Everything Orlando vs Toronto (minus GT's)

[pepe1991]

Would probably have to be a sign and trade for mozgov/fournier/picks.

If you are Kemba you are either going to Knicks or Lakers or take supermax

I'm rather happy that this is a bullet we are very likely to dodge. I like Kemba, but I don't think paying him a lot of money would be prudent. I think he is among the most overrated players in the NBA. The Kemba-Vucevic pick-and-roll would be fun to watch though.

I said something similar week ago, i don't find Kemba that special. Also i don't think being 6'0 guard who relies around athletics will age well entering his 30s.
Regardless, Magic don't have salary to sign anybody big.

[Xatticus]

Spoiler:

I'm quite aware of what your eye test tells you about all things Evan Fournier.

I haven't posted here in years, so I'm assuming you are talking about the 15-16 season when we used to disagree about Hezonja vs Fournier. You used to insist that Mario Hezonja was an exponentially better player than Fournier. That opinion didn't age well.

It's just rather curious that we are talking about league scouts fearing the Fournier-Vucevic pick-and-roll when the Augustin-Vucevic pick-and-roll has been the engine that has driven our offense this season; insofar as our offense has been successful (22nd of 30 teams in efficiency). The Augustin-Vucevic pick-and-roll was also the engine that drove our offense in the win against Toronto in the series opener.

Actually, the engine that drives Clifford's offensive system (especially the starting unit) is not about who, but about lane penetration/paint touches and how he can establish that most effectively . The way that Clifford accomplishes that is primarily with DJ or Fournier PnR's (or PnR-like actions) + Vucevic and Gordon low-mid post feeds. Match-ups and time-of-game usually dictate which action he emphasizes.

How often do you see Augustin dropping 25pts and looking for his shot that aggressively? He was scorching hot; meanwhile Vucevic, Ross, Gordon and Fournier were ice cold. DJ was aggressively looking for his shot on Saturday, taking 13 FGA's. That's a mark he only reached a grand total of 5 times in 81 games last season. My guess is that's not going to replicate.

Also, Toronto did a good job of keeping the ball out of Fournier's hands, in particular they really disrupted that left side 2/5 PnR before it could get set up...they had it scouted very good.

Almost everyone on this board watches more of the Orlando Magic than does Zach Lowe.

I'd bet no one on this board watches more NBA basketball than Zach Lowe, or have as many statistical resources available to them, or have as much up close/inside information as he does. Having that non-fan objective take is a good thing in my opinion.

I suppose I can look forward to the March 2020 edition of the Lowe Post to hear that Wes Iwundu is giving us some good minutes off the bench.

Those that follow Lowe know that he actually talks about the Magic regularly. A couple of weeks before talking about Birch he wrote about Vucevic's bbIQ and post skills. In fact he was at the front of the Vucevic for All-Star campaign long before others - even before most Magic fans. You won't have to wait that long.

Your list excludes anyone that isn't a starter.

Because that is the most reflective sample. We are discussing a starting player no? Second units normally run lower caliber players and include gassed starters.

Your list excludes anyone that didn't play sufficient minutes or that missed time with injury. You pare this list down to 14 names for what reason?

Well yea, the point was to show players who compare in drive volume....you don't think a 100+ rep cushion was enough? Should I have included players who only played a handful of games or don't drive with frequency - all that does is add clutter. If you do it per game instead of total volume then what is game played threshold 10 games, 20 games, 30 games etc - what is that arbitrary threshold? Is someone who drives 1-2 times per game in the same role as someone who drives +7 times per game?

I thought we were talking about the pick-and-roll anyway? That's a list of drives. You didn't mention that Fournier was in the 35th percentile in the league in efficiency as a pick-and-roll ballhandler. It's really great to hear that league scouts fear it though.

I specifically said that he has been bad in PnR this year...go back and reread. Also, the Magic do run a lot of Fournier/Vucevic PnR actions - I proved it with tracking stats. The Driving data adds even more insight as it shows drive volume and Magic fans know that most common way that Fournier gets drive/paint penetration is through PnR-like actions (dribble hand offs, screens etc) which are almost always done with Vucevic.

I look forward to you mangling more statistics in your mission to make us all appreciate just how special Evan Fournier is.

