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Regular Season Game 72: New Orleans Pelicans (31-42) at Orlando Magic (33-38)

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Re: Regular Season Game 72: New Orleans Pelicans (31-42) at Orlando Magic (33-38) 

Post#121 » by tiderulz » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:51 pm

BadHombre wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:thats what i wondered. he was the conference defensive player of they year and the college defensive player of the year.


Probably just young player on tanking team, given everything ( starter from day one ) never challenged to improve or held accountable for mistakes developed habbit of being lazy. I mean just look at his hair after year 2, you would thought somebody within that organisation or his menager would tell him to cut that crap off, but nop, took him 4 years and losing rookie extension, playing for basically vet's minimum to take a haircut.


He just needed time for development. He was a big plus for NOP to start this season when they were actually competing and before Davis have up on the team. Injuries screwed him though.

His defense was decent, even his PnR defense was good. His PnR numbers are only just behind JRue. Playing with bigs who can help him mitigate that helps, instead of trying to defend the PnR with Vuc as his the big man behind him.

His Netrtg was strong and had him in the top 30 of all starting guards over that period, too. (His DRtg not that great but his Ortg was very high).

He just needs to be on a competitive team for once. If he stays in NOP, that might not happen, and it might be a real detriment to him turning the next corner and being a winning PG.

his defense wasnt decent though. multiple stats showed it some of the worse defense in the NBA.
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Re: Regular Season Game 72: New Orleans Pelicans (31-42) at Orlando Magic (33-38) 

Post#122 » by BadHombre » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:59 am

tiderulz wrote:
BadHombre wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Probably just young player on tanking team, given everything ( starter from day one ) never challenged to improve or held accountable for mistakes developed habbit of being lazy. I mean just look at his hair after year 2, you would thought somebody within that organisation or his menager would tell him to cut that crap off, but nop, took him 4 years and losing rookie extension, playing for basically vet's minimum to take a haircut.


He just needed time for development. He was a big plus for NOP to start this season when they were actually competing and before Davis have up on the team. Injuries screwed him though.

His defense was decent, even his PnR defense was good. His PnR numbers are only just behind JRue. Playing with bigs who can help him mitigate that helps, instead of trying to defend the PnR with Vuc as his the big man behind him.

His Netrtg was strong and had him in the top 30 of all starting guards over that period, too. (His DRtg not that great but his Ortg was very high).

He just needs to be on a competitive team for once. If he stays in NOP, that might not happen, and it might be a real detriment to him turning the next corner and being a winning PG.

his defense wasnt decent though. multiple stats showed it some of the worse defense in the NBA.


At the start of this season? That's just not accurate.
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Re: Regular Season Game 72: New Orleans Pelicans (31-42) at Orlando Magic (33-38) 

Post#123 » by tiderulz » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:57 am

BadHombre wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
BadHombre wrote:
He just needed time for development. He was a big plus for NOP to start this season when they were actually competing and before Davis have up on the team. Injuries screwed him though.

His defense was decent, even his PnR defense was good. His PnR numbers are only just behind JRue. Playing with bigs who can help him mitigate that helps, instead of trying to defend the PnR with Vuc as his the big man behind him.

His Netrtg was strong and had him in the top 30 of all starting guards over that period, too. (His DRtg not that great but his Ortg was very high).

He just needs to be on a competitive team for once. If he stays in NOP, that might not happen, and it might be a real detriment to him turning the next corner and being a winning PG.

his defense wasnt decent though. multiple stats showed it some of the worse defense in the NBA.


At the start of this season? That's just not accurate.

coming out of college? his defense his first few years in the league was baddddd
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Re: Regular Season Game 72: New Orleans Pelicans (31-42) at Orlando Magic (33-38) 

Post#124 » by BadHombre » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:51 am

tiderulz wrote:
BadHombre wrote:
tiderulz wrote:his defense wasnt decent though. multiple stats showed it some of the worse defense in the NBA.


At the start of this season? That's just not accurate.

coming out of college? his defense his first few years in the league was baddddd


a) I wasn't talking about his first few years, I was talking about the start of this year.

b) his defense in his rookie and sophomore seasons was one of the best amongst our starters by DRtg. Better than Vuc, Oladipo, Harris and Fournier.

He certainly dropped off after that, but his early years were when he was actually a strong competitor on defense.

