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Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7)

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Re: Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7) 

Post#721 » by thelead » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:05 am

Blue_and_Whte wrote:Told you. If AG is our leading scorer we'll get blown out. They did a great job containing Vuc, and we cant stop Saikam

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Re: Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7) 

Post#722 » by Rainwater » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:06 am

thelead wrote:
Rainwater wrote:
thelead wrote:True but if we wipe the slates clean, I think we would do a better job of filling around AG and Isaac than any other 2 players out of the group playing these playoffs. It is way easier to find better scoring guards than DJ and Evan... let alone replacing DJ's and Evan's 'defense'.


With the exception of Mo, fultz and JI (based on their youth) there is not one guy I would build this team around. You build your team around superstars and the magic don't have that as of yet.

Yeah but I'm thinking of contracts as well when I make that statement. You can sign a superstar if you don't have Vuc and Evan on the team taking up north of 40 mil of your cap space (If Vuc signs for 23 or more per).


Oh I see and I agree.
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Re: Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7) 

Post#723 » by SOUL » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:09 am

Blue_and_Whte wrote:Told you. If AG is our leading scorer we'll get blown out. They did a great job containing Vuc, and we cant stop Saikam

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Siakam was good again but had 16 on 14. And luckily, Isaac was barely on him this game so you can't pin it on him!

Also I'm not sure if you meant that as an indictment of Gordon's offense or not. It was a case of Gordon being the only person playing with a sense of urgency + the ability to get his on offense and trying to rally our team back rather than us just deciding to go to Gordon and making him the 1st option all of a sudden, he had a pretty subpar 1st half offensively. Any one player could've scored 50 for our team and we still would've lost because nobody else did much on offense.
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Re: Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7) 

Post#724 » by Bensational » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:15 am

Blue_and_Whte wrote:Told you. If AG is our leading scorer we'll get blown out. They did a great job containing Vuc, and we cant stop Saikam

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Well our 'best player' is nowhere to be seen. At least Gordon is figuring out how to go and get buckets, Vuc just keeps flicking up prayers. One is proving to be utterly unreliable when you need him, the other is doing his job.
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Re: Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7) 

Post#725 » by SOUL » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:21 am

I am much more disappointed in DJ than Vuc throughout this series. At least Vuc's on/off is respectable when Gasol isn't on the floor. While I wish he wasn't getting punked by another man his size, it's more indicative of a bad matchup than Vuc suddenly just being "bad". Still, that's more of a "man up" mentality that I wish he had but isn't really in his DNA.

Besides G1, DJ has been largely useless. No defense (even G1, Lowry just sucked and missed every open shot), doesn't get the team into quick offense which has led to Toronto having quick starts in almost all but 1 game, isn't really a threat to drive and dish reliably, doesn't shoot enough to really keep defenses honest, and part of that is because his shot takes so damn long to release. He has had time to let it fly but fakes it and does a fake drive thing. But yeah, the defense in particular has been dreadful.
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Re: Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7) 

Post#726 » by Bensational » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:23 am

To clarify, I'm being very critical of Vuc, but I don't want it to be taken as if I don't want him on the team. On the contrary, I want him back. I want the backcourt improved first and foremost. If we had stumbled into the fortune of having a Lillard/Kyrie type PG, and a Redick-like SG, I think we would have a competitive team.

I can live with Vuc having a quiet series if we have other contributors. But I don't want us destroying the potential of our best young players (Gordon and Isaac) at the expense of getting those improvements.
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Re: Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7) 

Post#727 » by Rainwater » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:25 am

Bensational wrote:
Rainwater wrote:
thelead wrote:I don't think there should be any questions about Gordon and Isaac working long term. The real question is, does Isaac develop a more complete offensive game? He is 21, so I see no reason why he can't as he develops his body.

Hell, I think the Gordon and Isaac pairing is one of the surest things we have.


I completely disagree, its not a sure thing at all. They are redundant. One has to become a better shooter/ball handler/scorer to make it work. Unless one makes the improvement one has to be moved.


They are the least of our problems. The very least. They're both strong defenders and can contribute on offense. Meanwhile we've got 2 starting backcourt players who aren't providing much at all. That should be the focus of attention and not this ridiculous fabrication that AG and Isaac can't, let alone aren't working well together.


