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What are your best Fournier trade proposals?

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Re: What are your best Fournier trade proposals? 

Post#141 » by zaymon » Thu May 9, 2019 11:00 am

Xatticus wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Xatticus wrote: That is some ridiculously bad math.

Spoiler:
The difference between .340 and .371 on Fournier's volume is 14 additional makes over the course of the entire season. That's a total of 42 extra points for the year or an additional half of a point per game. To give you some perspective on the insignificance of that, the value of a single possession is about 1.1 points.

Per game scoring is primarily a function of field goal attempts. Fournier could score an extra five points per game and it wouldn't actually mean he is any better. He could score five fewer points per game and it wouldn't actually mean he was any worse.

Fournier could easily reach that additional 5.2 points per game if we simply took 4.5 shots per game away from the rest of the team and gave them to Fournier. That would almost certainly do more harm than good though, as he was below the team average in efficiency metrics.


Personally, I see little point in giving a large share of offense to average offensive players that bring little else to the team. An Aaron Gordon shot is significantly more valuable than an Evan Fournier shot because it comes along with the defense and versatility that Gordon brings when he is on the floor.


You're correct, not sure how I did that but I totally botched that math.

But giving a player more shots and role in offense because of defense and versatility makes zero sense to me...are you saying that Tony Allen FGA's are more valuable than Ray Allen FGA's?
Spoiler:
Gordon is a career .534 TS% /.321 3P%
Fournier is a career .558 TS% / .371 3P%

• Points Per Touch

Gordon: (18-19) .297 PPT / (17-18) .294 PPT / (16-17) .329 PPT / (15-16) .243 PPT / (14-15) .231 PPT
Fournier: (18-19) .348 PPT / (17-18) .426 PPT / (16-17) .367 PPT / (15-16) .317 PPT / (14-15) .317 PPT

• Creation for others (AST%)

Gordon: (Career) 12.0 / (18-19) 16.6 / (17-18) 11.7 / (16-17) 10.5 / (15-16) 10.3 / (14-15) 6.3
Fournier: (Career) 14.2 / (18-19) 17.6 /(17-18) 14.8 / (16-17) 14.8 / (15-16) 12.8 / (14-15) 11.5

• Driving (18-19)

Gordon: 456 drives / 205 FGA at 42.9 FG% / 82 FTA at 70.7 FT% / 10.3 AST% with 10.3 TOV%
Fournier: 706 drives / 311 FGA at 47.6 FG% / 64 FTA at 78.1 FT% / 11.9 AST% with 6.4 TOV%

• Catch and Shoot (eFG%)

Gordon: (18-19) 51.4 / (17-18) 54.5 / (16-17) 46.0 / (15-16) 43.5 / (14-15) 34.3
Fournier: (18-19) 54.0 / (17-18) 58.6 / (16-17) 54.2 / (15-16) 59.4 / (14-15) 55.9


No… of course not. That would be a silly argument. That's using two players that bear absolutely no resemblance to one another at the offensive end in place of two players that had remarkably similar usage and efficiency metrics this past season. Nor would I make an argument that a PJ Tucker shot has more value than a James Harden shot. These are hyperbolic statements that attempt to distort the entire nature of the argument.

The statistics you provided are almost entirely inconsequential because they are either embedded into the efficiency metrics (which tell more) or they simply don't reflect the present. I could cite the disparity in dunks, but it would add nothing to the argument. Why would I care about points per touch?

The goal is to get as much value as you can out of your distribution of minutes and usage. It's negligent not to consider the totality of a player's production when trying to accomplish this task.

Your argument only makes sense whem you must decide which player to give more minutes. When they are both on the court your whole logic crumbles.
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Re: What are your best Fournier trade proposals? 

Post#142 » by Xatticus » Thu May 9, 2019 12:51 pm

zaymon wrote:
Xatticus wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
You're correct, not sure how I did that but I totally botched that math.

But giving a player more shots and role in offense because of defense and versatility makes zero sense to me...are you saying that Tony Allen FGA's are more valuable than Ray Allen FGA's?
Spoiler:
Gordon is a career .534 TS% /.321 3P%
Fournier is a career .558 TS% / .371 3P%

• Points Per Touch

Gordon: (18-19) .297 PPT / (17-18) .294 PPT / (16-17) .329 PPT / (15-16) .243 PPT / (14-15) .231 PPT
Fournier: (18-19) .348 PPT / (17-18) .426 PPT / (16-17) .367 PPT / (15-16) .317 PPT / (14-15) .317 PPT

• Creation for others (AST%)

Gordon: (Career) 12.0 / (18-19) 16.6 / (17-18) 11.7 / (16-17) 10.5 / (15-16) 10.3 / (14-15) 6.3
Fournier: (Career) 14.2 / (18-19) 17.6 /(17-18) 14.8 / (16-17) 14.8 / (15-16) 12.8 / (14-15) 11.5

• Driving (18-19)

Gordon: 456 drives / 205 FGA at 42.9 FG% / 82 FTA at 70.7 FT% / 10.3 AST% with 10.3 TOV%
Fournier: 706 drives / 311 FGA at 47.6 FG% / 64 FTA at 78.1 FT% / 11.9 AST% with 6.4 TOV%

• Catch and Shoot (eFG%)

Gordon: (18-19) 51.4 / (17-18) 54.5 / (16-17) 46.0 / (15-16) 43.5 / (14-15) 34.3
Fournier: (18-19) 54.0 / (17-18) 58.6 / (16-17) 54.2 / (15-16) 59.4 / (14-15) 55.9


No… of course not. That would be a silly argument. That's using two players that bear absolutely no resemblance to one another at the offensive end in place of two players that had remarkably similar usage and efficiency metrics this past season. Nor would I make an argument that a PJ Tucker shot has more value than a James Harden shot. These are hyperbolic statements that attempt to distort the entire nature of the argument.

