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What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic?

Moderators: UCFJayBird, MagicMadness, Howard Mass, ChosenSavior, SOUL, Def Swami

I wouldn't pay Vuc anything more than $ ___ Million per year on his next 4 year contract.

$30M
2
3%
$29M
0
No votes
$28M
1
1%
$27M
4
6%
$26M
0
No votes
$25M
16
24%
$24M
10
15%
$23M
5
7%
$22M
11
16%
$21M
18
27%
 
Total votes: 67

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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#221 » by Skin » Tue May 21, 2019 5:24 pm

I wonder if there a solution that fits everyone?

I've come to the realization that it's less about the money and more about the years.

If Vuc is only able to get $22-23M per year over 4 years... that amounts to $88-92M.

So my question is... would he take a shorter term contract that gives him similar money?

He obviously won't take a 2 year deal, so that's out of the question, imo. But a 3 year deal with a Team Option in the 3rd year might be possible if we offered him $35M in the first 2 years and $18-22M in the 3rd year. He'd make the same amount of money in less time.

This would give Bamba 2 more seasons to develop and then we can decide what to do with Vuc after that...

If Bamba is ready, then we can terminate Vuc's 3rd year OR if Bamba is still not ready, then we can pick up Vuc's Team Option.

Even in the latter scenario, Vuc's deal is declining and could possibly be a nice trade asset. Thoughts?
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#222 » by MasterGMer » Tue May 21, 2019 5:45 pm

Skin wrote:I wonder if there a solution that fits everyone?

I've come to the realization that it's less about the money and more about the years.

If Vuc is only able to get $22-23M per year over 4 years... that amounts to $88-92M.

So my question is... would he take a shorter term contract that gives him similar money?

He obviously won't take a 2 year deal, so that's out of the question, imo. But a 3 year deal with a Team Option in the 3rd year might be possible if we offered him $35M in the first 2 years and $18-22M in the 3rd year. He'd make the same amount of money in less time.

This would give Bamba 2 more seasons to develop and then we can decide what to do with Vuc after that...

If Bamba is ready, then we can terminate Vuc's 3rd year OR if Bamba is still not ready, then we can pick up Vuc's Team Option.

Even in the latter scenario, Vuc's deal is declining and could possibly be a nice trade asset. Thoughts?


I agree with you on that. Orlando FO has said they would not low ball on Vuc's contract but we could manipulate the term and declining option. And resigning him could be our Priority this summer.

My question is: How do we make sure this team takes the next step, If we resigned Ross and Vuc and remain still on trades and Free Agents?
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#223 » by Skin » Tue May 21, 2019 5:54 pm

MasterGMer wrote:
Skin wrote:I wonder if there a solution that fits everyone?

I've come to the realization that it's less about the money and more about the years.

If Vuc is only able to get $22-23M per year over 4 years... that amounts to $88-92M.

So my question is... would he take a shorter term contract that gives him similar money?

He obviously won't take a 2 year deal, so that's out of the question, imo. But a 3 year deal with a Team Option in the 3rd year might be possible if we offered him $35M in the first 2 years and $18-22M in the 3rd year. He'd make the same amount of money in less time.

This would give Bamba 2 more seasons to develop and then we can decide what to do with Vuc after that...

If Bamba is ready, then we can terminate Vuc's 3rd year OR if Bamba is still not ready, then we can pick up Vuc's Team Option.

Even in the latter scenario, Vuc's deal is declining and could possibly be a nice trade asset. Thoughts?


I agree with you on that. Orlando FO has said they would not low ball on Vuc's contract but we could manipulate the term and declining option. And resigning him could be our Priority this summer.

My question is: How do we make sure this team takes the next step, If we resigned Ross and Vuc and remain still on trades and Free Agents?

The key to our next step is gonna have to come from development within. Improvements from Isaac, Iwundu, Gordon, Bamba... and hopefully Fultz.

I don't even think we can afford to bring back Ross if we pay Vuc.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#224 » by MasterGMer » Tue May 21, 2019 6:04 pm

Instead of just letting Vuc walk and we get nothing, what about a Sign and Trade with Vuc and some other team?
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#225 » by ezzzp » Tue May 21, 2019 6:20 pm

Xatticus wrote:I think I would wait the market out and explore alternatives. There is just going to be far more talent than money out there and there isn't any point in paying $20M+ per year when nobody else is going to be willing to. This is going to be a buyer's market and I'm sure our front office would love to explore some options this summer. The available cap space is going to dry up very quickly if some of the big names (Durant, Leonard, Walker, Butler, Irving, etc...) change teams. If someone like Thompson, Harris, or Russell changes teams, the market will tighten up very quickly.