I think you need to cross check your opinion with facts.
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Re: Regular Season Game 72: New Orleans Pelicans (31-42) at Orlando Magic (33-38) 

Post#125 » by pepe1991 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:39 am

BadHombre wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
BadHombre wrote:
At the start of this season? That's just not accurate.

coming out of college? his defense his first few years in the league was baddddd


a) I wasn't talking about his first few years, I was talking about the start of this year.

b) his defense in his rookie and sophomore seasons was one of the best amongst our starters by DRtg. Better than Vuc, Oladipo, Harris and Fournier.

He certainly dropped off after that, but his early years were when he was actually a strong competitor on defense.

I think you need to cross check your opinion with facts.


fact chacking -

“He [Elfrid Payton] has conceded nearly 48 points more than an average player would have on the same number of possessions. That is worst in the league by a wide margin. It is particularly astonishing considering he has played nearly 10 fewer games than the rest of the bottom five.”

Not bad pick& roll defender, but the worst among 520 players in 2017-18.

Took Suns 1 month to figure he is not solution, even when he started hot some of their reportes pointed out his problems

Read on Twitter


In nutshell, he is PG who gets rebounds ( not so valuable) ,gets empty assists ( his teams were never good on offense or he moved needle in OFF rating ), and is huge liability as modern nba needs shooting guards ( biggest knock on some of ubertalented players like Giannis and Simmons is lack of shooting and they have 8 inches and 100 pounds on him , plus elite defense ).

Will he continue to start on Pelicans during his tanking era that is comming? Maybe, he always helps tanking, at this point his W-L record is around 117-120 Ws that come with around 220-225 or so Ls. Literally, your team with him is bound to lose 2 out of 3 games he plays ( we talk about serious, 5 years trackrecord now, with over 300 games now).

On serious team, given that he is 25, he simply isn't worth keeping around.
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Re: Regular Season Game 72: New Orleans Pelicans (31-42) at Orlando Magic (33-38) 

Post#126 » by BadHombre » Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:25 am

pepe1991 wrote:
BadHombre wrote:
tiderulz wrote:coming out of college? his defense his first few years in the league was baddddd


a) I wasn't talking about his first few years, I was talking about the start of this year.

b) his defense in his rookie and sophomore seasons was one of the best amongst our starters by DRtg. Better than Vuc, Oladipo, Harris and Fournier.

He certainly dropped off after that, but his early years were when he was actually a strong competitor on defense.

I think you need to cross check your opinion with facts.


fact chacking -

“He [Elfrid Payton] has conceded nearly 48 points more than an average player would have on the same number of possessions. That is worst in the league by a wide margin. It is particularly astonishing considering he has played nearly 10 fewer games than the rest of the bottom five.”

Not bad pick& roll defender, but the worst among 520 players in 2017-18.

Took Suns 1 month to figure he is not solution, even when he started hot some of their reportes pointed out his problems

Read on Twitter


In nutshell, he is PG who gets rebounds ( not so valuable) ,gets empty assists ( his teams were never good on offense or he moved needle in OFF rating ), and is huge liability as modern nba needs shooting guards ( biggest knock on some of ubertalented players like Giannis and Simmons is lack of shooting and they have 8 inches and 100 pounds on him , plus elite defense ).

Will he continue to start on Pelicans during his tanking era that is comming? Maybe, he always helps tanking, at this point his W-L record is around 117-120 Ws that come with around 220-225 or so Ls. Literally, your team with him is bound to lose 2 out of 3 games he plays ( we talk about serious, 5 years trackrecord now, with over 300 games now).

On serious team, given that he is 25, he simply isn't worth keeping around.


Ummm... you don't know what fact checking is. I said it pretty clear in my post:

a) I wasn't talking about his first few years, I was talking about the start of this year.


That quote, and everything you provided, was from last season. Did you 'fact checking' not pull up anything overly critical about him this season?

And also, Phoenix - LOL! They're still 2nd worst team in the league. Payton was not the problem with that team.
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Re: Regular Season Game 72: New Orleans Pelicans (31-42) at Orlando Magic (33-38) 

Post#127 » by pepe1991 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:34 am

BadHombre wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
BadHombre wrote:
a) I wasn't talking about his first few years, I was talking about the start of this year.

b) his defense in his rookie and sophomore seasons was one of the best amongst our starters by DRtg. Better than Vuc, Oladipo, Harris and Fournier.