I was agreeing with this post until you said it was a fabrication. We may agree to disagree, but you can't have two non-playmaking/ non-scoring/non-shooters playing at the 3 and 4 in todays nba. You may be able to get away with it if you had an all-star backcourt but that is definitely a problem.
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Re: Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7) 

Post#728 » by AreBe » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:47 am

I come in peace.
thelead wrote:
Magic#1 wrote:In the biggest game of our season, Norman Powell would be the third highest scorer on our team right now. That's a problem.

The biggest problem is that our all star center, who is looking for a huge payday, has only shown up for 1 of 16 quarters so far. He consistently has made mistakes and rushed easy plays. He does not play winning basketball in the modern NBA.


The other possibility is that the Raptors coaching staff made a decision that Nikola Vučević wasn't going to beat them. Marc Gasol is playing outstanding defense, absolutely outstanding defense. (And his job on offence is to be another point guard and only shoot if the other team insists that he just go into the paint and dunk or hit that mid- range jump shot or if the other team particularly insists make a 3)

The Raptors have been here before and know that in the playoffs (1)things happen fast, (2) every possession counts and (3) defense is more important than offence.

It's a learning curve.

Whatever you're feeling now is wrong.

If in the next game, if Orlando goes down 10, if Orlando keeps trying to hit 10 point shots, instead of the slow and steady 2 and then get back on defense, then you are right to be furious. That should be the take-home from this game: there are no 10 point shots.

There's also that Kawhi Leonard fellow.
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Re: Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7) 

Post#729 » by thelead » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:03 am

AreBe wrote:I come in peace.
thelead wrote:
Magic#1 wrote:In the biggest game of our season, Norman Powell would be the third highest scorer on our team right now. That's a problem.

The biggest problem is that our all star center, who is looking for a huge payday, has only shown up for 1 of 16 quarters so far. He consistently has made mistakes and rushed easy plays. He does not play winning basketball in the modern NBA.


The other possibility is that the Raptors coaching staff made a decision that Nikola Vučević wasn't going to beat them. Marc Gasol is playing outstanding defense, absolutely outstanding defense. (And his job on offence is to be another point guard and only shoot if the other team insists that he just go into the paint and dunk or hit that mid- range jump shot or if the other team particularly insists make a 3)

The Raptors have been here before and know that in the playoffs (1)things happen fast, (2) every possession counts and (3) defense is more important than offence.

It's a learning curve.

Whatever you're feeling now is wrong.

If in the next game, if Orlando goes down 10, if Orlando keeps trying to hit 10 point shots, instead of the slow and steady 2 and then get back on defense, then you are right to be furious. That should be the take-home from this game: there are no 10 point shots.

There's also that Kawhi Leonard fellow.


And how do you account for the play where he had a guard on him (Lowry I think) and rushed and bricked a turn around hook. Or just staring at rebounds? Did Toronto gameplan that as well?

I'm just jaded from years of this same crap from Vuc. Just soft.
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Re: Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7) 

Post#730 » by MagicMatic » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:03 am

Rainwater wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Rainwater wrote:
I completely disagree, its not a sure thing at all. They are redundant. One has to become a better shooter/ball handler/scorer to make it work. Unless one makes the improvement one has to be moved.


They are the least of our problems. The very least. They're both strong defenders and can contribute on offense. Meanwhile we've got 2 starting backcourt players who aren't providing much at all. That should be the focus of attention and not this ridiculous fabrication that AG and Isaac can't, let alone aren't working well together.


I was agreeing with this post until you said it was a fabrication. We may agree to disagree, but you can't have two non-playmaking/ non-scoring/non-shooters playing at the 3 and 4 in todays nba. You may be able to get away with it if you had an all-star backcourt but that is definitely a problem.


The problem is pretty complex.

1. The back court is trash. Probably the worst in the league. Not only that, but the depth is bad too. That should be the primary area of facilitating and generating offense.

2. We run the majority of the offense through Vuc in the half court and Ross off the bench. This isn’t beneficial to what we saw AG doing tonight in a full court attack and will require one or both of them to be consistently hitting outside shots with Vuc on the floor.

3. Clifford staggered Isaac and AG’s minutes with Ross throughout the season. He actually played them more apart in the regular season probably for that reason. Sure they started together, but the most effective lineups were obviously with Ross and one of them.

