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Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac

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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#81 » by bargnanimvp » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:06 pm

OrlandoNed wrote:
Skin wrote:Groooooooot!

Always maintained faith. Not sold that Clifford can get the most out of him though.

Stop trying to make the Groot nickname happen.

(Insert Mean Girls image)

It's never going to happen.

well the horrible BIG nickname still get's used, Groot is no worse than that rubbish.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#82 » by BadHombre » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:21 pm

p0peye wrote:
SOUL wrote:
p0peye wrote:So, five games is all it takes to serve crows these days?

Nothing against Isaac, but there will be bunch of feathers around here if we keep this as standard.


On the other hand, 40 or so games was all it took to call him a bust or want him traded.


Both premature, but this is exaggeration. What's next, celebrating a nice quarter? Or booting someone for missed dunk?


Yeah, they’re called game threads, lol.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#83 » by mr2good » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:59 pm

NavalAviator94 wrote:
Knightro wrote:Hypothetically speaking here...

Do we value Isaac or Gordon more moving forward?

Gun to the head, which one is being traded and which one is being kept?


Man that's tough but under that scenario I would have to pick Isaac and I'm hating that decision as I think about it. I'm picking him because of his size and ability to defend at an elite level in what I believe is the tail end of his rookie year right now.

I like Aaaron Gordon and want to see another year under coach Cliff. I look at AG as a light version of Lebron. He's learning to become a PG and over time he'll become more efficient. Lebron didn't shoot above .50% fg until his 7th season. He also didn't reach league average 3pt shooting until his 9th season, his second in Miami. He had better players around him and that was the year they also won the Championship.

AG is growing and it's clear that Coach Cliff is coaching him hard. He hasn't had that his entire career. He's now averaging 4.6 assists in the last 5 games and on the year, he is shooting slightly more efficient than he was in in previous years but clearly has room to grow. He's also our best defender and a guy who can defend all 5 positions.

Maybe I'm making the case for AG but I honestly like what the two of them could be.


This is really well said. It's something to look forward too, watching these two grow together. Rather than being forced to trade one. It's a quality problem to have but still a fun exercise. They're both still so young.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#84 » by MagicMatic » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:03 am

mr2good wrote:
NavalAviator94 wrote:
Knightro wrote:Hypothetically speaking here...

Do we value Isaac or Gordon more moving forward?

Gun to the head, which one is being traded and which one is being kept?


Man that's tough but under that scenario I would have to pick Isaac and I'm hating that decision as I think about it. I'm picking him because of his size and ability to defend at an elite level in what I believe is the tail end of his rookie year right now.

I like Aaaron Gordon and want to see another year under coach Cliff. I look at AG as a light version of Lebron. He's learning to become a PG and over time he'll become more efficient. Lebron didn't shoot above .50% fg until his 7th season. He also didn't reach league average 3pt shooting until his 9th season, his second in Miami. He had better players around him and that was the year they also won the Championship.

AG is growing and it's clear that Coach Cliff is coaching him hard. He hasn't had that his entire career. He's now averaging 4.6 assists in the last 5 games and on the year, he is shooting slightly more efficient than he was in in previous years but clearly has room to grow. He's also our best defender and a guy who can defend all 5 positions.

Maybe I'm making the case for AG but I honestly like what the two of them could be.


This is really well said. It's something to look forward too, watching these two grow together. Rather than being forced to trade one. It's a quality problem to have but still a fun exercise. They're both still so young.


Yes, but there are more issues to be solved (and can be) with the roster, rather than having a surplus of power forwards that have similar skill sets and drawbacks to their games. People can be optimistic about AG and JI individually. However, it’s unlikely they will be together for the future if management are looking at any kind of metric regarding offensive production when paired.

Then again, this could all hinge on what happens with Vuc and Bamba, who knows.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#85 » by PrimeThyme » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:42 am

MagicMatic wrote:
mr2good wrote:
NavalAviator94 wrote:
Man that's tough but under that scenario I would have to pick Isaac and I'm hating that decision as I think about it. I'm picking him because of his size and ability to defend at an elite level in what I believe is the tail end of his rookie year right now.

I like Aaaron Gordon and want to see another year under coach Cliff. I look at AG as a light version of Lebron. He's learning to become a PG and over time he'll become more efficient. Lebron didn't shoot above .50% fg until his 7th season. He also didn't reach league average 3pt shooting until his 9th season, his second in Miami. He had better players around him and that was the year they also won the Championship.

AG is growing and it's clear that Coach Cliff is coaching him hard. He hasn't had that his entire career. He's now averaging 4.6 assists in the last 5 games and on the year, he is shooting slightly more efficient than he was in in previous years but clearly has room to grow. He's also our best defender and a guy who can defend all 5 positions.

Maybe I'm making the case for AG but I honestly like what the two of them could be.


This is really well said. It's something to look forward too, watching these two grow together. Rather than being forced to trade one. It's a quality problem to have but still a fun exercise. They're both still so young.


Yes, but there are more issues to be solved (and can be) with the roster, rather than having a surplus of power forwards that have similar skill sets and drawbacks to their games. People can be optimistic about AG and JI individually. However, it’s unlikely they will be together for the future if management are looking at any kind of metric regarding offensive production when paired.

Then again, this could all hinge on what happens with Vuc and Bamba, who knows.

I'm not sure man. I've thought this as well but Clifford has actually been able to make it work. I posted the numbers earlier but the most played AG/Isaac lineup has like a plus 4 net rating for the year and up to a plus 8 over the last 5 games. I would not write it off just yet.

If they decide to resign Vuc/Ross and target a SG in the draft I think you could see some really solid returns from that pairing. If Fultz comes back healthy that could take it to a whole nother level as well since imo an elite playmaker is what both of them would thrive next to. I don't see management or the coaching staff giving up on playing them together just yet and I really don't think they should.