He certainly dropped off after that, but his early years were when he was actually a strong competitor on defense.

I think you need to cross check your opinion with facts.


fact chacking -

“He [Elfrid Payton] has conceded nearly 48 points more than an average player would have on the same number of possessions. That is worst in the league by a wide margin. It is particularly astonishing considering he has played nearly 10 fewer games than the rest of the bottom five.”

Not bad pick& roll defender, but the worst among 520 players in 2017-18.

Took Suns 1 month to figure he is not solution, even when he started hot some of their reportes pointed out his problems

Read on Twitter


In nutshell, he is PG who gets rebounds ( not so valuable) ,gets empty assists ( his teams were never good on offense or he moved needle in OFF rating ), and is huge liability as modern nba needs shooting guards ( biggest knock on some of ubertalented players like Giannis and Simmons is lack of shooting and they have 8 inches and 100 pounds on him , plus elite defense ).

Will he continue to start on Pelicans during his tanking era that is comming? Maybe, he always helps tanking, at this point his W-L record is around 117-120 Ws that come with around 220-225 or so Ls. Literally, your team with him is bound to lose 2 out of 3 games he plays ( we talk about serious, 5 years trackrecord now, with over 300 games now).

On serious team, given that he is 25, he simply isn't worth keeping around.


Ummm... you don't know what fact checking is. I said it pretty clear in my post:

a) I wasn't talking about his first few years, I was talking about the start of this year.


That quote, and everything you provided, was from last season. Did you 'fact checking' not pull up anything overly critical about him this season?

And also, Phoenix - LOL! They're still 2nd worst team in the league. Payton was not the problem with that team.


Suns literally decided that having no PG is better than having Payton :rofl:


As for start of a season, what period you talk about? He played 5 games than was out until January.
He returns and they have sub .500, 6-7 record.
Out again.

Returns after they are eliminated from playoffs , they have 5-11 record with him.

So you build your case for him based on first 4 games ( got hurt on start of fifth ) . Oh btw did you know that in first 4 games Nikola Mirotić and Davis averaged 50 ppg on 20 rebounds ? And Moore was shooting like 50% for 3? Sustainable, all credit goes to Payton.

Don't be Payton defender, if only he ever put that effort on defense that his fanboys did, he would be best guard defender in history, not lazy slob that allows open line layups every game like he does on nightly bases.
Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. -John Lennon
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Re: Regular Season Game 72: New Orleans Pelicans (31-42) at Orlando Magic (33-38) 

Post#128 » by BadHombre » Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:45 am

pepe1991 wrote:
BadHombre wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
fact chacking -

“He [Elfrid Payton] has conceded nearly 48 points more than an average player would have on the same number of possessions. That is worst in the league by a wide margin. It is particularly astonishing considering he has played nearly 10 fewer games than the rest of the bottom five.”

Not bad pick& roll defender, but the worst among 520 players in 2017-18.

Took Suns 1 month to figure he is not solution, even when he started hot some of their reportes pointed out his problems

Read on Twitter


In nutshell, he is PG who gets rebounds ( not so valuable) ,gets empty assists ( his teams were never good on offense or he moved needle in OFF rating ), and is huge liability as modern nba needs shooting guards ( biggest knock on some of ubertalented players like Giannis and Simmons is lack of shooting and they have 8 inches and 100 pounds on him , plus elite defense ).

Will he continue to start on Pelicans during his tanking era that is comming? Maybe, he always helps tanking, at this point his W-L record is around 117-120 Ws that come with around 220-225 or so Ls. Literally, your team with him is bound to lose 2 out of 3 games he plays ( we talk about serious, 5 years trackrecord now, with over 300 games now).

On serious team, given that he is 25, he simply isn't worth keeping around.


Ummm... you don't know what fact checking is. I said it pretty clear in my post:

a) I wasn't talking about his first few years, I was talking about the start of this year.


That quote, and everything you provided, was from last season. Did you 'fact checking' not pull up anything overly critical about him this season?

And also, Phoenix - LOL! They're still 2nd worst team in the league. Payton was not the problem with that team.


Suns literally decided that having no PG is better than having Payton :rofl:


As for start of a season, what period you talk about? He played 5 games than was out until January.
He returns and they have sub .500, 6-7 record.
Out again.

Returns after they are eliminated from playoffs , they have 5-11 record with him.

