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The Future is bright

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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#261 » by pepe1991 » Sat May 4, 2019 5:15 pm

j-ragg wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:And Skin ,let's just remind people about your expert analytics on last year's draft



You were also drooling about Mikal Bridges and fighting posters who said he doesn't have star potential :roll:

But hey, up until last year ,and debate about Trae Young, you didn't know that FGA on foul does not count in box score if it doesn't go in so yea.... :roll:

to be fair, you trashed on Young and he has turned out pretty good so far.

Not just trashed... laugh emoji'd at anyone who thought he'd be a starting point guard. He did have a rough start to the season though so it might've looked that way at first. For a guy that has no problem patting himself on the back for every opinion he has that he deems correct, I'm sure pepe can take the L. 8-)


I remember arguing my friends 10 years ago that Chris Paul as main guy will never reach finals.. 10 years later and i'm still right and now they hide :lol:

Young finished season on 29 wins team, with worst defensive net rating in nba, being the worst nba defender.
On 41,8%FG and 32% for 3.
Maybe somwhere that are good numbers. Not on planet Earth tho.
Maybe overdriblling ,cocky midgets with poor sportsmenthsips on bad teams, while shooting contested 30 footers are your cup of tea, not mine.


Everything i said about him in past was factual , and his rookie year proved it. He can't contribute to winning, he is paper in tornado on defense and they( Hawks) are one unlucky ping pong swing away from making dumbest trade since Kobe Bryant.
Rough start? How about 4-22 ( 17% for 3 ) in April?

I stand what i said year and half ago . Any team where he is lead guard will never pass first round. We have decade to figure is it true.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#262 » by MagicFan101 » Sat May 4, 2019 5:22 pm

I want to know what Pepe feels is the 3-4 year deal Vuc “deserves” and is best for Orlando?

Give us a per season dollar amount. $15M? $20M? $25M? Max?

Whatever your beliefs are Pepe, what if a team like Sacramento does in fact max Vuc out? Is your beloved man crush worth overspending on to that degree?


Ultimately, I am a fan of the Orlando Magic ... not any one player. Players come and go. I care about the best interest of the team. Yes, Vuc is certainly good enough to play a positive role in the future of this team but that has to be at the right price.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#263 » by MagicMatic » Sat May 4, 2019 5:42 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:I want to know what Pepe feels is the 3-4 year deal Vuc “deserves” and is best for Orlando?

Give us a per season dollar amount. $15M? $20M? $25M? Max?

Whatever your beliefs are Pepe, what if a team like Sacramento does in fact max Vuc out? Is your beloved man crush worth overspending on to that degree?


Ultimately, I am a fan of the Orlando Magic ... not any one player. Players come and go. I care about the best interest of the team. Yes, Vuc is certainly good enough to play a positive role in the future of this team but that has to be at the right price.


People will argue that keeping Vuc is for the better of the team. I disagree. He keeps us relevant only in the short term as a fringe playoff team. Anything north of 20m and 3+ seasons is a mistake that’ll cost us down the road. Management wanted us to make the playoffs so badly that they decided not to trade him while his value was high and on a decent deal.

Look at Cousins a few years ago in Sacramento. Putting up huge numbers and by far their best player. They are in a better position now without him and have a balanced team with huge potential (could have even taken Doncic). They took a risk and got crucified for it. In reality they weren’t going anywhere in the first place.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#264 » by pepe1991 » Sat May 4, 2019 5:50 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:I want to know what Pepe feels is the 3-4 year deal Vuc “deserves” and is best for Orlando?

Give us a per season dollar amount. $15M? $20M? $25M? Max?

Whatever your beliefs are Pepe, what if a team like Sacramento does in fact max Vuc out? Is your beloved man crush worth overspending on to that degree?


Ultimately, I am a fan of the Orlando Magic ... not any one player. Players come and go. I care about the best interest of the team. Yes, Vuc is certainly good enough to play a positive role in the future of this team but that has to be at the right price.


Well he is not restriced free agent, in theory Kings can offer max and yet he can decide to sign for Warriors on vets minimum , and Magic have no control over it :dontnow:

Nobody ever argued that team has to hold him under all circumstances. They don't and they shouldn't.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#265 » by MagicFan101 » Sat May 4, 2019 5:57 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:I want to know what Pepe feels is the 3-4 year deal Vuc “deserves” and is best for Orlando?

Give us a per season dollar amount. $15M? $20M? $25M? Max?

Whatever your beliefs are Pepe, what if a team like Sacramento does in fact max Vuc out? Is your beloved man crush worth overspending on to that degree?


