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What should Orlando do with Vuc?

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What to do with Vuc after the season?

Sign him at all cost
24
19%
Sign him only for the right price
58
46%
Let him walk it is time to let Me Bamba grow
25
20%
Try to sign and trade him
13
10%
Sign Vuc and trade Mo Bamba
5
4%
 
Total votes: 125

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Re: What should Orlando do with Vuc? 

Post#21 » by Skin » Sat Apr 6, 2019 12:37 am

MoMM wrote:
Skin wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
$120M over 4 years (minimum) is starter money to you? That is $30M a year man.

Yes, 10 players in the league are making $30M or more this season. But those are not “starters” those are SUPER STARS.

There are 30 teams who start 5 players a game. So if every league we’re to play just one lineup all year then you have 150 starters in the league.

The #150 highest salary in the league this year is Jeremy Lamb at $7.5M.

Yes, Vuc will get starter money but the right price is somewhere between $30M and $7.5M ... all of which is still “starter money” according to the data.

Go ahead and talk semantics. It's neither here or there. The point is a new 4 year big money deal means there is no path of succession for Bamba in the next 4 years and we wasted a high pick on him.

It's not the 1st, neither the last time, that a team will waste a high pick.

We had Hezonja a few years ago, for example. 76ers wasted Fultz when they could have Tatum + another pick.

Guess it's ok then.
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Re: What should Orlando do with Vuc? 

Post#22 » by MagicFan101 » Sat Apr 6, 2019 12:58 am

Skin wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
Skin wrote:Everyone is gonna vote "sign him for the right price", but everyone is gonna disagree on what that right price is.

I think he'll get 4 years, $120M at the minimum... is that ya'lls right price? That's 4 year starter money. Kiss Bamba good bye.


$120M over 4 years (minimum) is starter money to you? That is $30M a year man.

Yes, 10 players in the league are making $30M or more this season. But those are not “starters” those are SUPER STARS.

There are 30 teams who start 5 players a game. So if every league we’re to play just one lineup all year then you have 150 starters in the league.

The #150 highest salary in the league this year is Jeremy Lamb at $7.5M.

Yes, Vuc will get starter money but the right price is somewhere between $30M and $7.5M ... all of which is still “starter money” according to the data.

Go ahead and talk semantics. It's neither here or there. The point is a new 4 year big money deal means there is no path of succession for Bamba in the next 4 years and we wasted a high pick on him.


Unless some method of moving a player in the middle of their contract for another player or asset were possible. Call it a "trade" of sorts ...

Maybe you trade Vuc or maybe you package Bamba. Regardless, there are always moves to be made unless you have a completely dead and bloated deal. John Wall comes to mind.
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Re: What should Orlando do with Vuc? 

Post#23 » by Skin » Sat Apr 6, 2019 1:02 am

MagicFan101 wrote:
Skin wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
$120M over 4 years (minimum) is starter money to you? That is $30M a year man.

Yes, 10 players in the league are making $30M or more this season. But those are not “starters” those are SUPER STARS.

There are 30 teams who start 5 players a game. So if every league we’re to play just one lineup all year then you have 150 starters in the league.

The #150 highest salary in the league this year is Jeremy Lamb at $7.5M.

Yes, Vuc will get starter money but the right price is somewhere between $30M and $7.5M ... all of which is still “starter money” according to the data.

Go ahead and talk semantics. It's neither here or there. The point is a new 4 year big money deal means there is no path of succession for Bamba in the next 4 years and we wasted a high pick on him.


Unless some method of moving a player in the middle of their contract for another player or asset were possible. Call it a "trade" of sorts ...

We haven't been able to trade Vuc making $12M. You holding out hope that we would when that price tag is doubled? ...and what kind of bad contract would that be for?
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Re: What should Orlando do with Vuc? 

Post#24 » by MagicFan101 » Sat Apr 6, 2019 1:04 am

Skin wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
Skin wrote:Go ahead and talk semantics. It's neither here or there. The point is a new 4 year big money deal means there is no path of succession for Bamba in the next 4 years and we wasted a high pick on him.


Unless some method of moving a player in the middle of their contract for another player or asset were possible. Call it a "trade" of sorts ...

We haven't been able to trade Vuc making $12M. You holding out hope that we would when that price tag is doubled? ...and what kind of bad contract would that be for?


Haven't been able to or havn't wanted to? Someone has to make you an offer you want. Do you have a list in front of you of every trade conversation we have had over the Vuc era?
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Re: What should Orlando do with Vuc? 

Post#25 » by Skin » Sat Apr 6, 2019 1:09 am

MagicFan101 wrote:
Skin wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
Unless some method of moving a player in the middle of their contract for another player or asset were possible. Call it a "trade" of sorts ...