So you build your case for him based on first 4 games ( got hurt on start of fifth ) . Oh btw did you know that in first 4 games Nikola Mirotić and Davis averaged 50 ppg on 20 rebounds ? And Moore was shooting like 50% for 3? Sustainable, all credit goes to Payton.

Don't be Payton defender, if only he ever put that effort on defense that his fanboys did, he would be best guard defender in history, not lazy slob that allows open line layups every game like he does on nightly bases.


Their record was 12-8 with Payton over that early stretch, and 11-20 without him. He had a positive impact on a team chasing the playoffs. Deal with it.
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Re: Regular Season Game 72: New Orleans Pelicans (31-42) at Orlando Magic (33-38) 

Post#129 » by pepe1991 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:46 am

BadHombre wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
BadHombre wrote:
Ummm... you don't know what fact checking is. I said it pretty clear in my post:



That quote, and everything you provided, was from last season. Did you 'fact checking' not pull up anything overly critical about him this season?

And also, Phoenix - LOL! They're still 2nd worst team in the league. Payton was not the problem with that team.


Suns literally decided that having no PG is better than having Payton :rofl:


As for start of a season, what period you talk about? He played 5 games than was out until January.
He returns and they have sub .500, 6-7 record.
Out again.

Returns after they are eliminated from playoffs , they have 5-11 record with him.

So you build your case for him based on first 4 games ( got hurt on start of fifth ) . Oh btw did you know that in first 4 games Nikola Mirotić and Davis averaged 50 ppg on 20 rebounds ? And Moore was shooting like 50% for 3? Sustainable, all credit goes to Payton.

Don't be Payton defender, if only he ever put that effort on defense that his fanboys did, he would be best guard defender in history, not lazy slob that allows open line layups every game like he does on nightly bases.


Their record was 12-8 with Payton over that early stretch, and 11-20 without him. He had a positive impact on a team chasing the playoffs. Deal with it.



Their record with Payton is 16-18 with him. Deal with facts.
And yet, you are still to explain how "good " player can have:
TS% 5 below league average for career
shoot almost 6% below league average for 3
shoot FTs below league average for career
Being proven- worst pick&roll defender in nba
How his stat boost always happend after team lost hope for playoffs

Just take and L on this and move . It's pointless. Join Swipe and Soul in parallel universe where he is good player, this ain't that world.

Image

Sorry ,normally i have more nerve and less agressive way to talk about other players, but zero with Payton, you have to be blind despite having two healthy eyes to see that boy can't play. It's simply worthless debate to talk about player who at age of 24 was offered nothing more than bit over vet's minimum . BS walks, money talks .
Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. -John Lennon
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Re: Regular Season Game 72: New Orleans Pelicans (31-42) at Orlando Magic (33-38) 

Post#130 » by BadHombre » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:14 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
BadHombre wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Suns literally decided that having no PG is better than having Payton :rofl:


As for start of a season, what period you talk about? He played 5 games than was out until January.
He returns and they have sub .500, 6-7 record.
Out again.

Returns after they are eliminated from playoffs , they have 5-11 record with him.

So you build your case for him based on first 4 games ( got hurt on start of fifth ) . Oh btw did you know that in first 4 games Nikola Mirotić and Davis averaged 50 ppg on 20 rebounds ? And Moore was shooting like 50% for 3? Sustainable, all credit goes to Payton.

Don't be Payton defender, if only he ever put that effort on defense that his fanboys did, he would be best guard defender in history, not lazy slob that allows open line layups every game like he does on nightly bases.


Their record was 12-8 with Payton over that early stretch, and 11-20 without him. He had a positive impact on a team chasing the playoffs. Deal with it.



Their record with Payton is 16-18 with him. Deal with facts.
And yet, you are still to explain how "good " player can have:
TS% 5 below league average for career
shoot almost 6% below league average for 3
shoot FTs below league average for career
Being proven- worst pick&roll defender in nba
How his stat boost always happend after team lost hope for playoffs

Just take and L on this and move . It's pointless. Join Swipe and Soul in parallel universe where he is good player, this ain't that world.

Image

Sorry ,normally i have more nerve and less agressive way to talk about other players, but zero with Payton, you have to be blind despite having two healthy eyes to see that boy can't play. It's simply worthless debate to talk about player who at age of 24 was offered nothing more than bit over vet's minimum . BS walks, money talks .