Ultimately, I am a fan of the Orlando Magic ... not any one player. Players come and go. I care about the best interest of the team. Yes, Vuc is certainly good enough to play a positive role in the future of this team but that has to be at the right price.


Well he is not restriced free agent, in theory Kings can offer max and yet he can decide to sign for Warriors on vets minimum , and Magic have no control over it :dontnow:

Nobody ever argued that team has to hold him under all circumstances. They don't and they shouldn't.



Nice dodge of the question.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#266 » by MagicFan101 » Sat May 4, 2019 6:01 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:I want to know what Pepe feels is the 3-4 year deal Vuc “deserves” and is best for Orlando?

Give us a per season dollar amount. $15M? $20M? $25M? Max?

Whatever your beliefs are Pepe, what if a team like Sacramento does in fact max Vuc out? Is your beloved man crush worth overspending on to that degree?


Ultimately, I am a fan of the Orlando Magic ... not any one player. Players come and go. I care about the best interest of the team. Yes, Vuc is certainly good enough to play a positive role in the future of this team but that has to be at the right price.


People will argue that keeping Vuc is for the better of the team. I disagree. He keeps us relevant only in the short term as a fringe playoff team. Anything north of 20m and 3+ seasons is a mistake that’ll cost us down the road. Management wanted us to make the playoffs so bad that they decided not to trade him while his value was high and on a decent deal.

Look at Cousins a few years ago in Sacramento. Putting up huge numbers and by far their best player. They are in a better position now without him and have a balanced team with huge potential. They took a risk and got crucified for it. In reality they weren’t going anywhere in the first place.


This is why I continue to argue for making Vuc an offer with a similar structure to AG’s new deal.

Give him a declining 4 year deal for $80M total with a player option in year 4. This PO plays to his competitiveness and basically means he gets a large 3 year deal before hitting free agency again ... or a plan-B for year 4 if things don’t go as planned.

4yr-$80M = $25m / $20m / $20m / $15m (po)

This would be my first and final offer. If Sacramento or someone else wants to go bigger then we wish Vuc all the best at his next stop.

Maintain stability for the short term while Bamba develops.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#267 » by pepe1991 » Sat May 4, 2019 6:05 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:I want to know what Pepe feels is the 3-4 year deal Vuc “deserves” and is best for Orlando?

Give us a per season dollar amount. $15M? $20M? $25M? Max?

Whatever your beliefs are Pepe, what if a team like Sacramento does in fact max Vuc out? Is your beloved man crush worth overspending on to that degree?


Ultimately, I am a fan of the Orlando Magic ... not any one player. Players come and go. I care about the best interest of the team. Yes, Vuc is certainly good enough to play a positive role in the future of this team but that has to be at the right price.


Well he is not restriced free agent, in theory Kings can offer max and yet he can decide to sign for Warriors on vets minimum , and Magic have no control over it :dontnow:

Nobody ever argued that team has to hold him under all circumstances. They don't and they shouldn't.



Nice dodge of question.


$20-24M a year

In perfect world 3 year contract.

Vast majority players payed that amount are not top tear stars

24 Steven Adams, C Oklahoma City Thunder $24,157,303
25 Giannis Antetokounmpo, PF Milwaukee Bucks $24,157,303
26 Marc Gasol, C Memphis Grizzlies $24,119,025
27 Kevin Love, PF Cleveland Cavaliers $24,119,025
28 Chandler Parsons, SF Memphis Grizzlies $24,107,258
29 Harrison Barnes, SF Sacramento Kings $24,107,258
30 Nicolas Batum, SF Charlotte Hornets $24,000,000

31 Rudy Gobert, C Utah Jazz $23,241,573
32 Kawhi Leonard, SF Toronto Raptors $23,114,067
33 DeAndre Jordan, C New York Knicks $22,897,200
34 LaMarcus Aldridge, C San Antonio Spurs $22,347,015
35 Serge Ibaka, C Toronto Raptors $21,666,667
36 Aaron Gordon, PF Orlando Magic $21,590,909
37 Danilo Gallinari, SF LA Clippers $21,587,579
38 Victor Oladipo, SG Indiana Pacers $21,000,000
39 Jimmy Butler, SG Philadelphia 76ers $20,445,779
40 Ryan Anderson, PF Phoenix Suns $20,421,546



*Sorry, didn't see question first time *
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#268 » by MagicMatic » Sat May 4, 2019 7:31 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:I want to know what Pepe feels is the 3-4 year deal Vuc “deserves” and is best for Orlando?