I don't look forward to your personal attacks when confronted with opinions that differ from yours...reminds me why I stopped posting here.

That's not a personal attack. That's a statement of fact. You abuse statistics like nobody else on this board.

No. You can't simply remove data because it doesn't align with your point of view. That's deception. It offends me in the same way that Nietzsche's works were posthumously altered to promote pro-nationalistic and anti-semitic ideas offends me. You are trading on the credibility of statistics while grossly abusing it in the process.

A sample needs to be only large enough to provide a reasonable representation of the population. The requisite number for any sample can actually be calculated. Generally speaking, thirty is a magic number in statistics. There is absolutely no rational justification to exclude any data for players simply because they didn't start or play some arbitrarily high number of minutes unless your goal is to craft some tiny list to fit your agenda.

By the way, have you been going back and editing your old posts? I ask because I have been receiving notifications over the last couple weeks (since before your triumphant return) that you have been replying to my posts in threads that died a long time ago, yet there aren't actually any new posts. I'd find that quite hilarious considering that you erroneously accused me of doing as much to try to win arguments with you.

It's also funny to me that you left because of the negativity around here. I thought your state of perpetual argumentation with half the board was the source of that negativity.

[dsg2021]

Spoiler:

I'm quite aware of what your eye test tells you about all things Evan Fournier.

I haven't posted here in years, so I'm assuming you are talking about the 15-16 season when we used to disagree about Hezonja vs Fournier. You used to insist that Mario Hezonja was an exponentially better player than Fournier. That opinion didn't age well.

It's just rather curious that we are talking about league scouts fearing the Fournier-Vucevic pick-and-roll when the Augustin-Vucevic pick-and-roll has been the engine that has driven our offense this season; insofar as our offense has been successful (22nd of 30 teams in efficiency). The Augustin-Vucevic pick-and-roll was also the engine that drove our offense in the win against Toronto in the series opener.

Actually, the engine that drives Clifford's offensive system (especially the starting unit) is not about who, but about lane penetration/paint touches and how he can establish that most effectively . The way that Clifford accomplishes that is primarily with DJ or Fournier PnR's (or PnR-like actions) + Vucevic and Gordon low-mid post feeds. Match-ups and time-of-game usually dictate which action he emphasizes.

How often do you see Augustin dropping 25pts and looking for his shot that aggressively? He was scorching hot; meanwhile Vucevic, Ross, Gordon and Fournier were ice cold. DJ was aggressively looking for his shot on Saturday, taking 13 FGA's. That's a mark he only reached a grand total of 5 times in 81 games last season. My guess is that's not going to replicate.

Also, Toronto did a good job of keeping the ball out of Fournier's hands, in particular they really disrupted that left side 2/5 PnR before it could get set up...they had it scouted very good.

Almost everyone on this board watches more of the Orlando Magic than does Zach Lowe.

I'd bet no one on this board watches more NBA basketball than Zach Lowe, or have as many statistical resources available to them, or have as much up close/inside information as he does. Having that non-fan objective take is a good thing in my opinion.

I suppose I can look forward to the March 2020 edition of the Lowe Post to hear that Wes Iwundu is giving us some good minutes off the bench.

Those that follow Lowe know that he actually talks about the Magic regularly. A couple of weeks before talking about Birch he wrote about Vucevic's bbIQ and post skills. In fact he was at the front of the Vucevic for All-Star campaign long before others - even before most Magic fans. You won't have to wait that long.

Your list excludes anyone that isn't a starter.

Because that is the most reflective sample. We are discussing a starting player no? Second units normally run lower caliber players and include gassed starters.

Your list excludes anyone that didn't play sufficient minutes or that missed time with injury. You pare this list down to 14 names for what reason?

Well yea, the point was to show players who compare in drive volume....you don't think a 100+ rep cushion was enough? Should I have included players who only played a handful of games or don't drive with frequency - all that does is add clutter. If you do it per game instead of total volume then what is game played threshold 10 games, 20 games, 30 games etc - what is that arbitrary threshold? Is someone who drives 1-2 times per game in the same role as someone who drives +7 times per game?