So it has more to do with the current system and personnel, rather than specifically “Isaac and AG can’t play together” because they obviously can. However, we are currently banking on them adapting to an inherently flawed offense, rather than letting them do what they are probably better at as faceup forwards that would benefit in an open court. I’ve said it before, I think they would work well together in a different system. It’s up to management to be perceptive enough to make that call after watching this series unfold.
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Re: Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7) 

Post#731 » by OrlandO » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:12 am

MagicMatic wrote:
OrlandO wrote:There are going to be so many salty fans when we run back the same team more or less. I really doubt weltman is going to turn into a tanker just because of a few playoff games against a contender. The Magic took a step this season. They will need to continue developing and tweaking to take another step.



Yeah how is that? Free agency? Pick #16? Or resigning players that have done nothing for us in the playoffs?

None of those are tweaks. They are either non options, making mandatory selections, and maintaining the status quo. Nobody has suggested tanking. People just don’t want to watch the same ineffective offense and limited options. It’s funny that whenever anyone criticizes the FO’s decisions (or lack thereof) they immediately claim tanking as the alternative when it’s never even suggested.

What exactly do you think is going to happen if two key players walk for nothing? We would be a team full of really young players with no dependable shooters/scorers. That's a recipe for a 25 win team again and that's a tough sell to even lower tier free agents.

If Weltman thinks re-signing Vuc and Ross will allow him to develop his youth in 82 meaningful regular season games and get them some playoff experience for the next few years while he hunts in the draft, free agency and trade market to further improve the team then he'll probably be content with that. The build doesn't stop with this generation of team. 6 years from now we could be contenders with 95% different players, but it won't mean the previous players on the roster didn't play a role in getting the franchise from point a to b.
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Re: Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7) 

Post#732 » by pepe1991 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:20 am

Team that had to wait 81# game of a season to lock playoff spot, vs team that locked playoff spot in mid March is getting as* whooped ? Damn who could ever imagine that , right?

Raptors decided to double, triple even quadra team Vučević whenever he has ball . Magic only option was let others score and shoot good enough to punish them .
Magic shot 49% for 3 in game one and won game one.
Magic after that shot
Game 2, 9-34( 25%)
game 3, 13-44( 29%)
game 4 ,7-33 (21%)

As you can imagine , shooting 29- 111 (26%) simply won't get a job done in league of 3 point shooters.

Where other two teams led by center were also being blitzed ( Nuggets, Philly) , they have good enough other options to punish their opponents for focusing out 1 player.
That's why through Philly - Nets series Harris, Simmons and Butler all average at least 17.5 ppg each.

Nuggets Jamal Murray ( 17 ppg, 42% for 3 ) and Garry Harris (15,8 ppg , 41% for 3 ) , on top of that Malik Beasley is averaging 11 ppg on 56% for 3. But that's not all, Craig made 9 out of 13 three point attemps...


When one player gets lot of attention , others have to make shots. If they can't ,you can't compete.
Vučević is having terrible playoffs, but that would change in second if anybody else aside from Gordon could do anything.
Evan another terrible outside shooting night, DJ can't even get shots up, Green schooled him, Isaac shoots 30% FG overall , rest of bench can't shoot in empty gym let alone playoff game.
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Re: Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7) 

Post#733 » by thelead » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:22 am

For the record, I still want to bring Vuc back, it just needs to be a trade-able deal. We can't get stuck with a big bad contract.
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Re: Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7) 

Post#734 » by MagicMatic » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:33 am

OrlandO wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
OrlandO wrote:There are going to be so many salty fans when we run back the same team more or less. I really doubt weltman is going to turn into a tanker just because of a few playoff games against a contender. The Magic took a step this season. They will need to continue developing and tweaking to take another step.



Yeah how is that? Free agency? Pick #16? Or resigning players that have done nothing for us in the playoffs?

None of those are tweaks. They are either non options, making mandatory selections, and maintaining the status quo. Nobody has suggested tanking. People just don’t want to watch the same ineffective offense and limited options. It’s funny that whenever anyone criticizes the FO’s decisions (or lack thereof) they immediately claim tanking as the alternative when it’s never even suggested.

What exactly do you think is going to happen if two key players walk for nothing? We would be a team full of really young players with no dependable shooters/scorers. That's a recipe for a 25 win team again and that's a tough sell to even lower tier free agents.