The statistics you provided are almost entirely inconsequential because they are either embedded into the efficiency metrics (which tell more) or they simply don't reflect the present. I could cite the disparity in dunks, but it would add nothing to the argument. Why would I care about points per touch?

The goal is to get as much value as you can out of your distribution of minutes and usage. It's negligent not to consider the totality of a player's production when trying to accomplish this task.

Your argument only makes sense whem you must decide which player to give more minutes. When they are both on the court your whole logic crumbles.


And why would you make the base assumption that Fournier has to be on the court in a thread about Fournier trade proposals?
Perhaps your bias has left you a bit too sensitive to rationally broach this subject?
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Re: What are your best Fournier trade proposals? 

Post#143 » by zaymon » Thu May 9, 2019 3:33 pm

Xatticus wrote:
zaymon wrote:
Xatticus wrote:
No… of course not. That would be a silly argument. That's using two players that bear absolutely no resemblance to one another at the offensive end in place of two players that had remarkably similar usage and efficiency metrics this past season. Nor would I make an argument that a PJ Tucker shot has more value than a James Harden shot. These are hyperbolic statements that attempt to distort the entire nature of the argument.

The statistics you provided are almost entirely inconsequential because they are either embedded into the efficiency metrics (which tell more) or they simply don't reflect the present. I could cite the disparity in dunks, but it would add nothing to the argument. Why would I care about points per touch?

The goal is to get as much value as you can out of your distribution of minutes and usage. It's negligent not to consider the totality of a player's production when trying to accomplish this task.

Your argument only makes sense whem you must decide which player to give more minutes. When they are both on the court your whole logic crumbles.


And why would you make the base assumption that Fournier has to be on the court in a thread about Fournier trade proposals?
Perhaps your bias has left you a bit too sensitive to rationally broach this subject?


This is your qoute

Personally, I see little point in giving a large share of offense to average offensive players that bring little else to the team. An Aaron Gordon shot is significantly more valuable than an Evan Fournier shot because it comes along with the defense and versatility that Gordon brings when he is on the floor.


There is nothing here about trading Fournier. It was purely about share of offense when player is on the court (if he is not you cant give him any share). If he plays less minutes there is still possesions to share the ball. If he is not on the team you cant give him any share. Its nothing about Fournier i gave you other examples. I am very rational but you dont make any sense.
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Re: What are your best Fournier trade proposals? 

Post#144 » by ezzzp » Thu May 9, 2019 5:03 pm

Xatticus wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Xatticus wrote: Personally, I see little point in giving a large share of offense to average offensive players that bring little else to the team. An Aaron Gordon shot is significantly more valuable than an Evan Fournier shot because it comes along with the defense and versatility that Gordon brings when he is on the floor.


You're correct, not sure how I did that but I totally botched that math.

But giving a player more shots and role in offense because of defense and versatility makes zero sense to me...are you saying that Tony Allen FGA's are more valuable than Ray Allen FGA's?
[spoiler]Gordon is a career .534 TS% /.321 3P%
Fournier is a career .558 TS% / .371 3P%

• Points Per Touch

Gordon: (18-19) .297 PPT / (17-18) .294 PPT / (16-17) .329 PPT / (15-16) .243 PPT / (14-15) .231 PPT
Fournier: (18-19) .348 PPT / (17-18) .426 PPT / (16-17) .367 PPT / (15-16) .317 PPT / (14-15) .317 PPT

• Creation for others (AST%)

Gordon: (Career) 12.0 / (18-19) 16.6 / (17-18) 11.7 / (16-17) 10.5 / (15-16) 10.3 / (14-15) 6.3
Fournier: (Career) 14.2 / (18-19) 17.6 /(17-18) 14.8 / (16-17) 14.8 / (15-16) 12.8 / (14-15) 11.5

• Driving (18-19)

Gordon: 456 drives / 205 FGA at 42.9 FG% / 82 FTA at 70.7 FT% / 10.3 AST% with 10.3 TOV%
Fournier: 706 drives / 311 FGA at 47.6 FG% / 64 FTA at 78.1 FT% / 11.9 AST% with 6.4 TOV%

• Catch and Shoot (eFG%)

Gordon: (18-19) 51.4 / (17-18) 54.5 / (16-17) 46.0 / (15-16) 43.5 / (14-15) 34.3
Fournier: (18-19) 54.0 / (17-18) 58.6 / (16-17) 54.2 / (15-16) 59.4 / (14-15) 55.9


No… of course not. That would be a silly argument. That's using two players that bear absolutely no resemblance to one another at the offensive end in place of two players that had remarkably similar usage and efficiency metrics this past season. Nor would I make an argument that a PJ Tucker shot has more value than a James Harden shot. These are hyperbolic statements that attempt to distort the entire nature of the argument.

The statistics you provided are almost entirely inconsequential because they are either embedded into the efficiency metrics (which tell more) or they simply don't reflect the present. I could cite the disparity in dunks, but it would add nothing to the argument. Why would I care about points per touch?

The goal is to get as much value as you can out of your distribution of minutes and usage. It's negligent not to consider the totality of a player's production when trying to accomplish this task.


Its as hyperbolic as your totally biased statement.

Gordon is not an elite defender, maybe someday he'll get there, but right now he's merely above average on some nights and inconsistent throughout the game. His bbIQ is nowhere near were it should be at year 5. He's still getting lost on switches, regularly misses his rotations (especially on PnR's) and regularly misses his box out assignment. Fournier might not be as physically gifted, but he's rarely in the wrong spot and he plays hard on that end. Clifford has praised Fournier's defensive grit and defensive bbIQ and trusted him every night on the best guard. The disparity is nowhere near what your hyperbolic and biased opinion stated.

Putting the ball in the hands of the player who is most effective with the ball in his hands (Points Per Touch + TS% + AST%) absolutely matters. That you don't care about PPT reveals a lot.

