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Mo Bamba's future with Orlando?

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Re: Mo Bamba's future with Orlando? 

Post#141 » by Skin » Tue May 14, 2019 11:18 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Skin wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
My comment had little to do with Bamba, but with him shooting. And bigs shooting 3s.
Much like 99% of the bigs, he should not be shootig 3s until he learns how to shoot in general, but even learning how to shoot, with addition of muscles in his arms, probably won't be most cost and time efficient thing to. Knowing how much things he has to work on first , like adding strenght ,muscles, post moves, setting screens, pick&roll movment, strenght, stamina and durability in legs...

Also if you drafted 7'10 wingspan center who is 7'1 , to shoot 3s than you are out of your mind or you want to challenge Billy King as worst GM in basketball history.
It's like drafting Iverson to decide to use him as post up center ... LIke , what an actual f**k?

I guess your'e not really in tune with the direction the league is going...



You need your team to shoot 3s, but you don't need every player on your roster to shoot them, but ones who are good at it.
That's my problem with this. It's style over substance ( and logic) . Why would you want bad shooter to shoot more if he can improve on things he is actually decent at ?

Again,why draft 7'10 wingspan , 7 footer if your goal is to have him do nothing with that size but shoot 3s? Why not just trade pick for Markkanen ( or Turner ) who you at least know is capable of doing it? Or trading all the way out of lottery for Mo Wagner, who was decent college 3 point shooter?

As i said, 3 point frenzy for Cs is mirror lunacy of " rim protection" frenzy from few years ago. Just bunch of copycats that see something works for contender so try to mimic it by failing to understand it works because other, fundamental differences like difference between best player being Giannis and second best being MIddleton, vs best player being Gordon and second best player being Ross/ Fournier( assuming in this converstation Vuc is gone ).

Funniest part about "streach bigs" is that become popualr after Bosh sucess with Heat. I guess people forgot that two other guys from that roster... That LeSomething guy and Dw..retired one ... No biggy...It has been Bosh 3 point shooting that carried them, not 60 ppg combined from wings that could not shoot

Why you gotta go that far? You obviously know that nobody is arguing that. Arguing that it's a part of his game that he should develop IS NOT saying that's the ONLY thing he should do. Yes, he should improve on scoring inside and all parts of his game. The fact that he has the confidence to shoot from 3 only broadens his scope of possibilities.
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Re: Mo Bamba's future with Orlando? 

Post#142 » by Bensational » Tue May 14, 2019 11:44 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Skin wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
My comment had little to do with Bamba, but with him shooting. And bigs shooting 3s.
Much like 99% of the bigs, he should not be shootig 3s until he learns how to shoot in general, but even learning how to shoot, with addition of muscles in his arms, probably won't be most cost and time efficient thing to. Knowing how much things he has to work on first , like adding strenght ,muscles, post moves, setting screens, pick&roll movment, strenght, stamina and durability in legs...

Also if you drafted 7'10 wingspan center who is 7'1 , to shoot 3s than you are out of your mind or you want to challenge Billy King as worst GM in basketball history.
It's like drafting Iverson to decide to use him as post up center ... LIke , what an actual f**k?

I guess your'e not really in tune with the direction the league is going...



You need your team to shoot 3s, but you don't need every player on your roster to shoot them, but ones who are good at it.
That's my problem with this. It's style over substance ( and logic) . Why would you want bad shooter to shoot more if he can improve on things he is actually decent at ?

Again,why draft 7'10 wingspan , 7 footer if your goal is to have him do nothing with that size but shoot 3s? Why not just trade pick for Markkanen ( or Turner ) who you at least know is capable of doing it? Or trading all the way out of lottery for Mo Wagner, who was decent college 3 point shooter?

As i said, 3 point frenzy for Cs is mirror lunacy of " rim protection" frenzy from few years ago. Just bunch of copycats that see something works for contender so try to mimic it by failing to understand it works because other, fundamental differences like difference between best player being Giannis and second best being MIddleton, vs best player being Gordon and second best player being Ross/ Fournier( assuming in this converstation Vuc is gone ).

Funniest part about "streach bigs" is that become popualr after Bosh sucess with Heat. I guess people forgot that two other guys from that roster... That LeSomething guy and Dw..retired one ... No biggy...It has been Bosh 3 point shooting that carried them, not 60 ppg combined from wings that could not shoot



Interesting question of offensive philosophy there. I have a hunch that the movement towards 3pt shooting/spacing bigs could be based off of data. I don't have the ability to do a comparative search, but if you could compare lineups between post based C and a 3pt spacing C, that spacing bigs show to have a better net influence in lineups.

Like, if you've got a post based C camped down in the paint, he could/should be capable of close range shots at a high %, (say 50-70%). But on plays where he's not shooting, his presence means the C is more likely to contest on perimeter players driving.

But with a 3pt shooting big, you're trading efficiency from a 50-70% shot for a 30-40% 3pt shot. But now the paint is more open for perimeter players to attack, and perhaps their %'s rise with less competition on drives. So whilst the C's numbers dip slightly, it's still a net positive on the rest of the lineup.

