AG's Regular Season Review: Still improving, how much more runway?

[yoyojw17]

No joke.... i had a dream that our players took it to another level we haven't seen before when they take the court in the playoffs...

like they all hit the court in toronto and showed themselves go Super Saiyan

This is gonna be a fun series!

[MagicMatic]

Glad to see you come out of your hole after the team made the playoffs. You were reeeeeeeeally quiet for a while haha. Thanks for not contributing anything meaningful to the discussion. Had to give you your shoutout on that.

I posted a number of times about making the playoffs. Thanks. Glad I’m still on your mind. You are after all the arbiter for what magic fans should think and say.

Haha oh you did? Must have missed those.

On cue though, you’re coming out loud and proud in a thread criticizing one of our guys. Not at all surprised.

And you’re not on anyone’s mind partner. You quote with a little personal jab and then run behind someone else’s post like a true hater hype man. Your little posts that include direct and veiled insults are actually amusing—I laugh about people like you with some buddies of mine that post here.

Classic front runner fan. Enjoy the playoffs if you can manage to do so. Lol

Lol cute, and to think you actually blocked me because you're so weak minded that you can’t handle someone’s opinions on a forum.

It’s funny I didn’t even contribute to this thread in a way that I would usually, considering I’ve been outspoken about AG more than anyone on this forum. Just mirroring the same jab you made toward Knightro in the intro to your own post lol. Carry on using your classic holier-than-thou tone and telling other fans that their opinions are lesser because they feel differently.

I’ll be enjoying the playoffs regardless of what you think.

[Dmagic]

AG has a lot of potential left. Throw in this year's post season and the confidence he's got from cliff this year as far as seeing his own versatility. I expect him to at least be dunking on people nore next year. And more trips to the line.

[EAS Law]

I posted a number of times about making the playoffs. Thanks. Glad I’m still on your mind. You are after all the arbiter for what magic fans should think and say.

Haha oh you did? Must have missed those.

On cue though, you’re coming out loud and proud in a thread criticizing one of our guys. Not at all surprised.

And you’re not on anyone’s mind partner. You quote with a little personal jab and then run behind someone else’s post like a true hater hype man. Your little posts that include direct and veiled insults are actually amusing—I laugh about people like you with some buddies of mine that post here.

Classic front runner fan. Enjoy the playoffs if you can manage to do so. Lol

Lol cute, and to think you actually blocked me because you're so weak minded that you can’t handle someone’s opinions on a forum.

It’s funny I didn’t even contribute to this thread in a way that I would usually, considering I’ve been outspoken about AG more than anyone on this forum. Just mirroring the same jab you made toward Knightro in the intro to your own post lol. Carry on using your classic holier-than-thou tone and telling other fans that their opinions are lesser because they feel differently.

I blocked you because you literally add nothing of value to any conversation I’ve ever seen. You go out of your way to attack anyone that happens to disagree that the whole team hopelessly sucks, and then change the goal posts every time someone shuts you TF up.

I disagree with posters like Pepe all the time and OrlandoNed who usually aren’t the rosiest about the team, but damn I respect the fact that they post with actual substance or usually don’t immediately insult and then change the topic like a child whenever they’re proven wrong.

I have no problem engaging you when you quote me because your posts are usually nothing more than insults or jumping on whatever criticism someone else has come up with about the team and banging the drum that everything about the Magic is hopeless. You can have your opinion, but if you get this tight anytime I post, then keep your little thumbs close and stop quoting me.

[MagicMatic]

Haha oh you did? Must have missed those.

On cue though, you’re coming out loud and proud in a thread criticizing one of our guys. Not at all surprised.

And you’re not on anyone’s mind partner. You quote with a little personal jab and then run behind someone else’s post like a true hater hype man. Your little posts that include direct and veiled insults are actually amusing—I laugh about people like you with some buddies of mine that post here.

Classic front runner fan. Enjoy the playoffs if you can manage to do so. Lol

Lol cute, and to think you actually blocked me because you're so weak minded that you can’t handle someone’s opinions on a forum.