Funny that you bring up dunks, but conveniently ignore that a FORWARD who takes more shots at the rim has a lower TS% than guard and been low TS% entire career. Not only that, but at the rim (0-3') Fournier actually shot similar to Gordon (.668 vs .671 FG%)...dunks don't mean crap, efficiency does.
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Re: What are your best Fournier trade proposals? 

Post#145 » by Xatticus » Fri May 10, 2019 12:09 am

ezzzp wrote:
Xatticus wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
You're correct, not sure how I did that but I totally botched that math.

But giving a player more shots and role in offense because of defense and versatility makes zero sense to me...are you saying that Tony Allen FGA's are more valuable than Ray Allen FGA's?
[spoiler]Gordon is a career .534 TS% /.321 3P%
Fournier is a career .558 TS% / .371 3P%

• Points Per Touch

Gordon: (18-19) .297 PPT / (17-18) .294 PPT / (16-17) .329 PPT / (15-16) .243 PPT / (14-15) .231 PPT
Fournier: (18-19) .348 PPT / (17-18) .426 PPT / (16-17) .367 PPT / (15-16) .317 PPT / (14-15) .317 PPT

• Creation for others (AST%)

Gordon: (Career) 12.0 / (18-19) 16.6 / (17-18) 11.7 / (16-17) 10.5 / (15-16) 10.3 / (14-15) 6.3
Fournier: (Career) 14.2 / (18-19) 17.6 /(17-18) 14.8 / (16-17) 14.8 / (15-16) 12.8 / (14-15) 11.5

• Driving (18-19)

Gordon: 456 drives / 205 FGA at 42.9 FG% / 82 FTA at 70.7 FT% / 10.3 AST% with 10.3 TOV%
Fournier: 706 drives / 311 FGA at 47.6 FG% / 64 FTA at 78.1 FT% / 11.9 AST% with 6.4 TOV%

• Catch and Shoot (eFG%)

Gordon: (18-19) 51.4 / (17-18) 54.5 / (16-17) 46.0 / (15-16) 43.5 / (14-15) 34.3
Fournier: (18-19) 54.0 / (17-18) 58.6 / (16-17) 54.2 / (15-16) 59.4 / (14-15) 55.9


No… of course not. That would be a silly argument. That's using two players that bear absolutely no resemblance to one another at the offensive end in place of two players that had remarkably similar usage and efficiency metrics this past season. Nor would I make an argument that a PJ Tucker shot has more value than a James Harden shot. These are hyperbolic statements that attempt to distort the entire nature of the argument.

The statistics you provided are almost entirely inconsequential because they are either embedded into the efficiency metrics (which tell more) or they simply don't reflect the present. I could cite the disparity in dunks, but it would add nothing to the argument. Why would I care about points per touch?

The goal is to get as much value as you can out of your distribution of minutes and usage. It's negligent not to consider the totality of a player's production when trying to accomplish this task.


Its as hyperbolic as your totally biased statement.

Gordon is not an elite defender, maybe someday he'll get there, but right now he's merely above average on some nights and inconsistent throughout the game. His bbIQ is nowhere near were it should be at year 5. He's still getting lost on switches, regularly misses his rotations (especially on PnR's) and regularly misses his box out assignment. Fournier might not be as physically gifted, but he's rarely in the wrong spot and he plays hard on that end. Clifford has praised Fournier's defensive grit and defensive bbIQ and trusted him every night on the best guard. The disparity is nowhere near what your hyperbolic and biased opinion stated.

Putting the ball in the hands of the player who is most effective with the ball in his hands (Points Per Touch + TS% + AST%) absolutely matters. That you don't care about PPT reveals a lot.

Funny that you bring up dunks, but conveniently ignore that a FORWARD who takes more shots at the rim has a lower TS% than guard and been low TS% entire career. Not only that, but at the rim (0-3') Fournier actually shot similar to Gordon (.668 vs .671 FG%)...dunks don't mean crap, efficiency does.


You crack me up. It's really obvious when you don't understand the meaning of a word because you just throw it right back in the other direction.

I'm fairly certain that I've never stated that Gordon's defense is elite, though that's not really a requisite for it to be demonstrably better than Fournier's. Since you brought it up though... Aaron Gordon was really good at the defensive end this year, though I suppose my opinion is no match for your cold hard imagination. I've noticed a distinct lack of statistics in your posts when you talk up Fournier's defensive contributions. I know. They're ugly. But you can take some solace from the fact that defense is rather difficult to quantify. Besides, who needs statistics when you've got grit and trust?

I'm pretty sure I was the one talking about efficiency and you were the one throwing out crap like points per touch and total drives (you might want to revisit the back and forth to determine where you got confused). There are different ways to get there, but what ultimately matters is the team's efficiency and this team was 22nd in the league in offensive efficiency. It's rather difficult to argue that we are putting the ball in the hands of the player that is most effective with the ball in their hands when said player was below the team average in shooting efficiency and pretty dreadful as a pick-and-roll initiator.
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Re: What are your best Fournier trade proposals? 

Post#146 » by Bensational » Fri May 10, 2019 2:56 am

With Vuc's cap hold, and letting Ross walk, we have $10M cap space. IF he signs an offer that's too rich for us, and we let Ross walk, we'd have $17M cap space.

Maybe we can use that with Fournier for an upgrade?

______________________________________________________________________________

Fournier + $8M trade exception = Gordon Hayward + (Future FRP, or SAC/LAC pick from this draft)

Mozgov + $9M trade exception + (BOS Future FRP, or SAC/LAC pick from this draft) + ORL SRPs = Conley

Using MLE, sign Birch/Dedmon to cheap 3 year deals (team option after 2)

Draft NAW

(Birch/Dedmon)/Bamba
Gordon/
Isaac/Iwundu
Hayward/NAW
Conley/Fultz

Conley and Hayward keep us competitive over the next 2 seasons, then their combined $60M comes off the books, and we have the room to add a MAX FA to a matured core of Bamba/Gordon/Isaac/NAW/Fultz.
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Re: What are your best Fournier trade proposals? 