BIG is a whole different question though. I can't see those 3 all having success on the court together for at least 2 years considering how raw Bamba is. Even though Weham is very patient, I think they would like to be competitive sooner rather than later.

Considering Vuc is an all-star and a guy they love, I really could see them trading Bamba within the next year for an upgrade at SG. Im pretty iffy overall on us ever seeing BIG play together at this point.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#86 » by Viper1500 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:51 am

Half the people posting on this thread wanted to trade him just a couple weeks ago for DSJ.


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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#87 » by MagicMatic » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:00 am

PrimeThyme wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
mr2good wrote:
This is really well said. It's something to look forward too, watching these two grow together. Rather than being forced to trade one. It's a quality problem to have but still a fun exercise. They're both still so young.


Yes, but there are more issues to be solved (and can be) with the roster, rather than having a surplus of power forwards that have similar skill sets and drawbacks to their games. People can be optimistic about AG and JI individually. However, it’s unlikely they will be together for the future if management are looking at any kind of metric regarding offensive production when paired.

Then again, this could all hinge on what happens with Vuc and Bamba, who knows.

I'm not sure man. I've thought this as well but Clifford has actually been able to make it work. I posted the numbers earlier but the most played AG/Isaac lineup has like a plus 4 net rating for the year and up to a plus 8 over the last 5 games. I would not write it off just yet.

If they decide to resign Vuc/Ross and target a SG in the draft I think you could see some really solid returns from that pairing. If Fultz comes back healthy that could take it to a whole nother level as well since imo an elite playmaker is what both of them would thrive next to. I don't see management or the coaching staff giving up on playing them together just yet and I really don't think they should.

BIG is a whole different question though. I can't see those 3 all having success on the court together for at least 2 years considering how raw Bamba is. Even though Weham is very patient, I think they would like to be competitive sooner rather than later.

Considering Vuc is an all-star and a guy they love, I really could see them trading Bamba within the next year for an upgrade at SG. Im pretty iffy overall on us ever seeing BIG play together at this point.


We will see. There are a lot of “what if’s” still with this roster. Fultz is a mystery. Ross is a 6th man that adds so much offensively when he steps on the court for Orlando. Upgrades at both guard positions need to take place for an AG/JI tandem, even moreso than what Orlando currently has on the roster.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#88 » by J the Drafter » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:44 am

First off, I don’t how people can look at any of BIG and think they won’t be at least adequate shooters. Second, producing offense isn’t all about shooting; cutting and screening are also elements of off-ball scoring. See here for a better understanding of what I’m saying.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#89 » by NavalAviator94 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:46 am

J the Drafter wrote:First off, I don’t how people can look at any of BIG and think they won’t be at least adequate shooters. Second, producing offense isn’t all about shooting; cutting and screening are also elements of off-ball scoring. See here for a better understanding of what I’m saying.


Wow, did not know this.


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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#90 » by pepe1991 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:07 am

Instincts wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:It's era of ballhandlers and floor spacers. Main issue with BIG is that non of them is good at playing with ball or deadly shooter.

That's basic root and main issue.
As for development, players don't really learn new skills that easy, most of them develop into better versions of themselfs. People tend to get better at shooting over time , but it's rare to see somebody who was as bad as Gordon to turn into career 40% three point shooter, and last two years ,despite major improvments, he is yet to crack league average 36% let alone anything above it.

isaac made lot of threes last 2 games but let's not act like anybody was near him when he took them, with improvments that will change.

League is still about Lebron's Curry, Giannis ,Durant , Harden type of players who take ball in their hands and deliver. That's why guy like Vučević can't be best player on great team and that's why team like 76ers and Nuggets still have ceiling in playoffs.


Fair points and while I dont completely disagree there are a few reasons I can not reach a conclusion. Firstly, ballhandlers and floor spacers (small ball) is based on talent of certain players on certain teams i.e. Harden, Curry etc. Of course lesser teams try to emulate to a lesser degree of success. It is not so much that I am advocating a counter trend roster construction plan, though I do believe that that thought may have some validity as a strategy, but more so that trends are developed based on the talented players at the time and that we should mold our strategy around our young talent, not force to fit a small ball trend based on other teams rosters and talent.

Secondly, though I know you will fairly combat with shooting stats, but in my opinion people have continually under estimated AG's development curve. I know you have seen the both continual but sudden improvement in both his driving ability and play making ability. See examples below just in the last few games, he now is flashing the left hand finish on his drive that he has been missing, and the fancy dribbling is now with purpose of pausing the defender and resulting in lanes to the basket or dump offs to the open big. And as you say above, paraphrase, "it is rare to see somebody improve at such and such rate", the fact is AG continues to improve across the board with no signs of a ceiling yet, other than possibly 3pt shooting percentage. How does his continued across the board improvement factor into your equation which above only touches on shooting percentage. AG is proving he is a winning five tool basketball player, a stand up teammate and person, and I for one am willing to see it through. I think Isaac is on a similar curve. I concede the shooting must continue to improve for both, but the shooting is only one aspect and an over simplification of the equation of whether the pairing can work long term. The factor of the defensive impact of the pairing also should not be under estimated.


See 6:50 mark - improved left hand drive


:10 mark - play making
:50 drive
1:08 drive



Flashes and delivery on daily bases are two separated things. You see nonathletic white guys serving facial dunks from time to time, but that doesn't make them Jordan-like dunkers or driviers. Same with Gordon and his ability to drive. Sometimes.