We haven't been able to trade Vuc making $12M. You holding out hope that we would when that price tag is doubled? ...and what kind of bad contract would that be for?


Haven't been able to or havn't wanted to? Someone has to make you an offer you want. Do you have a list in front of you of every trade conversation we have had over the Vuc era?

Yup. As a matter of fact, I do.

"Hi, this is Rob Hennigan. I've got an amazing trade offer for you... Nikola Vucevic for" *click dialtone*

"Hi, this is Alex Martins. I've got an amazing trade offer for you... Nikola Vucevic for" *click dialtone*

"Hi, this is Jeff Weltman. I've got an amazing trade offer for you... Nikola Vucevic for" *click dialtone*
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Re: What should Orlando do with Vuc? 

Post#26 » by MagicFan101 » Sat Apr 6, 2019 1:11 am

Skin wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
Skin wrote:We haven't been able to trade Vuc making $12M. You holding out hope that we would when that price tag is doubled? ...and what kind of bad contract would that be for?


Haven't been able to or havn't wanted to? Someone has to make you an offer you want. Do you have a list in front of you of every trade conversation we have had over the Vuc era?

Yup. As a matter of fact, I do.

"Hi, this is Rob Hennigan. I've got an amazing trade offer for you... Nikola Vucevic for" *click dialtone*

"Hi, this is Alex Martins. I've got an amazing trade offer for you... Nikola Vucevic for" *click dialtone*

"Hi, this is Jeff Weltman. I've got an amazing trade offer for you... Nikola Vucevic for" *click dialtone*


lol, helpful. Thanks.

So this is what you think of a player you want to give $120M to?

We cannot lock ourselves into Vuc on a major deal. That just cannot happen. If another team wants to max him out or anything near it then best wishes to ya big man.
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Re: What should Orlando do with Vuc? 

Post#27 » by BadHombre » Sat Apr 6, 2019 1:25 am

Skin wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
Skin wrote:Go ahead and talk semantics. It's neither here or there. The point is a new 4 year big money deal means there is no path of succession for Bamba in the next 4 years and we wasted a high pick on him.


Unless some method of moving a player in the middle of their contract for another player or asset were possible. Call it a "trade" of sorts ...

We haven't been able to trade Vuc making $12M. You holding out hope that we would when that price tag is doubled? ...and what kind of bad contract would that be for?


This is one of the bigger concerns - C's rarely return equally value in trades. Like, incredibly rarely. Not in comparison to their perceived value anyway. Brook Lopez's expiring contract in exchange for Russell is possibly the best return on a traded C in the last 20 years.

If you lock a C into a big contract, your committing to them for the duration of that deal or need to be prepared to give it up for a pretty terrible return in the future. Return that wouldn't justify the $17-30M per season you've sunk into that player.

This is for C's across the board though, not specifically Vuc.
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Re: What should Orlando do with Vuc? 

Post#28 » by AdamTheGreek » Sat Apr 6, 2019 4:19 am

Save these types of polls until after the playoffs (if we get in, not a lock yet).

A lot of opinions can change depending on which players perform well or not in postseason play.
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Re: What should Orlando do with Vuc? 

Post#29 » by NEM » Sat Apr 6, 2019 5:36 am

JF5 wrote:
Skin wrote:Everyone is gonna vote "sign him for the right price", but everyone is gonna disagree on what that right price is.

I think he'll get 4 years, $120M at the minimum... is that ya'lls right price? That's 4 year starter money. Kiss Bamba good bye.


You're ridiculous... There is no way in hell Kemba is coming here unless there is another star/all-star caliber player on this team. The man is pushing 30 and there is no way he'd wait for a bunch of young/raw players to develop within 3-4 years. It would be no different than him staying with Charlotte.

If the Magic want a shot at immediate competition they'll resign Vuc. If they want to go the complete rebuild route which will take 3-4 years they'll let him walk.


3-4 years if they hit on every draft pick and free agent signing/trade. We are in year 7 of our “rebuild” and just now talking playoffs..
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Re: What should Orlando do with Vuc? 

Post#30 » by OrlandO » Sat Apr 6, 2019 6:12 am

Skin wrote:
OrlandO wrote:Well it is documented that Weltman hopes to negotiate and sign him... he's already said this like 3 times in the past couple months after being awfully quiet about the situation earlier in the season. I am guessing Weltman is looking for something in the 20-25m range, possibly three years rather than four. The question is, is that a negotiating tactic or does he actually have a hard figure in mind. I suppose Vuc can gain or lose a few million per year depending on how he plays in the post season... if we get there.

Fully believe that Vuc surprised them. They were planning for Bamba to have a future here, but are now going to scrap that plan because Vuc has done enough to impress them.