Nah, the only person who's blind is you. You're blinded by an irrational hate of Payton and many other players. In fact, you can probably count on one hand the players you speak favourably of, and those are all the most obviously talented players in the league. When it comes down to it though, you simply don't have an eye for talent or and understanding of development. Your takes on the game are either crapping all over players, because you're unable to talk about them constructively, or... Actually, that's all you do. And then you go out of your way to lie and misrepresent the truth.

Look, you already embarrassed yourself before when trying to argue with me - and let's remember, it was multiple brutal embarrassments too. You're very rarely right about anything, and it seems like most of the board is just completely over your bull these days. So give it up dude. You tried to crown yourself king of an internet forum where everyone can see you're just wearing a dunce cap.

I'd say you're better than this, but... you're not. And on top of that you're obviously a bit simple minded and can't follow a conversation. Yeesh, it's just sad man.
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Re: Regular Season Game 72: New Orleans Pelicans (31-42) at Orlando Magic (33-38) 

Post#131 » by pepe1991 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:32 pm

BadHombre wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
BadHombre wrote:
Their record was 12-8 with Payton over that early stretch, and 11-20 without him. He had a positive impact on a team chasing the playoffs. Deal with it.



Their record with Payton is 16-18 with him. Deal with facts.
And yet, you are still to explain how "good " player can have:
TS% 5 below league average for career
shoot almost 6% below league average for 3
shoot FTs below league average for career
Being proven- worst pick&roll defender in nba
How his stat boost always happend after team lost hope for playoffs

Just take and L on this and move . It's pointless. Join Swipe and Soul in parallel universe where he is good player, this ain't that world.

Image

Sorry ,normally i have more nerve and less agressive way to talk about other players, but zero with Payton, you have to be blind despite having two healthy eyes to see that boy can't play. It's simply worthless debate to talk about player who at age of 24 was offered nothing more than bit over vet's minimum . BS walks, money talks .


Nah, the only person who's blind is you. You're blinded by an irrational hate of Payton and many other players. In fact, you can probably count on one hand the players you speak favourably of, and those are all the most obviously talented players in the league. When it comes down to it though, you simply don't have an eye for talent or and understanding of development. Your takes on the game are either crapping all over players, because you're unable to talk about them constructively, or... Actually, that's all you do. And then you go out of your way to lie and misrepresent the truth.

Look, you already embarrassed yourself before when trying to argue with me - and let's remember, it was multiple brutal embarrassments too. You're very rarely right about anything, and it seems like most of the board is just completely over your bull these days. So give it up dude. You tried to crown yourself king of an internet forum where everyone can see you're just wearing a dunce cap.

I'd say you're better than this, but... you're not. And on top of that you're obviously a bit simple minded and can't follow a conversation. Yeesh, it's just sad man.



:rof:

I'm hater yet you can't debunk ANYTHING i posted in negative fashing about him, so you lie, post flat out false data ( like NOLA record with him) , duck every single data that i post how trully medicore and bad he is, ignore that he was actually THE WORST nba pick& roll defender and other measurable- valuble stuff. :roll:

Only one who embarrases himself here is you , bad you are doing continuously good job at it so go ahead :rofl:

It's just sad that you think you are so smart, yet you are Payton fan so yea... not the brightest bulb on the porch , oh well.

Image

Next time you want to reply to me, at least make one valid point that you can support with something, that will be hell of a chance for you. You can do it. I root for you :rofl:

In general my problem with you and people like you is simple:
i talk negative about player- you take it personal and talk about me.
I'll never talk nevagive about you as person because i don't know you- until you start talking about me (despite not knowing me ).
I talk about in negative fashion about Isaac- you get upset.
I talk negative about Payton- you get upset.

Dude, talk about players not about me, this is basketball forum , not Pepe forum or BadHombre forum. Stick to a subject or gtfo or at least get off me. I have zero desire to fight you. We can talk about basketball, but you show zero interest in ever doing that. I'll just block you because this is pointless.
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Re: Regular Season Game 72: New Orleans Pelicans (31-42) at Orlando Magic (33-38) 

Post#132 » by BadHombre » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:41 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
:rof:

I'm hater yet you can't debunk ANYTHING i posted in negative fashing about him, so you lie, post flat out false data ( like NOLA record with him) , duck every single data that i post how trully medicore and bad he is, ignore that he was actually THE WORST nba pick& roll defender and other measurable- valuble stuff. :roll:


I don't need to debunk anything, because you're not addressing the time frame I've been talking about. When I said a) I wasn't talking about his first few years, I was talking about the start of this year. something like 3 or 4 times now, you've responded by bringing 'facts' first from his 2 month stint in Phoenix, and now from the entire season this year. How have you not comprehended that I'm not talking about the season record with him?

