ImageImageImageImage

Why aren't we running the offense thru AG?

Moderators: SOUL, Def Swami, UCFJayBird, ChosenSavior, Knightro, Howard Mass

User avatar
Skin
RealGM
Posts: 14,862
And1: 6,822
Joined: Jul 03, 2009
   

Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#41 » by Skin » Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:50 am

J_Magic wrote:Gordon is too much afraid of contact to be a truly special player in the league.

I've never once seen him posterize anyone. He has terrible upper body strength.
Very streaky shooter - needs to be a 3rd-4th option. It's time we face that he is not an All Star level talent. He is what he is.
His ceiling is Shawn Marion if we can get a Point Guard that can elevate everyone else.

I believe in this team, but we simply lack that dynamic player. Maybe and hopefully Fultz is that player.

I agree with that. If he was more physical he'd be a way more formidable offensive player.
User avatar
fendilim
RealGM
Posts: 26,947
And1: 3,276
Joined: Jun 11, 2002
Location: 孫悟空, 时间太?!

Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#42 » by fendilim » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:15 am

Skin wrote:
J_Magic wrote:Gordon is too much afraid of contact to be a truly special player in the league.

I've never once seen him posterize anyone. He has terrible upper body strength.
Very streaky shooter - needs to be a 3rd-4th option. It's time we face that he is not an All Star level talent. He is what he is.
His ceiling is Shawn Marion if we can get a Point Guard that can elevate everyone else.

I believe in this team, but we simply lack that dynamic player. Maybe and hopefully Fultz is that player.

I agree with that. If he was more physical he'd be a way more formidable offensive player.

I still think a lot of him not being able to posterize people or finish strong has a lot to do with his inability to jump off one foot. Probably why his eurosteps look awkward as well. He needs to gather his 2 feet first before elevating. This was Donovan Mitchell’s weakness prior to the draft last year, but he was able to improve on it.
Image
pepe1991
General Manager
Posts: 9,840
And1: 7,882
Joined: Jan 10, 2016
   

Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#43 » by pepe1991 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:33 am

Players A and B in 5th seasons:

both 6'9 athletic wings

Player A
16 ppg
7,4 rpg
3,4 apg
45% FG
34,9% for 3
3,2 FTA
73% FT
53,8% TS
0,8 BPM


Player B
19,8 ppg
6,2 rpg
2,8 apg
47% FG
39,8% for 3
4,5 FTA
80% FTs
54,8% TS
2,7 BPM


Both players were treated as " next big thing " for years, one went from "next star" to " unefficienct ballstopping chucker" and become flagship example of bad player . Both players have crazy athletic tools, but average BBIQ and kind a poor ballhandling skills.
Player who isn't Gordon here went to have LOOONG career, matter of fact still plays ,but from what people thought he will become, to what he actually did become, gap is huge.
"A straight path never leads anywhere except to the objective."
Andre Gide
User avatar
tiderulz
RealGM
Posts: 28,794
And1: 10,100
Joined: Jun 16, 2010
Location: Atlanta
 

Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#44 » by tiderulz » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:36 am

pepe1991 wrote:Players A and B in 5th seasons:

both 6'9 athletic wings

Player A
16 ppg
7,4 rpg
3,4 apg
45% FG
34,9% for 3
3,2 FTA
73% FT
53,8% TS
0,8 BPM


Player B
19,8 ppg
6,2 rpg
2,8 apg
47% FG
39,8% for 3
4,5 FTA
80% FTs
54,8% TS
2,7 BPM


Both players were treated as " next big thing " for years, one went from "next star" to " unefficienct ballstopping chucker" and become flagship example of bad player . Both players have crazy athletic tools, but average BBIQ and kind a poor ballhandling skills.
Player who isn't Gordon here went to have LOOONG career, matter of fact still plays ,but from what people thought he will become, to what he actually did become, gap is huge.

so who are they?
pepe1991
General Manager
Posts: 9,840
And1: 7,882
Joined: Jan 10, 2016
   

Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#45 » by pepe1991 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:53 am

tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Players A and B in 5th seasons:

both 6'9 athletic wings

Player A
16 ppg
7,4 rpg
3,4 apg
45% FG
34,9% for 3
3,2 FTA
73% FT
53,8% TS
0,8 BPM


Player B
19,8 ppg
6,2 rpg
2,8 apg
47% FG
39,8% for 3
4,5 FTA
80% FTs
54,8% TS
2,7 BPM


Both players were treated as " next big thing " for years, one went from "next star" to " unefficienct ballstopping chucker" and become flagship example of bad player . Both players have crazy athletic tools, but average BBIQ and kind a poor ballhandling skills.
Player who isn't Gordon here went to have LOOONG career, matter of fact still plays ,but from what people thought he will become, to what he actually did become, gap is huge.

so who are they?