It’s funny I didn’t even contribute to this thread in a way that I would usually, considering I’ve been outspoken about AG more than anyone on this forum. Just mirroring the same jab you made toward Knightro in the intro to your own post lol. Carry on using your classic holier-than-thou tone and telling other fans that their opinions are lesser because they feel differently.

I blocked you because you literally add nothing of value to any conversation I’ve ever seen. You go out of your way to attack anyone that happens to disagree that the whole team hopelessly sucks, and then change the goal posts every time someone shuts you TF up.

I disagree with posters like Pepe all the time and OrlandoNed who usually aren’t the rosiest about the team, but damn I respect the fact that they post with actual substance or usually don’t immediately insult and then change the topic like a child whenever they’re proven wrong.

I have no problem engaging you when you quote me because your posts are usually nothing more than insults or jumping on whatever criticism someone else has come up with about the team and banging the drum that everything about the Magic is hopeless. You can have your opinion, but if you get this tight anytime I post, then keep your little thumbs close and stop quoting me.

I think the overwhelming majority would disagree with the statement that I provide nothing to this forum, but go ahead believing it if you want to prove a point to yourself.

It’s amazing that you will go out of your way and post multiple paragraphs off topic to single me out while thinking this.

[EAS Law]

Lol cute, and to think you actually blocked me because you're so weak minded that you can’t handle someone’s opinions on a forum.

It’s funny I didn’t even contribute to this thread in a way that I would usually, considering I’ve been outspoken about AG more than anyone on this forum. Just mirroring the same jab you made toward Knightro in the intro to your own post lol. Carry on using your classic holier-than-thou tone and telling other fans that their opinions are lesser because they feel differently.

I blocked you because you literally add nothing of value to any conversation I’ve ever seen. You go out of your way to attack anyone that happens to disagree that the whole team hopelessly sucks, and then change the goal posts every time someone shuts you TF up.

I disagree with posters like Pepe all the time and OrlandoNed who usually aren’t the rosiest about the team, but damn I respect the fact that they post with actual substance or usually don’t immediately insult and then change the topic like a child whenever they’re proven wrong.

I have no problem engaging you when you quote me because your posts are usually nothing more than insults or jumping on whatever criticism someone else has come up with about the team and banging the drum that everything about the Magic is hopeless. You can have your opinion, but if you get this tight anytime I post, then keep your little thumbs close and stop quoting me.

I think the overwhelming majority would disagree with the statement that I provide nothing to this forum, but go ahead believing it if you want to prove a point to yourself.

It’s amazing that you will go out of your way and post multiple paragraphs off topic to single me out while thinking this.

What’s amazing is you won’t STFU about an issue that you instigated here and then cry victim. I was talking about Aaron Gordon’s stats with Knightro and you had to inject yourself into the discussion with a 1st grade sarcastic comment.

Like I said, leave me TF out of your quote box and we have no issues. Go post with all of your followers that allegedly think you’ve got some insight. I’m not one of them.

[MagicMatic]

So sensitive.




Anyway. Go Magic.

[BadHombre]

Haha oh you did? Must have missed those.

On cue though, you’re coming out loud and proud in a thread criticizing one of our guys. Not at all surprised.

And you’re not on anyone’s mind partner. You quote with a little personal jab and then run behind someone else’s post like a true hater hype man. Your little posts that include direct and veiled insults are actually amusing—I laugh about people like you with some buddies of mine that post here.

Classic front runner fan. Enjoy the playoffs if you can manage to do so. Lol

Lol cute, and to think you actually blocked me because you're so weak minded that you can’t handle someone’s opinions on a forum.

It’s funny I didn’t even contribute to this thread in a way that I would usually, considering I’ve been outspoken about AG more than anyone on this forum. Just mirroring the same jab you made toward Knightro in the intro to your own post lol. Carry on using your classic holier-than-thou tone and telling other fans that their opinions are lesser because they feel differently.

I blocked you because you literally add nothing of value to any conversation I’ve ever seen. You go out of your way to attack anyone that happens to disagree that the whole team hopelessly sucks, and then change the goal posts every time someone shuts you TF up.