I'll have to see if there are numbers there to corroborate that though. Got nothing to back it on.
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Re: Mo Bamba's future with Orlando? 

Post#143 » by pepe1991 » Wed May 15, 2019 5:22 am

Skin wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Skin wrote:I guess your'e not really in tune with the direction the league is going...



You need your team to shoot 3s, but you don't need every player on your roster to shoot them, but ones who are good at it.
That's my problem with this. It's style over substance ( and logic) . Why would you want bad shooter to shoot more if he can improve on things he is actually decent at ?

Again,why draft 7'10 wingspan , 7 footer if your goal is to have him do nothing with that size but shoot 3s? Why not just trade pick for Markkanen ( or Turner ) who you at least know is capable of doing it? Or trading all the way out of lottery for Mo Wagner, who was decent college 3 point shooter?

As i said, 3 point frenzy for Cs is mirror lunacy of " rim protection" frenzy from few years ago. Just bunch of copycats that see something works for contender so try to mimic it by failing to understand it works because other, fundamental differences like difference between best player being Giannis and second best being MIddleton, vs best player being Gordon and second best player being Ross/ Fournier( assuming in this converstation Vuc is gone ).

Funniest part about "streach bigs" is that become popualr after Bosh sucess with Heat. I guess people forgot that two other guys from that roster... That LeSomething guy and Dw..retired one ... No biggy...It has been Bosh 3 point shooting that carried them, not 60 ppg combined from wings that could not shoot

Why you gotta go that far? You obviously know that nobody is arguing that. Arguing that it's a part of his game that he should develop IS NOT saying that's the ONLY thing he should do. Yes, he should improve on scoring inside and all parts of his game. The fact that he has the confidence to shoot from 3 only broadens his scope of possibilities.


I told Soul that it's not about Bamba but philosophy to me when it comes to focusing on something else for big man to develop first.
Than ,down the road, once he establishes himself as good post player, capable scorer of pick& roll ( set play he'll play basically every possession of every game ) he can expend his shooting . But his shooting has to start with improved FT% .

That's pretty much it, no knock on Bamba, more knock on what nowdays Cs want to be. Spot up shooters, who seems to only work for teams that are already elite with or without their shooting.
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Re: Mo Bamba's future with Orlando? 

Post#144 » by pepe1991 » Wed May 15, 2019 6:42 am

Bensational wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Skin wrote:I guess your'e not really in tune with the direction the league is going...



You need your team to shoot 3s, but you don't need every player on your roster to shoot them, but ones who are good at it.
That's my problem with this. It's style over substance ( and logic) . Why would you want bad shooter to shoot more if he can improve on things he is actually decent at ?

Again,why draft 7'10 wingspan , 7 footer if your goal is to have him do nothing with that size but shoot 3s? Why not just trade pick for Markkanen ( or Turner ) who you at least know is capable of doing it? Or trading all the way out of lottery for Mo Wagner, who was decent college 3 point shooter?

As i said, 3 point frenzy for Cs is mirror lunacy of " rim protection" frenzy from few years ago. Just bunch of copycats that see something works for contender so try to mimic it by failing to understand it works because other, fundamental differences like difference between best player being Giannis and second best being MIddleton, vs best player being Gordon and second best player being Ross/ Fournier( assuming in this converstation Vuc is gone ).

Funniest part about "streach bigs" is that become popualr after Bosh sucess with Heat. I guess people forgot that two other guys from that roster... That LeSomething guy and Dw..retired one ... No biggy...It has been Bosh 3 point shooting that carried them, not 60 ppg combined from wings that could not shoot



Interesting question of offensive philosophy there. I have a hunch that the movement towards 3pt shooting/spacing bigs could be based off of data. I don't have the ability to do a comparative search, but if you could compare lineups between post based C and a 3pt spacing C, that spacing bigs show to have a better net influence in lineups.

Like, if you've got a post based C camped down in the paint, he could/should be capable of close range shots at a high %, (say 50-70%). But on plays where he's not shooting, his presence means the C is more likely to contest on perimeter players driving.

But with a 3pt shooting big, you're trading efficiency from a 50-70% shot for a 30-40% 3pt shot. But now the paint is more open for perimeter players to attack, and perhaps their %'s rise with less competition on drives. So whilst the C's numbers dip slightly, it's still a net positive on the rest of the lineup.

I'll have to see if there are numbers there to corroborate that though. Got nothing to back it on.


But with a 3pt shooting big, you're trading efficiency from a 50-70% shot for a 30-40% 3pt shot. But now the paint is more open for perimeter players to attack, and perhaps their %'s rise with less competition on drives. So whilst the C's numbers dip slightly, it's still a net positive on the rest of the lineup.

Indeed. That's why i said their success or failure rate is tied with sucess of a team more than their individual performance. Pretty much comes down to ability or inablity of others to take adventage of them streaching floor.
I went through some popular names and their shooting and compared off rating of their teams before and after they started shoot 3s.
And OFF rating on that teams did improve a bit, but relative to the league it didn't give any dramatic results.