A) is Gordon
B) is Rudy Gay

Rudy hadd odd career, went from "future allstar" to being one of most hated players when analytics become viral, salavged his career in Sacramento and San Antonio
"A straight path never leads anywhere except to the objective."
Andre Gide
User avatar
tiderulz
RealGM
Posts: 28,794
And1: 10,100
Joined: Jun 16, 2010
Location: Atlanta
 

Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#46 » by tiderulz » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:10 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Players A and B in 5th seasons:

both 6'9 athletic wings

Player A
16 ppg
7,4 rpg
3,4 apg
45% FG
34,9% for 3
3,2 FTA
73% FT
53,8% TS
0,8 BPM


Player B
19,8 ppg
6,2 rpg
2,8 apg
47% FG
39,8% for 3
4,5 FTA
80% FTs
54,8% TS
2,7 BPM


Both players were treated as " next big thing " for years, one went from "next star" to " unefficienct ballstopping chucker" and become flagship example of bad player . Both players have crazy athletic tools, but average BBIQ and kind a poor ballhandling skills.
Player who isn't Gordon here went to have LOOONG career, matter of fact still plays ,but from what people thought he will become, to what he actually did become, gap is huge.

so who are they?


A) is Gordon
B) is Rudy Gay

Rudy hadd odd career, went from "future allstar" to being one of most hated players when analytics become viral, salavged his career in Sacramento and San Antonio

huh.

thats an interesting comparison
User avatar
BadMofoPimp
RealGM
Posts: 45,698
And1: 10,616
Joined: Oct 12, 2003
Location: In the Paint

Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#47 » by BadMofoPimp » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:26 pm

Just last week the haterz were crying must get rid of AG cuz he ain't leading this team nowhere to now we need to run offense through him. At least organizations are not run by management who love one week and hate the next. LOLOL!
Image

Provin Ya'll Wrong!!!
Bensational
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 22,174
And1: 7,980
Joined: Apr 10, 2001
     

Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#48 » by Bensational » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:11 am

Oh, we're back to the Rudy Gay comparison? Great. Gordon obviously played too well to continue calling him Thad Young, so now we've upgraded to Gay?

Meanwhile, only a month ago someone admitted Gordon was Millsap-like. Why the sudden change in narrative? Oh, right, because the agenda this time is to hang **** on Gordon and the Gay comparison does a better job of that.

Doesn't change the fact the Vuc and Fournier suuuuucked all series and Gordon outplayed the both of them. I can tell that's really got under the skin of some haters who are now working double time to discredit it.
User avatar
MagicMatic
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,617
And1: 5,432
Joined: May 30, 2016
 

Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#49 » by MagicMatic » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:34 am

BadMofoPimp wrote:Just last week the haterz were crying must get rid of AG cuz he ain't leading this team nowhere to now we need to run offense through him. At least organizations are not run by management who love one week and hate the next. LOLOL!


No one being realistic wants to “run offense” through AG.
pepe1991
General Manager
Posts: 9,840
And1: 7,882
Joined: Jan 10, 2016
   

Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#50 » by pepe1991 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:23 am

Bensational wrote:Oh, we're back to the Rudy Gay comparison? Great. Gordon obviously played too well to continue calling him Thad Young, so now we've upgraded to Gay?

Meanwhile, only a month ago someone admitted Gordon was Millsap-like. Why the sudden change in narrative? Oh, right, because the agenda this time is to hang **** on Gordon and the Gay comparison does a better job of that.

Doesn't change the fact the Vuc and Fournier suuuuucked all series and Gordon outplayed the both of them. I can tell that's really got under the skin of some haters who are now working double time to discredit it.


Talking about personal agenda, comming from guy who had meldown, left forum , got exposed by other posters and other moderators for blocking people who don't agree with him, went hiding for a year, when Vučević had great season, just to return when he sucked ?Agenda filled much ?

As for comparisons, Rudy Gay- Gordon comparisons are clear

http://bkref.com/tiny/ZEFSS

Millsap was allstar once.