Post#147 » by ezzzp » Fri May 10, 2019 3:21 am

Xatticus wrote:You crack me up. It's really obvious when you don't understand the meaning of a word because you just throw it right back in the other direction.

I'm fairly certain that I've never stated that Gordon's defense is elite, though that's not really a requisite for it to be demonstrably better than Fournier's. Since you brought it up though... Aaron Gordon was really good at the defensive end this year, though I suppose my opinion is no match for your cold hard imagination. I've noticed a distinct lack of statistics in your posts when you talk up Fournier's defensive contributions. I know. They're ugly. But you can take some solace from the fact that defense is rather difficult to quantify. Besides, who needs statistics when you've got grit and trust?

I'm pretty sure I was the one talking about efficiency and you were the one throwing out crap like points per touch and total drives (you might want to revisit the back and forth to determine where you got confused). There are different ways to get there, but what ultimately matters is the team's efficiency and this team was 22nd in the league in offensive efficiency. It's rather difficult to argue that we are putting the ball in the hands of the player that is most effective with the ball in their hands when said player was below the team average in shooting efficiency and pretty dreadful as a pick-and-roll initiator.


What cracks me up is how you have to resort to pompous personal attacks every time your opinions get challenged…a crystal clear sign of intellectual insecurity.

You said his defense and versatility made his FGA’s more valuable than Fournier’s :lol:. Are you now saying that doesn't insinuate that his defense is so good and so much better than Fournier's that it makes his totally inefficient offense more valuable than Fournier's?

I suppose you think Steve Clifford’s regular praise of Fournier’s defense is no match for your biased opinions. “Grit and trust” are words used by Clifford when talking about Fournier's defense…but maybe you’re the only one that knows the true meaning of those words too…LMAO.

I rarely post individual defensive statistics - except for lineups and overall team metrics. You can get some insight from individual stats like tracking DFG% and IMPACT but I don’t fully trust them. Plus I’m sure if I used them, you would just attack the stat credibility, just like you do every time that any stat doesn’t confirm your biased narrative.

You were NOT the one talking about efficiency. You literally tried to say that the comparison stats I posted are inconsequential. Its right above, just look up: FYI TS% and Points Per Touch ARE efficiency stats…Drives and AST% demonstrate depth of role played in system and the % of effectiveness in that role. You are the one that is confused.
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Re: What are your best Fournier trade proposals? 

Post#148 » by Bensational » Fri May 10, 2019 8:31 am

Bensational wrote:With Vuc's cap hold, and letting Ross walk, we have $10M cap space. IF he signs an offer that's too rich for us, and we let Ross walk, we'd have $17M cap space.

Maybe we can use that with Fournier for an upgrade?

______________________________________________________________________________

Fournier + $8M trade exception = Gordon Hayward + (Future FRP, or SAC/LAC pick from this draft)

Mozgov + $9M trade exception + (BOS Future FRP, or SAC/LAC pick from this draft) + ORL SRPs = Conley

Using MLE, sign Birch/Dedmon to cheap 3 year deals (team option after 2)

Draft NAW

(Birch/Dedmon)/Bamba
Gordon/
Isaac/Iwundu
Hayward/NAW
Conley/Fultz

Conley and Hayward keep us competitive over the next 2 seasons, then their combined $60M comes off the books, and we have the room to add a MAX FA to a matured core of Bamba/Gordon/Isaac/NAW/Fultz.


Giving up all cap flexibility for the next 2 seasons, we could do something similar whilst keeping Vuc.

Mozgov + $10M TPE + #16 = Conley

Fournier + DJ + Frazier = Hayward

Resign Vuc

MLE sign Danny Green or veteran shooter

Vucevic/Bamba
Gordon?
Isaac/Iwundu
Hayward/MLE
Conley/Fultz

That team should compete for a top 4 seed for the next 2 seasons whilst Conley and Hayward's deals run up. Then we retool and build around the youth.

But this is the antithesis of WeHam wanting smart contracts. Lol. So would never happen.
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Re: What are your best Fournier trade proposals? 

Post#149 » by pepe1991 » Fri May 10, 2019 10:19 am

Hayward's lenght of contract isn't THAT terrible. 2 more years ,with one of them being player's option ( 2020-2021) but he'll probably pick that sweet $34M up.

I proposed trade for him last year, you get your SF, for better or worst . He looks great on some nights, looks like hobbled WW1 vet in others. I assume he'll probably improve a bit over time because mental aspect of his injury is much worst than physical at this point.
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Re: What are your best Fournier trade proposals? 

Post#150 » by Xatticus » Fri May 10, 2019 11:32 am

ezzzp wrote:
Xatticus wrote:You crack me up. It's really obvious when you don't understand the meaning of a word because you just throw it right back in the other direction.

I'm fairly certain that I've never stated that Gordon's defense is elite, though that's not really a requisite for it to be demonstrably better than Fournier's. Since you brought it up though... Aaron Gordon was really good at the defensive end this year, though I suppose my opinion is no match for your cold hard imagination. I've noticed a distinct lack of statistics in your posts when you talk up Fournier's defensive contributions. I know. They're ugly. But you can take some solace from the fact that defense is rather difficult to quantify. Besides, who needs statistics when you've got grit and trust?

I'm pretty sure I was the one talking about efficiency and you were the one throwing out crap like points per touch and total drives (you might want to revisit the back and forth to determine where you got confused). There are different ways to get there, but what ultimately matters is the team's efficiency and this team was 22nd in the league in offensive efficiency. It's rather difficult to argue that we are putting the ball in the hands of the player that is most effective with the ball in their hands when said player was below the team average in shooting efficiency and pretty dreadful as a pick-and-roll initiator.


What cracks me up is how you have to resort to pompous personal attacks every time your opinions get challenged…a crystal clear sign of intellectual insecurity.

You said his defense and versatility made his FGA’s more valuable than Fournier’s :lol:. Are you now saying that doesn't insinuate that his defense is so good and so much better than Fournier's that it makes his totally inefficient offense more valuable than Fournier's?