Now let's look how Gordon stacks up with rest of the league with driving skills, for this i used only forwards and minimum required PT of 15 mpg ( to remove scrubs and inflated numbers based on few attemps):

Aaron Gordon scores 3,2 points per game on drives. That puts him around 33# in that category, same as Jabari Parker, Rudy Gay and Kevin Knox.
Kawhi Leonard is, for example averaging 10,1 point from drive, Giannis, Lebron, Griffin, Luka Doncic, Kevin Durant, Ingram , George , Harris and Siakam are averaging all twice as many points from drives than him. So as you can see there are rookie, somphmore and third year player already beating him, 5th year player by double in that skill.

His points percentage from drives is 54%. That puts him in same category as Thad Young ,Powell , Joe Harris, being ranked around 75-80 among around 150 players that made this list ( list is bit odd i have to say , it includes some centers but not all of them , but it's official nba tracking data from nba.com so i can't do much about it. At least it's reliable).

How many times he drives at rim?
6,1 per game.
That't not small sample size but that's also not a lot. And it has nothing to do with athletics ( joe Ingless 10, Doncic second highest in whole league ). It's tied with ability to drive mostly due ballhandling through traffic. So you see Giannis, Doncic, James,George, Griffin, Durant do it a lot more because they simply can. Gordon drives as much as Ariza and Bojan Bogdanovic ( who i know for fact spent 2 summers on working at nothing but ballhandling since he entered nba with terrible handles , to make a point for you. improved a lot at age of 26-28 ).

Now assists from drives that you pointed.

0,6 assits per game. Copy past identical as Andrew Wiggins and Trevor Ariza. Not much of a passers that guys are ,arent't they? Matter of fact idential as Tobias Harris who is still knocked down for lack of passing around this forum.


And lastly how effective he is. He is averaging 46,6% FG when he drives. Do you know who is second Magic player who is averaging 46,6% when he drives, passes more frequentlly, has twice as much assists from drives and in general and drives more ?
Spoiler:
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Evan is actually player who keeps ball in his hands, per possession less than Gordon ( another example why eye test is fail test ).

And that's the problem in general when you use game and eye test and 1 game to determine your point. It has value of eye test, zero objectivity ( not calling you subjective, it's just not quantifiable or worth anything when you have nothing to compare it with ).

There is good reason why Andrew Wiggins is most hated nba player nowdays, that reason is simple- advance stats. People now view him as what he is - overrated, onedimensional chucker. But if he played in 2000s era he would be superstar like many others onedimensional mid range chuckers were because that's what league was in that period.

Aaron did improve a lot since we saw him for first time , 5 years ago but using passing and driving to say " no signs of ceiling" is pretty bad thing to say since is painfully average at that skills.

In general assists are pretty overrated stat nowdays because if player A passes ball to player B and he usses 3 dribbles and shoots from outside player A will still get assist. In same time guy can have perfect pass for C but he gets hacked for 2 FTs and player won't get assists despite making almost all the work. In general most basic stats in nba nowdays are overrated due inflatation of possessions and 3 ball shooting. I mean Russell Westbrook , 20,30 years from now will be viewed as that amazing super talent like we view Oscar now who averaged triple double for 3 years in a row. In reality... yea, not so much great. Not even best player on own team.

I get that going through some advance stats is boring. Statistic is boring in general. At my college we had professor who was ready to retire and needed his replacement. Nice salary, college,safe job ... among 500 of us literally nobody wanted to pick statistic as course and graduate it. Nobody :rofl:

And my whole point wasn't even about Gordon, but BIG as unit ,where they flat out lack perimeter skills and non of them is that dominating wing that will take guy off dribble, go at rim and dunk at end of a game, or , if team gives him too much space , make 3 threes in a row to freeze a game. And nowdays you simply have to have that unusual, extra talent to compete . Every contender has one of that guys who is super-duper megastar. Non of BIG is that, at least they don't look they will ever be that. Banking on Gordon's improvment to reach that level is simply unfair to him.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#91 » by BadHombre » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:08 am

pepe1991 wrote:Flashes and delivery on daily bases are two separated things. You see nonathletic white guys serving facial dunks from time to time, but that doesn't make them Jordan-like dunkers or driviers. Same with Gordon and his ability to drive. Sometimes.

Now let's look how Gordon stacks up with rest of the league with driving skills, for this i used only forwards and minimum required PT of 15 mpg ( to remove scrubs and inflated numbers based on few attemps):

Aaron Gordon scores 3,2 points per game on drives. That puts him around 33# in that category, same as Jabari Parker, Rudy Gay and Kevin Knox.
Kawhi Leonard is, for example averaging 10,1 point from drive, Giannis, Lebron, Griffin, Luka Doncic, Kevin Durant, Ingram , George , Harris and Siakam are averaging all twice as many points from drives than him. So as you can see there are rookie, somphmore and third year player already beating him, 5th year player by double in that skill.

His points percentage from drives is 54%. That puts him in same category as Thad Young ,Powell , Joe Harris, being ranked around 75-80 among around 150 players that made this list ( list is bit odd i have to say , it includes some centers but not all of them , but it's official nba tracking data from nba.com so i can't do much about it. At least it's reliable).

How many times he drives at rim?
6,1 per game.
That't not small sample size but that's also not a lot.


Aaron Gordon at 23:
6.2 drives per game
3.4 ppg on drives
46.4% FG% on drives
1 FTA
55.2 PTS% on drives
0.6 ASTs

Kawhi Leonard at 23:
6.5 drives per game
3.3 ppg on drives
47.6% FG% on drives
1.1 FTAs
50.4% PTS% on drives
0.5 ASTs

Paul George at 23:
7.6 drives per game
4.5 ppg on drives
44.7% FG% on drives
1.6 FTAs
58.6% PTS% on drives
0.6 ASTs

Tobias Harris at 23 (on Detroit):
6.9 drives per game
5.1 ppg on drives
44.1% FG% on drives
1.3 FTAs
74.7% PTS% on drives
0.3 ASTs

Blake Griffin at 24 (drives data doesn't cover his age 23 season)
2.3 drives per game
1.7 ppg on drives
52.6% FG% on drives
0.9 FTAs
75.4% PTS% on drives
0.1 ASTs

*note: Griffin didn't average over 4 drives per game until last season, when his usage on drives jumped up to 7.9dpg. He was 28 then.