Evan and Vuc sucked ?And who is arguing that ?

Gordon outplayed them ? How can you outplay own teammates if you all play together and getting waxed ? He played better than them but much like them ,didn't get job done.

Also he did not take game to next level with playoffs, he just played like he did before playoffs.

15 ppg ( below his season average )
54% TS ( idential to season average)
52% FTs ( below season average)
40% for 3 ( 34% in regular season)

You still act that he had amazing playoffs, in reality he averaged 10 points in two close games ( shooting 7-20), and 25,20 and 11 in blowouts. But you didn't return to talk with any objectivity, but to push agenda ,again.

Who da f**** ever said, during this playoffs that Evan played well ? That person only exists in your world so you can accuse people and attack them for something nobody ever said.

Try harder. OR go MIA again.
"A straight path never leads anywhere except to the objective."
Andre Gide
User avatar
MagicMatic
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,617
And1: 5,432
Joined: May 30, 2016
 

Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#51 » by MagicMatic » Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:52 am

pepe1991 wrote:
Bensational wrote:Oh, we're back to the Rudy Gay comparison? Great. Gordon obviously played too well to continue calling him Thad Young, so now we've upgraded to Gay?

Meanwhile, only a month ago someone admitted Gordon was Millsap-like. Why the sudden change in narrative? Oh, right, because the agenda this time is to hang **** on Gordon and the Gay comparison does a better job of that.

Doesn't change the fact the Vuc and Fournier suuuuucked all series and Gordon outplayed the both of them. I can tell that's really got under the skin of some haters who are now working double time to discredit it.


Talking about personal agenda, comming from guy who had meldown, left forum , got exposed by other posters and other moderators for blocking people who don't agree with him, went hiding for a year, when Vučević had great season, just to return when he sucked ?Agenda filled much ?

As for comparisons, Rudy Gay- Gordon comparisons are clear

http://bkref.com/tiny/ZEFSS

Millsap was allstar once.

Evan and Vuc sucked ?And who is arguing that ?

Gordon outplayed them ? How can you outplay own teammates if you all play together and getting waxed ? He played better than them but much like them ,didn't get job done.

Also he did not take game to next level with playoffs, he just played like he did before playoffs.

15 ppg ( below his season average )
54% TS ( idential to season average)
52% FTs ( below season average)
40% for 3 ( 34% in regular season)

You still act that he had amazing playoffs, in reality he averaged 10 points in two close games ( shooting 7-20), and 25,20 and 11 in blowouts. But you didn't return to talk with any objectivity, but to push agenda ,again.

Who da f**** ever said, during this playoffs that Evan played well ? That person only exists in your world so you can accuse people and attack them for something nobody ever said.

Try harder. OR go MIA again.


I see why you are making the comparison, but it’s really not so simple to classify him as a player like Rudy Gay (which i don’t really see as a slight). I just don’t think they are similar players at all. I’ve been one of the more vocal posters about AG for a variety of reasons, but Ive come to accept what he is and isn’t.

This series proved that for all his shortcomings, he can still utilize his athleticism and situational motor. AG is a system player in my opinion. He is going to thrive in some situations and become stagnant in others. The Raptors series was fast paced and they took Vuc completely out of the equation for the majority of it. No surprise AG excelled at a quicker full court tempo and utilized his athleticism and face up game.

That being said, I would never want Orlando to “run offense” through him. Mostly because he’s not usually a playmaker in the half court, doesn’t reliably shoot off the dribble, and when he does it’s always a questionable low% shot selection. I’m in the camp that doesn’t think he’s going to get exponentially better, but I also don’t think Orlando has been utilizing him to his fullest potential with lack of a real point guard and a slow offense reliant on Vuc.
pepe1991
General Manager
Posts: 9,840
And1: 7,882
Joined: Jan 10, 2016
   

Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#52 » by pepe1991 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:05 am

MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Bensational wrote:Oh, we're back to the Rudy Gay comparison? Great. Gordon obviously played too well to continue calling him Thad Young, so now we've upgraded to Gay?

Meanwhile, only a month ago someone admitted Gordon was Millsap-like. Why the sudden change in narrative? Oh, right, because the agenda this time is to hang **** on Gordon and the Gay comparison does a better job of that.

Doesn't change the fact the Vuc and Fournier suuuuucked all series and Gordon outplayed the both of them. I can tell that's really got under the skin of some haters who are now working double time to discredit it.