I disagree with posters like Pepe all the time and OrlandoNed who usually aren’t the rosiest about the team, but damn I respect the fact that they post with actual substance or usually don’t immediately insult and then change the topic like a child whenever they’re proven wrong.

I have no problem engaging you when you quote me because your posts are usually nothing more than insults or jumping on whatever criticism someone else has come up with about the team and banging the drum that everything about the Magic is hopeless. You can have your opinion, but if you get this tight anytime I post, then keep your little thumbs close and stop quoting me.

LOL! WHAT?!

I've disagreed with MagicMatic plenty on this forum, but I've always found them to be more level headed. Stubborn, sure, but level headed.

Pepe on the other hand, I got no idea how you've got respect for him. Dude is the antithesis of what you just said in that bolded quote above.

[Knightro]

Think about it this way...

It’s fair to say that Gordon is playing more within himself than ever before.

That said...

Doesn’t it stand to reason if he’s playing more within himself and not taking as many bad shots that his shooting and overall offensive efficiency should have jumped up quite a bit v. remaining flat year over year?

Or...

He could just be a below average shooter and ball handler.

[EAS Law]

I blocked you because you literally add nothing of value to any conversation I’ve ever seen. You go out of your way to attack anyone that happens to disagree that the whole team hopelessly sucks, and then change the goal posts every time someone shuts you TF up.

I disagree with posters like Pepe all the time and OrlandoNed who usually aren’t the rosiest about the team, but damn I respect the fact that they post with actual substance or usually don’t immediately insult and then change the topic like a child whenever they’re proven wrong.

I have no problem engaging you when you quote me because your posts are usually nothing more than insults or jumping on whatever criticism someone else has come up with about the team and banging the drum that everything about the Magic is hopeless. You can have your opinion, but if you get this tight anytime I post, then keep your little thumbs close and stop quoting me.

LOL! WHAT?!

I've disagreed with MagicMatic plenty on this forum, but I've always found them to be more level headed. Stubborn, sure, but level headed.

Pepe on the other hand, I got no idea how you've got respect for him. Dude is the antithesis of what you just said in that bolded quote above.

To each his own.... Pepe usually provides stats to support an argument even if he might have an agenda. I don’t think anyone else here virtually scours my posts to quote me and start arguments that amount to little more than “nah nah boo boo”.

Not trying to de-rail the thread anyway.

I’m failing to see how AG allegedly hasn’t improved despite the numbers in the categories actually being better, albeit not by a lot. I’d be happy to talk about that with anyone.

[BadHombre]

Think about it this way...

It’s fair to say that Gordon is playing more within himself than ever before.

That said...

Doesn’t it stand to reason if he’s playing more within himself and not taking as many bad shots that his shooting and overall offensive efficiency should have jumped up quite a bit v. remaining flat year over year?

Or...

He could just be a below average shooter and ball handler.

It depends on how you view his career.

In his rookie and sophomore seasons, he had limited front court touches, he rarely put the ball on the floor, and he predominantly scored off cuts and garbage points.

In his 3rd season, it was decided to put the ball in his hands more. This is, quite obviously, the brand of basketball Gordon wants to be playing moving forwards. But that also means that since he joined college, the teams he has played for have been developing him in a completely different fashion which has taken him away from being on the ball. That's 3 seasons of development where his main assignments were to run lanes and grab rebounds, as opposed to getting comfortable with handling the ball and learning how to probe and penetrate. That's a pretty big set back.

So, really, his true development didn't begin until he was 21. Since then, his ability has made small, but significant improvements. He has certainly overreached at times, largely last season, and learned the limitations on what he can get done handling the ball, and now he's simplifying that and being more intentional. Are his performances on this front star level? No. Does he make mistakes? Plenty. But overall, this development has become a benefit to the team.

He's unique in that, not many other players in the league are doing what he's doing at this level. Forwards who handle the ball and run occasional point like him are generally the superstars like Giannis/Kawhi/LeBron/Durant/Luka/Simmons/etc. The most comparable example, presently, is Tobias Harris. He was another 23 year old kid that we thought had hit his head on the ceiling of his talent, same as Oladipo. From 21-23, Harris also only showed a sub 1% improvement on his TS from season to season. Yet, now he is the #3 option on one of the strongest teams in the Eastern Conference, and was doing perfectly well as a #1 option for the Clippers prior to that.