I suppose you think Steve Clifford’s regular praise of Fournier’s defense is no match for your biased opinions. “Grit and trust” are words used by Clifford when talking about Fournier's defense…but maybe you’re the only one that knows the true meaning of those words too…LMAO.

I rarely post individual defensive statistics - except for lineups and overall team metrics. You can get some insight from individual stats like tracking DFG% and IMPACT but I don’t fully trust them. Plus I’m sure if I used them, you would just attack the stat credibility, just like you do every time that any stat doesn’t confirm your biased narrative.

You were NOT the one talking about efficiency. You literally tried to say that the comparison stats I posted are inconsequential. Its right above, just look up: FYI TS% and Points Per Touch ARE efficiency stats…Drives and AST% demonstrate depth of role played in system and the % of effectiveness in that role. You are the one that is confused.


I know you are but what am I?

It's what little kids do. Are you a little kid? I suppose that might explain your crush on Fournier.

Fournier is a bad defender. He struggles to contest shots because he is too slow to close distance and because he rarely leaves his feet at the defensive end. He is reluctant to switch (for obvious reasons); even in obvious switching situations. He gets overpowered by almost anyone of comparable size because he is incredibly weak for an NBA player. He is essentially useless as a help defender because he can't make plays or alter shots, so he generally just sticks to his guy out on the perimeter. His block and rebound rates are microscopic for someone that is 6'7". He is decent at keeping himself between his man and the basket and he is good at jumping passing lanes. Those are literally his only assets at the defensive end.

Yes. Gordon's defense and versatility are dramatically superior to Fournier's. That doesn't mean Gordon is elite. Gordon is really good at defending his man and he can switch onto almost anyone. He is good in the post as well. He doesn't provide a lot of help defense though.

Our most talented defender, by a wide margin, is Jonathan Isaac. He is capable of covering his man and taping over the cracks created by others' deficiencies. Those deficiencies are almost never the result of Gordon. Isaac is exceptional at contesting shots. He makes plays at the point of attack. He draws charges. He jumps passing lanes. He rotates and protects the rim. He can switch onto anyone but physical bigs.

TS% and eFG% are efficiency metrics. They tell you how efficient someone is with their field goal attempts. AST%, points per touch, and drives are frequency statistics. They tell you how often something occurs. They mean very little without context. Enroll in STAT101 or buy a book and teach yourself.
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Re: What are your best Fournier trade proposals? 

Post#151 » by Xatticus » Fri May 10, 2019 11:42 am

Bensational wrote:
Bensational wrote:With Vuc's cap hold, and letting Ross walk, we have $10M cap space. IF he signs an offer that's too rich for us, and we let Ross walk, we'd have $17M cap space.

Maybe we can use that with Fournier for an upgrade?

______________________________________________________________________________

Fournier + $8M trade exception = Gordon Hayward + (Future FRP, or SAC/LAC pick from this draft)

Mozgov + $9M trade exception + (BOS Future FRP, or SAC/LAC pick from this draft) + ORL SRPs = Conley

Using MLE, sign Birch/Dedmon to cheap 3 year deals (team option after 2)

Draft NAW

(Birch/Dedmon)/Bamba
Gordon/
Isaac/Iwundu
Hayward/NAW
Conley/Fultz

Conley and Hayward keep us competitive over the next 2 seasons, then their combined $60M comes off the books, and we have the room to add a MAX FA to a matured core of Bamba/Gordon/Isaac/NAW/Fultz.


Giving up all cap flexibility for the next 2 seasons, we could do something similar whilst keeping Vuc.

Mozgov + $10M TPE + #16 = Conley

Fournier + DJ + Frazier = Hayward

Resign Vuc

MLE sign Danny Green or veteran shooter

Vucevic/Bamba
Gordon?
Isaac/Iwundu
Hayward/MLE
Conley/Fultz

That team should compete for a top 4 seed for the next 2 seasons whilst Conley and Hayward's deals run up. Then we retool and build around the youth.

But this is the antithesis of WeHam wanting smart contracts. Lol. So would never happen.


I wouldn't give up that pick to get Conley. I wouldn't have a huge issue with taking on Conley's salary though. If we re-sign Vucevic, we won't have any money to spend for the next couple years. I just don't think we are at a point where consolidating youth for a two-year window really makes sense. Our potential window is wide open right now and we need to keep that in mind. Ignoring Oladipo, how different would we look right now had we not given up Sabonis for Ibaka?

I'd have little issue with the second deal. It would free up a couple roster spots, which would be nice.
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Re: What are your best Fournier trade proposals? 

Post#152 » by j-ragg » Fri May 10, 2019 2:46 pm

Bensational wrote:
Bensational wrote:With Vuc's cap hold, and letting Ross walk, we have $10M cap space. IF he signs an offer that's too rich for us, and we let Ross walk, we'd have $17M cap space.

Maybe we can use that with Fournier for an upgrade?

______________________________________________________________________________

Fournier + $8M trade exception = Gordon Hayward + (Future FRP, or SAC/LAC pick from this draft)

Mozgov + $9M trade exception + (BOS Future FRP, or SAC/LAC pick from this draft) + ORL SRPs = Conley

Using MLE, sign Birch/Dedmon to cheap 3 year deals (team option after 2)

Draft NAW

(Birch/Dedmon)/Bamba
Gordon/
Isaac/Iwundu
Hayward/NAW
Conley/Fultz

Conley and Hayward keep us competitive over the next 2 seasons, then their combined $60M comes off the books, and we have the room to add a MAX FA to a matured core of Bamba/Gordon/Isaac/NAW/Fultz.


Giving up all cap flexibility for the next 2 seasons, we could do something similar whilst keeping Vuc.