Talking about personal agenda, comming from guy who had meldown, left forum , got exposed by other posters and other moderators for blocking people who don't agree with him, went hiding for a year, when Vučević had great season, just to return when he sucked ?Agenda filled much ?

As for comparisons, Rudy Gay- Gordon comparisons are clear

http://bkref.com/tiny/ZEFSS

Millsap was allstar once.

Evan and Vuc sucked ?And who is arguing that ?

Gordon outplayed them ? How can you outplay own teammates if you all play together and getting waxed ? He played better than them but much like them ,didn't get job done.

Also he did not take game to next level with playoffs, he just played like he did before playoffs.

15 ppg ( below his season average )
54% TS ( idential to season average)
52% FTs ( below season average)
40% for 3 ( 34% in regular season)

You still act that he had amazing playoffs, in reality he averaged 10 points in two close games ( shooting 7-20), and 25,20 and 11 in blowouts. But you didn't return to talk with any objectivity, but to push agenda ,again.

Who da f**** ever said, during this playoffs that Evan played well ? That person only exists in your world so you can accuse people and attack them for something nobody ever said.

Try harder. OR go MIA again.


I see why you are making the comparison, but it’s really not so simple to classify him as a player like Rudy Gay (which i don’t really see as a slight). I just don’t think they are similar players at all. I’ve been one of the more vocal posters about AG for a variety of reasons, but Ive come to accept what he is and isn’t.

This series proved that for all his shortcomings he can still utilize his athleticism and situational motor. AG is a system player in my opinion. He is going to thrive in some situations and become stagnant in others. The Raptors series was fast paced and they took Vuc completely out of the equation for the majority of it. No surprise AG excelled at a quicker full court tempo and utilized his athleticism and face up game.

That being said, I would never want Orlando to “run offense” through him. Mostly because he’s not usually a playmaker in the half court, doesn’t reliably shoot off the dribble, and when he does it’s always a questionable low% shot selection. I’m in the camp that doesn’t think he’s going to get exponentially better, but I also don’t think Orlando has been utilizing him to his fullest potential with lack of a real point guard and a slow offense reliant on Vuc.



Despite not being targeted, not being focus of defense ,and even being guarded by Green and Vleet ( missmatches) at times, and upthempo, his PPG/TS saw no improvment .
Gordon made 8 threes in playoffs,
1 was when closest defender was at least 4 feet away from him (open shot by nba standards , shot 1-7 )
6 ( out of 10 attemps) when closest defender was at least 6 feet away from him ( wide open).

That's 7 of 8 threes were not really guarded by anybody. And his 3% is only thing that went up compared to regular season. Mostly by design of Raptors defense to leave him.

I have never said Gordon is terrible or even bad player. I actually like he is really good role player. But for whatever reason to Ben and others that's insult because they still think he is next Moses that will split sea.

Rudy is player that has 12years career, while averaging 17 ppg for whole lenght of it. He was starter for vast majority of that 12years, before huring achillies. He is not elite player, but good enough to last 4 times more than average lenght of nba career. Again, that's somehow insulting to Ben , that you compare his favorite boy to ex allstar MIllsap and career starters who are in nba for 10+ years.

But comming from guy who blocked 3 users for posting personal opinion, because he didn't like it and locked thread to stop "negative" comments abouthis boiii expecting anything objective and logical is too much.
"A straight path never leads anywhere except to the objective."
Andre Gide
User avatar
MagicMatic
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,617
And1: 5,432
Joined: May 30, 2016
 

Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#53 » by MagicMatic » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:32 am

pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Talking about personal agenda, comming from guy who had meldown, left forum , got exposed by other posters and other moderators for blocking people who don't agree with him, went hiding for a year, when Vučević had great season, just to return when he sucked ?Agenda filled much ?

As for comparisons, Rudy Gay- Gordon comparisons are clear

http://bkref.com/tiny/ZEFSS

Millsap was allstar once.

Evan and Vuc sucked ?And who is arguing that ?

Gordon outplayed them ? How can you outplay own teammates if you all play together and getting waxed ? He played better than them but much like them ,didn't get job done.

Also he did not take game to next level with playoffs, he just played like he did before playoffs.