And when you look at the shots AG is trending into favouring, that's what he's working towards. It's clear he won't go back to being a rim running garbage man, and my suspicion is because that style of play lead to him having several concussions over a handful of seasons. He's working hard to make that midrange turnaround a staple of his game. It's not a good shot at the moment, but I strongly believe that within 3 seasons he'll have it down to an efficient mark. Why? Because he's managed to bring himself up to a 35% 3pt shooter after starting his career as a 27% shooter.

The other reason I feel like Gordon can take one more big step up in his abilities, is because he finally has the right coach for it. A coach that has embraced putting him on the ball, but in a way that's not reckless and free flowing. There's much more structure and intent in what AG is doing with the ball, for himself, and for others. The coaching staff have got him favouring moves he can pull off more consistently, and once they become recognised by defenses as go to moves, that's when AG can start to add counters and other disruptors. You can already see that taking shape with his passing.

I'd have thought by now, after 7 seasons of watching developing players, that more fans would have become familiar with signs of development. As said before, we've already given up on Harris and Oladipo at 23. Most of us had given up on Vucevic not long after. Yet, here we are, with all 3 of those guys demonstrating the ability to be franchise leading contributors to playoff teams.

And people still want to put a cap on how much more Gordon can improve.

[Rainwater]

Has anybody mentioned that he has probably sacrificed his game for the good of the team? He's taking 1.5 fewer shots a game but defensively (ask coach) AG has made great strides. Totally unselfish player.

Why would he sacrifice his game? I just don't think he has the skills. This magic team needs people who can score in the worse way. Why would he hold back? If he has to hold back his skills here, what team could he actually be a star on. I honestly believe AG looks so good a lot of the time is because he plays for the magic and they lack talent, if he played for a contender i think people would realize how much of a role player the guy is. Hell, career role player Ross is the magic's second best player.

I think AG realized that the more shots he took the less efficient he was. His FG percentage was quite low last year with the number of shots he took. Its coincidence his best season, this srason, came when he played within himself.

[PrimeThyme]

So despite objective, factual numbers completely negating your point, he hasn’t improved... classic.

It may not be as much as you’d like to see to determine a breakout, but every year, he has measurably improved.

Buddy... this is false.

It is not factually accurate to say Aaron Gordon has measurably improved every year because AG’s career highs eFG% and TS% both occurred in his second season.

His shooting in year 5 was *slightly* better than years 3 and 4 and worse than year 2.

Homers will defend him regardless of numbers and actual measurables.... classic.

AG is more effective letting the game come to him as opposed to forcing everything, which go his benefit he’s slowed down on doing. He’s a complimentary player. Not necessarily a bad thing. It’s good we got him on a declining contract.

You’re better than that bro. Am I really a homer for thinking AG has improved as a overall basketball player this year? Grouping somebody as a homer to dismiss their opinion is something Pepe would do.

[BadHombre]

To each his own.... Pepe usually provides stats to support an argument even if he might have an agenda. I don’t think anyone else here virtually scours my posts to quote me and start arguments that amount to little more than “nah nah boo boo”.

Not trying to de-rail the thread anyway.

I’m failing to see how AG allegedly hasn’t improved despite the numbers in the categories actually being better, albeit not by a lot. I’d be happy to talk about that with anyone.

Those stats are about as valuable as an anti-vaxxers 'research'. They're mostly fake news designed to be contrarian on a troll worthy level. Ever notice he'll never bring a post like "oh wow, I was just looking at stats and saw [insert player] has been doing this at a surprisingly elite level". Numbers are only ever brought in to set a parameter that suits his agenda in that post.

The thing with stats on Gordon's game is that they don't really portray the change in his game. Anyone pointing to a drop off in his TS% from his 2nd season to now is either ignoring that his game has moved away from high percentage baskets under the rim, or they just haven't watched him play in a while.