I would tell Vucevic to explore free agency and keep us apprised. If Sacramento or Atlanta (or whoever) is willing to pay him in excess of $20M per year, then you give him a pat on the back and move on. Sacramento isn't going to match an offer sheet on WCS if they sign Vucevic. Toronto let the market for Lowry play out in 2014/15 and ended up re-signing him for three years at $12M per year because of the lack of interest around the league.


Minus your baseline number, this is the message the FO has been repeating. They've said they are making it a priority to keep him, but they aren't going to pay more than anyone else.

As I have been repeating over and over, the market looks like what it will take to retain Vucevic will be a reasonable number. In the polls (small sample of course) on this forum and T&T forum, the majority $ amount and the averaged $ amount say that reasonable is between $20m-$23m. Thats the same range that I have been repeating will be his price range.

Could some FO just massively overpay the market? Sure anything is possible. Is it likely? Not really.

As I have been stating, the Sacramento/Atlanta scenarios are long shots.

Sacramento would have to sacrifice WCS, who was a crucial player to the pace and style they played last season. Now Luke Walton is their coach and he also likes to play that way...even more so than Joerger. Their ball handlers are good 3pt shooters and playmakers so they have no crucial need to create space from the C position.

Atlanta's top core (coming off of 2nd year of rebuild) PG T Young (20) and PF J Collins (21) are massive defensive liabilities. To make that pairing work they'll need to surround them with excellent defenders...at C a low USG defensive specialist is what makes sense. Young is also excellent shooter and ball handler, so a perimeter shooting 5 isn't something they "need" to make it work.

In my opinion, the Clippers are the real threat. Doc Rivers has been praising Vucevic for years, and the coaching style matches. They need a starting center, and Vucevic has ties to the community (went to HS in LA and spent 3 years at USC). That doesn't mean that Jerry West will overpay, but it does mean that the Magic will possibly have to convince Vucevic to stay over the Clippers.

That might mean outbidding LAC. But if they get one of the more likely for them mid max guys or above, they can only offer that second FA well below $20m.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#226 » by MasterGMer » Tue May 21, 2019 6:43 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Xatticus wrote:I think I would wait the market out and explore alternatives. There is just going to be far more talent than money out there and there isn't any point in paying $20M+ per year when nobody else is going to be willing to. This is going to be a buyer's market and I'm sure our front office would love to explore some options this summer. The available cap space is going to dry up very quickly if some of the big names (Durant, Leonard, Walker, Butler, Irving, etc...) change teams. If someone like Thompson, Harris, or Russell changes teams, the market will tighten up very quickly.

I would tell Vucevic to explore free agency and keep us apprised. If Sacramento or Atlanta (or whoever) is willing to pay him in excess of $20M per year, then you give him a pat on the back and move on. Sacramento isn't going to match an offer sheet on WCS if they sign Vucevic. Toronto let the market for Lowry play out in 2014/15 and ended up re-signing him for three years at $12M per year because of the lack of interest around the league.


Minus your baseline number, this the message the FO has been repeating. They've said they are making it a priority to keep him, but they aren't going to pay more than anyone else.

As I have been repeating over and over, the market looks like what it will take to retain Vucevic will be a reasonable number. In the polls (small sample of course) on this forum and T&T forum, the majority $ amount and the averaged $ amount say that reasonable is between $20m-$23m. Thats the same range that I have been repeating will be his price range.

Could some FO just massively overpay the market? Sure anything is possible. Is it likely? Not really.

As I have been stating, the Sacramento/Atlanta scenarios are long shots.

Sacramento would have to sacrifice WCS, who was a crucial player to the pace and style they played last season. Now Luke Walton is their coach and he also likes to play that way...even more so than Joerger. Their ball handlers are good 3pt shooters and playmakers so they have no crucial need to create space from the C position.

Atlanta's top core (coming off of 2nd year of rebuild) PG T Young (20) and PF J Collins (21) are massive defensive liabilities. To make that pairing work they'll need to surround them with excellent defenders...at C a low USG defensive specialist is what makes sense. Young is also excellent shooter and ball handler, so a perimeter shooting 5 isn't something they "need" to make it work.

In my opinion, the Clippers are the real threat. Doc Rivers has been praising Vucevic for years, and the coaching style matches. They need a starting center, and Vucevic has ties to the community (went to HS in LA and spent 3 years at USC). That doesn't mean that Jerry West will overpay, but it does mean that the Magic will possibly have to convince Vucevic to stay over the Clippers.

That might mean outbidding LAC. But if they get one of the more likely for them mid max guys or above, they can only offer that second FA well below $20m.