15 ppg ( below his season average )
54% TS ( idential to season average)
52% FTs ( below season average)
40% for 3 ( 34% in regular season)

You still act that he had amazing playoffs, in reality he averaged 10 points in two close games ( shooting 7-20), and 25,20 and 11 in blowouts. But you didn't return to talk with any objectivity, but to push agenda ,again.

Who da f**** ever said, during this playoffs that Evan played well ? That person only exists in your world so you can accuse people and attack them for something nobody ever said.

Try harder. OR go MIA again.


I see why you are making the comparison, but it’s really not so simple to classify him as a player like Rudy Gay (which i don’t really see as a slight). I just don’t think they are similar players at all. I’ve been one of the more vocal posters about AG for a variety of reasons, but Ive come to accept what he is and isn’t.

This series proved that for all his shortcomings he can still utilize his athleticism and situational motor. AG is a system player in my opinion. He is going to thrive in some situations and become stagnant in others. The Raptors series was fast paced and they took Vuc completely out of the equation for the majority of it. No surprise AG excelled at a quicker full court tempo and utilized his athleticism and face up game.

That being said, I would never want Orlando to “run offense” through him. Mostly because he’s not usually a playmaker in the half court, doesn’t reliably shoot off the dribble, and when he does it’s always a questionable low% shot selection. I’m in the camp that doesn’t think he’s going to get exponentially better, but I also don’t think Orlando has been utilizing him to his fullest potential with lack of a real point guard and a slow offense reliant on Vuc.



Despite not being targeted, not being focus of defense ,and even being guarded by Green and Vleet ( missmatches) at times, and upthempo, his PPG/TS saw no improvment .
Gordon made 8 threes in playoffs,
1 was when closest defender was at least 4 feet away from him (open shot by nba standards , shot 1-7 )
6 ( out of 10 attemps) when closest defender was at least 6 feet away from him ( wide open).

That's 7 of 8 threes were not really guarded by anybody. And his 3% is only thing that went up compared to regular season. Mostly by design of Raptors defense to leave him.

I have never said Gordon is terrible or even bad player. I actually like he is really good role player.


AG is one of Orlando’s best players and so is Vucevic. However, that statement doesn’t hold a lot of weight compared to the talent most other competitive nba teams are fielding. That’s the fundamental difference that a lot of Magic fans can’t separate.

People are going to be more critical of the higher paid players on the team Evan, AG, and now Vuc if he is resigned for what we are expecting Orlando to lay down and pay him after an abysmal playoff performance.

Orlando’s roster issues aren’t to be taken at face value. Merely adding talent doesn’t always give the same result. System, rotations, etc. will always play a role. I was happy during the playoffs to see AG fighting on possessions when the rest of the roster looked completely useless. Sure, we probably shouldn’t be putting all of our stock into one short playoff series, but it is something people will notice.
Bensational
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 22,174
And1: 7,980
Joined: Apr 10, 2001
     

Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#54 » by Bensational » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:37 am

pepe1991 wrote:
Bensational wrote:Oh, we're back to the Rudy Gay comparison? Great. Gordon obviously played too well to continue calling him Thad Young, so now we've upgraded to Gay?

Meanwhile, only a month ago someone admitted Gordon was Millsap-like. Why the sudden change in narrative? Oh, right, because the agenda this time is to hang **** on Gordon and the Gay comparison does a better job of that.

Doesn't change the fact the Vuc and Fournier suuuuucked all series and Gordon outplayed the both of them. I can tell that's really got under the skin of some haters who are now working double time to discredit it.


Talking about personal agenda, comming from guy who had meldown, left forum , got exposed by other posters and other moderators for blocking people who don't agree with him, went hiding for a year, when Vučević had great season, just to return when he sucked ?Agenda filled much ?

As for comparisons, Rudy Gay- Gordon comparisons are clear

http://bkref.com/tiny/ZEFSS

Millsap was allstar once.

Evan and Vuc sucked ?And who is arguing that ?

Gordon outplayed them ? How can you outplay own teammates if you all play together and getting waxed ? He played better than them but much like them ,didn't get job done.

Also he did not take game to next level with playoffs, he just played like he did before playoffs.

15 ppg ( below his season average )
54% TS ( idential to season average)
52% FTs ( below season average)
40% for 3 ( 34% in regular season)

You still act that he had amazing playoffs, in reality he averaged 10 points in two close games ( shooting 7-20), and 25,20 and 11 in blowouts. But you didn't return to talk with any objectivity, but to push agenda ,again.