This is why I said earlier on in the thread that this topic wasn't going to go anywhere constructive. By this point, everyone has either formed a pretty strong stance on what they believe Gordon to be, or they're open to him improving going forwards. I just don't understand why those who think he's tapped out would get so upset about the notion of him getting better.

[Knightro]

The thing with stats on Gordon's game is that they don't really portray the change in his game. Anyone pointing to a drop off in his TS% from his 2nd season to now is either ignoring that his game has moved away from high percentage baskets under the rim, or they just haven't watched him play in a while.

You're right in the respect that he's moved further away from the rim over the years, but I'd question if that's actually a good thing considering he's not that good of a shooter.

Gordon Year 2
45% of FG at the rim
11% of FG from 3-10 feet
9% of FG from 10-16 feet
11% of FG from 16-23 feet
25% of FG from 3PT

Gordon Year 5
33% of FG at the rim
13% of FG from 3-10 feet
12% of FG from 10-16 feet
10% of FG from 16-23 feet
33% of FG from 3PT

So Gordon's experienced a 12% drop in shots at the rim with a 4% increase in floater/midrange and 8% increase in 3PT. That 12% drop in shots at the rim has also led to a 9% drop in FT rate.

But the math really isn't working in AG's favor here. With threes obviously being worth one more point than twos, an 8% increase in 3PT rate *should* lead to a spike in eFG% and TS%, yet Gordon's actually dropped from year 2 to 5.

Why? Because Gordon's shooting at the rim is above the league average and his shooting from three and the free throw line are both below league average.

So he's sacrificing shots he's really good at in favor of more shots that he's not very good at and his overall metrics bear out that he's a less efficient shooter now than he was when he was 20 years old. How is that a positive thing overall?

[EAS Law]

To each his own.... Pepe usually provides stats to support an argument even if he might have an agenda. I don’t think anyone else here virtually scours my posts to quote me and start arguments that amount to little more than “nah nah boo boo”.

Not trying to de-rail the thread anyway.

I’m failing to see how AG allegedly hasn’t improved despite the numbers in the categories actually being better, albeit not by a lot. I’d be happy to talk about that with anyone.

Those stats are about as valuable as an anti-vaxxers 'research'. They're mostly fake news designed to be contrarian on a troll worthy level. Ever notice he'll never bring a post like "oh wow, I was just looking at stats and saw [insert player] has been doing this at a surprisingly elite level". Numbers are only ever brought in to set a parameter that suits his agenda in that post.

The thing with stats on Gordon's game is that they don't really portray the change in his game. Anyone pointing to a drop off in his TS% from his 2nd season to now is either ignoring that his game has moved away from high percentage baskets under the rim, or they just haven't watched him play in a while.

This is why I said earlier on in the thread that this topic wasn't going to go anywhere constructive. By this point, everyone has either formed a pretty strong stance on what they believe Gordon to be, or they're open to him improving going forwards. I just don't understand why those who think he's tapped out would get so upset about the notion of him getting better.

I think you make an excellent point about how we gave up on Harris and Oladipo for the same reasons. I was outspokenly part of the crowd that felt losing Harris and Dipo was of no real concern and now I look like an idiot.

AG is being used differently at this point in his career and he’s doing everything to expand his game beyond the 3. He’s often held to a standard of a star SF at times then held to a standard of a star PF at times when it’s convenient to change the argument.

Does he need to keep getting better? Absolutely. We don’t win games when he’s the primary scorer or we try to make him one. He’s just not ready for that. I DO see improvement in his 3 and FT numbers which gives me reason for optimism. His game looks fluid now too and he’s been able to avoid being another failed tweener forward. I think his future is bright.

[basketballRob]

I remember Lisa Leslie said, she told Aaron a couple months ago to use his muscles and go inside more. It seems like right after that he started looking to go inside more.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[MagicMatic]

Buddy... this is false.

It is not factually accurate to say Aaron Gordon has measurably improved every year because AG’s career highs eFG% and TS% both occurred in his second season.

His shooting in year 5 was *slightly* better than years 3 and 4 and worse than year 2.

Homers will defend him regardless of numbers and actual measurables.... classic.