We have team option or Qualifying offer on Jerrell, Grant and Birch and I am seeing us waiving Grant and Jerrell. That gives us 83.3 in guaranteed total with Ross's Cap Hold 15 million and Vuc's Cap Hold 19 million. The cap 2019/20 is 109 million. That gives us 25 million in cap space without (Vuc and Ross). And that is also without Mozgov's contract off the board.

How are we going to handle this? Stretch Mozgov? (Is there a way to trade Mozgov while getting the salary off the board?) Renouncing Ross and Vuc and let them go? Let Vuc walk but retain Ross? Go after other FAs on the market? (DRussle or Walker?)
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#227 » by Skin » Tue May 21, 2019 7:10 pm

MasterGMer wrote:Instead of just letting Vuc walk and we get nothing, what about a Sign and Trade with Vuc and some other team?

S&T would work if a team wants to give Vuc a 5 year max contract (they can only offer a 4 year max on their own). Don't see any team trying to do that.

The return on a S&T is normally pretty crappy. Remember Ryno for Gustavo Ayon?

Would rather keep our cap space. People keep thinking that losing Vuc for nothing means a total loss. But it would be worse off for us to bring back players who eat up our cap space unwisely.

If it's something like us giving Seattle 2 2nd rounders for Rashard Lewis... that's something I'd do. But again, don't see a team needing to do that since Vuc doesn't command a 5 year deal in order to secure his services.

Right now is the worst time to trade Vuc and hope to get a good player in return. Those wishes flew out the door at the trade deadline.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#228 » by MagicMatic » Tue May 21, 2019 7:32 pm

Skin wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
Skin wrote:I wonder if there a solution that fits everyone?

I've come to the realization that it's less about the money and more about the years.

If Vuc is only able to get $22-23M per year over 4 years... that amounts to $88-92M.

So my question is... would he take a shorter term contract that gives him similar money?

He obviously won't take a 2 year deal, so that's out of the question, imo. But a 3 year deal with a Team Option in the 3rd year might be possible if we offered him $35M in the first 2 years and $18-22M in the 3rd year. He'd make the same amount of money in less time.

This would give Bamba 2 more seasons to develop and then we can decide what to do with Vuc after that...

If Bamba is ready, then we can terminate Vuc's 3rd year OR if Bamba is still not ready, then we can pick up Vuc's Team Option.

Even in the latter scenario, Vuc's deal is declining and could possibly be a nice trade asset. Thoughts?


I agree with you on that. Orlando FO has said they would not low ball on Vuc's contract but we could manipulate the term and declining option. And resigning him could be our Priority this summer.

My question is: How do we make sure this team takes the next step, If we resigned Ross and Vuc and remain still on trades and Free Agents?

The key to our next step is gonna have to come from development within. Improvements from Isaac, Iwundu, Gordon, Bamba... and hopefully Fultz.

I don't even think we can afford to bring back Ross if we pay Vuc.


This is why it’s all or nothing IMO. It doesn’t make sense to lose a huge part of the offense, especially the part that Orlando is bereft of in outside scoring, if they won’t be reaching the playoffs again. Ross was instrumental in providing offense, that Orlando lacked significantly, and I don’t see that being replaced by the apparent skill sets available on this roster currently.

They either need to change the system entirely, building upon the youth and entrusting them with playing time. OR
They need to repeat last season, by hoping Orlando can make the playoffs again under different circumstances, while simultaneously not handing out deals that will look bad two years from now. People wanting a short top loaded Vuc deal are overlooking the fact that it’s a complete stopgap to the primary issue that Orlando lacks an offense not predicated on the two players in question. It’s merely settling as a franchise because there are no other options. That’s a sad way of looking at it, but it’s true.

Regardless, both avenues are ideologically tied to approaches in development. Everyone knows Bamba wasn’t and likely isn’t ready now. That doesn’t mean there aren’t a ton of other viable options available. Does that mean they will replace Vuc’s production? No. However, that also doesn’t mean the FO won’t try to make changes to build upon their personal investments in AG, JI, MO, and hopefully Fultz.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#229 » by Skin » Tue May 21, 2019 7:42 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
Skin wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
I agree with you on that. Orlando FO has said they would not low ball on Vuc's contract but we could manipulate the term and declining option. And resigning him could be our Priority this summer.

My question is: How do we make sure this team takes the next step, If we resigned Ross and Vuc and remain still on trades and Free Agents?

The key to our next step is gonna have to come from development within. Improvements from Isaac, Iwundu, Gordon, Bamba... and hopefully Fultz.

I don't even think we can afford to bring back Ross if we pay Vuc.


This is why it’s all or nothing IMO. It doesn’t make sense to lose a huge part of the offense, especially the part that Orlando is bereft of in outside scoring, if they won’t be reaching the playoffs again. Ross was instrumental in providing offense, that Orlando lacked significantly, and I don’t see that being replaced by the apparent skill sets available on this roster currently.