Jimmy Butler at 25 (I cranked this up to an age where he was actually seeing higher usage):
6.6 drives per game
3.9 ppg on drives
41.8% FG% on drives
2.1 FTAs
59.2% PTS% on drives
0.8 ASTs

Pascal Siakam at 23 (he's older than Gordon 8) ):
3.1 drives per game
1.7 ppg on drives
51.3% FG% on drives
0.1 FTAs
54.2% PTS% on drives


Looks like he's right in the thick of those names with his numbers for when they were his age. Of course, there are some players who are exceptional and much more advanced than Gordon at a younger age, but as you can see with each of those players above, their driving games are much more advanced in usage and efficiency today than where they were at 23.

PTS% doesn't seem like a great statistic to me either. It's basically a measure of how many times you're looking to score when you drive. Jeff Green, TJ Warren, Marcus Morris, all rank highly because they look to shoot every time they drive (on both high and low usage levels). But, if that's a measure you value, it's worth noting that Gordon currently ranks higher than names like Butler, Tatum, Ben Simmons, Middleton, Doncic, Fournier, Parker, Josh Richardson, Hayward and a bunch of other names.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#92 » by pepe1991 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:57 am

Aaaron Gordon is 23 but he is playing 5th nba season with latheral improvments in last two and half years.

Guy from your list after 5 yeras of nba were:

Kawhi Leonard -DPOY , finals MVP by age 23. During 5th year 21 ppg player ,DPOY candidate and allstar.
Paul George- by age of 23 two time allstar, best player on ECF team . In fifth season broke leg missed whole season ,returned.
Blake Griffin - by age of 23 three time allstar, ROY. By 5th season 5 times allstar ,even was top 5 in MVP race once.
Jimmy Butler- prior turning 23 years old, he played 350 min total in nba (late pick, on playoff team, we all know how it went). By 5th season he was 2 time allstar.
Pascal Siakam is older than Gordon. For whole year actually. But he is 3rd year player and looks to be favorite to win MIP. With some incredible advanced stats like 62,4% TS ( Gordon never had over 54%) . Also Raptors are 12.8 points per 100 possessions better when he's on the court as compared to when he sits, and he's up to No. 24 in RPM. Guy is flat out great role player.

Now i left Harris out of it because his development is best example of steady improvement. However, despite massive improvments he is stll viewed as complimentary peace ,that's why he was involved in so many trades.
Harris, much like Gordon, never won any individual achivment to this date.

So what is Gordon after 5 years:
allstar- no
breakout statr- no
dpoy candidate -no
some swiss knife all around master- not really
shooter- no
rim protector- no
scorer- no

Guy is definition of complimentary peace. He'll look good on one team, medicore on other, super usefull on third, bench player on 4th because that's what role players do. Their production is depended on production of other players around them and position where his coach will put them and how he will be used. That's why last playing SF he looked like garbage year and half ago, year ago under Vogel he was brickshooter, this year he is used better so he is bit more effective, but guy simply does not impact a game like stars do . Never did, probably never will.

His lack of impact is best viewed in real plus minus numbers. He is 28th among PFs.
ESPN's stats reveal his complete lack of efficency as well, ranking him 52# among 63 PFs by TS%, despite improved 3%.
Despite PER being throway data, and most of time counting stats data, being 33# at your position isn't great.
Even by Estimated wins added ( who is new data, used 10 yeras ago for first time ) he is 17 # among PFs.

There are some backups ( Sabonis, Harrell ) and some low key nemes (Thad Young, Mirotić) and some youngers ( Collins, Jackson jr) who impact game more than him.
That doesn't mean he is bad player, not at all, but you can't use "23 years old" every time to deflact his lack of impact and compare him to nowdays stars who entered league being 2,3 years older than he was as rookie. Big factor is experience, he is 5th year nba player. Most stars by 5th year are already stars and even award winners. Gordon is non of that. For years he is high usage role player on bad team that can't even outshine rest of a own roster, let alone somebody outside his own team. Even today, when Vuc is allstar ( by default, because team has to play through him ) he is so damn far away from Vuc's impact on a game, let alone impact that some stars like George and Leonard had when they were 23 ( or when they played 5th season ).

Since this is Isaac thread i would like to wrap up whole thing pointing that last 2 games of Isaac, he was more impacful than Gordon has ever been because he played both sides of the floor. Now it's just two games and this thread is silly for what it stands,after 2 games, but if Isaac can be Pascal Siakam- type player on both ends, it will probably mean he'll surpass Gordon soon.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#93 » by BadHombre » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:49 am

pepe1991 wrote:Aaaron Gordon is 23 but he is playing 5th nba season with latheral improvments in last two and half years.

Guy from your list after 5 yeras of nba were:

Kawhi Leonard -DPOY , finals MVP by age 23. During 5th year 21 ppg player ,DPOY candidate and allstar.
Paul George- by age of 23 two time allstar, best player on ECF team . In fifth season broke leg missed whole season ,returned.
Blake Griffin - by age of 23 three time allstar, ROY. By 5th season 5 times allstar ,even was top 5 in MVP race once.
Jimmy Butler- prior turning 23 years old, he played 350 min total in nba (late pick, on playoff team, we all know how it went). By 5th season he was 2 time allstar.
Pascal Siakam is older than Gordon. For whole year actually. But he is 3rd year player and looks to be favorite to win MIP. With some incredible advanced stats like 62,4% TS ( Gordon never had over 54%) . Also Raptors are 12.8 points per 100 possessions better when he's on the court as compared to when he sits, and he's up to No. 24 in RPM. Guy is flat out great role player.