I thought we were talking about the pick-and-roll anyway? That's a list of drives. You didn't mention that Fournier was in the 35th percentile in the league in efficiency as a pick-and-roll ballhandler. It's really great to hear that league scouts fear it though.

I specifically said that he has been bad in PnR this year...go back and reread. Also, the Magic do run a lot of Fournier/Vucevic PnR actions - I proved it with tracking stats. The Driving data adds even more insight as it shows drive volume and Magic fans know that most common way that Fournier gets drive/paint penetration is through PnR-like actions (dribble hand offs, screens etc) which are almost always done with Vucevic.

I look forward to you mangling more statistics in your mission to make us all appreciate just how special Evan Fournier is.

I don't look forward to your personal attacks when confronted with opinions that differ from yours...reminds me why I stopped posting here.

That's not a personal attack. That's a statement of fact. You abuse statistics like nobody else on this board.

No. You can't simply remove data because it doesn't align with your point of view. That's deception. It offends me in the same way that Nietzsche's works were posthumously altered to promote pro-nationalistic and anti-semitic ideas offends me. You are trading on the credibility of statistics while grossly abusing it in the process.

A sample needs to be only large enough to provide a reasonable representation of the population. The requisite number for any sample can actually be calculated. Generally speaking, thirty is a magic number in statistics. There is absolutely no rational justification to exclude any data for players simply because they didn't start or play some arbitrarily high number of minutes unless your goal is to craft some tiny list to fit your agenda.

By the way, have you been going back and editing your old posts? I ask because I have been receiving notifications over the last couple weeks (since before your triumphant return) that you have been replying to my posts in threads that died a long time ago, yet there aren't actually any new posts. I'd find that quite hilarious considering that you erroneously accused me of doing as much to try to win arguments with you.

It's also funny to me that you left because of the negativity around here. I thought your state of perpetual argumentation with half the board was the source of that negativity.

This just goes all the way back to what I was saying to Knightro earlier, you're using statistics too strictly, and not carefully recognizing the real world.

For Knightro, it's using AG's stats from a 5th option, 23 mpg season and comparing to a man trying to build up his 1st option, 2nd option repertoire. It's not a fair comparison because of the type of defenders and the type of scouting focus you get from opponents when you are doing it as a top 2-3 option instead of a sneaky 7th man, 4th option. Similarly for you, you would rather open up the data sample to all of these players that would obviously perform better than Fournier and other higher usage starters, but then you fail to even recognize that, 'hey, this lower mpg, non-starter might not be able to replicate his amazing driving efficiency as a top 2 option, but it shows there might be something there' .. you would rather just maximize the sample window and prove the point wrong.

One irrefutable fact is that Fournier is a top 1-2 driver in Orlando, and a lot of it is thru Vooch.

Scouting is intersecting data analytics with basketball scouting. Why does JI get the game-high 40 minutes? Because Orlando's got the personnel who watches the games carefully , and then adds in deflections to their data pool (where JI is by far the most impactful, hence a factor for getting 40 minutes).

[pepe1991]

Just to mine two cents about stats topic.

When you re-evalute players based on stats it's hard, stilly and flat out stupid to compare role player/ 5-11 FGA players, especially spot up shooters with players who get up their own shots and who have higher usage.

Wes Iwundu shoots 37% for 3, while 100% of all his 3s are assisted.

Player like JJ Redick has career 60% TS because 91% of all his 3s are assisted, and almost 20% of all 3s he made are for corner AND assisted ( still looked as easiest 3 out there ).


In middle i picked Devin Booker, naturally super gifted shooter, but who is yet to have great year as shooter.
58% of his 3s are assisted.


On opposite spectrum of shooting you have James Harden who shoots 5% worst for 3 (than JJ) and is career 36,5% for 3 shooter. HOWEVER, only 16% of all his 3FGs are assisted.

