuc a decent contract this summer and package Mo with Fournier for an upgrade on the wing.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#50 » by Knightro » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:00 pm

MagicMatic wrote:Jonathan Isaac is playing better. I still don’t believe “BIG” will work in the long run. Why? Not enough floor spacing between the three of them.


This problem, in theory, will only be exacerbated further if/when Fultz moves into the rotation in place of Augustin.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#51 » by MagicMatic » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:07 pm

Knightro wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:Jonathan Isaac is playing better. I still don’t believe “BIG” will work in the long run. Why? Not enough floor spacing between the three of them.


This problem, in theory, will only be exacerbated further if/when Fultz moves into the rotation in place of Augustin.


Correct. You simply can’t have 3-4 players on the floor lacking reliability and consistency from outside.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#52 » by yoyojw17 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:08 pm

dsg2021 wrote:
yoyojw17 wrote:
dsg2021 wrote:You just thank God none of y'all run the FO or have any tiny bit of sway with it whatsoever. Simple. I never once, ever put J.I. in a single trade scenario, ever, period. It's as obvious as it can f'in be as to why. And I gave up defending on him for the same exact reason I wrote in my first sentence. It's just too tiring to bother with some of the people in here these days.

And the only other player in the entire roster who comes close to J.I.'s value in terms of youth/upside/untapped ceiling is AG. So no, there's no B.I.G. problem for me, either. At least not with AG and J.I. together.

"BIG doesn't work because 2 of the 3 are pretty much rookies and works in progress... does not make sense." SMH. This Isaac is a totally different person from 2018... and has now started to look good with gordon... who on his own is still getting better and bamba has played... 47 games at 16 mpg and his body is still 2 years away from being NBA matured. Does BIG work NOW.... nope not really.... can they become something special when they have hit their primes... Dang right i believe they can. Either that or we can scrap and separate .... then look back and say something like "MAAAAANNNNN TOBIAS would look great next to Gordon right now".

Needless to say.... if they were already close to reaching their potentials.... blow it up. But I still believe Isaac and Bamba are scratching the surface and gordon is not close to his peak either.


I can agree and see where you're going with your post, except for one thing.. and this is why I'm in complete shock with so many people here: J.I. is ACTUALLY not very different at all from his rookie year! That's the absolutely crazy thing, that people are not seeing except for a few of us. It's all in his defense and his true impact on the floor, the kind that never touches the boxscore. So yeah, Isaac got what was it, 3 blocks and 1 steal in one possession, with a made 3 pointer in the next possession right after. Of course, something like that is what ORL is striving for with Isaac. (Nevermind that when I talked up Isaac a few weeks ago as ORL's "secret jet fighter project" no one agreed and a few disagreed..).. But take this for instance, with what I am trying to say, there was a possession not too far from that 3 blocks, 3 points one.. where Fournier steals the ball and keeps it away for a fast break and two made ORL points.
What actually happened though? It was all Isaac INSTEAD. ATL was going thru one of its offensive possessions/sets, and the ball handler got in trouble on the left wing and was getting ready to pass out and reset. Isaac absolutely bodied up the ATL player on the top of the key, the 'reset' guy. And it wasn't anything like Isaac was already on him either, he instinctively sprinted out and covered it.. a times two factor of length/athleticism and instinct.. this then forced the ball handler into a change with a risky cross-court pass.. which led to Fournier's "boxscore steal" .. which btw, Isaac sprinted down in the fast-break with Fournier to get the alley-oop.
And what's sad is ish like this was observable in his first rookie season. People were just sleeping because.. well, Idk, maybe b/c ORL was so boring and bad to appreciate the little things adding up for J.I. Don't listen to me tho, just listen to literally everything Coach Cliff has been trying to say about J.I. thru-out this year.. (hint: it's rave reviews)

Whoops.... fixed the beginning of my comment. lol that was all sarcasm.

I am not burying the notion of these 3 playing together in the future until they are closer to the summit of their abilities.... and are still proving to be incompatible. FOR ME... at their best... we will have 3 switchable players that all provide at least average enough shooting at their positions to provide all the spacing we need... especially from the front court positions.There are no guarantees as their development will be fluid and still unpredictable... till things become clearer and are solidified I would try my best to keep them together.

And this is why I want to keep vuc as well.... give bamba the time to mature physically and on the court before committing 100% to the BIG notion and all of a sudden people are pointing the finger to it Not working.

And with the addition of fultz to a team that is really starting to gel... I think that the skies the limit with the Magic even with just the acquisition of a scoring guard in the draft and a return of the same roster. Individual personnel growth will drive us to the next level.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#53 » by Instincts » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:11 pm

PrimeThyme wrote:I know that people (including myself) have had doubts about Isaac/AG playing together longterm, but our most played lineup (DJ/Evan/Isaac/AG/Vuc) has a 108 offensive and 104 defensive rating for the year. Over the last 5 games, that lineup has a +8 net rating.

Clifford is really finding a way to make it work and it will only get better as Isaac continues to improve. Bambas future with us is by far the biggest question mark at this point to me. Mostly because I can see a world where they commit to Vuc longterm and Bamba is moved. He is the most expendable out of all 3 imo.


Agreed, Bamba is the question and most expendable, but I admit I am biased in that I have always questioned his motor, hard work, and bball IQ, attributes that I so clearly see in AG and Isaac.