Last night i had Bamba's eficciency if he never took 3, but i didn't save anywhere but i remember things being like:
48% FG, 53,9% TS, 52,5% eFG with him shooting 3s ( 28% of all shots were 3s )
55,5% FG, 57% TS, 55,5% eFG if he never took single 3 whole season.

Thing with Bamba is that he is so damn long that it's almost expectable for him to shoot 70% around rim.
Over 100 possessions him shooting 3s and him finishig around rim you are trading 90-99 points for 3 ( 30-33% )
with 140 points if he keeps shooting 70% but, he shot 78,8% from point blank range. So with him shooting 3s you are trading 99points over 100 poss to 157,6 points around rim.
Well, we all know real game does not work like that ,but it's still huge swing. Being around rim will also produce in more fouls in your favor (granted , more turnovers as well ).
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Re: Mo Bamba's future with Orlando? 

Post#145 » by zaymon » Wed May 15, 2019 10:45 am

We dont want Mo to be our primary creator. Right now its not about shots he makes, but more about where he stands, how mobile he is. You wont draw plays for Bamba to score in the paint you just wont. Its hard enough with Vucevic and he is bigger, smarter, better passer. If Bamba is useful inside the paint he must score or rebound, if he stands behind 3 point line he is useful just standing. If you add screens, cuts he becomes really valuable without even touching the ball. Those % you wrote are mostly second chance points but standing near the rim he lowers the % driving players are getting so in the end you lose more than you gain.
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Re: Mo Bamba's future with Orlando? 

Post#146 » by BadMofoPimp » Wed May 15, 2019 11:19 am

Skin wrote:Bamba is just a little pup. IF he becomes a force pepe will change his mind.


FIXED!

And, thats a big IF!
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Re: Mo Bamba's future with Orlando? 

Post#147 » by pepe1991 » Wed May 15, 2019 11:32 am

BadMofoPimp wrote:
Skin wrote:Bamba is just a little pup. IF he becomes a force pepe will change his mind.


FIXED!

And, thats a big IF!


I didn't even say anything negative about Bamba, just that he should foucs on other aspects of his game first, than over time work on his shooting.
Strenght, muscle, conditioning, some minor post moves, pick&roll are all more important right now than his 3 ball.
He can still shoot 3s from time to time but it can't be 30% of his offense as it is now.

Just like Isaac's offense can't be 44% of all shots from 3 point line.

It's just development in wrong direction, going against things they are good at and not maximasing what player could and shoudl be, over something you want him to be.

It's like having Lebron or Jordan and forcing them to be 3 point specialists. You could do it over time ,but it's collosal waste of time and talent.

If you want 3 ponit shooting, just draft/sign/trade for players who are good at from begin with.
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Re: Mo Bamba's future with Orlando? 

Post#148 » by BadMofoPimp » Wed May 15, 2019 11:34 am

pepe1991 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
Skin wrote:Bamba is just a little pup. IF he becomes a force pepe will change his mind.


FIXED!

And, thats a big IF!


I didn't even say anything negative about Bamba, just that he should foucs on other aspects of his game first, than over time work on his shooting.
Strenght, muscle, conditioning, some minor post moves, pick&roll are all more important right now than his 3 ball.
He can still shoot 3s from time to time but it can't be 30% of his offense as it is now.

Just like Isaac's offense can't be 44% of all shots from 3 point line.

It's just development in wrong direction, going against things they are good at and not maximasing what player could be, over something you want him to be.

It's like having Lebron and forcing him to be 3 point specialist. You could do it over time ,but it's collosal waste of time and talent.


As skinny as Bamba is, he won't be a solid pick setting player for a long time. Also, if his only offense is shooting 3's in the mid 30's once he gets better at that, then he will be more Channing Frye than Dwight. Because, his defense has not lived up to hype so far. I sure hope he proves us all wrong or right, but that is up to Bamba as he has all the tools.
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Re: Mo Bamba's future with Orlando? 

Post#149 » by MagicFrenchie » Wed May 15, 2019 12:16 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
Skin wrote:Bamba is just a little pup. IF he becomes a force pepe will change his mind.


FIXED!

And, thats a big IF!


I didn't even say anything negative about Bamba, just that he should foucs on other aspects of his game first, than over time work on his shooting.
Strenght, muscle, conditioning, some minor post moves, pick&roll are all more important right now than his 3 ball.
He can still shoot 3s from time to time but it can't be 30% of his offense as it is now.

Just like Isaac's offense can't be 44% of all shots from 3 point line.

It's just development in wrong direction, going against things they are good at and not maximasing what player could and shoudl be, over something you want him to be.

It's like having Lebron or Jordan and forcing them to be 3 point specialists. You could do it over time ,but it's collosal waste of time and talent.

If you want 3 ponit shooting, just draft/sign/trade for players who are good at from begin with.


100% agree. The main concern for him should be condtioning/strenght. He got size and wingspan, strengthen those tools and this could be a weapon.
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Re: Mo Bamba's future with Orlando? 

Post#150 » by Blue_and_Whte » Wed May 15, 2019 12:28 pm

MagicFrenchie wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
FIXED!

And, thats a big IF!