Give us a per season dollar amount. $15M? $20M? $25M? Max?

Whatever your beliefs are Pepe, what if a team like Sacramento does in fact max Vuc out? Is your beloved man crush worth overspending on to that degree?


Ultimately, I am a fan of the Orlando Magic ... not any one player. Players come and go. I care about the best interest of the team. Yes, Vuc is certainly good enough to play a positive role in the future of this team but that has to be at the right price.


People will argue that keeping Vuc is for the better of the team. I disagree. He keeps us relevant only in the short term as a fringe playoff team. Anything north of 20m and 3+ seasons is a mistake that’ll cost us down the road. Management wanted us to make the playoffs so bad that they decided not to trade him while his value was high and on a decent deal.

Look at Cousins a few years ago in Sacramento. Putting up huge numbers and by far their best player. They are in a better position now without him and have a balanced team with huge potential. They took a risk and got crucified for it. In reality they weren’t going anywhere in the first place.


This is why I continue to argue for making Vuc an offer with a similar structure to AG’s new deal.

Give him a declining 4 year deal for $80M total with a player option in year 4. This PO plays to his competitiveness and basically means he gets a large 3 year deal before hitting free agency again ... or a plan-B for year 4 if things don’t go as planned.

4yr-$80M = $25m / $20m / $20m / $15m (po)

This would be my first and final offer. If Sacramento or someone else wants to go bigger then we wish Vuc all the best at his next stop.

Maintain stability for the short term while Bamba develops.


You hope for it, but he will want to get paid. I’m in the same boat with you in terms of the terms of what Orlando should be offering him. However, I’m doubtful that’s what they put in front of him or accepts.

I’m also doubtful they choose not to give Ross money as well if they resign Vuc. It’s either all in or neither IMO. A half-assed decision to retain Vuc while losing a large part of Orlando’s offense will be a semi pointless exercise in mediocrity. Ross made it apparent he’s only interested in resigning if Vuc is around.

If the FA market means nothing for the next few years, rebuilding makes more sense. This rather than handing out large contracts to players on a roster that almost missed the playoffs in the eastern conference.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#269 » by ezzzp » Sat May 4, 2019 7:50 pm

tiderulz wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
tiderulz wrote:show the stats you want, Vuc is NOT a top-15 player.

Durant, Curry, Lebron, Lillard, CJ, Harden, Giannis, Beal, Irving, George, Jokic, Oladipo, Kawhi, KAT, Embiid, Simmons, AD, I would all consider better players than Vuc.

Horford, Blake, Aldridge, Derozan, Dangelo, Doncic, Conley, Mitchell, Booker, Westbrook, Jrue, Middleton, Kemba, Klay, - I would consider on the same tier as Vuc.



top 15 this season was whats being discussed- Oladipo
didn’t even play this season

except he did play this season. not the whole season, but he did play.


He missed nearly a month of games in November/December and didn't play another minute after late January...AND he wasn't even playing that good when healthy. He was having worst shooting season of his career since his rookie season (.423 FG% / .512 TS%)
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#270 » by BadMofoPimp » Sat May 4, 2019 7:50 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:I want to know what Pepe feels is the 3-4 year deal Vuc “deserves” and is best for Orlando?

Give us a per season dollar amount. $15M? $20M? $25M? Max?

Whatever your beliefs are Pepe, what if a team like Sacramento does in fact max Vuc out? Is your beloved man crush worth overspending on to that degree?


Ultimately, I am a fan of the Orlando Magic ... not any one player. Players come and go. I care about the best interest of the team. Yes, Vuc is certainly good enough to play a positive role in the future of this team but that has to be at the right price.


People will argue that keeping Vuc is for the better of the team. I disagree. He keeps us relevant only in the short term as a fringe playoff team. Anything north of 20m and 3+ seasons is a mistake that’ll cost us down the road. Management wanted us to make the playoffs so bad that they decided not to trade him while his value was high and on a decent deal.

Look at Cousins a few years ago in Sacramento. Putting up huge numbers and by far their best player. They are in a better position now without him and have a balanced team with huge potential. They took a risk and got crucified for it. In reality they weren’t going anywhere in the first place.


This is why I continue to argue for making Vuc an offer with a similar structure to AG’s new deal.

Give him a declining 4 year deal for $80M total with a player option in year 4. This PO plays to his competitiveness and basically means he gets a large 3 year deal before hitting free agency again ... or a plan-B for year 4 if things don’t go as planned.