Image

So once again, we're back to trying to determine if:

a) you're an idiot
b) you're a troll
c) you're trying to misrepresent the data due to item a) or b)
d) all of the above

Classic pepe.

The time frame I'm talking about is the start of the season up until the 26th of January, when his 2nd long sustaining injury happened, and when 2 days later AD requested a trade which derailed that team's entire season. Prior to that, they were still a team that played like the playoffs were a possibility.

Ok?

From the 17th of October, up to the 26th of December.

Image

As I've already shown you, the records over that time frame were 12-8 with Payton, 11-20 without him.

Oh, you're follow up 'fact', that he's the 'WORST PICK & ROLL DEFENDER'. Yeah... again, not from this season. You really struggle understanding that don't you. When I said "I'm talking about the start of this season", how did you interpret that as a discussion about his time in Phoenix? I just don't understand how you can be so dumb at comprehending such a simple thing.

But anyway, here's a link to Payton's P&R numbers this season. The dude actually has some of the strongest P&R defensive numbers in the league this season. So in his most recent season and performance, on the most competitive team he's been a part of, he posts some top defensive numbers.

These are what you call facts, and they're facts relevant to the topic at hand - a topic I outlined when I engaged in the conversation early on. The topic isn't "how did Payton perform in Phoenix". The topic isn't "how has Payton been performing since AD demanded a trade and killed any remaining motivation that team had". The topic is "how was Payton performing to at the start of this season when NOLA was still being somewhat competitive".


pepe1991 wrote:Dude, talk about players not about me, this is basketball forum , not Pepe forum or BadHombre forum. Stick to a subject or gtfo or at least get off me. I have zero desire to fight you. We can talk about basketball, but you show zero interest in ever doing that. I'll just block you because this is pointless.


Don't talk to me about etiquette on the board. You behave like a troll, so I've called you out on it. Deal with it. Or try to have a proper discussion about basketball, not one full of your strawmans, inflammatory language and other childish nonsense.

The board is quite clearly sick of your schtick bro. They know how empty most of the trash you post is. Time for you to man up and start bringing something real to the table, or gtfo.

Image
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Re: Regular Season Game 72: New Orleans Pelicans (31-42) at Orlando Magic (33-38) 

Post#133 » by pepe1991 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:36 am

When you try to control narrative yet your sample size is 4 opening games of 82 games long season.

Image Image

Just for an argument sake, i already said 4 games sample size also had:
Moore shooting like 55% for 3
Mirotić averaging 26 ppg
Mirotić and Davis averaging 55 ppg and 20 rebounds
Mirotić Randle and Davis averaging 72 ppg.

But heey, sounds logical, sustainable and good for you so sure, run with it. Just run away from me because i have zero desire to feed into your obsession to argue everybody. Especially when you are proven wrong time and time again. Before i even replyed for first time you were starting s**t with tiderulz about Payton and charry picked games.

Now it's good time to be good boy and stop embarrassing yourself because you picked fight you can't win. Elfrid Payton . Lol , just lol man. Take L and move on.
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Re: Regular Season Game 72: New Orleans Pelicans (31-42) at Orlando Magic (33-38) 

Post#134 » by BadHombre » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:49 am

pepe1991 wrote:When you try to control narrative yet your sample size is 4 opening games of 82 games long season.


Bro, why are you only talking about 4 games? Do you think he only played 4 games from October 17 through to January 26? I put it in large font, Ive got not idea how you're still this confused.

Try again.
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Re: Regular Season Game 72: New Orleans Pelicans (31-42) at Orlando Magic (33-38) 

Post#135 » by Gomagic44 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:30 am

Pepe is not a troll. I agree with many of his points. Oh this one, your delusional to defend Payton. No, I was not a fan of his after 2-3 years of the same crap he does now.

You defend him by blaming our franchise.

You defend him by blaming Phoenix.

You praise him for New Orleans success after he does the same crap against us as he did for us.

He is not a winning basketball player in today’s nba unless you surround him with 4 shooters. He is not a starter.

Years have proven this. Why you want to defend an x magician who led us to nothing and is a nothing in the league, is beyond me.