They either need to change the system entirely, building upon the youth and entrusting them with playing time. OR
They need to repeat last season, by hoping Orlando can make the playoffs again under different circumstances, while simultaneously not handing out deals that will look bad two years from now. People wanting a short contract top loaded Vuc deal are overlooking the fact that it’s a complete stopgap to the primary issue that Orlando lacks an offense not predicated on the two players in question. It’s merely settling as a franchise because there are no other options. That’s a sad way of looking at it, but it’s true.

Regardless, both avenues are ideologically tied to approaches in development. Everyone knows Bamba wasn’t and likely isn’t ready now. That doesn’t mean there aren’t a ton of other viable options available. Does that mean they will replace Vuc’s production? No. However, that also doesn’t mean the FO won’t try to make changes to build upon their personal investments in AG, JI, MO, and hopefully Fultz.

Replace Ross with Oubre who is young and fits the timeline of our youth. 8-)
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#230 » by NotACat » Tue May 21, 2019 8:24 pm

Skin wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Skin wrote:The key to our next step is gonna have to come from development within. Improvements from Isaac, Iwundu, Gordon, Bamba... and hopefully Fultz.

I don't even think we can afford to bring back Ross if we pay Vuc.


This is why it’s all or nothing IMO. It doesn’t make sense to lose a huge part of the offense, especially the part that Orlando is bereft of in outside scoring, if they won’t be reaching the playoffs again. Ross was instrumental in providing offense, that Orlando lacked significantly, and I don’t see that being replaced by the apparent skill sets available on this roster currently.

They either need to change the system entirely, building upon the youth and entrusting them with playing time. OR
They need to repeat last season, by hoping Orlando can make the playoffs again under different circumstances, while simultaneously not handing out deals that will look bad two years from now. People wanting a short contract top loaded Vuc deal are overlooking the fact that it’s a complete stopgap to the primary issue that Orlando lacks an offense not predicated on the two players in question. It’s merely settling as a franchise because there are no other options. That’s a sad way of looking at it, but it’s true.

Regardless, both avenues are ideologically tied to approaches in development. Everyone knows Bamba wasn’t and likely isn’t ready now. That doesn’t mean there aren’t a ton of other viable options available. Does that mean they will replace Vuc’s production? No. However, that also doesn’t mean the FO won’t try to make changes to build upon their personal investments in AG, JI, MO, and hopefully Fultz.

Replace Ross with Oubre who is young and fits the timeline of our youth. 8-)

Oubre is only a 32% 3pt shooter on 5 attempts a game...
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#231 » by Skin » Tue May 21, 2019 8:57 pm

NotACat wrote:
Skin wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
This is why it’s all or nothing IMO. It doesn’t make sense to lose a huge part of the offense, especially the part that Orlando is bereft of in outside scoring, if they won’t be reaching the playoffs again. Ross was instrumental in providing offense, that Orlando lacked significantly, and I don’t see that being replaced by the apparent skill sets available on this roster currently.

They either need to change the system entirely, building upon the youth and entrusting them with playing time. OR
They need to repeat last season, by hoping Orlando can make the playoffs again under different circumstances, while simultaneously not handing out deals that will look bad two years from now. People wanting a short contract top loaded Vuc deal are overlooking the fact that it’s a complete stopgap to the primary issue that Orlando lacks an offense not predicated on the two players in question. It’s merely settling as a franchise because there are no other options. That’s a sad way of looking at it, but it’s true.

Regardless, both avenues are ideologically tied to approaches in development. Everyone knows Bamba wasn’t and likely isn’t ready now. That doesn’t mean there aren’t a ton of other viable options available. Does that mean they will replace Vuc’s production? No. However, that also doesn’t mean the FO won’t try to make changes to build upon their personal investments in AG, JI, MO, and hopefully Fultz.

Replace Ross with Oubre who is young and fits the timeline of our youth. 8-)

Oubre is only a 32% 3pt shooter on 5 attempts a game...

True. But last year he shot 34%. Clifford seems like the type of coach who could instill more discipline in his shot selection and improve those numbers. I think he could improve his game all around. Oubre has immense defensive potential. Excellent athleticism, long 7'3 wingspan...Coveted WeHam traits..... He only started to put it things together in the second half last year, but I think that was just scratching his surface.

Put it this way... if his 3pt% was higher, we'd be talking about one of the most coveted FAs this summer. This might actually come as a blessing if we can get him at an affordable price and then unlock his potential. Depends on how WeHam scouts him out and how he develops going forward. He's still 23. Put that alongside... