Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7)

[Mauro Pedrosa]

I just spent 5 minutes putting this together. Pain is a great motivator

[CZ Eddie]

Btw, I'm very happy to see that Gordon stepped up his game a little for the playoffs.
And Isaac only had foul trouble, which can be fixed over time.
Those are our most important playing players of the future.

[OrlandoMagic]

I was at both games 3 and 4. Things I noticed is after game one in Toronto is that Toronto figured out how to defend us very well. They started to double team Ross nearly every time and played up on him without giving him much room. They closed in on Fournier splitting the defense nearly every single time, and the cut off Vucs small dump passes. Plus throw in the fact we have been shooting extremely poorly in the playoffs so far. There really isnt much fight in us right now. All the players look defeated in the court. I can’t see us coming back to force a game 6. I’m still glad we made it to the playoffs I think that is good for our players, the city of Orlando, and will help lure better free agents, but you can just tell we are just so young and inexperienced at this level. Atleast we now can focus on rehabbing Fultz and Bamba and see where the will fit in with this group.

[Knightro]

You don't want to tank and you don't think we can sign an MVP caliber player... where are we getting one from???

Do you think resigning Vuc and using him and Evan in a trade for a disgruntled star is likely?

I didn't say I didn't want to tank. Hell, I never even said I think tanking is a bad idea. The easiest path for the Magic to realistically acquire a superstar is through the draft.

All I've said this entire season is that this front office and this coaching staff isn't going to tank.

I envision them attempting to take a similar path to what Toronto took. When Weltman joined the Raptors in 2013, they had missed the playoffs 5 years in a row.

They ended up getting bounced in the first round the first two years, but they kept adding and developing talent in the draft and free agency and kept getting a little bit better and a little bit better and then when the time was right, they cashed in a bunch of their chips on a superstar via trade.

I assume that is along the lines of what the Magic are going to look to do. Continue to be a playoff team the next couple of years while at the same time developing more young talent in an effort to acquire bigger pieces via trade down the line.

[dsg2021]

Am I the only one fine with competing this year as well as moving in a different direction next year?

Vuc played way better than expected, but we're still capped with a ceiling and it's no guarantee he delivers the same year going forward. We couldn't simply just move him when he was our best option for most of the year, so we kept him. If the deal he wants is more than 2 years (which is probable) and a lot of money (which is probable), the Magic by no means have to commit to him just because he was our best player this season. To say that we have to is illogical because there are factors and context beyond his play this year.

I'd rather compete with a competitive roster to at least get a sniff of what it's like to be in the playoffs than just be a Hornets-like team that is just getting the 13th-14th pick year after year and barely missing the playoffs. So I'm happy our guys rallied and fought hard.

Now, if we start trying to sell that crap that we did a few years ago when we'd win a few games at the end of the year and go from 23 wins to 25 wins and lose 1-2 draft spots and call that "progress", that's bull.

The playoffs have done well to identify who will be there to carry the load once you get there. Getting there is half the battle, but the playoffs are a different game to the regular season, and once in you need to build a roster than can play at that level, too.

Vuc was great this season in the regular season, but one telling sign that showed up and eluded that he might struggle in the playoffs was his 4th quarter play. When the pressure is on, he gets flustered easily and rushes shots. That's exactly what he's done all series. Maybe with more exposure he can learn to settle into that. Maybe without the pressure of being the team's main offensive option, he could loosen up. Problem is, it will be a challenge to re-sign him and make the improvements to take the load off of him. They're not mutually exclusive options, but they're harder.

Meanwhile, if the team just has a defensive presence at C, someone like Birch, we could get by as long as we're able to get legitimate playmaking from our backcourt.

So I'm not worried either way what we do regarding Vuc. If we bring him back, cool, he's good and can fulfil a role. If we don't, cool, we can get by without him. But we need to improve that backcourt regardless. It all starts and ends there.