Now it's up to you to read through this,and based on opinion you can come to conclusions like:
a) Iwundu should shoot more
b) JJ is smartest player because he least amount of work to get a job done
c) Harden is smartest/Best because he doesn't need anybody else to get up shot
d) BOoker should shoot less
e)Booker should shoot only spotups
f) Harden is MVP

It's just perception, looking at player who takes 8 FGA a game, and all of them are assisted and open ( Isaac for example ) and compare him to Gordon or Evan to say "look ,he is way more effective" is idiotic and flat out naive. I could use Raptors for example here again, Danny Green and his shots vs Leonard and his. Green is way more effective,but nobody in right mind thinks he should shoot more than Leonard.
On every team there are players that opponents game-plan to defend , on Magic they are Vuc, Gordon and Evan, on Raptors they are Lowry and Leonard (and now Siakam ) . Their shots are always harder and better defended than shots of Fred VanVleet and Wes Iwundu. That's why lot of good backup players look like scrubs when they get starting level jobs ( Reggie Jackson) and vice-versa ( Rudy Gay, Lou Williams...)

Arguing intepretation of stats is worthless.

[AdamTheGreek]

Yup hopefully they took this opportunity to rest and relax and not go out and get distracted by what Toronto has to offer.

Is Vuc feeling alrighy after his sickness?

Apparently he was still feeling the effects of it for Game 1.

But it’s been said he’s fully healthy as of Monday. So we’ll see if Vooch has a better game in Game 2.

[RookieStar]

Yup hopefully they took this opportunity to rest and relax and not go out and get distracted by what Toronto has to offer.

Is Vuc feeling alrighy after his sickness?

Apparently he was still feeling the effects of it for Game 1.

But it’s been said he’s fully healthy as of Monday. So we’ll see if Vooch has a better game in Game 2.

Hope so... and not just Gasol shutting down Vuc

[NotACat]

Yup hopefully they took this opportunity to rest and relax and not go out and get distracted by what Toronto has to offer.

Is Vuc feeling alrighy after his sickness?

Apparently he was still feeling the effects of it for Game 1.

But it’s been said he’s fully healthy as of Monday. So we’ll see if Vooch has a better game in Game 2.

Hope so... and not just Gasol shutting down Vuc

I think we'll adjust by setting up Vuc differently. Most of his postups came from the low block Gasol neutralizes Vuc pretty well. I think if we moved Vuc's post-ups to the elbow or further out to take Gasol off the dribble, Vuc would be much more effective at getting his shots or getting teammates open by forcing a double tam.

[ezzzp]

That's not a personal attack. That's a statement of fact. You abuse statistics like nobody else on this board.

Yes it is. You are attacking the person's validity not the comment. Your unsubstantiated opinions are not facts; they are just more deflections trying to draw attention away from your totally incorrect statement.

No. You can't simply remove data because it doesn't align with your point of view. That's deception. It offends me in the same way that Nietzsche's works were posthumously altered to promote pro-nationalistic and anti-semitic ideas offends me. You are trading on the credibility of statistics while grossly abusing it in the process.

Name dropping Neitzche on a basketball forum - if that isn't a clear tell of intellectual insecurity I don't know what is. LMAO

Not only are you questioning the validity of statistics compiled by the NBA's camera tracking, but you are also comically trying to discredit one of the most respected NBA reporters + a prominent NBA player development coach with ties to the Magic organization.

A sample needs to be only large enough to provide a reasonable representation of the population. The requisite number for any sample can actually be calculated. Generally speaking, thirty is a magic number in statistics. There is absolutely no rational justification to exclude any data for players simply because they didn't start or play some arbitrarily high number of minutes unless your goal is to craft some tiny list to fit your agenda.

You want a bigger sample? There it is:

https://on.nba.com/2Xesh7Z

Guess what, Fournier still has high drive volume; and he still shooting a very good 47.6% on those possessions and creating points for others on 11.9% of those possessions.

But hey, at least we now know that Davon Reed (47 min), Jarred Vanderbilt (69 min), Jemmerio Jones (167 min) and Trevon Duval (6 min) are tied with the highest AST% in the NBA...well at least if you ignore common sense and don't filter out volume....we're all better for that LMAO.

Oh and you want to use your arbitrary "30" game sample? OK here it is:

https://on.nba.com/2Xf2ZGX

Guess what, Fournier is still at the top of NBA, 36th out +500 NBA players in driving volume.

...AND guess what he's still shooting a very good 47.6% on drives (that's higher % than guys like Paul George, Jimmy Butler, Jason Tatum, Donavon Mitchell, Chris Paul etc). Go look, let the numbers you chose to deem "valid" prove you wrong...again.