I didn't even say anything negative about Bamba, just that he should foucs on other aspects of his game first, than over time work on his shooting.
Strenght, muscle, conditioning, some minor post moves, pick&roll are all more important right now than his 3 ball.
He can still shoot 3s from time to time but it can't be 30% of his offense as it is now.

Just like Isaac's offense can't be 44% of all shots from 3 point line.

It's just development in wrong direction, going against things they are good at and not maximasing what player could and shoudl be, over something you want him to be.

It's like having Lebron or Jordan and forcing them to be 3 point specialists. You could do it over time ,but it's collosal waste of time and talent.

If you want 3 ponit shooting, just draft/sign/trade for players who are good at from begin with.


100% agree. The main concern for him should be condtioning/strenght. He got size and wingspan, strengthen those tools and this could be a weapon.

He can add all the strength he wants, his defensive instinct is....lacking to say the least. Right now his game isn’t much different than Niks, setting screens and rolling to the high post for jumpers.. but of course that’s suddenly a widely accepted shot. He’ll get better.. but a force? We’ll see
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Re: Mo Bamba's future with Orlando? 

Post#151 » by zaymon » Wed May 15, 2019 12:57 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
Skin wrote:Bamba is just a little pup. IF he becomes a force pepe will change his mind.


FIXED!

And, thats a big IF!


I didn't even say anything negative about Bamba, just that he should foucs on other aspects of his game first, than over time work on his shooting.
Strenght, muscle, conditioning, some minor post moves, pick&roll are all more important right now than his 3 ball.
He can still shoot 3s from time to time but it can't be 30% of his offense as it is now.

Just like Isaac's offense can't be 44% of all shots from 3 point line.

It's just development in wrong direction, going against things they are good at and not maximasing what player could and shoudl be, over something you want him to be.

It's like having Lebron or Jordan and forcing them to be 3 point specialists. You could do it over time ,but it's collosal waste of time and talent.

If you want 3 ponit shooting, just draft/sign/trade for players who are good at from begin with.

I dont agree here with you pepe, just as i wrote in my other post. Lebron is primary creator, you cant compare his role to Bamba. Mo cant score in the paint, cant pass out of it. If he stands there he is just messing with spacing. If he want to rebound he can cut from the 3 point line.
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Re: Mo Bamba's future with Orlando? 

Post#152 » by BadMofoPimp » Wed May 15, 2019 2:06 pm

I am not saying Mo ain't going to be great, but he has to start proving it before I will start blindingly singing his praise.
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Re: Mo Bamba's future with Orlando? 

Post#153 » by Skin » Wed May 15, 2019 5:32 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:I am not saying Mo ain't going to be great, but he has to start proving it before I will start blindingly singing his praise.

This is the same thought process that infected our forum when people prematurely soured on Oladipo. "He can't finish" ... "He can't shoot" ... "His defense is overrated" ... This whole "I gotta see it before I believe it" crap on young players is quite simply ridiculous.

Believing in a player because your scouting eye is telling you something is not blindly singing praise. ...and that goes both ways... if you believe your scouting eye is telling you he's gonna suck, then run with it... but I wouldn't call that blind either. You're either right or wrong... but at least you take a stance... it takes zero skill to follow historical stats and let that determine your opinion.

Mo will be an elite level player in this league. That's my stance.
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Re: Mo Bamba's future with Orlando? 

Post#154 » by BadMofoPimp » Wed May 15, 2019 6:49 pm

Skin wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:I am not saying Mo ain't going to be great, but he has to start proving it before I will start blindingly singing his praise.

This is the same thought process that infected our forum when people prematurely soured on Oladipo. "He can't finish" ... "He can't shoot" ... "His defense is overrated" ... This whole "I gotta see it before I believe it" crap on young players is quite simply ridiculous.

Believing in a player because your scouting eye is telling you something is not blindly singing praise. ...and that goes both ways... if you believe your scouting eye is telling you he's gonna suck, then run with it... but I wouldn't call that blind either. You're either right or wrong... but at least you take a stance... it takes zero skill to follow historical stats and let that determine your opinion.

Mo will be an elite level player in this league. That's my stance.


And Mario and Elf as well!!!

Not everyone is destined to be Dwight. I like your enthusiasm, but even Elf and Mario showed more than Bamba in their rookie seasons.
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Re: Mo Bamba's future with Orlando? 

Post#155 » by Skin » Wed May 15, 2019 7:09 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:
Skin wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:I am not saying Mo ain't going to be great, but he has to start proving it before I will start blindingly singing his praise.

This is the same thought process that infected our forum when people prematurely soured on Oladipo. "He can't finish" ... "He can't shoot" ... "His defense is overrated" ... This whole "I gotta see it before I believe it" crap on young players is quite simply ridiculous.

Believing in a player because your scouting eye is telling you something is not blindly singing praise. ...and that goes both ways... if you believe your scouting eye is telling you he's gonna suck, then run with it... but I wouldn't call that blind either. You're either right or wrong... but at least you take a stance... it takes zero skill to follow historical stats and let that determine your opinion.

Mo will be an elite level player in this league. That's my stance.