The book being written on Vooch is far from over. Mainly because of a few things, too.
One, we got the big man DPOY in Marc Gasol with a ridiculous amount of playoffs experience guarding Vooch.
Two, Vooch has always consistently improved his game over time in each regular season, and getting his very first playoffs series under his belt is only going to give him a base to learn from and improve from.
And three, Vooch still received the most defensive attention and the most doubles from any other ORL player, even in game 4. This is the same thing happening with Fournier to a lesser degree. IF you put Vooch (and Fournier) into these situations where they are the third option, they are going to be absolutely brilliant, passing-orientated, sharp-shooting players again.

[MagicMatic]

There are going to be so many salty fans when we run back the same team more or less. I really doubt weltman is going to turn into a tanker just because of a few playoff games against a contender. The Magic took a step this season. They will need to continue developing and tweaking to take another step.

Yeah how is that? Free agency? Pick #16? Or resigning players that have done nothing for us in the playoffs?

None of those are tweaks. They are either non options, making mandatory selections, and maintaining the status quo. Nobody has suggested tanking. People just don’t want to watch the same ineffective offense and limited options. It’s funny that whenever anyone criticizes the FO’s decisions (or lack thereof) they immediately claim tanking as the alternative when it’s never even suggested.

[thelead]

You don't want to tank and you don't think we can sign an MVP caliber player... where are we getting one from???

Do you think resigning Vuc and using him and Evan in a trade for a disgruntled star is likely?

I didn't say I didn't want to tank. Hell, I never even said I think tanking is a bad idea. The easiest path for the Magic to realistically acquire a superstar is through the draft.

All I've said this entire season is that this front office and this coaching staff isn't going to tank.

I envision them attempting to take a similar path to what Toronto took. When Weltman joined the Raptors in 2013, they had missed the playoffs 5 years in a row.

They ended up getting bounced in the first round the first two years, but they kept adding and developing talent in the draft and free agency and kept getting a little bit better and a little bit better and then when the time was right, they cashed in a bunch of their chips on a superstar via trade.

I assume that is along the lines of what the Magic are going to look to do. Continue to be a playoff team the next couple of years while at the same time developing more young talent in an effort to acquire bigger pieces via trade down the line.

And that's fine but, at the end of the day, we can't have a 'pay whatever it takes to retain Vuc (or Ross) mentallity (not saying you're saying that but some are). Whatever we do with Vuc and Ross, the contracts have to be trade-able. If not, the Toronto plan doesn't work.

[tiderulz]

did lowry really improve when he got to toronto or did he just start getting star calls?

Star calls???

He hasn't been given one continuation call this whole series. In the act... On a gather... In the air .... It's all side out.

he fakes so many calls...but thats what todays NBA is now unfortunately

[SOUL]

The book being written on Vooch is far from over. Mainly because of a few things, too.
One, we got the big man DPOY in Marc Gasol with a ridiculous amount of playoffs experience guarding Vooch.

Partially true. Not everybody has a Marc Gasol on their team, but there is a big blueprint on how to guard and neutralize Vooch that teams can employ in the regular season (but the playoffs especially).

Two, Vooch has always consistently improved his game over time in each regular season, and getting his very first playoffs series under his belt is only going to give him a base to learn from and improve from.

I don't think this is true. The previous 2 seasons he declined in numbers/efficiency, which was the reason why we drafted Bamba. He wasn't the same player and was drifting further and further away from the paint without getting to the line and not making enough threes to justify it. This year he improved immensely.

And three, Vooch still received the most defensive attention and the most doubles from any other ORL player, even in game 4. This is the same thing happening with Fournier to a lesser degree. IF you put Vooch (and Fournier) into these situations where they are the third option, they are going to be absolutely brilliant, passing-orientated, sharp-shooting players again.

I don't know how you can ever call Fournier a passing orientated sharp shooter with a serious face. Vuc has quite nice passing for a big man and showed it during the regular season, but rushed a lot this playoffs. Definitely above average for a big man though.

[dsg2021]

I was at both games 3 and 4. Things I noticed is after game one in Toronto is that Toronto figured out how to defend us very well. They started to double team Ross nearly every time and played up on him without giving him much room. They closed in on Fournier splitting the defense nearly every single time, and the cut off Vucs small dump passes. Plus throw in the fact we have been shooting extremely poorly in the playoffs so far. There really isnt much fight in us right now. All the players look defeated in the court. I can’t see us coming back to force a game 6. I’m still glad we made it to the playoffs I think that is good for our players, the city of Orlando, and will help lure better free agents, but you can just tell we are just so young and inexperienced at this level. Atleast we now can focus on rehabbing Fultz and Bamba and see where the will fit in with this group.

I think TOR is getting even more comfortable offensively then they are defensively, which is a credit to them. Siakam went from acting like a 3rd-4th option to NN calling him the 2nd option, and Siakam confidently acting exactly as so. I think they made good defensive adjustments after game 1 too, and have been rolling with them mostly unchanged since then though.

[Knightro]

I was waiting for someone to bring all of that up...

But did they play through the post? Because Vuc is here for his low post offense. Which is slow paced.

2009 Suns team was a 46 win team with an MVP player (Nash)... and became a 54 win team once they dumped Shaq and replaced him with Frye (FRYE!!!) the following year

Lakers were STACKED with an MVP leader in Magic but Kareem was the MVP in 1980. And there really wasn't anything slow paced about that era at all.

Brook Lopez isn't a low post scorer anymore. He shoots 9 shots a game with 6 of them being 3's. He also plays with a future MVP player.

So point is, you need an MVP type player, and can't play through your low-post player, to have a chance of winning some games...

That is not a convincing argument to keep Vuc at big dollars.

They play through the post because that's what *Clifford* wants them to do.

Vucevic is a very skilled player. He's more than good enough of a shooter, passer, pick and roll player and finisher to essentially completely abandon any and all post ups and run a much more uptempo system, but again, that's not how Clifford wants to operate.

The reason they dump the ball down into the post is because it's a low risk play in terms of turning the ball over and that's ultimately what Steve wants out of his offense.

[OrlandO]

So we can get 4-0'd in the playoffs again next year? If that happens, they should be fired.

We didn't even get 4-0'd this year

Are you serious? DJ had to play the best game of his career just to win by 3 to not be 4-0'd this year.

You can spin it however you want, but we had two hard fought games that resulted in one win and one close loss. So we're really talking about two big losses... you honestly think Weltman is going to let those two losses erase all the progress made and development experienced this year (I'm talking real development, not the fake development this board is infatuated with)? He's going to sabotage the team now? Weltman's going to sacrifice his job to play the lotto game for some unknown player? The lottery odds aren't even good anymore.

[Howard Mass]

There are questions, but I think that's the least of our worries right now. Our backcourt is one of the worst in the league.

Augustin has done a good job this season and is a big reason why this team made the playoffs. The Magic didn't go out and get Fultz though to be a backup.

The Gordon and Issac question might not get answered this summer but the backcourt definitely needs improvement.

I think at this juncture that Fultz is just as likely to never see the floor meaningfully than he is to be a high-tier starting PG.

I think Fultz will be just fine but you never know.

[Bensational]

Am I the only one fine with competing this year as well as moving in a different direction next year?

Vuc played way better than expected, but we're still capped with a ceiling and it's no guarantee he delivers the same year going forward. We couldn't simply just move him when he was our best option for most of the year, so we kept him. If the deal he wants is more than 2 years (which is probable) and a lot of money (which is probable), the Magic by no means have to commit to him just because he was our best player this season. To say that we have to is illogical because there are factors and context beyond his play this year.

I'd rather compete with a competitive roster to at least get a sniff of what it's like to be in the playoffs than just be a Hornets-like team that is just getting the 13th-14th pick year after year and barely missing the playoffs. So I'm happy our guys rallied and fought hard.

Now, if we start trying to sell that crap that we did a few years ago when we'd win a few games at the end of the year and go from 23 wins to 25 wins and lose 1-2 draft spots and call that "progress", that's bull.

The playoffs have done well to identify who will be there to carry the load once you get there. Getting there is half the battle, but the playoffs are a different game to the regular season, and once in you need to build a roster than can play at that level, too.