If Weltman thinks re-signing Vuc and Ross will allow him to develop his youth in 82 meaningful regular season games and get them some playoff experience for the next few years while he hunts in the draft, free agency and trade market to further improve the team then he'll probably be content with that. The build doesn't stop with this generation of team. 6 years from now we could be contenders with 95% different players, but it won't mean the previous players on the roster didn't play a role in getting the franchise from point a to b.


You have to make sacrifices sometimes instead of basking in mediocrity. If its a recipe, then that’s what we deserve. Would you say Atlanta or Dallas have brighter futures than us currently? I would. Why? Because you can see their plan and they are still acquiring assets to make a push at the right time despite not making the playoffs or having amazing records.

We might have 95% different players 6 years from now, but none of them will be foundational all stars to build around if you hand Ross and Vuc contracts as we struggle by settling to maintain relevancy. Not unless we get lucky picking in the middle of the draft or rob another team of some unforeseen asset they didn’t take into account or develop properly.
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Re: Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7) 

Post#735 » by J the Drafter » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:36 am

I expected, after game one, that the coaching staff to scheme to get Vuc post position via strategies like duck-ins and using the pick-and-roll to establish Vuc on the block*. I haven’t been able to watch any games, but has any of that happened? It the coaching staff’s job to put players in position to succeed. That’s why Philly’s stars were in single digits the first game of the 76ers-Nets series, and have now been scoring in the 20’s.

*Like so:



We used to run the pick and roll to get Howard position, and Skiles did it with Vuc, too.
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Re: Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7) 

Post#736 » by OrlandO » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:38 am

thelead wrote:We're the 7th seed only because Blake got injured (and we were mostly healthy). Now, imagine KD, Kyrie and Ja or Zion joining the Knicks...

There is good chance that we won't be in the playoffs next year even if we bring Vuc back.

You don't think Grant crippled the bench for the first 50 games? We could very well be sixth if we made a simple upgrade a month sooner. AG and Isaac won't get better? Not one bench position will be upgraded? There is a good chance this playoff thing is sustainable.

And isn't it easier to imagine the knicks failing to acquire a star in free agency this summer?
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Re: Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7) 

Post#737 » by thelead » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:05 am

OrlandO wrote:
thelead wrote:We're the 7th seed only because Blake got injured (and we were mostly healthy). Now, imagine KD, Kyrie and Ja or Zion joining the Knicks...

There is good chance that we won't be in the playoffs next year even if we bring Vuc back.

You don't think Grant crippled the bench for the first 50 games? We could very well be sixth if we made a simple upgrade a month sooner. AG and Isaac won't get better? Not one bench position will be upgraded? There is a good chance this playoff thing is sustainable.

And isn't it easier to imagine the knicks failing to acquire a star in free agency this summer?

All true but I'm sticking to the 'only sign moveable contracts' mantra.
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Re: Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7) 

Post#738 » by OrlandO » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:35 am

thelead wrote:
OrlandO wrote:
thelead wrote:We're the 7th seed only because Blake got injured (and we were mostly healthy). Now, imagine KD, Kyrie and Ja or Zion joining the Knicks...

There is good chance that we won't be in the playoffs next year even if we bring Vuc back.

You don't think Grant crippled the bench for the first 50 games? We could very well be sixth if we made a simple upgrade a month sooner. AG and Isaac won't get better? Not one bench position will be upgraded? There is a good chance this playoff thing is sustainable.

And isn't it easier to imagine the knicks failing to acquire a star in free agency this summer?

All true but I'm sticking to the 'only sign moveable contracts' mantra.

What's a movable contract?
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Re: Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7) 

Post#739 » by thelead » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:57 am

OrlandO wrote:
thelead wrote:
OrlandO wrote:You don't think Grant crippled the bench for the first 50 games? We could very well be sixth if we made a simple upgrade a month sooner. AG and Isaac won't get better? Not one bench position will be upgraded? There is a good chance this playoff thing is sustainable.

And isn't it easier to imagine the knicks failing to acquire a star in free agency this summer?

All true but I'm sticking to the 'only sign moveable contracts' mantra.

What's a movable contract?

A contract that you don’t have to include assets when trading.
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Re: Playoffs G4: Toronto Raptors (2) @ Orlando Magic (7) 

Post#740 » by pepe1991 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:05 am

thelead wrote:
OrlandO wrote:
thelead wrote:All true but I'm sticking to the 'only sign moveable contracts' mantra.

What's a movable contract?

A contract that you don’t have to include assets when trading.


That definition makes Biyombo movable, doesn't it?
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