...AND guess what he's still creating points for others on 11.9% of those possessions (go take look at what other players are in that % range and below it); you're not going to like what you find as it also destroys your flawed opinion.

By the way, have you been going back and editing your old posts? I ask because I have been receiving notifications over the last couple weeks (since before your triumphant return) that you have been replying to my posts in threads that died a long time ago, yet there aren't actually any new posts. I'd find that quite hilarious considering that you erroneously accused me of doing as much to try to win arguments with you. It's also funny to me that you left because of the negativity around here. I thought your state of perpetual argumentation with half the board was the source of that negativity.

WHAT?!...LMAO what a sad attempt to discredit me for proving you totally wrong...you need to seek help.

[Def Swami]

That's not a personal attack. That's a statement of fact. You abuse statistics like nobody else on this board.

Yes it is. You are attacking the person's validity not the comment. Your unsubstantiated opinions are not facts; they are just more deflections trying to draw attention away from your totally incorrect statement.

No. You can't simply remove data because it doesn't align with your point of view. That's deception. It offends me in the same way that Nietzsche's works were posthumously altered to promote pro-nationalistic and anti-semitic ideas offends me. You are trading on the credibility of statistics while grossly abusing it in the process.

Name dropping Neitzche on a basketball forum - if that isn't a clear tell of intellectual insecurity I don't know what is. LMAO

Not only are you questioning the validity of statistics compiled by the NBA's camera tracking, but you are also comically trying to discredit one of the most respected NBA reporters + a prominent NBA player development coach with ties to the Magic organization.

A sample needs to be only large enough to provide a reasonable representation of the population. The requisite number for any sample can actually be calculated. Generally speaking, thirty is a magic number in statistics. There is absolutely no rational justification to exclude any data for players simply because they didn't start or play some arbitrarily high number of minutes unless your goal is to craft some tiny list to fit your agenda.

You want a bigger sample? There it is:

https://on.nba.com/2Xesh7Z

Guess what, Fournier still has high drive volume; and he still shooting a very good 47.6% on those possessions and creating points for others on 11.9% of those possessions.

But hey, at least we now know that Davon Reed (47 min), Jarred Vanderbilt (69 min), Jemmerio Jones (167 min) and Trevon Duval (6 min) are tied with the highest AST% in the NBA...well at least if you ignore common sense and don't filter out volume....we're all better for that LMAO.

Oh and you want to use your arbitrary "30" game sample? OK here it is:

https://on.nba.com/2Xf2ZGX

Guess what, Fournier is still at the top of NBA, 36th out +500 NBA players in driving volume.

...AND guess what he's still shooting a very good 47.6% on drives (that's higher % than guys like Paul George, Jimmy Butler, Jason Tatum, Donavon Mitchell, Chris Paul etc). Go look, let the numbers you chose to deem "valid" prove you wrong...again.

...AND guess what he's still creating points for others on 11.9% of those possessions (go take look at what other players are in that % range and below it); you're not going to like what you find as it also destroys your flawed opinion.

By the way, have you been going back and editing your old posts? I ask because I have been receiving notifications over the last couple weeks (since before your triumphant return) that you have been replying to my posts in threads that died a long time ago, yet there aren't actually any new posts. I'd find that quite hilarious considering that you erroneously accused me of doing as much to try to win arguments with you. It's also funny to me that you left because of the negativity around here. I thought your state of perpetual argumentation with half the board was the source of that negativity.

WHAT?! LMAO what a sad attempt to discredit me for proving you totally wrong...you need to seek help.

I think we've exhausted this argument, guys. Let it go and move on, and enjoy the game tonight.

[rcklsscognition]

Read on Twitter

[OrlandO]

Read on Twitter

my guess is AG brought the headbands and vuc made the benihana joke

[Xatticus]

Spoiler:

That's not a personal attack. That's a statement of fact. You abuse statistics like nobody else on this board.

Yes it is. You are attacking the person's validity not the comment. Your unsubstantiated opinions are not facts; they are just more deflections trying to draw attention away from your totally incorrect statement.