Damn you guys keep it entertaining though.


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Re: Regular Season Game 72: New Orleans Pelicans (31-42) at Orlando Magic (33-38) 

Post#136 » by SOUL » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:24 am

pepe's not a troll but he cherry picks stats but can't accept stats given back to him. That's why it's fruitless to get in a debate with him. He has never backed down from a debate because it's his opinion or the highway. I argued with him a while back in the day, butted heads, realized he wasn't that bad, but now I'm back to being annoyed by his posts because he doesn't show any other poster's respect as far as their basketball intellect and thinks he is right 100% of the time and has INSANE bias towards European players. Somewhere along the last year he flipped on criticizing every Magic player fairly to defending Vucevic or Fournier (when he was playing well) at all costs but **** on every other American player on the roster. Which is fine if you make it known ahead of time you are coming from a place that is biased. Hell, I've even said I give young players 2-3-4 years to prove themselves before I criticize them heavily, that is my bias. But from Vucevic to Harris to Oladipo to Payton to Gordon to Mario to Isaac to Bamba I've always defended heavy criticism to them their first few years until I thought it was fair to criticize them compared to what their expectations were to the team and mostly when they get their first big contract.

Hell, you notice that he can't say anything nice about Isaac despite arguing for him being traded before he started playing well? At least I haven't noticed it. If you can't give credit where credit is due, but you can argue against that player the minute they start sucking, that's a **** way to debate. I was super harsh on Vuc the previous few years because he was our highest paid player, started playing more mid-range, his rebounding slipped, and wasn't leading us anywhere, but now I can admit when the guy is just straight up beasting and is doing good things for our team, which is most games. And because at the end of a day it's a game and most of these players are actively trying to do good things.

Payton is a good PG. Nothing spectacular, nothing Augustin can't replicate with a different toolset as far as impact. Depending on the team he can be a big stats PG for a team that probably isn't winning much (post-Davis/Jrue/Mirotic Pelicans), or a 20 minute backup PG for a team trying to win and it won't kill them. Most Pelicans fans want to keep him. They liked Rondo last year and Payton is younger and can do similar things. Payton touches a nerve with people because you can make statements like this and people that didn't like him will be like "HE IS LITERALLY THE WORST PG IN THE NBA AND BELONGS IN CHINA!!1" which is not true. Secondly, I've never seen four instances of POINT GUARD DEFENSE be the reason for 5 pages of debate (2 of which is bad communication). DJ allows 5-8 baskets a game like that yet Elfrid is the "worst in the league" because of 4 plays despite stats showing he has been better this year defensively? Newsflash, we are just as terrible with DJ & Vuc's P&R defense. Whether it's the PG dying on screens or Vuc just not stepping up and contesting quick enough, there has always been issues there.

That's my issue with pepe. There is always a blatant misuse of stats that can be used to strengthen his argument but won't matter at all if used against him. Can't say "small sample size" for Payton in NO while using Payton's final month in Phoenix when he sucked as a stat barometer, and then turn around and say "he is only good/puts up triple doubles at the end of the year" when those bad stats came at the end of the year in Phoenix. It's a bunch of mismatched opinions that are hypocritical at best and a misuse of stats at worse.

And BadHombre actually likes Fournier/Vucevic/etc so it's not an issue of him liking players that pepe doesn't like. It's the use of sweeping statements that either a player is bad or good, or simply being like "Okay, you have a point here" or "Hey, you're correct about this but" .. little statements like that can go a long way in debates especially because it's never that one person is 100% right and the other is 100% wrong, but when you make the other person seem like they are, that feels disrespectful.

IIRC, pepe even admitted himself that he doesn't feel any "way" about Payton but likes to make statements sometimes to bother people that do. Also he likes to take really outlandish statements from usually just ONE poster that makes crazy statements about Payton or Gordon or Isaac and then act as if the entire board thinks that Isaac is Durant or Gordon is going to carry us to the promise land when most people on this forum I think are actually pretty realistic about the ceilings of players. Maybe less so when they have HUGE games or after big wins or winning streaks, but for better or worse, those expectations become more manageable later on.

Anyway, that's my two cents.
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Re: Regular Season Game 72: New Orleans Pelicans (31-42) at Orlando Magic (33-38) 

Post#137 » by BadHombre » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:38 am

His approach on most topics relies on severely misrepresented stats and data. Even in this discussion/argument, despite the fact I have clearly outlined the time frame I'm speaking of, he can't address that period and has to resort to cherry picking the worst data from completely irrelevant time frames.