Now i left Harris out of it because his development is best example of steady improvement. However, despite massive improvments he is stll viewed as complimentary peace ,that's why he was involved in so many trades.
Harris, much like Gordon, never won any individual achivment to this date.

So what is Gordon after 5 years:
allstar- no
breakout statr- no
dpoy candidate -no
some swiss knife all around master- not really
shooter- no
rim protector- no
scorer- no


Yeah, but none of those distinctions have any correlation to the discussion about Gordon's driving capabilities and where he's at in his career. Titles like MVP/DPOTY/All Star aren't a metric, they're just popularity contest results.

Why is the discussion changing? I thought we were talking about how Gordon is doing with his driving?

Now, the Kawhi and George comparisons aren't the levels we should expect Gordon to hit, but they help define the spectrum, and they give us something to measure against. As far as drives go, Kawhi's driving game has consistently trended up since age 22 (youngest we have data for him).

22 - 3.8 dpg, 1.5fgas, 48%fg, 1.8ppg
23 - 6.5 dpg, 2.3fgas, 47.6%fg, 3.3ppg
24 - 7.5 dpg, 3.1fgas, 53.8%fg, 4.4ppg
25 - 11.3 dpg, 4.2fgas, 45.5%fg, 5.7ppg
27 - 14.1 dpg, 6.4fgas, 56.7%fg, 10.3ppg

Gordon over the past 3 years:
21 - 3.5 dpg, 1.7fgas, 39.6%fg, 2ppg
22 - 5.2 dpg, 2.5fgas, 37.9%fg, 2.8ppg
23 - 6.2 dpg, 2.7fgas, 46.4%fg, 3.4ppg

Gordon's driving game is also trending up, on a corresponding timeline. George's numbers are different, he more or less averaged 7.5dpg with fluctuating efficiency for his time in Indiana, but has since seen more driving opportunities in OKC (with poor efficiency last year and good efficiency this year). So it's important to note the development and improvement of Gordon on this front, as it changes the entire dynamic of his game from being a Thad Young garbage points guy, to a versatile offensive option.


Now, it's probably also worth addressing age v experience.

Age is the primary factor to monitor, to me, because experience comes with age. Most of these players have been playing in organised and pseudo-professional situations throughout high school, and a lot of Europeans are actually playing professional paid basketball from their early teens. Despite that, players still find a way to develop at differing rates, even amongst the elite.

Yes, you've got the advanced elite, like LeBron/Durant/Simmons/Tatum/Mitchell/Doncic/etc who can enter the league and make an impact at a young age, and continue to develop. But for a lot of players, they begin their prime ascent anywhere from 22-25, up until 27-28 when they hit their peak prime. The prime ascent is marked by increased role, usage and efficiency and usually begins once a player's body and general skill have caught up to league standards. Their peak prime is when their games become their most efficient and complete versions of themselves.

But not all development is created equal, either. Jumping from college to the pros as a raw rookie who will spend most of their time on the bench may be beneficial to some in regards to having access to top level coaches and trainers, but for others, having more time in college as a focal point can provide them a more risk free environment to try to expand their game and learn to do so on the big stage. There's no point being a practice champion if you don't get enough reps in the spotlight to know how to handle the pressure.

Gordon is entering his prime ascent right now. The game is slowing down for him, his decision making is getting better, his skills are becoming more reliable, and his role/capability/impact is steadily increasing as a result. He probably won't ever be a league leading star, but there's no reason he can't be a #3 option on a contender who can shoot/drive/pass/defend as long as his performances continue to trend upwards each season the way they have been.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#94 » by MagicMatic » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:23 pm

The point in bringing any of this up is that -

AG is trending upward each season and doing better.

JI is doing great and trending upwards in development.

They are both probably better playing next to a C and surrounded by shooters. I’m talking about this not only from a team perspective, but individually as well. Either JI or AG would be more effective and the team would be better offensively. It’s not that complicated.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#95 » by fendilim » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:40 pm

BadHombre wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Aaaron Gordon is 23 but he is playing 5th nba season with latheral improvments in last two and half years.

Guy from your list after 5 yeras of nba were:

Kawhi Leonard -DPOY , finals MVP by age 23. During 5th year 21 ppg player ,DPOY candidate and allstar.
Paul George- by age of 23 two time allstar, best player on ECF team . In fifth season broke leg missed whole season ,returned.
Blake Griffin - by age of 23 three time allstar, ROY. By 5th season 5 times allstar ,even was top 5 in MVP race once.
Jimmy Butler- prior turning 23 years old, he played 350 min total in nba (late pick, on playoff team, we all know how it went). By 5th season he was 2 time allstar.
Pascal Siakam is older than Gordon. For whole year actually. But he is 3rd year player and looks to be favorite to win MIP. With some incredible advanced stats like 62,4% TS ( Gordon never had over 54%) . Also Raptors are 12.8 points per 100 possessions better when he's on the court as compared to when he sits, and he's up to No. 24 in RPM. Guy is flat out great role player.

Now i left Harris out of it because his development is best example of steady improvement. However, despite massive improvments he is stll viewed as complimentary peace ,that's why he was involved in so many trades.
Harris, much like Gordon, never won any individual achivment to this date.

So what is Gordon after 5 years:
allstar- no
breakout statr- no
dpoy candidate -no
some swiss knife all around master- not really
shooter- no
rim protector- no
scorer- no


Yeah, but none of those distinctions have any correlation to the discussion about Gordon's driving capabilities and where he's at in his career. Titles like MVP/DPOTY/All Star aren't a metric, they're just popularity contest results.