AG is more effective letting the game come to him as opposed to forcing everything, which go his benefit he’s slowed down on doing. He’s a complimentary player. Not necessarily a bad thing. It’s good we got him on a declining contract.

You’re better than that bro. Am I really a homer for thinking AG has improved as a overall basketball player this year? Grouping somebody as a homer to dismiss their opinion is something Pepe would do.

I think the game has come to him in a way that makes him more efficient. That in itself is a big step for AG’s improvement. Like Knightro said, his best year was his sophomore season in the nba with better overall, more efficient, numbers playing significantly less minutes.

What HAS improved significantly in his assist numbers, particularly this season. My biggest criticism of him is his playmaking and aggressiveness on the offensive end of the floor. If he can find a way to enhance those areas of his game further it would definitely be more impressive. I don’t believe he will ever be the player to take over games or justify an all star selection with the quality of other forwards in the NBA occupying those spots.

I believe he’s improved and continues to develop. That being said, I just personally don’t believe he’s going to go that much further than where he is at currently. If he does it’ll be very beneficial for Orlando. Maybe that happens in a different system. I would venture to say probably not so much, as long as we are in a slow half court system offensively and are last in getting to the line.

[PrimeThyme]

Homers will defend him regardless of numbers and actual measurables.... classic.

AG is more effective letting the game come to him as opposed to forcing everything, which go his benefit he’s slowed down on doing. He’s a complimentary player. Not necessarily a bad thing. It’s good we got him on a declining contract.

You’re better than that bro. Am I really a homer for thinking AG has improved as a overall basketball player this year? Grouping somebody as a homer to dismiss their opinion is something Pepe would do.

I think the game has come to him in a way that makes him more efficient. That in itself is a big step for AG’s improvement. Like Knightro said, his best year was his sophomore season in the nba with better overall, more efficient, numbers playing significantly less minutes.

What HAS improved significantly in his assist numbers, particularly this season. My biggest criticism of him is his playmaking and aggressiveness on the offensive end of the floor. If he can find a way to enhance those areas of his game further it would definitely be more impressive. I don’t believe he will ever be the player to take over games or justify an all star selection with the quality of other forwards in the NBA occupying those spots.

I believe he’s improved and continues to develop. That being said, I just personally don’t believe he’s going to go that much further than where he is at currently. If he does it’ll be very beneficial for Orlando. Maybe that happens in a different system. I would venture to say probably not so much, as long as we are in a slow half court system offensively and are last in getting to the line.

Your opinion on AG isn't why I quoted you. You make it known quite often how you feel about AG so I don't need clarification on your stance. I quoted you because of you labeling people with differing opinions than you "homers". That's just lazy.

[Knightro]

I think the game has come to him in a way that makes him more efficient. That in itself is a big step for AG’s improvement. Like Knightro said, his best year was his sophomore season in the nba with better overall, more efficient, numbers playing significantly less minutes.

What HAS improved significantly in his assist numbers, particularly this season. My biggest criticism of him is his playmaking and aggressiveness on the offensive end of the floor. If he can find a way to enhance those areas of his game further it would definitely be more impressive. I don’t believe he will ever be the player to take over games or justify an all star selection with the quality of other forwards in the NBA occupying those spots.

I believe he’s improved and continues to develop. That being said, I just personally don’t believe he’s going to go that much further than where he is at currently. If he does it’ll be very beneficial for Orlando. Maybe that happens in a different system. I would venture to say probably not so much, as long as we are in a slow half court system offensively and are last in getting to the line.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

I like Gordon. He's a nice kid and he works hard. He holds up defensively and he's solid enough offensively.

I just don't see this untapped potential that a lot you folks seem to see. Just because he's only 23 doesn't mean there's still some major development left for him to do.

5 years in and he's still a below average shooter.

5 years in and he's still a below average ball handler.

I think it's possible that his shooting could continue to marginally improve to league average or maybe even slightly above average, but I don't really see the ball handling chops ever developing to the point where he's a primary offensive threat.

I'll said what I said several times earlier in the thread. Aaron Gordon is a solid, unspectacular basketball player on a fair contract. He's not a star, unlikely he's ever going to be a star, but he's a solid pro.