Mozgov + $10M TPE + #16 = Conley

Fournier + DJ + Frazier = Hayward

Resign Vuc

MLE sign Danny Green or veteran shooter

Vucevic/Bamba
Gordon?
Isaac/Iwundu
Hayward/MLE
Conley/Fultz

That team should compete for a top 4 seed for the next 2 seasons whilst Conley and Hayward's deals run up. Then we retool and build around the youth.

But this is the antithesis of WeHam wanting smart contracts. Lol. So would never happen.

Nice ideas. Not a fan of Hayward (he looks slower off the dribble than Mario) especially at the 2 but I think his game might turn into a Gallinari type. Good floor spacer who can get to the line every now and then playing either forward spot.

I go back and forth on acquiring a guy like Conley. I get the rationale that it’s sort of accelerating our “rebuild”, if we can call it that. But at the same time, every time DJ or Evan dribble with their head down while someone is cutting I die a little bit. So I’d ultimately rather get an upgrade at the guard spot.

I keep throwing the same names around for a wing but how available do you think Jaylen Brown, Caris Levert, Bogdan, or Ingram could be? Would be nice to get a young guy who could possibly grow into a bigger role (2000 TMac best case scenario).
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Re: What are your best Fournier trade proposals? 

Post#153 » by MagicStarwipe » Fri May 10, 2019 5:01 pm

j-ragg wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Bensational wrote:With Vuc's cap hold, and letting Ross walk, we have $10M cap space. IF he signs an offer that's too rich for us, and we let Ross walk, we'd have $17M cap space.

Maybe we can use that with Fournier for an upgrade?

______________________________________________________________________________

Fournier + $8M trade exception = Gordon Hayward + (Future FRP, or SAC/LAC pick from this draft)

Mozgov + $9M trade exception + (BOS Future FRP, or SAC/LAC pick from this draft) + ORL SRPs = Conley

Using MLE, sign Birch/Dedmon to cheap 3 year deals (team option after 2)

Draft NAW

(Birch/Dedmon)/Bamba
Gordon/
Isaac/Iwundu
Hayward/NAW
Conley/Fultz

Conley and Hayward keep us competitive over the next 2 seasons, then their combined $60M comes off the books, and we have the room to add a MAX FA to a matured core of Bamba/Gordon/Isaac/NAW/Fultz.


Giving up all cap flexibility for the next 2 seasons, we could do something similar whilst keeping Vuc.

Mozgov + $10M TPE + #16 = Conley

Fournier + DJ + Frazier = Hayward

Resign Vuc

MLE sign Danny Green or veteran shooter

Vucevic/Bamba
Gordon?
Isaac/Iwundu
Hayward/MLE
Conley/Fultz

That team should compete for a top 4 seed for the next 2 seasons whilst Conley and Hayward's deals run up. Then we retool and build around the youth.

But this is the antithesis of WeHam wanting smart contracts. Lol. So would never happen.

Nice ideas. Not a fan of Hayward (he looks slower off the dribble than Mario) especially at the 2 but I think his game might turn into a Gallinari type. Good floor spacer who can get to the line every now and then playing either forward spot.

I go back and forth on acquiring a guy like Conley. I get the rationale that it’s sort of accelerating our “rebuild”, if we can call it that. But at the same time, every time DJ or Evan dribble with their head down while someone is cutting I die a little bit. So I’d ultimately rather get an upgrade at the guard spot.

I keep throwing the same names around for a wing but how available do you think Jaylen Brown, Caris Levert, Bogdan, or Ingram could be? Would be nice to get a young guy who could possibly grow into a bigger role (2000 TMac best case scenario).


Wash your mouth out with soap! Don't you know Evan is top 10 amongst SG's in assists?!

8-)
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Re: What are your best Fournier trade proposals? 

Post#154 » by Bensational » Fri May 10, 2019 5:04 pm

j-ragg wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Bensational wrote:With Vuc's cap hold, and letting Ross walk, we have $10M cap space. IF he signs an offer that's too rich for us, and we let Ross walk, we'd have $17M cap space.

Maybe we can use that with Fournier for an upgrade?

______________________________________________________________________________

Fournier + $8M trade exception = Gordon Hayward + (Future FRP, or SAC/LAC pick from this draft)

Mozgov + $9M trade exception + (BOS Future FRP, or SAC/LAC pick from this draft) + ORL SRPs = Conley

Using MLE, sign Birch/Dedmon to cheap 3 year deals (team option after 2)

Draft NAW

(Birch/Dedmon)/Bamba
Gordon/
Isaac/Iwundu
Hayward/NAW
Conley/Fultz

Conley and Hayward keep us competitive over the next 2 seasons, then their combined $60M comes off the books, and we have the room to add a MAX FA to a matured core of Bamba/Gordon/Isaac/NAW/Fultz.


Giving up all cap flexibility for the next 2 seasons, we could do something similar whilst keeping Vuc.

Mozgov + $10M TPE + #16 = Conley

Fournier + DJ + Frazier = Hayward

Resign Vuc

MLE sign Danny Green or veteran shooter

Vucevic/Bamba
Gordon?
Isaac/Iwundu
Hayward/MLE
Conley/Fultz

That team should compete for a top 4 seed for the next 2 seasons whilst Conley and Hayward's deals run up. Then we retool and build around the youth.

But this is the antithesis of WeHam wanting smart contracts. Lol. So would never happen.

Nice ideas. Not a fan of Hayward (he looks slower off the dribble than Mario) especially at the 2 but I think his game might turn into a Gallinari type. Good floor spacer who can get to the line every now and then playing either forward spot.

I go back and forth on acquiring a guy like Conley. I get the rationale that it’s sort of accelerating our “rebuild”, if we can call it that. But at the same time, every time DJ or Evan dribble with their head down while someone is cutting I die a little bit. So I’d ultimately rather get an upgrade at the guard spot.

I keep throwing the same names around for a wing but how available do you think Jaylen Brown, Caris Levert, Bogdan, or Ingram could be? Would be nice to get a young guy who could possibly grow into a bigger role (2000 TMac best case scenario).