Why is the discussion changing? I thought we were talking about how Gordon is doing with his driving?

Now, the Kawhi and George comparisons aren't the levels we should expect Gordon to hit, but they help define the spectrum, and they give us something to measure against. As far as drives go, Kawhi's driving game has consistently trended up since age 22 (youngest we have data for him).

22 - 3.8 dpg, 1.5fgas, 48%fg, 1.8ppg
23 - 6.5 dpg, 2.3fgas, 47.6%fg, 3.3ppg
24 - 7.5 dpg, 3.1fgas, 53.8%fg, 4.4ppg
25 - 11.3 dpg, 4.2fgas, 45.5%fg, 5.7ppg
27 - 14.1 dpg, 6.4fgas, 56.7%fg, 10.3ppg

Gordon over the past 3 years:
21 - 3.5 dpg, 1.7fgas, 39.6%fg, 2ppg
22 - 5.2 dpg, 2.5fgas, 37.9%fg, 2.8ppg
23 - 6.2 dpg, 2.7fgas, 46.4%fg, 3.4ppg

Gordon's driving game is also trending up, on a corresponding timeline. George's numbers are different, he more or less averaged 7.5dpg with fluctuating efficiency for his time in Indiana, but has since seen more driving opportunities in OKC (with poor efficiency last year and good efficiency this year). So it's important to note the development and improvement of Gordon on this front, as it changes the entire dynamic of his game from being a Thad Young garbage points guy, to a versatile offensive option.


Now, it's probably also worth addressing age v experience.

Age is the primary factor to monitor, to me, because experience comes with age. Most of these players have been playing in organised and pseudo-professional situations throughout high school, and a lot of Europeans are actually playing professional paid basketball from their early teens. Despite that, players still find a way to develop at differing rates, even amongst the elite.

Yes, you've got the advanced elite, like LeBron/Durant/Simmons/Tatum/Mitchell/Doncic/etc who can enter the league and make an impact at a young age, and continue to develop. But for a lot of players, they begin their prime ascent anywhere from 22-25, up until 27-28 when they hit their peak prime. The prime ascent is marked by increased role, usage and efficiency and usually begins once a player's body and general skill have caught up to league standards. Their peak prime is when their games become their most efficient and complete versions of themselves.

But not all development is created equal, either. Jumping from college to the pros as a raw rookie who will spend most of their time on the bench may be beneficial to some in regards to having access to top level coaches and trainers, but for others, having more time in college as a focal point can provide them a more risk free environment to try to expand their game and learn to do so on the big stage. There's no point being a practice champion if you don't get enough reps in the spotlight to know how to handle the pressure.

Gordon is entering his prime ascent right now. The game is slowing down for him, his decision making is getting better, his skills are becoming more reliable, and his role/capability/impact is steadily increasing as a result. He probably won't ever be a league leading star, but there's no reason he can't be a #3 option on a contender who can shoot/drive/pass/defend as long as his performances continue to trend upwards each season the way they have been.

Age is a primary factor you say. But people dont talk about potential when they talk about Kuzma or Mikail Bridges (for example), both of whom are +/- 1 the same age as AG. The “potential” tag on AG has stuck with him since his rookie contract.

People frown upon Wiggins, Parker, Exum, Randle’s potential, who is the same batch as Gordon. No one talks about potential anymore when talking about those guys. And we’re still talking about potential with Gordon??!

Lebron/Durant/Doncic etc have shown flashes even during their rookie year.. even guys like Mitchell, Kawhi, Paul George grew into their role early in their career. Yet, this is the 3rd year we have handed Gordon the top 3 usage on this team, and we’re still talking about potential??


There was a thread about Gordon breaking out as a star one season ago ( viewtopic.php?t=1610984&start=180 ). Until now we’re still waiting for him to breakout...

This is why I think its time to move on from Gordon and see what we have in Isaac. The guy has been playing with a purpose the past few games, if he can continue playing this way, he may end up being already better than him next year. He isnt as flashy as Gordon, but he may end up being more effective.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#96 » by pepe1991 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:40 pm

Yeah, but none of those distinctions have any correlation to the discussion about Gordon's driving capabilities and where he's at in his career. Titles like MVP/DPOTY/All Star aren't a metric, they're just popularity contest results.

Not really? most votes for awards come from players and coaches apart from starting lineups of allstar game. Even after starters, coaches and players pick others.
Problem is that Gordon has zero star quality to drive interest or attention from coaches, players or fans to get voted in.

Why is the discussion changing? I thought we were talking about how Gordon is doing with his driving?

it doesn't .It's just that one skills is being isolated, that he is improved on and used as measuring stick of his development. In mean time his points are down, his rebounding percentage is down and his actual impact ( OBPM for example) is virtually identical, from zero point zero to minus zero point one. And his TS% despite improved driving is "improved" by 0,07%.

Whole Kawhi and his driving game needs some narrative.
Kawhi at age of 23 had worst TS% in his career, and yet, it was still 3% greater than Gordon's career high.
Kawhi Leonard every year had over 4,3 ( career lowest), Aaron Gordon in his career never had BPM over 0,8 ( career high).
If Kawhi Leonard never improved at anything pass 23 he would still be much better basketball player than Gordon is now because at wery worst he was elite defender and spot up shooter.

And now most important thing:
drives per team .

This is such an unfair thing to do. Pick up player's drives from 2014-15 ( Leonard, Goerge) and use Gordon's 2018-19 stats as measuring stick.
Toronto Raptos in 2018-19 are driving at rim 56 times per game.
San Antonio Spurs in 2014-15 were driving at rim 41 times.

More obvious example are George led teams
in 2014-15 George's Indiana players were driving at rim only 28,9 times per game.
Oklahoma this year drives 44 times per game.