4yr-$80M = $25m / $20m / $20m / $15m (po)

This would be my first and final offer. If Sacramento or someone else wants to go bigger then we wish Vuc all the best at his next stop.

Maintain stability for the short term while Bamba develops.


I think he accepts a 4 year $80 or $90m declining deal, maybe not declining that drastically, but close.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#271 » by tiderulz » Sat May 4, 2019 7:51 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
j-ragg wrote:
tiderulz wrote:to be fair, you trashed on Young and he has turned out pretty good so far.

Not just trashed... laugh emoji'd at anyone who thought he'd be a starting point guard. He did have a rough start to the season though so it might've looked that way at first. For a guy that has no problem patting himself on the back for every opinion he has that he deems correct, I'm sure pepe can take the L. 8-)


I remember arguing my friends 10 years ago that Chris Paul as main guy will never reach finals.. 10 years later and i'm still right and now they hide :lol:

Young finished season on 29 wins team, with worst defensive net rating in nba, being the worst nba defender.
On 41,8%FG and 32% for 3.
Maybe somwhere that are good numbers. Not on planet Earth tho.
Maybe overdriblling ,cocky midgets with poor sportsmenthsips on bad teams, while shooting contested 30 footers are your cup of tea, not mine.


Everything i said about him in past was factual , and his rookie year proved it. He can't contribute to winning, he is paper in tornado on defense and they( Hawks) are one unlucky ping pong swing away from making dumbest trade since Kobe Bryant.
Rough start? How about 4-22 ( 17% for 3 ) in April?

I stand what i said year and half ago . Any team where he is lead guard will never pass first round. We have decade to figure is it true.

that is mainly because of a rough transition. By Feb, he was 23 ppg, 43% from 3, 9 apg. He figured out what he could do by mid-december when he started putting up respectable lines. And he is just a rookie. You have no idea if he can contribute to winning after his rookie year. By your judgement, Toronto should have traded Pascal Siakam after his rookie year of 4 ppg, 3 rpg, 14% from 3. or his second year at 22% from 3, 7 ppg 4 rpg. no way he could produce like he could this year.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#272 » by tiderulz » Sat May 4, 2019 7:52 pm

ezzzp wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
ezzzp wrote:

top 15 this season was whats being discussed- Oladipo
didn’t even play this season

except he did play this season. not the whole season, but he did play.


36 out of 82 games...smh

first - 36 games is not "he didnt even play this season". if you want to say he didnt play a full season, say that. Dont try and make it sound worse than it actually was.

second - are you saying that Dipo is not a better player than Vuc?
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#273 » by ezzzp » Sat May 4, 2019 8:03 pm

tiderulz wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
tiderulz wrote:except he did play this season. not the whole season, but he did play.


36 out of 82 games...smh

first - 36 games is not "he didnt even play this season". if you want to say he didnt play a full season, say that. Dont try and make it sound worse than it actually was.

second - are you saying that Dipo is not a better player than Vuc?


He missed nearly a month of games in November/December and didn't play another minute after late January...doesn't even qualify for leader boards.

...and yes I'm saying Vucevic was better than Oladipo THIS year. Oladipo was having the worst shooting season of his career since his rookie season (.423 FG% / .512 TS%)

Go look:

http://bkref.com/tiny/sTcse
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#274 » by ezzzp » Sat May 4, 2019 8:16 pm

Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:Top 15? You're still trying to debate this? Calling me bias at this point is just absurd.

If he's Top 15, can he be traded for another Top 15 player?


that’s the silliest production assessment I have ever heard - it’s not fantasy league being discussed

what is absurd is your denial of the stats and nba coaches opinions

I knew you wouldn't answer it so I'm done responding to you on this topic. Not another team in the league who would give us their guy for Vuc.


I knew you would respond with a totally irrelevant question in order to tangent discussion away from the topic that stats and professional experts counter your pov.

1st you don't know that another team wouldn't trade for Vucevic, and you don't know his future contract, and you don't know what his future value is...STOP making assumptions that you have no knowledge of, nobody does - its the FUTURE.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#275 » by MagicMatic » Sat May 4, 2019 8:34 pm

tiderulz wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
tiderulz wrote:except he did play this season. not the whole season, but he did play.


36 out of 82 games...smh

first - 36 games is not "he didnt even play this season". if you want to say he didnt play a full season, say that. Dont try and make it sound worse than it actually was.

second - are you saying that Dipo is not a better player than Vuc?