Yes, it only continues to improve with AG and Issac. With years of developmental runaway ahead, I believe the greatest risk is making an early or biased decision based on who the front office drafted and not seeing what they can become together. If in the end they have to be separated due to shooting efficiency, that is ok too.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#54 » by fklt » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:14 pm

it's not even a question of spacing. although that's also crucial, it can get better a bit in time. none of them have the ability to the do things with the ball. gordon is the best one, but he is not good enough to cover for all three when they share the court together. that's why even with just isaac and bamba on the floor, we play hot potato with basically zero offense. that's why clifford played gordon with the bench all the time while bamba was in the rotation.

isaac shot better, blocked some shots, and rebounded some in the last few games. but he did not become a different player. he just did what he was able to do better. that's usually how development manifests even in the best cases, players get better at what they do. they don't become different people. those different players that you need is usually just that, different players you need to go and get.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#55 » by pepe1991 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:20 pm

It's era of ballhandlers and floor spacers. Main issue with BIG is that non of them is good at playing with ball or deadly shooter.

That's basic root and main issue.
As for development, players don't really learn new skills that easy, most of them develop into better versions of themselfs. People tend to get better at shooting over time , but it's rare to see somebody who was as bad as Gordon to turn into career 40% three point shooter, and last two years ,despite major improvments, he is yet to crack league average 36% let alone anything above it.

isaac made lot of threes last 2 games but let's not act like anybody was near him when he took them, with improvments that will change.

League is still about Lebron's Curry, Giannis ,Durant , Harden type of players who take ball in their hands and deliver. That's why guy like Vučević can't be best player on great team and that's why team like 76ers and Nuggets still have ceiling in playoffs.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#56 » by MagicFan101 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:38 pm

MagicMatic wrote:Jonathan Isaac is playing better. I still don’t believe “BIG” will work in the long run. Why? Not enough floor spacing between the three of them.

From a recent article on B/R about Orlando’s starting lineup.

While they've recorded a respectable net rating of plus-3.3 in 517 total minutes this season, the Magic have been far better when they play small. This means having to bench either Gordon or Isaac, two traditional power forwards who both need to see the court, just not at the same time.

When Orlando plays Terrence Ross over Gordon, its net rating spikes to plus-6.2. When Ross plays over Isaac, it improves to plus-8.5. For now, Isaac would be best suited as the team's sixth man.


I think people are assuming too much from BIG just because we give them a nickname.

Why do we need floor spacing for them at all? The three of them are all better defenders than offensive weapons yet each can hit 3’s on occasion with growth showing.

What if we change our strategy here? If Fultz becomes the Fultz he was expected to be and we grab one of the strong wing prospects in this class, we could very likely be looking at a completely different offensive focus.

Let Fultz be the dominant ball handler. Let our new wing be the sharp shooter. Let BIG be defensive forces who gobble up put-backs and lobs on offense while hitting open shots created by double teams on our new guard duo.

Isaac and Bamba don’t strike me as guys who need to be the #1 option. I think they will settle in nicely to those roles. Gordon is the only one I worry about there.

... obviously this hinges on how Fultz develops and our ability to find a quality wing in the draft. But that is the gamble we have taken.

The strategy seems pretty clear to me. Why do you continue to focus on the alternative?
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#57 » by Skin » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:40 pm

Groooooooot!

Always maintained faith. Not sold that Clifford can get the most out of him though.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#58 » by OrlandoNed » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:45 pm

Skin wrote:Groooooooot!

Always maintained faith. Not sold that Clifford can get the most out of him though.

Stop trying to make the Groot nickname happen.

(Insert Mean Girls image)

It's never going to happen.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#59 » by MagicMatic » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:46 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:Jonathan Isaac is playing better. I still don’t believe “BIG” will work in the long run. Why? Not enough floor spacing between the three of them.

From a recent article on B/R about Orlando’s starting lineup.

While they've recorded a respectable net rating of plus-3.3 in 517 total minutes this season, the Magic have been far better when they play small. This means having to bench either Gordon or Isaac, two traditional power forwards who both need to see the court, just not at the same time.

When Orlando plays Terrence Ross over Gordon, its net rating spikes to plus-6.2. When Ross plays over Isaac, it improves to plus-8.5. For now, Isaac would be best suited as the team's sixth man.


I think people are assuming too much from BIG just because we give them a nickname.

Why do we need floor spacing for them at all? The three of them are all better defenders than offensive weapons yet each can hit 3’s on occasion with growth showing.

What if we change our strategy here? If Fultz becomes the Fultz he was expected to be and we grab one of the strong wing prospects in this class, we could very likely be looking at a completely different offensive focus.

Let Fultz be the dominant ball handler. Let our new wing be the sharp shooter. Let BIG be defensive forces who gobble up put-backs and lobs on offense while hitting open shots created by double teams on our new guard duo.

Isaac and Bamba don’t strike me as guys who need to be the #1 option. I think they will settle in nicely to those roles. Gordon is the only one I worry about there.

... obviously this hinges on how Fultz develops and our ability to find a quality wing in the draft. But that is the gamble we have taken.

The strategy seems pretty clear to me. Why do you continue to focus on the alternative?


What are you talking about?

How is bringing up the future lineup of Bamba, Isaac, and Gordon considered “focusing on the alternative”? That’s not an alternative, that’s reality.

It’s merely pointing out that the lineup with those three isn’t going to be effective as I’ve pointed out. Fultz is a complete mystery and doesn’t solve the issue of 3/5 guys on the floor ability to create offense. You know, what the Magic have struggled to do for the majority of the season...

You are asking why we need floor spacing and players with the ability to create offense? You must not watch basketball these days.

I’m happy to see Isaac progressing. Im hoping when WeHam decide to build a coherent roster, capable of competing with anyone, he’s still on it.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#60 » by Knightro » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:51 pm

Hypothetically speaking here...

Do we value Isaac or Gordon more moving forward?

Gun to the head, which one is being traded and which one is being kept?

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