Who da f**** ever said, during this playoffs that Evan played well ? That person only exists in your world so you can accuse people and attack them for something nobody ever said.

Try harder. OR go MIA again.


My agenda has always been about rational, objective conversations about our young and developing players. Your agenda seems to mostly be about hating life, but you seem to pick certain players to focus on and you hinge more criticisms on them, and you constantly move goal posts to make their 'failures' fit your narrative at the time.

Even now, for some reason Gordon is the ire of your grievances. Him and Isaac. Your take aways from this post season run have been that those two represent the greatest weakness in the team. Yet you seem to not be acknowledging just how far short of the mark Vuc and Fournier fell from being even remotely acceptable. THAT is why I mention them. I never 'accused' anyone of saying Fournier played well - that's in YOUR head. I just keep bringing him up because for some reason you keep giving them a free pass and directing the criticism at the one player who at least managed to play averagely, and the other player who provides elite defense, when Fournier and DJ didn't contribute anything on either end (except DJ's one outlier game). Considering the hissy fit you threw in a sweater vest thread about Fournier not getting respect, I think your bias is pretty clear. At least own up to it.

You're going out of your way to downplay Gordon's performances, but here's the rub: at least he performed. Did Vuc? No. Did Fournier? No. Where's your breakdown on their scoring numbers?

And you continue to bring up Gordon being defended by Van Vleet and Green. Do you really not understand how that was intentional of the offense? To get Gordon on a mismatch that he can exploit. Or do you actually believe that Toronto assigned Vleet to defend Gordon? That was the advantage of playing uptempo, and not giving Toronto a chance to settle into their half court defense, because it forced the closest defender to guard Gordon. There were a bunch of times DJ got caught on a switch with Gasol - do you actually believe the gameplan was for DJ to defend their C? Come on, bro.

I've never said anything about Gordon playing up a level. I've simply said he stepped up to the playoff pressure. He's the only one on our team who did so. I've never said he deserved star treatment. I even stated in this thread that the purpose of running the offense through him would be to help pull defenders off Vuc and Ross to free them up for better looks. And that's exactly what Gordon did when he was setting up Vuc for his only good quarter of basketball in these playoffs.

And dude, you must have missed my post when I confessed that I was posting as BadHombre. Yeah, I took a break to get away from the rubbish you fill this forum up with, but I'm not sitting back anymore. I've called you on your bull a bunch already, and you've made yourself look foolish too many times to count already. Do yourself a favour and stop now so you don't have to go through it again. You've picked the wrong player to try to criticize after he was the lone reliable performer in the playoffs. You backed the wrong horses in Vuc and Fournier who got exposed hard in the playoffs. I know now you want to dance around contrived statistics to try and deflect attention away from that, but for once in your life just be a man and admit that you're wrong.
pepe1991
General Manager
Posts: 9,840
And1: 7,882
Joined: Jan 10, 2016
   

Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#55 » by pepe1991 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:49 am

Guy who blocked people because he didn't agree with them , went missing whole year when Vučević was carrynig this team to playoffs, retuned when he started to struggle , calling up Evan and Vučević in every post , when nobody really argues that they struggle is calling himself objective? Returned as fake account just to pick fight me ? Dude, and you have guts to call yourself objective ? Holy Jesus :o :crazy: You have some issues man , that expand over basketball related forum.


I hope you take permanent vacation from forum now. Because you are easly one of most irrational posters out there ,filled with perosnal bias and agendas.
"A straight path never leads anywhere except to the objective."
Andre Gide
basketballRob
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,298
And1: 1,720
Joined: May 05, 2014
     

Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#56 » by basketballRob » Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:47 am

pepe1991 wrote:Guy who blocked people because he didn't agree with them , went missing whole year when Vučević was carrynig this team to playoffs, retuned when he started to struggle , calling up Evan and Vučević in every post , when nobody really argues that they struggle is calling himself objective? Returned as fake account just to pick fight me ? Dude, and you have guts to call yourself objective ? Holy Jesus :o :crazy: You have some issues man , that expand over basketball related forum.


I hope you take permanent vacation from forum now. Because you are easly one of most irrational posters out there ,filled with perosnal bias and agendas.
It's obvious now and I've been saying it all year that you can't feature Vuc and Fournier in our offense. Both players can be shutdown when the defense tightens up.

We saw early in the year when Donovan Mitchell had like 34 on Fournier and he was 1-12. Athletic players can completely shut him down.