Vuc was great this season in the regular season, but one telling sign that showed up and eluded that he might struggle in the playoffs was his 4th quarter play. When the pressure is on, he gets flustered easily and rushes shots. That's exactly what he's done all series. Maybe with more exposure he can learn to settle into that. Maybe without the pressure of being the team's main offensive option, he could loosen up. Problem is, it will be a challenge to re-sign him and make the improvements to take the load off of him. They're not mutually exclusive options, but they're harder.

Meanwhile, if the team just has a defensive presence at C, someone like Birch, we could get by as long as we're able to get legitimate playmaking from our backcourt.

So I'm not worried either way what we do regarding Vuc. If we bring him back, cool, he's good and can fulfil a role. If we don't, cool, we can get by without him. But we need to improve that backcourt regardless. It all starts and ends there.

The book being written on Vooch is far from over. Mainly because of a few things, too.
One, we got the big man DPOY in Marc Gasol with a ridiculous amount of playoffs experience guarding Vooch.
Two, Vooch has always consistently improved his game over time in each regular season, and getting his very first playoffs series under his belt is only going to give him a base to learn from and improve from.
And three, Vooch still received the most defensive attention and the most doubles from any other ORL player, even in game 4. This is the same thing happening with Fournier to a lesser degree. IF you put Vooch (and Fournier) into these situations where they are the third option, they are going to be absolutely brilliant, passing-orientated, sharp-shooting players again.

Not in my opinion. Vuc has been here 7 years now, and he's had one season where he's stepped up to his current level - but that has failed to follow through to the playoffs. He's a great role player, but we're coming into an offseason where we could be faced with offering him a significant amount of our cap space, and sacrificing flexibility in the near future, to lock him up. How confident can we be that his big season wasn't motivated by an impending new contract? Why should we feel confident that he will learn to handle high pressure situations better moving forwards? If he's not battling Gasol, he could be battling Embiid, or Brook Lopez, or Horford. All savvy veterans who know how to play physical ball and who might also be able to neutralise him on the playoff stage. I mean, Toronto have shown a pretty effective gameplan for shutting him down, who's to say every other NBA defense doesn't come back doing the same thing all next season?

If we re-signed him and he regressed, and the team consequently regressed, then that's the worst case imaginable. That is something to be very concerned about. They're all factors that need to be kept in mind.

The argument that we only made the playoffs because of Vuc is moot (not that you made this point), because we've never seen the team without him. I mean, we didn't make the playoffs for 6 seasons prior, is that because of Vuc too then? Last season we posted a record that was the same (possibly better?) without Vuc than with him. This season, in an insignificant 2 game sample, we're 50/50.

Again, these are just all factors to take into account. Despite how critical I am being of Vuc, I genuinely wouldn't be upset if he was brought back. I see potential in either direction. But then it just becomes a matter of weighing potential up with doubt and deciding which gives you more confidence.

[Rainwater]

Scoring, ball handling and playmaking. If we want more wing scoring we would need to bench Isaac.

There are questions if The Gordon and Issac 3 and 4 pairing works long term.

Lots of questions this summer.

I don't think there should be any questions about Gordon and Isaac working long term. The real question is, does Isaac develop a more complete offensive game? He is 21, so I see no reason why he can't as he develops his body.

Hell, I think the Gordon and Isaac pairing is one of the surest things we have.

I completely disagree, its not a sure thing at all. They are redundant. One has to become a better shooter/ball handler/scorer to make it work. Unless one makes the improvement one has to be moved.

[dsg2021]

The book being written on Vooch is far from over. Mainly because of a few things, too.
One, we got the big man DPOY in Marc Gasol with a ridiculous amount of playoffs experience guarding Vooch.

Partially true. Not everybody has a Marc Gasol on their team, but there is a big blueprint on how to guard and neutralize Vooch that teams can employ in the regular season (but the playoffs especially).

Two, Vooch has always consistently improved his game over time in each regular season, and getting his very first playoffs series under his belt is only going to give him a base to learn from and improve from.

I don't think this is true. The previous 2 seasons he declined in numbers/efficiency, which was the reason why we drafted Bamba. He wasn't the same player and was drifting further and further away from the paint without getting to the line and not making enough threes to justify it. This year he improved immensely.