And Mario and Elf as well!!!

Not everyone is destined to be Dwight. I like your enthusiasm, but even Elf and Mario showed more than Bamba in their rookie seasons.

I was never impressed with Mario. Not even in flashes. I was passionate that he would be bust.

I tried to give Elf a chance. I didn't want to be too critical too early. I applauded his good games, but I could never fully get on board as long as his shooting remained an issue. I don't think I treated him unfairly until the last couple years he was with us and things hadn't changed.

Bamba's inexperience and developing body are the only things holding him back and he has the mindset, work ethic and athleticism to improve. Love that he has a mentor in KG. Bamba will be a huge part of Orlando's future.
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Re: Mo Bamba's future with Orlando? 

Post#156 » by pepe1991 » Wed May 15, 2019 7:31 pm

zaymon wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
FIXED!

And, thats a big IF!


I didn't even say anything negative about Bamba, just that he should foucs on other aspects of his game first, than over time work on his shooting.
Strenght, muscle, conditioning, some minor post moves, pick&roll are all more important right now than his 3 ball.
He can still shoot 3s from time to time but it can't be 30% of his offense as it is now.

Just like Isaac's offense can't be 44% of all shots from 3 point line.

It's just development in wrong direction, going against things they are good at and not maximasing what player could and shoudl be, over something you want him to be.

It's like having Lebron or Jordan and forcing them to be 3 point specialists. You could do it over time ,but it's collosal waste of time and talent.

If you want 3 ponit shooting, just draft/sign/trade for players who are good at from begin with.

I dont agree here with you pepe, just as i wrote in my other post. Lebron is primary creator, you cant compare his role to Bamba. Mo cant score in the paint, cant pass out of it. If he stands there he is just messing with spacing. If he want to rebound he can cut from the 3 point line.


At college 18,8% of all his FGA were 3s.
In nba that went up to 28% for zero logical reasons why, given that he was putrid shooter all across the board , including 3 point line, FT line and any shots outside paint from mid range.

Mo would have better shot at scoring around rim and playing pick&roll than camping at 3 point line where he also can't pass, and nobody guards him so he doesn't really streach the floor. Just stands there without any purpose.

Mo scored 76 points from pick&roll according to nba.com and his FG% was pretty impressive 50% FG ( 58% eFG) for a rookie. Compared to Gordon and Isaac he is already couple of light years ahead of them , mostly because of size adventage.
His FT% frequency is 18,8%
For example Gordon is shooting 13-32 ( 37%) as rolling big man in P&R. FT Freq 11,8%
Isaac is even worst , 7-23 ( 30%) FT Freq 4% .

This is not small sample size if you know that he didn't play many games and that he only played between 15 and 20 mpg.

All signs lean toward conclusion i pointed out yesterday ( not because i come out from nowhere with it, rather did some dig ups )- Bamba should focus more on pick&roll /strenght/ conditioning rather than trying to become shooting big.
Key word here is focus. It doesn't mean he has to stop shoot 3s, but 3s should not be big focus of his summer this year.


Isaac is similar .
Isaac attempted 266 3-pointers this season, hitting on a poor 32.3 percent of them. Overall, 109 NBA players attempted at least 266 threes this season, and Isaac was the seventh-worst 3-point shooter of those 109 players
At this point there is no reason why 44% of all his FGA are 3s when he is still doesn't keep defense honest and does not streach the floor.

Maybe their strenghts are not as clear as Lebron's playmaking is, but for sure their strenghts are not shooting witch thies in my second point: if you want shooters than draft shooters , not long defenders.
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Re: Mo Bamba's future with Orlando? 

Post#157 » by Skin » Wed May 15, 2019 8:13 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
zaymon wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
I didn't even say anything negative about Bamba, just that he should foucs on other aspects of his game first, than over time work on his shooting.
Strenght, muscle, conditioning, some minor post moves, pick&roll are all more important right now than his 3 ball.
He can still shoot 3s from time to time but it can't be 30% of his offense as it is now.

Just like Isaac's offense can't be 44% of all shots from 3 point line.

It's just development in wrong direction, going against things they are good at and not maximasing what player could and shoudl be, over something you want him to be.

It's like having Lebron or Jordan and forcing them to be 3 point specialists. You could do it over time ,but it's collosal waste of time and talent.

If you want 3 ponit shooting, just draft/sign/trade for players who are good at from begin with.

I dont agree here with you pepe, just as i wrote in my other post. Lebron is primary creator, you cant compare his role to Bamba. Mo cant score in the paint, cant pass out of it. If he stands there he is just messing with spacing. If he want to rebound he can cut from the 3 point line.


At college 18,8% of all his FGA were 3s.
In nba that went up to 28% for zero logical reasons why, given that he was putrid shooter all across the board , including 3 point line, FT line and any shots outside paint from mid range.

Mo would have better shot at scoring around rim and playing pick&roll than camping at 3 point line where he also can't pass, and nobody guards him so he doesn't really streach the floor. Just stands there without any purpose.