No. You can't simply remove data because it doesn't align with your point of view. That's deception. It offends me in the same way that Nietzsche's works were posthumously altered to promote pro-nationalistic and anti-semitic ideas offends me. You are trading on the credibility of statistics while grossly abusing it in the process.

Name dropping Neitzche on a basketball forum - if that isn't a clear tell of intellectual insecurity I don't know what is. LMAO

Not only are you questioning the validity of statistics compiled by the NBA's camera tracking, but you are also comically trying to discredit one of the most respected NBA reporters + a prominent NBA player development coach with ties to the Magic organization.

A sample needs to be only large enough to provide a reasonable representation of the population. The requisite number for any sample can actually be calculated. Generally speaking, thirty is a magic number in statistics. There is absolutely no rational justification to exclude any data for players simply because they didn't start or play some arbitrarily high number of minutes unless your goal is to craft some tiny list to fit your agenda.

You want a bigger sample? There it is:

https://on.nba.com/2Xesh7Z

Guess what, Fournier still has high drive volume; and he still shooting a very good 47.6% on those possessions and creating points for others on 11.9% of those possessions.

But hey, at least we now know that Davon Reed (47 min), Jarred Vanderbilt (69 min), Jemmerio Jones (167 min) and Trevon Duval (6 min) are tied with the highest AST% in the NBA...well at least if you ignore common sense and don't filter out volume....we're all better for that LMAO.

Oh and you want to use your arbitrary "30" game sample? OK here it is:

https://on.nba.com/2Xf2ZGX

Guess what, Fournier is still at the top of NBA, 36th out +500 NBA players in driving volume.

...AND guess what he's still shooting a very good 47.6% on drives (that's higher % than guys like Paul George, Jimmy Butler, Jason Tatum, Donavon Mitchell, Chris Paul etc). Go look, let the numbers you chose to deem "valid" prove you wrong...again.

...AND guess what he's still creating points for others on 11.9% of those possessions (go take look at what other players are in that % range and below it); you're not going to like what you find as it also destroys your flawed opinion.

By the way, have you been going back and editing your old posts? I ask because I have been receiving notifications over the last couple weeks (since before your triumphant return) that you have been replying to my posts in threads that died a long time ago, yet there aren't actually any new posts. I'd find that quite hilarious considering that you erroneously accused me of doing as much to try to win arguments with you. It's also funny to me that you left because of the negativity around here. I thought your state of perpetual argumentation with half the board was the source of that negativity.

WHAT?!...LMAO what a sad attempt to discredit me for proving you totally wrong...you need to seek help.

Yeah. My boy Jay-Z told me this might happen and that I should use some random shill that takes money from big oil to write articles to undermine the credibility of climate change as an example, but I felt convinced that this was the better choice because at least that shill was getting paid to represent someone else's interests. I guess Jay-Z was right after all. I'm going to have to apologize to Jay-Z.

I never attacked the credibility of Zach Lowe. I pointed out how out of date the comment regarding the Fournier-Vucevic pick-and-roll was. You took exception to that.

I didn't question the validity of tracking stats. I questioned why you concocted this list of names unrelated to the topic at hand to point out that Evan Fournier ranks 9th in the entire league in something. Is that some meaningful accomplishment? As best as I can glean, your argument is that Fournier has had a rough year because the entire league is game planning for him and that despite his inefficiency, he is still vitally important to our offense. Is that about right?

Here is an ezzzp special for you:
https://on.nba.com/2v64Bqf

It's a list I contrived to demonstrate that Evan Fournier is the 2nd worst pick-and-roll ballhandler in the league. It's misleading garbage, but it only took a couple filters to make that happen and at least it is related to the topic of discussion.

Further, I pointed out how absurd it is to draw a distinction between starters and bench players. You thought I was talking about Jarred Vanderbilt? I'm sorry. I should've provided clarification. I was actually thinking of guys like Derrick Rose, Spencer Dinwiddie, or Terrence Ross. They don't belong in a separate category simply because they don't start. You might not have noticed, but Orlando's bench is better defensively right now than is its starting unit. That's really not uncommon.

Here is a screen capture showing me a notification of a reply to a post that is more than three years old in a thread that has been dead since last July:




There isn't actually a new post in that thread. I've received a bunch of these notifications over the last two weeks or so all relating to you. I'm sure they are just glitches in the matrix?