So as you can see huge difference in total numbers. Yet almost no co-relation in wins between drives and good offense. So for example, the worst driving team this year are- Warriors ( less than 28 times per game ). Second worst- Phily. (33). To make things worst, two of best ( in terms of attemps ) are Hawks and Jazz. Not great teams to say a least.

Logical explanation is that now with 3 pointers teams tend to open more driving lines ,right ? Well not so much, since Warrior and Philly are bottom of the barrell when it comes to drives, both below 33 drives per game.

Only logical explanation is that some teams are fine with staying on perimeter and using high pick&roll with cuts without ball to generate offense, where some others, due skills of guys like Giannis or Leonard still rely a lot on their individual quality to get at rim ( i assume rightfully so since both of them are strong as a bull and hard to cover ).

And in general it's still hard to pick numbers from 2013,14,15,16 or any other year in past because game changed a lot and date is getting corrupted fast . ( over 10,00 points per game at average are now ,than it was 5 years ago and teams take 9 threes per game more now than they were in 2014-15 ).

Gordon is entering his prime ascent right now. The game is slowing down for him, his decision making is getting better, his skills are becoming more reliable, and his role/capability/impact is steadily increasing as a result. He probably won't ever be a league leading star, but there's no reason he can't be a #3 option on a contender who can shoot/drive/pass/defend as long as his performances continue to trend upwards each season the way they have been.


I made this " third option on great team " analogy 3 years ago and i still stand by it. Gordon is improving, but i just don't see player that will be anything more than that. Maybe i'm wrong, maybe not, time will tell.
Over time i just got so bored and tired listening about his "Potential" when there are guys like kuzma who fans here treated as finished procuds, being same age of him. I always thought how his "potential" is way overblown and pretty much always excuse for his shortcommings. Guy is 5th year player, his ceiling is pretty clear , it's above average role player , with or without passing ,driving , shooting, scoring ,rebounding numbers going marginally up and down through seasons. He is pretty much copy past same player for 2 years. With clear problems . At least to me :dontknow:

Why nobody talks about Wiggins as future potential? Dude is same age as him? Hell, there is ingram treated as finished product, at age of 21. It's just double standards and giving player on your favorite team unlimited leeway to do something just to feel good about him as player. I saw more improvment in Randle over year than Gordon over last 2 . Nobody looks at Randle as future star. ( not saying you think Gordon is future star, but there are people on this forum who do, for years ).
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#97 » by pepe1991 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:54 pm

fendilim wrote:
BadHombre wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Aaaron Gordon is 23 but he is playing 5th nba season with latheral improvments in last two and half years.

Guy from your list after 5 yeras of nba were:

Kawhi Leonard -DPOY , finals MVP by age 23. During 5th year 21 ppg player ,DPOY candidate and allstar.
Paul George- by age of 23 two time allstar, best player on ECF team . In fifth season broke leg missed whole season ,returned.
Blake Griffin - by age of 23 three time allstar, ROY. By 5th season 5 times allstar ,even was top 5 in MVP race once.
Jimmy Butler- prior turning 23 years old, he played 350 min total in nba (late pick, on playoff team, we all know how it went). By 5th season he was 2 time allstar.
Pascal Siakam is older than Gordon. For whole year actually. But he is 3rd year player and looks to be favorite to win MIP. With some incredible advanced stats like 62,4% TS ( Gordon never had over 54%) . Also Raptors are 12.8 points per 100 possessions better when he's on the court as compared to when he sits, and he's up to No. 24 in RPM. Guy is flat out great role player.

Now i left Harris out of it because his development is best example of steady improvement. However, despite massive improvments he is stll viewed as complimentary peace ,that's why he was involved in so many trades.
Harris, much like Gordon, never won any individual achivment to this date.

So what is Gordon after 5 years:
allstar- no
breakout statr- no
dpoy candidate -no
some swiss knife all around master- not really
shooter- no
rim protector- no
scorer- no


Yeah, but none of those distinctions have any correlation to the discussion about Gordon's driving capabilities and where he's at in his career. Titles like MVP/DPOTY/All Star aren't a metric, they're just popularity contest results.

Why is the discussion changing? I thought we were talking about how Gordon is doing with his driving?

Now, the Kawhi and George comparisons aren't the levels we should expect Gordon to hit, but they help define the spectrum, and they give us something to measure against. As far as drives go, Kawhi's driving game has consistently trended up since age 22 (youngest we have data for him).

22 - 3.8 dpg, 1.5fgas, 48%fg, 1.8ppg
23 - 6.5 dpg, 2.3fgas, 47.6%fg, 3.3ppg
24 - 7.5 dpg, 3.1fgas, 53.8%fg, 4.4ppg
25 - 11.3 dpg, 4.2fgas, 45.5%fg, 5.7ppg
27 - 14.1 dpg, 6.4fgas, 56.7%fg, 10.3ppg

Gordon over the past 3 years:
21 - 3.5 dpg, 1.7fgas, 39.6%fg, 2ppg
22 - 5.2 dpg, 2.5fgas, 37.9%fg, 2.8ppg
23 - 6.2 dpg, 2.7fgas, 46.4%fg, 3.4ppg

Gordon's driving game is also trending up, on a corresponding timeline. George's numbers are different, he more or less averaged 7.5dpg with fluctuating efficiency for his time in Indiana, but has since seen more driving opportunities in OKC (with poor efficiency last year and good efficiency this year). So it's important to note the development and improvement of Gordon on this front, as it changes the entire dynamic of his game from being a Thad Young garbage points guy, to a versatile offensive option.


Now, it's probably also worth addressing age v experience.