And three, Vooch still received the most defensive attention and the most doubles from any other ORL player, even in game 4. This is the same thing happening with Fournier to a lesser degree. IF you put Vooch (and Fournier) into these situations where they are the third option, they are going to be absolutely brilliant, passing-orientated, sharp-shooting players again.

I don't know how you can ever call Fournier a passing orientated sharp shooter with a serious face. Vuc has quite nice passing for a big man and showed it during the regular season, but rushed a lot this playoffs. Definitely above average for a big man though.

You only need to see the stats and look with your eyes to see that Fournier gets more dimes than most other SG's. This has been rehashed a lot in another thread just very recently too.

For Vooch, he's had to modernize his game and space it out more. You say he's had 2 bad years recently, and yet he's had to dramatically increase his 3 pt shot in those two years, still increased his DWS (defensive win shares) in those two years, and also dramatically became more passing orientated in those two years (see AST% stat). So it's not like, oh, he's just doing what he usually does, just slightly worse. No, he grew new parts to his game, and became more of a number one option (when Marc Gasol isn't guarding you). And I didn't really understand what you meant by the blueprint on guarding Vooch? There's only one Marc Gasol who plays like a DPOY, assists like a point, and spaces it to 3. Maybe you mean a big, heavy center like Marc? But then that team's gonna get killed on offense with that lumberjack down low, because it sure as hell won't be someone like Marc Gasol on offense (passing, shooting-wise). There is so much (rather justified) hate on Vooch and Fournier, but then there's this incredible lack of vision to imagine them returning to 3rd and 4th options, and how brilliant they'd be at it. They've had amazing moments with it in seasons past, when the roster was arguably more talented and dangerous. I always point to this one regular season that I believe was in 2015 or 2016 season, when ORL played DET and won with some brilliant passing and shooting. Fournier and Vooch played like high IQ, 3rd options in that game, and were amazing for it.

[MagicMatic]

There are questions if The Gordon and Issac 3 and 4 pairing works long term.

Lots of questions this summer.

I don't think there should be any questions about Gordon and Isaac working long term. The real question is, does Isaac develop a more complete offensive game? He is 21, so I see no reason why he can't as he develops his body.

Hell, I think the Gordon and Isaac pairing is one of the surest things we have.

I completely disagree. They are redundant. One has to become a better shooter/ball handler/scorer to make it work. Unless one makes the improvement one has to be moved.

Right. The offense isn’t good enough to validate having both on the floor together if neither are providing those qualities. It would be a vastly different conversation if the back court was at least mediocre. Not only that, but if we stick to a slow halfcourt offense, centered around Vuc, those deficiencies become more glaringly obvious.

[Optimus_Steel]

Honestly, if you have enough room to tell a superstar to pick another allstar to come with him to a team that has a bright future and great young talent, you should be fine.

You're being really naive with this.

Max caliber free agents sign in whatever city they feel like playing because they know guys are going to want to come and play with them. Orlando isn't one of those cities.

The players already on the team's roster aren't going to be a factor in anyone's decision.

It's why Kawhi is likely going to leave a 58 win Toronto team for a 48 win LA Clippers team.

It's why LeBron left a Cleveland team that had gone to four finals in a row to join a mid 30s win Lakers team.

Durant is likely going to leave a 4x champion to go to the Knicks of all places.

If you truly believe that we can't sign anyone, then you should be tanking every year until we have a superstar.

That's ridiculous.

[Rainwater]

Its nice that people are realizing how big this offseason is going to be, the magic have to chose a path.

[dsg2021]

Scoring, ball handling and playmaking. If we want more wing scoring we would need to bench Isaac.

There are questions if The Gordon and Issac 3 and 4 pairing works long term.

Lots of questions this summer.

I don't think there should be any questions about Gordon and Isaac working long term. The real question is, does Isaac develop a more complete offensive game? He is 21, so I see no reason why he can't as he develops his body.

Hell, I think the Gordon and Isaac pairing is one of the surest things we have.

I completely agree as well. They might not be one of the sexiest pairings offensively at 23 & 21 years old,, but defensively they're a top 3 pair to have already imo. This is a future duo I want to watch and see how far they can go.