Vuc had a long stretch where he couldn't hit a basket in crunch time and I think we lost like 5 in a row. Vuc must of been 0-20 in that stretch in the last 6 minutes.

I think we're better off developing Bamba who is more athletic.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app
zaymon
Rookie
Posts: 1,247
And1: 688
Joined: Jul 01, 2015
   

Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#57 » by zaymon » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:25 am

basketballRob wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Guy who blocked people because he didn't agree with them , went missing whole year when Vučević was carrynig this team to playoffs, retuned when he started to struggle , calling up Evan and Vučević in every post , when nobody really argues that they struggle is calling himself objective? Returned as fake account just to pick fight me ? Dude, and you have guts to call yourself objective ? Holy Jesus :o :crazy: You have some issues man , that expand over basketball related forum.


I hope you take permanent vacation from forum now. Because you are easly one of most irrational posters out there ,filled with perosnal bias and agendas.
It's obvious now and I've been saying it all year that you can't feature Vuc and Fournier in our offense. Both players can be shutdown when the defense tightens up.

We saw early in the year when Donovan Mitchell had like 34 on Fournier and he was 1-12. Athletic players can completely shut him down.

Vuc had a long stretch where he couldn't hit a basket in crunch time and I think we lost like 5 in a row. Vuc must of been 0-20 in that stretch in the last 6 minutes.

I think we're better off developing Bamba who is more athletic.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

How many players cant be shut down when your team is not good enough? Lakers have goat candidate and they were not even close to playoffs. Question is how hard is to shut down a player and if its worth it. On our team hardest player to shut down was Vucevic, then Ross, then Fournier, then Dj, then Gordon. Most of Gordon big games are when others create for him or transition offense/ put backs. Raptors gameplan more for Fournier than for Gordon imo. Aaron is getting better but he didnt get as much respect as our other guys. He hit more open shots and thats good for him, but he still has a long way to be on Fournier or Vucevic level offensively.
Bold Predictions:
1. Deandre Ayton biggest disappointment of 2018 draft.
2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
basketballRob
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,298
And1: 1,720
Joined: May 05, 2014
     

Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#58 » by basketballRob » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:34 am

zaymon wrote:
basketballRob wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Guy who blocked people because he didn't agree with them , went missing whole year when Vučević was carrynig this team to playoffs, retuned when he started to struggle , calling up Evan and Vučević in every post , when nobody really argues that they struggle is calling himself objective? Returned as fake account just to pick fight me ? Dude, and you have guts to call yourself objective ? Holy Jesus :o :crazy: You have some issues man , that expand over basketball related forum.


I hope you take permanent vacation from forum now. Because you are easly one of most irrational posters out there ,filled with perosnal bias and agendas.
It's obvious now and I've been saying it all year that you can't feature Vuc and Fournier in our offense. Both players can be shutdown when the defense tightens up.

We saw early in the year when Donovan Mitchell had like 34 on Fournier and he was 1-12. Athletic players can completely shut him down.

Vuc had a long stretch where he couldn't hit a basket in crunch time and I think we lost like 5 in a row. Vuc must of been 0-20 in that stretch in the last 6 minutes.

I think we're better off developing Bamba who is more athletic.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

How many players cant be shut down when your team is not good enough? Lakers have goat candidate and they were not even close to playoffs. Question is how hard is to shut down a player and if its worth it. On our team hardest player to shut down was Vucevic, then Ross, then Fournier, then Dj, then Gordon. Most of Gordon big games are when others create for him or transition offense/ put backs. Raptors gameplan more for Fournier than for Gordon imo. Aaron is getting better but he didnt get as much respect as our other guys. He hit more open shots and thats good for him, but he still has a long way to be on Fournier or Vucevic level offensively.
I think Weham go in a different direction this year. We can't go to far with Vuc and Fournier as our featured offensive players.

I think Orlando ran plays for Vuc and Fournier as much as teams game planned for them. Not sure if they ran plays for anyone other than Vuc, Fournier, and Ross.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app
zaymon
Rookie
Posts: 1,247
And1: 688
Joined: Jul 01, 2015
   

Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#59 » by zaymon » Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:57 am

basketballRob wrote:
zaymon wrote:
basketballRob wrote:It's obvious now and I've been saying it all year that you can't feature Vuc and Fournier in our offense. Both players can be shutdown when the defense tightens up.