There's only 2 reasons he's doing this -

a) he simply isn't smart enough to stick to the discussion at hand.
b) he's trolling.

He's clearly intelligent enough to know what he's doing, so the answer then becomes obvious that he's trolling.
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Re: Regular Season Game 72: New Orleans Pelicans (31-42) at Orlando Magic (33-38) 

Post#138 » by pepe1991 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:08 am

I just don't get fascination with player that is polar opposite of what you need in your starter in modern basketball at PG.
It's like being blind fan of MKG or Roberson. Sure they do some stuff well ( that's why they are in nba after all ) but overall they simply don't fit in what you need modern player to be and to do.

And MKG in particular, being second overall pick, same age as Payton now , still young ( 25) started 354 of 415 games he played. He clearly is "starter" by logic. However, it's not hard to figure that it would much easier for Hornets to replace him with somebody modern, than find 4 players to fit him and hide his deficiency. It's easier, cheaper and most important is that he isn't good enough to build team to his strenghts.

And that's execlly what happend to him with him last 2 years. His PT went down ( to 18,8 mpg this year) ,he is no longer starter and his team,despite using 2# pick on him in past, kind a moved away from him.

Roberson is similar story but where he plays is more important. Guy started 265 of 295 games in his career. In same time guy is easly the worst shooter among NBA players who are not Cs. He is career 46,7% FT shooter. Yet he plays. How he plays? Well yea, just like MKG he is elite defender and he plays on team that had at least 1 superstar since a day he was drafted, matter of fact for vast majority of his career he plays with 2 superstars.

Where during regular season you can play them and it won't really mean that much, because teams don't game play against 1 player, in playoffs it gets kind a obvious why you really can't rely on them too much.
Andre Roberson in series vs Houton , during game 4 was hacked on purpose ( in that moment 2-1 for Houston) and sent to FT line 12 times. He missed 10 of them. Game ended up 113-109. He was literally the reason why they were eliminated. But not only that he missed 10 of 12 FTs during one game, he missed 18 of 21 free throws in that series. You simply have no value of player that "saves" points by playing super defense if there is huge possibility that if game is close ,he'll will pretty much die by his inability to do stufff that every replacment level SF does with 70-85% accuracy.


And that's my whole point , it's not about Elfrid Payon "per se" - it's about having player that does stuff well enough to be in nba and get payed, but not on a level where , in my opinion, he is worth adjusting team to his strenghts just to keep him around or play him as starter. I don't even hate Elfrid as player, why would I ? Never seen him in my life. I just don't like idea of having PG who can't really shoot, doesn't really defend well and in past refused to do some minimal required stuff to be professional - cutting hair , especially when it started to impact his performance.

Maybe best case study of player that literally lost his value while still playing in same fashion and complete decline of non shooting PGs through one player is Rondo. Guy went from top 5 PG in 2010-2011-2012 to replacment level player in 2014 when league went in another direction ,where teams no longer wanted PG to dominate ball but to spread floor, open lines and make it less obvious what one player will do.
Rondo's games in nutshell was him ballhoging for 12-18 sec ,every action was done without ball , just to have him pass to guy who would shoot. Worked wonders for his APGs ,yet in that period advanced stats took in and somebody witihn Celtics organisation figured that they are on brutal decline in offensive rating ,and team lead by him from 2010 ( 15#) 2011 ( 17#) and 2012 AND 2013 (24# )is on complete downfall in offensive rating and easly the worst non tanking offense because of his style.
And whoever figured his stats are empty was 100% on target and it was so obvious right after a trade to Dallas:

Celtics off rating with him that year : 103,1 ( 21# in nba), Boston offense after him 105, 15# in nba.
Dallas offense before allstar game ( before trade i should say) was 3rd best offense in nba with 110 rating , slipped to 101,00 ( 18# )


It was most obvious and notorious example how league changed in front of my eyes and from that moment i figured that guys like Rondo, Rubio, Payton simply won't cut it as they manipulate possessions and make team slower and worst just because team can't share ball because there is literally nothing else for them to do without ball. They can't really cut because defenders sagg off, they can't shoot so defenders really sag off, they can't really post up or do anything. Just have ball or make own team play 4 on 5 .
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