Mo scored 76 points from pick&roll according to nba.com and his FG% was pretty impressive 50% FG ( 58% eFG) for a rookie. Compared to Gordon and Isaac he is already couple of light years ahead of them , mostly because of size adventage.
His FT% frequency is 18,8%
For example Gordon is shooting 13-32 ( 37%) as rolling big man in P&R. FT Freq 11,8%
Isaac is even worst , 7-23 ( 30%) FT Freq 4% .

This is not small sample size if you know that he didn't play many games and that he only played between 15 and 20 mpg.

All signs lean toward conclusion i pointed out yesterday ( not because i come out from nowhere with it, rather did some dig ups )- Bamba should focus more on pick&roll /strenght/ conditioning rather than trying to become shooting big.
Key word here is focus. It doesn't mean he has to stop shoot 3s, but 3s should not be big focus of his summer this year.


Isaac is similar .
Isaac attempted 266 3-pointers this season, hitting on a poor 32.3 percent of them. Overall, 109 NBA players attempted at least 266 threes this season, and Isaac was the seventh-worst 3-point shooter of those 109 players
At this point there is no reason why 44% of all his FGA are 3s when he is still doesn't keep defense honest and does not streach the floor.

Maybe their strenghts are not as clear as Lebron's playmaking is, but for sure their strenghts are not shooting witch thies in my second point: if you want shooters than draft shooters , not long defenders.

Nobody will disagree that Bamba needs to bulk up and improve his conditioning. As far as his game development goes, he's got to work on every part of his game. PnR is harder to practice in individual workouts... but hopefully he does have trainers or other players he works out with to assist with that. Individually, he can work on his shooting, finding his sweet spots, developing go to moves with the ball in his hands, etc. Lots of growth ahead of him and he knows it.

You can complain about the efficiencies of Bamba and Isaac, but you also have to remember that the way Clifford coaches, he assigns each player a role and that's the role they play. If they are doing something it's because that's what they are being asked to do within the system and construct of what Clifford envisions for the team and the individual.

This was just Isaac's second year, and it could almost qualify as a repeat rookie year. I think his main scoring assignment was simple... hit the corner 3 or drive to the baseline and score... next year, hopefully he'll start to master it and grow into more.
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Re: Mo Bamba's future with Orlando? 

Post#158 » by zaymon » Wed May 15, 2019 8:40 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
zaymon wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
I didn't even say anything negative about Bamba, just that he should foucs on other aspects of his game first, than over time work on his shooting.
Strenght, muscle, conditioning, some minor post moves, pick&roll are all more important right now than his 3 ball.
He can still shoot 3s from time to time but it can't be 30% of his offense as it is now.

Just like Isaac's offense can't be 44% of all shots from 3 point line.

It's just development in wrong direction, going against things they are good at and not maximasing what player could and shoudl be, over something you want him to be.

It's like having Lebron or Jordan and forcing them to be 3 point specialists. You could do it over time ,but it's collosal waste of time and talent.

If you want 3 ponit shooting, just draft/sign/trade for players who are good at from begin with.

I dont agree here with you pepe, just as i wrote in my other post. Lebron is primary creator, you cant compare his role to Bamba. Mo cant score in the paint, cant pass out of it. If he stands there he is just messing with spacing. If he want to rebound he can cut from the 3 point line.


At college 18,8% of all his FGA were 3s.
In nba that went up to 28% for zero logical reasons why, given that he was putrid shooter all across the board , including 3 point line, FT line and any shots outside paint from mid range.

Mo would have better shot at scoring around rim and playing pick&roll than camping at 3 point line where he also can't pass, and nobody guards him so he doesn't really streach the floor. Just stands there without any purpose.

Mo scored 76 points from pick&roll according to nba.com and his FG% was pretty impressive 50% FG ( 58% eFG) for a rookie. Compared to Gordon and Isaac he is already couple of light years ahead of them , mostly because of size adventage.
His FT% frequency is 18,8%
For example Gordon is shooting 13-32 ( 37%) as rolling big man in P&R. FT Freq 11,8%
Isaac is even worst , 7-23 ( 30%) FT Freq 4% .

This is not small sample size if you know that he didn't play many games and that he only played between 15 and 20 mpg.

All signs lean toward conclusion i pointed out yesterday ( not because i come out from nowhere with it, rather did some dig ups )- Bamba should focus more on pick&roll /strenght/ conditioning rather than trying to become shooting big.
Key word here is focus. It doesn't mean he has to stop shoot 3s, but 3s should not be big focus of his summer this year.


Isaac is similar .
Isaac attempted 266 3-pointers this season, hitting on a poor 32.3 percent of them. Overall, 109 NBA players attempted at least 266 threes this season, and Isaac was the seventh-worst 3-point shooter of those 109 players
At this point there is no reason why 44% of all his FGA are 3s when he is still doesn't keep defense honest and does not streach the floor.

Maybe their strenghts are not as clear as Lebron's playmaking is, but for sure their strenghts are not shooting witch thies in my second point: if you want shooters than draft shooters , not long defenders.