We saw early in the year when Donovan Mitchell had like 34 on Fournier and he was 1-12. Athletic players can completely shut him down.

Vuc had a long stretch where he couldn't hit a basket in crunch time and I think we lost like 5 in a row. Vuc must of been 0-20 in that stretch in the last 6 minutes.

I think we're better off developing Bamba who is more athletic.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

How many players cant be shut down when your team is not good enough? Lakers have goat candidate and they were not even close to playoffs. Question is how hard is to shut down a player and if its worth it. On our team hardest player to shut down was Vucevic, then Ross, then Fournier, then Dj, then Gordon. Most of Gordon big games are when others create for him or transition offense/ put backs. Raptors gameplan more for Fournier than for Gordon imo. Aaron is getting better but he didnt get as much respect as our other guys. He hit more open shots and thats good for him, but he still has a long way to be on Fournier or Vucevic level offensively.
I think Weham go in a different direction this year. We can't go to far with Vuc and Fournier as our featured offensive players.

I think Orlando ran plays for Vuc and Fournier as much as teams game planned for them. Not sure if they ran plays for anyone other than Vuc, Fournier, and Ross.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

I agree we cant go far with Vucevic and Fournier as our only featured players. Thats why Weltman and Hammond are hyping Fultz and he cant even shoot right now. Thats says a lot and its scary. We run plays for Vuc, Evan and Ross becouse they are our best offensive players, no secret here. I think we need More good players not less, and we certainly have enough young players. I am certain Weltman will negotiate hard on Vucevic and Ross deals. Its not like we dont have other options, but you build success by expanding possibilities not decreasing them.
Bold Predictions:
1. Deandre Ayton biggest disappointment of 2018 draft.
2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
User avatar
fendilim
RealGM
Posts: 26,947
And1: 3,276
Joined: Jun 11, 2002
Location: 孫悟空, 时间太?!

Re: Why aren't we running the offense thru AG? 

Post#60 » by fendilim » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:30 am

basketballRob wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Guy who blocked people because he didn't agree with them , went missing whole year when Vučević was carrynig this team to playoffs, retuned when he started to struggle , calling up Evan and Vučević in every post , when nobody really argues that they struggle is calling himself objective? Returned as fake account just to pick fight me ? Dude, and you have guts to call yourself objective ? Holy Jesus :o :crazy: You have some issues man , that expand over basketball related forum.


I hope you take permanent vacation from forum now. Because you are easly one of most irrational posters out there ,filled with perosnal bias and agendas.
It's obvious now and I've been saying it all year that you can't feature Vuc and Fournier in our offense. Both players can be shutdown when the defense tightens up.

We saw early in the year when Donovan Mitchell had like 34 on Fournier and he was 1-12. Athletic players can completely shut him down.

Vuc had a long stretch where he couldn't hit a basket in crunch time and I think we lost like 5 in a row. Vuc must of been 0-20 in that stretch in the last 6 minutes.

I think we're better off developing Bamba who is more athletic.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

Vuc and Fournier have been options by default. They are the only guys who have decent percentages creating their own shot.

I agree that Gordon has outperformed both Vuc and Fournier in the playoffs, but this is also mostly by design of the Raptors defense. They focused on our main guys. Being the default option on the team, Vuc and Fournier would struggle. Vuc and Fornier are our best scorers on the team, they are no way elite offensive players, yet they are defended by elite defensive players, and the defense is built around stopping them. Well, especially Vuc who was defended by one of the best defensive centers in the league. And Fournier, the only one stopping is himself, who is having the worst career shooting percentage in his career.

It's a small sample size. But look at the difference in usage.

Image

Based on the top 6 players who got the most minutes this playoffs, Gordon was only the 4th in usage in game 1, which we won. And in Games 2-5, which we lost, he saw a 7% increase and was tied with Vuc at the top in usage %. (Isaac also saw a 7% increase in his usage the last 4 games.) The Raptors defense exploited the lack of offense of Gordon and Isaac and dared these 2 to beat us. Gordon also averaged more shots per game on Games 2-5.

Image


BTW, as bad as Fournier shot this season, his shot creation actually is almost the same as Gordon's percentages. Which is really ironic considering how Gordon is having the best season in his career, while Fournier is having his worst season of his career.

Image

So to answer the question, we ran the offense thru AG, thanks to Nick Nurse.
Image

Return to Orlando Magic