Our future is murky and questionable.

Always so over the top. There is a scenario where we re-sign Vuc for the present and develop Bamba for the future.
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Re: What should Orlando do with Vuc? 

Post#31 » by pepe1991 » Sat Apr 6, 2019 7:13 am

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Re: What should Orlando do with Vuc? 

Post#32 » by drsd » Sat Apr 6, 2019 8:43 am

Catledge wrote:I would offer him $100m over 5 years. If we can get him on a descending deal, that's around 17% of the salary cap in his last year, which is totally reasonable.


I think resigning Vučević will be as much about a 5th year as it will be about the dollar amount itself.

A 28M / 27M / 26M / 25M / 25M deal, which is 5-years and 131M is the sort of deal that could keep him in Orlando.

But what happens when another team offers him a 4-year mini-Max? He's got a family to feed, and all, and in that the 5th year will be particularly important for Orlando to remain attractive.


..
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Re: What should Orlando do with Vuc? 

Post#33 » by Solid Snake » Sat Apr 6, 2019 9:15 am

honestly don't know what we're going to do with him....however i can imagine how we'd be without him....back at the bottom of the barrel....Vuc is such a big part of what we do, there is no one on this roster that comes close..that's just if Vuc goes....if T-Ross goes with him we're going to going back to the days where we're barely scoring 40 at half-time....either way tough call
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Re: What should Orlando do with Vuc? 

Post#34 » by Knightro » Sat Apr 6, 2019 9:50 am

Skin wrote:Go ahead and talk semantics. It's neither here or there. The point is a new 4 year big money deal means there is no path of succession for Bamba in the next 4 years and we wasted a high pick on him.


A lot of people keep talking about this idea of Vucevic “blocking” Bamba like it’s some horrific thing.

1. Bamba was by most metrics one of the worst players in the entire NBA this past year. He was terrible and showed he’s nowhere close to ready to play starter minutes, physically or mentally speaking.

2. Vucevic by the same metrics was one of the very best players in the NBA this past year.

The way I see it, rather than complain about a lottery pick being blocked for the next couple of years (and really he’d only be blocked from playing 35 MPG, he’ll still be playing 15-20 a night), shouldn’t we just embrace the good fortune of one of our existing players transforming into a top 15* NBA player out of nowhere?

*this is assuming Vucevic can match this year’s production over the rest of his next contract and this isn’t a one year outlier.
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Re: What should Orlando do with Vuc? 

Post#35 » by Knightro » Sat Apr 6, 2019 9:58 am

OrlandO wrote:Always so over the top. There is a scenario where we re-sign Vuc for the present and develop Bamba for the future.


100% this.

Bamba is 20 years old and the Magic have him under control for the next four years after this one.

If they retain Vuc, then Bamba plays as a backup for 15-20 minutes a night for the time being. That’s about all he’s really capable of anyway at this time, so what’s the problem?

Once Vucevic’s new contract runs out, Bamba - who will be all of 24 years old if Vucevic plays out a 4 year deal - can take the reigns and be the center for the next 5-7 years.

Beyond that, just because Vucevic signs a 4 or even 5 year deal (I don’t expect this, but it’s possible) doesn’t mean he is guaranteed to be in Orlando that entire time.

If two years from now Bamba is looking like Gobert with a 3PT shot and the Magic can’t afford to keep him off the court, then you just trade Vucevic away and get the Bamba era started earlier.
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Re: What should Orlando do with Vuc? 

Post#36 » by Catledge » Sat Apr 6, 2019 10:26 am

drsd wrote:
Catledge wrote:I would offer him $100m over 5 years. If we can get him on a descending deal, that's around 17% of the salary cap in his last year, which is totally reasonable.


I think resigning Vučević will be as much about a 5th year as it will be about the dollar amount itself.

A 28M / 27M / 26M / 25M / 25M deal, which is 5-years and 131M is the sort of deal that could keep him in Orlando.

But what happens when another team offers him a 4-year mini-Max? He's got a family to feed, and all, and in that the 5th year will be particularly important for Orlando to remain attractive.


..


I think $131m is too much. Giving him $28m in his first year is one thing, but I think the Magic would have to insist on bigger per-year decreases. I think you would have to bring down the number by $2m each year so that you are down around $20m or lower in the last year.
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Re: What should Orlando do with Vuc? 

Post#37 » by Catledge » Sat Apr 6, 2019 10:34 am

Knightro wrote:
OrlandO wrote:Always so over the top. There is a scenario where we re-sign Vuc for the present and develop Bamba for the future.


100% this.

Bamba is 20 years old and the Magic have him under control for the next four years after this one.