[ezzzp]

I never attacked the credibility of Zach Lowe. I pointed out how out of date the comment regarding the Fournier-Vucevic pick-and-roll was. You took exception to that.

Your words: "If you ever listen to Lowe (...or anyone that covers the NBA nationally really), it becomes really obvious that they don't actually watch Orlando that often."

I didn't question the validity of tracking stats. I questioned why you concocted this list of names unrelated to the topic at hand to point out that Evan Fournier ranks 9th in the entire league in something.

Uh, first of all it wasn't a ranking - it was a set of who and how many other players drive and create at same scale...hence why the link is preceded by these words: "There aren't a lot of starters that had that type of driving volume and managed to create at that level."

...LMAO that you think that is unrelated to analyzing Fournier's role - especially discussing PnR's and his play interaction with Vucevic.

It's a list I contrived to demonstrate that Evan Fournier is the 2nd worst pick-and-roll ballhandler in the league. It's misleading garbage, but it only took a couple filters to make that happen and at least it is related to the topic of discussion.

Actually that's incorrect. League percentile ignores filters, that number is based on entire NBA. Fournier was bad in PnR, your filters didn't make it appear that way, he was. Plus the point wasn’t to show how effective he was but to show volume which proves your comment that he doesn’t run PnR’s as being totally incorrect.

Also PnR ball handler tracking stats don't include PnR-like actions. Which is exactlywhy you have to add DRIVE stats. They include things like screen hand offs etc, which give a more complete context of his interplay with Vucevic and what type of actions he IS effective at.

Further, I pointed out how absurd it is to draw a distinction between starters

No you didn't, all you did was clutter and drown out what is relevant. Obviously something you are trying to hide to keep that ridiculous pov.

[Def Swami]

Read on Twitter

[Xatticus]

I never attacked the credibility of Zach Lowe. I pointed out how out of date the comment regarding the Fournier-Vucevic pick-and-roll was. You took exception to that.

Your words: "If you ever listen to Lowe (...or anyone that covers the NBA nationally really), it becomes really obvious that they don't actually watch Orlando that often."

That was an attack? I guess it's safe to add Zach Lowe to the list with Fournier and Skiles.

I didn't question the validity of tracking stats. I questioned why you concocted this list of names unrelated to the topic at hand to point out that Evan Fournier ranks 9th in the entire league in something.

Uh, first of all it wasn't a ranking - it was a set of who and how many other players drive and create at same scale...hence why the link is preceded by these words: "There aren't a lot of starters that had that type of driving volume and managed to create at that level."

...LMAO that you think that is unrelated to analyzing Fournier's role - especially discussing PnR's and his play interaction with Vucevic.

It's a list I contrived to demonstrate that Evan Fournier is the 2nd worst pick-and-roll ballhandler in the league. It's misleading garbage, but it only took a couple filters to make that happen and at least it is related to the topic of discussion.

Actually that's incorrect. League percentile ignores filters, that number is based on entire NBA. Fournier was bad in PnR, your filters didn't make it appear that way, he was. Plus the point wasn’t to show how effective he was but to show volume which proves your comment that he doesn’t run PnR’s as being totally incorrect.

Also PnR ball handler tracking stats don't include PnR-like actions. Which is exactlywhy you have to add DRIVE stats. They include things like screen hand offs etc, which give a more complete context of his interplay with Vucevic and what type of actions he IS effective at.

Further, I pointed out how absurd it is to draw a distinction between starters

No you didn't, all you did was clutter and drown out what is relevant. Obviously something you are trying to hide to keep that ridiculous pov.

[RookieStar]

Read on Twitter

Wohhhoooo.. Mario said he will be there as well right?


Might as well get Tiger to sit at courtside as well

[ezzzp]

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[fklt]

guys guys, please.

[rcklsscognition]

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[OrlandO]

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We didn't even play them together much. Waited until 5 minutes left in the 1st and 3rd quarters to bring in Ross. Can't do that on a night where the team is bricking everything. We're making it too easy on their defense by splitting up Vuc/Ross most of the time through 3 quarters.