I'm a big fan of Brown. I don't think he's a superstar, but he's good. Him, Ingram or Levert likely cost us one of Bamba, Isaac or Gordon, so I don't really see that happening.

Bogdan though - who knows what Sac want to do with him. He could give us Fournier type impact but for half the price. Only for a season though, then he's a FA.
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Re: What are your best Fournier trade proposals? 

Post#155 » by ezzzp » Fri May 10, 2019 5:42 pm

Xatticus wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Xatticus wrote:You crack me up. It's really obvious when you don't understand the meaning of a word because you just throw it right back in the other direction.

I'm fairly certain that I've never stated that Gordon's defense is elite, though that's not really a requisite for it to be demonstrably better than Fournier's. Since you brought it up though... Aaron Gordon was really good at the defensive end this year, though I suppose my opinion is no match for your cold hard imagination. I've noticed a distinct lack of statistics in your posts when you talk up Fournier's defensive contributions. I know. They're ugly. But you can take some solace from the fact that defense is rather difficult to quantify. Besides, who needs statistics when you've got grit and trust?

I'm pretty sure I was the one talking about efficiency and you were the one throwing out crap like points per touch and total drives (you might want to revisit the back and forth to determine where you got confused). There are different ways to get there, but what ultimately matters is the team's efficiency and this team was 22nd in the league in offensive efficiency. It's rather difficult to argue that we are putting the ball in the hands of the player that is most effective with the ball in their hands when said player was below the team average in shooting efficiency and pretty dreadful as a pick-and-roll initiator.


What cracks me up is how you have to resort to pompous personal attacks every time your opinions get challenged…a crystal clear sign of intellectual insecurity.

You said his defense and versatility made his FGA’s more valuable than Fournier’s :lol:. Are you now saying that doesn't insinuate that his defense is so good and so much better than Fournier's that it makes his totally inefficient offense more valuable than Fournier's?

I suppose you think Steve Clifford’s regular praise of Fournier’s defense is no match for your biased opinions. “Grit and trust” are words used by Clifford when talking about Fournier's defense…but maybe you’re the only one that knows the true meaning of those words too…LMAO.

I rarely post individual defensive statistics - except for lineups and overall team metrics. You can get some insight from individual stats like tracking DFG% and IMPACT but I don’t fully trust them. Plus I’m sure if I used them, you would just attack the stat credibility, just like you do every time that any stat doesn’t confirm your biased narrative.

You were NOT the one talking about efficiency. You literally tried to say that the comparison stats I posted are inconsequential. Its right above, just look up: FYI TS% and Points Per Touch ARE efficiency stats…Drives and AST% demonstrate depth of role played in system and the % of effectiveness in that role. You are the one that is confused.


I know you are but what am I?

It's what little kids do. Are you a little kid? I suppose that might explain your crush on Fournier.

Fournier is a bad defender. He struggles to contest shots because he is too slow to close distance and because he rarely leaves his feet at the defensive end. He is reluctant to switch (for obvious reasons); even in obvious switching situations. He gets overpowered by almost anyone of comparable size because he is incredibly weak for an NBA player. He is essentially useless as a help defender because he can't make plays or alter shots, so he generally just sticks to his guy out on the perimeter. His block and rebound rates are microscopic for someone that is 6'7". He is decent at keeping himself between his man and the basket and he is good at jumping passing lanes. Those are literally his only assets at the defensive end.

Yes. Gordon's defense and versatility are dramatically superior to Fournier's. That doesn't mean Gordon is elite. Gordon is really good at defending his man and he can switch onto almost anyone. He is good in the post as well. He doesn't provide a lot of help defense though.

Our most talented defender, by a wide margin, is Jonathan Isaac. He is capable of covering his man and taping over the cracks created by others' deficiencies. Those deficiencies are almost never the result of Gordon. Isaac is exceptional at contesting shots. He makes plays at the point of attack. He draws charges. He jumps passing lanes. He rotates and protects the rim. He can switch onto anyone but physical bigs.

TS% and eFG% are efficiency metrics. They tell you how efficient someone is with their field goal attempts. AST%, points per touch, and drives are frequency statistics. They tell you how often something occurs. They mean very little without context. Enroll in STAT101 or buy a book and teach yourself.


Well its obvious you are a bitter old man with antiquated opinions, so I imagine everyone looks young to you. That's why you're still bitter that Fournier has been proving you wrong since back in 2015 when you used to make the same bad arguments about Hezonja over Fournier.

Fournier is not a bad defender. He's limited athletically, but he's a smart team defender and pretty decent on ball. Plus he's got good length for a guard. Scott Skiles, Frank Vogel AND NOW Steve Clifford have ALL said that and proved it by playing him big minutes and trusted him on the floor in end of game situations to defend his guy. You NEVER saw any of them pull him for defensive situations, in fact they've all inserted him into those situations.

Uh no duh Isaac is the Magic's best defender. What does that have to do with Gordon or Fournier. That's basic knowledge for Magic fans. But maybe you should pay attention because that's what an emerging elite defender looks like...that's not what Gordon looks like on year 5. Now stop trying to fog the discussion to hide how laughably bad your hot take was.

LMAO, context is there - plus Driving, AST% and PPT are way more than frequency stats and PPT is efficiency...adding color to the text doesn't change that. You obviously failed STAT 101, just like you failed NBA Basics. Time for you to go back and retake those classes....and while you are at it retake B*** S*** 101 because your attempts to deflect attention away from your poorly informed hot takes are also failing.
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Re: What are your best Fournier trade proposals? 

Post#156 » by Skin » Fri May 10, 2019 6:31 pm

Bensational wrote:With Vuc's cap hold, and letting Ross walk, we have $10M cap space. IF he signs an offer that's too rich for us, and we let Ross walk, we'd have $17M cap space.

Maybe we can use that with Fournier for an upgrade?