If they retain Vuc, then Bamba plays as a backup for 15-20 minutes a night for the time being. That’s about all he’s really capable of anyway at this time, so what’s the problem?

Once Vucevic’s new contract runs out, Bamba - who will be all of 24 years old if Vucevic plays out a 4 year deal - can take the reigns and be the center for the next 5-7 years.

Beyond that, just because Vucevic signs a 4 or even 5 year deal (I don’t expect this, but it’s possible) doesn’t mean he is guaranteed to be in Orlando that entire time.

If two years from now Bamba is looking like Gobert with a 3PT shot and the Magic can’t afford to keep him off the court, then you just trade Vucevic away and get the Bamba era started earlier.


Yes, and I would also add that if Bamba starts to show signs of being as good or better than Vooch, then Bamba will be a very valuable trade asset that can be used to upgrade a guard position.

And if Bamba becomes so good that we want to make him our centerpiece (doesn't seem likely), the worst of the likely scenarios is that we trade Vooch in a deal similar to when we traded Harris, meaning that we might not get much back, but it's unlikely that we'll be stuck with a contract we don't want.
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Re: What should Orlando do with Vuc? 

Post#38 » by PrimeThyme » Sat Apr 6, 2019 11:44 am

I voted for signing him at the right money, but I will concede that there is an argument for signing him at all costs. I just look at Al Horford, his stats, and the contract he got at an older age coming off of an All-star season and its hard for me to just flat out say he doesn't deserve that kind of contract.

Bamba is a player I honestly don't see truly contributing to winning basketball until the end of his rookie contract. From a physicality standpoint at the position he plays and his lack of defensive IQ at this current stage, I just don't see it happening. Thats okay though, and as I and others have stated all year, resigning Vuc may still be in our best interest for those very reasons.

Let's see how we finish out the season. If we make the playoffs as the 6th seed and take a team in the first round to 6 games then he is going to be resigned and it will probably be for max money. If we get in as the 8th seed and get swept then maybe it changes things.
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Re: What should Orlando do with Vuc? 

Post#39 » by Viper1500 » Sat Apr 6, 2019 11:55 am

The playoffs will be where he earns his money. Same goes for Ross.
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Re: What should Orlando do with Vuc? 

Post#40 » by BadHombre » Sat Apr 6, 2019 12:02 pm

Catledge wrote:
Knightro wrote:
OrlandO wrote:Always so over the top. There is a scenario where we re-sign Vuc for the present and develop Bamba for the future.


100% this.

Bamba is 20 years old and the Magic have him under control for the next four years after this one.

If they retain Vuc, then Bamba plays as a backup for 15-20 minutes a night for the time being. That’s about all he’s really capable of anyway at this time, so what’s the problem?

Once Vucevic’s new contract runs out, Bamba - who will be all of 24 years old if Vucevic plays out a 4 year deal - can take the reigns and be the center for the next 5-7 years.

Beyond that, just because Vucevic signs a 4 or even 5 year deal (I don’t expect this, but it’s possible) doesn’t mean he is guaranteed to be in Orlando that entire time.

If two years from now Bamba is looking like Gobert with a 3PT shot and the Magic can’t afford to keep him off the court, then you just trade Vucevic away and get the Bamba era started earlier.


Yes, and I would also add that if Bamba starts to show signs of being as good or better than Vooch, then Bamba will be a very valuable trade asset that can be used to upgrade a guard position.

And if Bamba becomes so good that we want to make him our centerpiece (doesn't seem likely), the worst of the likely scenarios is that we trade Vooch in a deal similar to when we traded Harris, meaning that we might not get much back, but it's unlikely that we'll be stuck with a contract we don't want.


Locking in to Vuc for 4 years does make Bamba a wasted prospect, though. Especially with someone like Birch offering great hustle and impact and likely costing a pittance on his next contract. If they sign Vuc, then trading Bamba for the best SG they can get should be the priority. For a couple of reasons:

Firstly, because even the recent-form Fournier isn't enough to be the reliable perimeter scorer we need, and the rest of the backcourt is prayers (Fultz) or an adequate-but-not-great PG.

Secondly, because Ross, who has been the 2nd most impactful player on the team in our wins, is an option we probably can't afford to retain with Vuc, whilst preserving any future flexibility.

But I would be shocked if WeHam gave up on their drafted prospect. Which would leave us completely invested in the frontcourt and empty in the backcourt. And I can't envision them waiting 4 years to see if he can cut it, or wanting to deal with trying to trade a C on a big contract (in the event they want to ship Vuc).

So my guess is their offer will either be a short term massive pay offer, like 2 years MAX. Or 3 years starting in the high 20's and decreasing. The summer of 2020 will be when we're best poised to chase free agents, so I can only imagine that they'll want to structure contracts towards that, for now.

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