They are not qualified for the role right now, but that is exactly development they must make to be successful within Clifford system. Bamba and Isaac wont become great 3 point shooters over night. They must practice it in game situations. Its easier for Bamba to make himself comfortable with corner 3 than pick and roll offense. First you crawl than you walk. We dont need Bamba in many pick and rolls his rookie season if we want to win. You want Bamba roll or Vucevic roll ? Bamba roll or Ross 3 ? It doesnt mean he dont practice it, it means he is not ready yet to do it in Clifford eyes. On one hand you want Bamba to get stronger becouse he is fragile and on the other you want him to roll into grown man. You know it pepe and wrote it many times but not in this context, If Clifford only wanted to win this season Isaac sits on the bench and Bamba is DNP.
Bold Predictions:
1. Deandre Ayton biggest disappointment of 2018 draft.
2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
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Re: Mo Bamba's future with Orlando? 

Post#159 » by Xatticus » Wed May 15, 2019 10:07 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
SOUL wrote:I don't agree with that take, pepe. First of all, his sample size is very small. The month before he got hurt, his averages improved, so it's not like we can't say he might have improved on both areas as the season progressed because his play was starting to get better as far as knowing where to be before he got injured.

I will take 30% three point shooting from a rookie big who really started working on that shot only from one offseason. He shot it in Texas but not as often. His Texas FT shooting was near 70%, so obviously that will have to be better, but again, not a huge sample size and historically rookies are just not that reliable as FT shooters. I mean, Doncic was barely over 70%. His form looks fine. Just needs the repetition and to calm the nerves.

NOW if what you're saying is he shouldn't ignore the paint/post moves/getting bigger down low just to shoot those long twos/threes/etc I agree. But I don't look at that shooting as an issue or a problem just because it didn't look bad coming out of his hands, like he was Gobert or DeAndre Jordan trying to shoot. He just needs to pick his spots better and have a mixture of an in and out game.



Mo also shot 68% FTs at college and only made 14 threes (on 51 attemp).

But this is not about Bamba, it's about philosophy and new thrends in general.

Success or failure of a team that has shooting C molds perception of value of that player.

Over years guys like Bargnani , Frye, Speights,Maker, Spance Hawes shot 3s , but when you think about them you think about fools and scrubs ,right?
So what's different between them and Lopez and Horford but perception of success of their teams?
Lopez had virtually zero value for anybody last summer. Anybody but Bucks who needed specific, 3 point shooting C to lure last man out to give Giannis and other shooters space. I'm pretty sure most of the league would not enjoy 4 rpg , 7 three point attemps C who brings almost nothing else to the table but high volumen chucking at this point. Yet it works for them. We know for fact on Nets it did not work ( 20 wins ) and on Lakers it did not work ( limited to 23 mpg ).

Horford's biggest value as a player is passing , not shooting. He just developed his shot to be triple treat in pick&roll/pop. But he lacks any volumen. Despite shooting 37% for 3 for career do you know how many threes he was wide open ? 65 out of 73 he made . Despite him being always wide open , unlike guards, he still only shoots 36% on wide open jumpers ( where elite shooters knock them down at 43-48% rate ) .

And they are only 2 Cs that shoot at respectful level to even talk about.
Davis 31% for 3 for career, why even try if you can dominate from virtually any other range ?
Embiid 31% for 3 for career, same as Davis.

IMO them shooting 3s comes down to fact that it's just "modern" and without any other logical explanation why they do it. it's clear that they are not good at it ,it's clear that nobody guards them when they do and therfore it means nothing to their offense ( actually it hurts their offense as they shoot bad shots that they can't hit at respectful rate ) . So why do it aside from fact it's cool?

This 3 point frenzy with big men is same level of hype without substance like notion that you need rim protection to win title 5 years ago so every scrub who could block shot got $17M a year , 4 years deal. Or 10 years ago when teams were offering max contracts to 48% TS " iso scorers" like Marbury and Francis because "that's what Lakers have in Kobe".
Every few years you have new crappy narrative and sheep follow .

In context for Bamba, as i said, this summer he should only squat, deadlift, work on post moves, work on finishing around rim with both hands and being able to post up much smaller players. Make FTs. Once he can do it at high level,his game will be next level.


The league has evolved to threes and layups because those are the most efficient shots. Larry Bird is considered one of the best shooters in NBA history and played the entirety of his career in the 3-point era, yet Jonathan Isaac has a made more 3-point shots per game on average over his career thus far than did Bird. The game has changed.

29% of Bamba's shots were 3-point attempts. 35% of his shots were at the rim and he converted on 79% of those shots. 29% of his made field goals were dunks. It's a fallacy to assert that he spent all of his time on the perimeter.

Every center in the NBA spends time at the perimeter on the offensive end. They are often used as initiators from the top of the key before they move to set a screen or simply to space the floor when there is pick-and-roll action that they are not involved in. You can not run a pick-and-roll while someone is trying to establish themselves in the post. That just brings the help defender to the basket.

Modern offenses are about movement and spacing. When one player vacates an area to run off of a screen, someone else shifts to fill the vacated space. The goal is the create switches, gaps, and confusion in the defense that forces defenders to scramble. Forcing the ball into the post stops all of this. It's time consuming. It's just much easier to initiate the offense with a pick-and-roll. This is why conventional centers are a dying breed. There is no rational reason not to develop Bamba's shooting.