Age is the primary factor to monitor, to me, because experience comes with age. Most of these players have been playing in organised and pseudo-professional situations throughout high school, and a lot of Europeans are actually playing professional paid basketball from their early teens. Despite that, players still find a way to develop at differing rates, even amongst the elite.

Yes, you've got the advanced elite, like LeBron/Durant/Simmons/Tatum/Mitchell/Doncic/etc who can enter the league and make an impact at a young age, and continue to develop. But for a lot of players, they begin their prime ascent anywhere from 22-25, up until 27-28 when they hit their peak prime. The prime ascent is marked by increased role, usage and efficiency and usually begins once a player's body and general skill have caught up to league standards. Their peak prime is when their games become their most efficient and complete versions of themselves.

But not all development is created equal, either. Jumping from college to the pros as a raw rookie who will spend most of their time on the bench may be beneficial to some in regards to having access to top level coaches and trainers, but for others, having more time in college as a focal point can provide them a more risk free environment to try to expand their game and learn to do so on the big stage. There's no point being a practice champion if you don't get enough reps in the spotlight to know how to handle the pressure.

Gordon is entering his prime ascent right now. The game is slowing down for him, his decision making is getting better, his skills are becoming more reliable, and his role/capability/impact is steadily increasing as a result. He probably won't ever be a league leading star, but there's no reason he can't be a #3 option on a contender who can shoot/drive/pass/defend as long as his performances continue to trend upwards each season the way they have been.

Age is a primary factor you say. But people dont talk about potential when they talk about Kuzma or Mikail Bridges (for example), both of whom are +/- 1 the same age as AG. The “potential” tag on AG has stuck with him since his rookie contract.

People frown upon Wiggins, Parker, Exum, Randle’s potential, who is the same batch as Gordon. No one talks about potential anymore when talking about those guys. And we’re still talking about potential with Gordon??!

Lebron/Durant/Doncic etc have shown flashes even during their rookie year.. even guys like Mitchell, Kawhi, Paul George grew into their role early in their career. Yet, this is the 3rd year we have handed Gordon the top 3 usage on this team, and we’re still talking about potential??


There was a thread about Gordon breaking out as a star one season ago ( viewtopic.php?t=1610984&start=180 ). Until now we’re still waiting for him to breakout...

This is why I think its time to move on from Gordon and see what we have in Isaac. The guy has been playing with a purpose the past few games, if he can continue playing this way, he may end up being already better than him next year. He isnt as flashy as Gordon, but he may end up being more effective.


Execlly. Gordon has always been labeled as potential. Sure, you are potential when you are 20 yeras old. 21 yeras old,22 yeras old but for how many years you can be potential? As you said, entering league with Smart, Exum, Embiid, Jabari, Wiggins, non of them is any more viewed as future anything. They are what they are to us, so why we pretend that Gordon is any different? Sure , one year great player from that draft will play poorly, other year bad player will play better ,but for more or less they are what they are . Yet ,Gordon is "potential" . Potential for what? 15 ppg player on 25- 32 team ,shooting 34% for 3 as your career high in same time never having league's average TS% or any efficiency number that would make you look great. In same time not really elite defender, just marginally above average.

Just crazy... guy is highest payed player on a team that would probably look at much worst if Vučević does not exist. :crazy:

his net rating with Bamba is -14,7
Birch Gordon still negative -1,4

in general almost all Magic positive lineups include Vučević who pretty much keeps whole roster fucional.

His orginal comparison was Blake Griffin, Griffin's rookie year is still greater than his 5 combined.
Than it was Marion, Marion by 5th season averaged for two years double double and was around 20 points a game. And was second best player on 51 wins team.

Every year around this time ,for 3 years , like you said, people start to talk about his potential as future star. Every year before season ends he crashes and burns for month- month and half where he looks like garbage. Fool me once shame on you, fool me 5 years, nah i'll pass.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#98 » by OrlChamps2030 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:59 pm

Viper1500 wrote:Half the people posting on this thread wanted to trade him just a couple weeks ago for DSJ.


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I was interested in the idea of Isaac for DSJ. Don’t really see why I need to eat crow for that though.. DSJ was traded for Porzingis. I saw them both as good prospects that didn’t fit well on their teams. I knew J Simms and a 2030 2nd rounder wasn’t going to get it done like lots of posters on here wanted.

I’m happy that Isaac is showing more consistent flashes, especially on the offensive end. Never gave up on him, I’m just not as bullish on the Isaac-AG pairing as some.

Big pipe dream here but I wonder if WeltHam tries to swing for the fences with a trade package of AG+Bamba and Commits to a duo of Isaac/Vucevic
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#99 » by GatorbaitDD » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:05 pm

My concern with our core is that I do not see a roster of Fultz, Isaac, Gordon and Bamba ever winning anything. There will have to be changes to compliment our primary players. I unfortunately see Gordon as the odd man out.
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Re: Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac 

Post#100 » by NotACat » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:29 pm

OrlChamps2030 wrote:
Viper1500 wrote:Half the people posting on this thread wanted to trade him just a couple weeks ago for DSJ.


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I was interested in the idea of Isaac for DSJ. Don’t really see why I need to eat crow for that though.. DSJ was traded for Porzingis. I saw them both as good prospects that didn’t fit well on their teams. I knew J Simms and a 2030 2nd rounder wasn’t going to get it done like lots of posters on here wanted.

I’m happy that Isaac is showing more consistent flashes, especially on the offensive end. Never gave up on him, I’m just not as bullish on the Isaac-AG pairing as some.

Big pipe dream here but I wonder if WeltHam tries to swing for the fences with a trade package of AG+Bamba and Commits to a duo of Isaac/Vucevic

Lets be clear here, DSJ wasn't traded for Porzingis. DSJ + TWO first rounders + cap relief for the Knicks got them Porzingis.

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