Forget it tide. You are now trapped in a series of endless condescending back and forth bias arguments.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#276 » by Def Swami » Sat May 4, 2019 8:44 pm

tiderulz wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
tiderulz wrote:except he did play this season. not the whole season, but he did play.


36 out of 82 games...smh

first - 36 games is not "he didnt even play this season". if you want to say he didnt play a full season, say that. Dont try and make it sound worse than it actually was.

second - are you saying that Dipo is not a better player than Vuc?

Oladipo was not a better player than Vucevic this year, even in all the games that he did play.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#277 » by ezzzp » Sat May 4, 2019 8:45 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:This is why I continue to argue for making Vuc an offer with a similar structure to AG’s new deal.

Give him a declining 4 year deal for $80M total with a player option in year 4. This PO plays to his competitiveness and basically means he gets a large 3 year deal before hitting free agency again ... or a plan-B for year 4 if things don’t go as planned.

4yr-$80M = $25m / $20m / $20m / $15m (po)

This would be my first and final offer. If Sacramento or someone else wants to go bigger then we wish Vuc all the best at his next stop.

Maintain stability for the short term while Bamba develops.


I think the highest possible annual decline is 8% (same as highest possible raise):

(19-20) $25m (20-21) $23m (21-22) $21m (22-23) $19m = 4yr / $88 million

I agree that they'll likely give him a player opt out in final season. I could even see them giving him an opt out in the 3d year as well. That gives Vucevic the opportunity to chase another big contract while still 30 year's old; without sacrificing his 4 year security.

Another incentive the Magic can use is to give him a 15% trade kicker for the first two years of contract. That gives him assurances that the Magic won't just flip him at the trade deadline 6 months after signing. Even though his wealth makes relocation not as big deal, its a painless (for Magic) convenience that gives him and his wife/newborn two years of guaranteed stability at important time.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#278 » by ezzzp » Sat May 4, 2019 8:48 pm

Def Swami wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
36 out of 82 games...smh

first - 36 games is not "he didnt even play this season". if you want to say he didnt play a full season, say that. Dont try and make it sound worse than it actually was.

second - are you saying that Dipo is not a better player than Vuc?

Oladipo was not a better player than Vucevic this year, even in all the games that he did play.


The statistics disagree with you. Go look: http://bkref.com/tiny/sTcse

Oladipo was having a bad year, most of it related to injury that eventually ended his season.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#279 » by ezzzp » Sat May 4, 2019 8:51 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
36 out of 82 games...smh

first - 36 games is not "he didnt even play this season". if you want to say he didnt play a full season, say that. Dont try and make it sound worse than it actually was.

second - are you saying that Dipo is not a better player than Vuc?


Forget it tide. You are now trapped in a series of endless condescending back and forth bias arguments.


By bias you must mean crystal clear statistical proof AND the opinion of NBA coaches.

Top 10 in all major advanced stats:

9th in PER
8th in RPM
7th in PIE
9th in VORP
8th in BPM
10th in WS

+ Selected by NBA coaches (not popularity contest vote of fans) to All-Star game. Go dig up comments about what NBA coaches think about Vucevic, don't do it if you don't want your outdated opinion crushed.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#280 » by MagicMatic » Sat May 4, 2019 9:25 pm

ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
tiderulz wrote:first - 36 games is not "he didnt even play this season". if you want to say he didnt play a full season, say that. Dont try and make it sound worse than it actually was.

second - are you saying that Dipo is not a better player than Vuc?


Forget it tide. You are now trapped in a series of endless condescending back and forth bias arguments.


By bias you must mean crystal clear statistical proof AND the opinion of NBA coaches.

Top 10 in all major advanced stats:

9th in PER
8th in RPM
7th in PIE
9th in VORP
8th in BPM
10th in WS

+ Selected by NBA coaches (not popularity contest vote of fans) to All-Star game. Go dig up comments about what NBA coaches think about Vucevic, don't do it if you don't want your antiquated opinion crushed.


I’m not doubting his production this season. Nobody is.

However, his production comes with knowing he is in a situation that benefits his ability to put up the numbers. That is a factor whether you like it or not. Westbrook also puts up crazy numbers every season with limited options available as well, but stats don’t always say everything 100% of the time.

Put Vuc on a team, capable of winning a championship, and he’s a third option at best. In Orlando he’s going to put up numbers on a fringe playoff team in the east. Cousins put up huge numbers before being traded to New Orleans. It meant nothing being a non contender and they look better now without him. KAT also has amazing stats, better than Vuc this season, and it means nothing with an arguably better roster than Orlando.

Stats don’t tell the whole story.

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