______________________________________________________________________________

Fournier + $8M trade exception = Gordon Hayward + (Future FRP, or SAC/LAC pick from this draft)

Mozgov + $9M trade exception + (BOS Future FRP, or SAC/LAC pick from this draft) + ORL SRPs = Conley

Using MLE, sign Birch/Dedmon to cheap 3 year deals (team option after 2)

Draft NAW

(Birch/Dedmon)/Bamba
Gordon/
Isaac/Iwundu
Hayward/NAW
Conley/Fultz

Conley and Hayward keep us competitive over the next 2 seasons, then their combined $60M comes off the books, and we have the room to add a MAX FA to a matured core of Bamba/Gordon/Isaac/NAW/Fultz.

Interesting use of trade exceptions. I don't think they are actually coveted... moreso teams get it to complete the current transaction.

Anyways, I want to give Fultz the pathway to fulfilling his potential and I don't think bringing in Conley would allow him to get there. Augustin is a good enough vet behind him for some stability, and drafting a guy like Jalen Lecque (one of my pet cats) in Round 2 to develop would be smart as well. If Fultz doesn't show enough next season, then at least Lecque would have 1 NBA season under his belt going into Fultz's 3rd year with us.

Hayward is interesting because Celtics fans are fed up with him, like we are fed up with Fournier, but I don't think he fits the mold of a WeHam player. I don't think BOS wants Fournier either.

If we let Vuc go, I would chase Oubre... ya'll know that already. :wink:
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Re: What are your best Fournier trade proposals? 

Post#157 » by ezzzp » Fri May 10, 2019 8:43 pm

Bensational wrote: Conley and Hayward keep us competitive over the next 2 seasons


I'm on board with acquiring Conley, but Hayward I'm not thrilled about.

With Conley + Fultz (hopefully), the Magic would be less reliant on upgrading Fournier as both PG's are ball dominant. Fournier would be playing off-ball and in more of a catch/shoot role. Since 2013 when tracking began to measure Catch and Shoot, Fournier has shot those 3PTers at .388 3P%:

Spoiler:
(18-19) 108-294 .367
(17-18) 98-243 .403
(16-17) 94-254 .370
(15-16) 122-297 .411
(14-15) 61-158 .386
(13-14) 75-191 .393


I would do something like this...

• Trade: Mike Conley = Augustin + Frazier + Mozgov + 2019 1st (16) + 2019 2nd (46) + 2020 2nd + cash

• In Conley scenario, re-sign Vucevic to a 4 yr/$90m deal with 8% annual raises starting at $20m

• In Conley scenario, re-sign Ross to a 4 yr/$50m ($12.5m per) flat contract

• In Conley scenario, re-sign MCW to a 2 year Vet Min ($2.2m) - 2nd yr team option.

PG: Conley (32.5) | Fultz (9.8) | Carter-Williams (2.2)
SG: Fournier (17.0)| Ross (12.5) | X
SF: Gordon (19.9)| Iwundu (1.6) | X
PF: Isaac (5.8)| X
C: Vucevic (20.0)| Bamba (5.7)


The Magic would have approximately $127.0m with 10 roster spots filled. Giving the Magic less than $4.0m to fill the final 3 roster spots without exceeding the $131m luxury tax line.

Because the Magic would be over the salary cap, their options to fill out the final 3 roster spots would be resigning their own Bird Right free agents or using their available exceptions: Non Tax MLE ($9.1m) / BAE ($3.6m) / Vet ($2.2m) / Min ($0.9m)
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Re: What are your best Fournier trade proposals? 

Post#158 » by Def Swami » Fri May 10, 2019 10:31 pm

I wonder if the Magic could make that same trade for Jrue Holiday instead of Mike Conley. Holiday being 3 years younger may play better into the Magic's timeline.
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Re: What are your best Fournier trade proposals? 

Post#159 » by Catledge » Fri May 10, 2019 10:50 pm

Def Swami wrote:I wonder if the Magic could make that same trade for Jrue Holiday instead of Mike Conley. Holiday being 3 years younger may play better into the Magic's timeline.


I would love to have Holiday. I think he would be a perfect vet for this team.

I'm wondering who would give up more than #16 + cap relief for Holiday. I think the Lakers would be the most likely to offer more, but they might have their sights set higher.

I'm also wondering who would give up more than just straight cap relief for Conley (without the pick). I can't think of very many teams that both need a pg and would be willing to take on a giant contract.
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Re: What are your best Fournier trade proposals? 

Post#160 » by Bensational » Sat May 11, 2019 1:23 am

Catledge wrote:
Def Swami wrote:I wonder if the Magic could make that same trade for Jrue Holiday instead of Mike Conley. Holiday being 3 years younger may play better into the Magic's timeline.


I would love to have Holiday. I think he would be a perfect vet for this team.

I'm wondering who would give up more than #16 + cap relief for Holiday. I think the Lakers would be the most likely to offer more, but they might have their sights set higher.

I'm also wondering who would give up more than just straight cap relief for Conley (without the pick). I can't think of very many teams that both need a pg and would be willing to take on a giant contract.


For JRue, I think he becomes a piece that a bunch of teams could value. Ie,

Hawks might want a veteran presence in the team to help signify to FAs that they're ready to compete. They've got 2 lottery picks, so one of those for JRue would be a steal.

If Boston don't get AD, they might want JRue. They've got plenty of picks and young players to shop.

Chicago might give up some youth and a pick to partner JRue with LaVine, Porter and Markkanen.

Denver might want to do a Harris + Morris + Porter swap? Get them more consistent backcourt help.

If the Clippers don't land a 2nd FA to partner with Kawhi, or strike out on him, they might give up some youth and space for Holiday.

That's just a handful of names that I think can offer more for Holiday than we'd be prepared to give up. I think he'd cost us Fournier + Bamba at least.

Conley, I don't know. Maybe the Lakers offer Ball + their pick for him if they strike out on FAs?

I don't think we necessarily need to give up the #16 pick for Conley if we're giving up Fournier plus cap relief.
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