Quick quiz: Which current Orlando Magic center had a .455 eFG%, .462 TS%, and a .529 FT% in his rookie season?

Maybe it's way too early to make declarations about what Bamba can and can't do?
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Re: Mo Bamba's future with Orlando? 

Post#160 » by Skin » Wed May 15, 2019 11:30 pm

Xatticus wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
SOUL wrote:I don't agree with that take, pepe. First of all, his sample size is very small. The month before he got hurt, his averages improved, so it's not like we can't say he might have improved on both areas as the season progressed because his play was starting to get better as far as knowing where to be before he got injured.

I will take 30% three point shooting from a rookie big who really started working on that shot only from one offseason. He shot it in Texas but not as often. His Texas FT shooting was near 70%, so obviously that will have to be better, but again, not a huge sample size and historically rookies are just not that reliable as FT shooters. I mean, Doncic was barely over 70%. His form looks fine. Just needs the repetition and to calm the nerves.

NOW if what you're saying is he shouldn't ignore the paint/post moves/getting bigger down low just to shoot those long twos/threes/etc I agree. But I don't look at that shooting as an issue or a problem just because it didn't look bad coming out of his hands, like he was Gobert or DeAndre Jordan trying to shoot. He just needs to pick his spots better and have a mixture of an in and out game.



Mo also shot 68% FTs at college and only made 14 threes (on 51 attemp).

But this is not about Bamba, it's about philosophy and new thrends in general.

Success or failure of a team that has shooting C molds perception of value of that player.

Over years guys like Bargnani , Frye, Speights,Maker, Spance Hawes shot 3s , but when you think about them you think about fools and scrubs ,right?
So what's different between them and Lopez and Horford but perception of success of their teams?
Lopez had virtually zero value for anybody last summer. Anybody but Bucks who needed specific, 3 point shooting C to lure last man out to give Giannis and other shooters space. I'm pretty sure most of the league would not enjoy 4 rpg , 7 three point attemps C who brings almost nothing else to the table but high volumen chucking at this point. Yet it works for them. We know for fact on Nets it did not work ( 20 wins ) and on Lakers it did not work ( limited to 23 mpg ).

Horford's biggest value as a player is passing , not shooting. He just developed his shot to be triple treat in pick&roll/pop. But he lacks any volumen. Despite shooting 37% for 3 for career do you know how many threes he was wide open ? 65 out of 73 he made . Despite him being always wide open , unlike guards, he still only shoots 36% on wide open jumpers ( where elite shooters knock them down at 43-48% rate ) .

And they are only 2 Cs that shoot at respectful level to even talk about.
Davis 31% for 3 for career, why even try if you can dominate from virtually any other range ?
Embiid 31% for 3 for career, same as Davis.

IMO them shooting 3s comes down to fact that it's just "modern" and without any other logical explanation why they do it. it's clear that they are not good at it ,it's clear that nobody guards them when they do and therfore it means nothing to their offense ( actually it hurts their offense as they shoot bad shots that they can't hit at respectful rate ) . So why do it aside from fact it's cool?

This 3 point frenzy with big men is same level of hype without substance like notion that you need rim protection to win title 5 years ago so every scrub who could block shot got $17M a year , 4 years deal. Or 10 years ago when teams were offering max contracts to 48% TS " iso scorers" like Marbury and Francis because "that's what Lakers have in Kobe".
Every few years you have new crappy narrative and sheep follow .

In context for Bamba, as i said, this summer he should only squat, deadlift, work on post moves, work on finishing around rim with both hands and being able to post up much smaller players. Make FTs. Once he can do it at high level,his game will be next level.


The league has evolved to threes and layups because those are the most efficient shots. Larry Bird is considered one of the best shooters in NBA history and played the entirety of his career in the 3-point era, yet Jonathan Isaac has a made more 3-point shots per game on average over his career thus far than did Bird. The game has changed.

29% of Bamba's shots were 3-point attempts. 35% of his shots were at the rim and he converted on 79% of those shots. 29% of his made field goals were dunks. It's a fallacy to assert that he spent all of his time on the perimeter.

Every center in the NBA spends time at the perimeter on the offensive end. They are often used as initiators from the top of the key before they move to set a screen or simply to space the floor when there is pick-and-roll action that they are not involved in. You can not run a pick-and-roll while someone is trying to establish themselves in the post. That just brings the help defender to the basket.

Modern offenses are about movement and spacing. When one player vacates an area to run off of a screen, someone else shifts to fill the vacated space. The goal is the create switches, gaps, and confusion in the defense that forces defenders to scramble. Forcing the ball into the post stops all of this. It's time consuming. It's just much easier to initiate the offense with a pick-and-roll. This is why conventional centers are a dying breed. There is no rational reason not to develop Bamba's shooting.

Quick quiz: Which current Orlando Magic center had a .455 eFG%, .462 TS%, and a .529 FT% in his rookie season?

Maybe it's way too early to make declarations about what Bamba can and can't do?

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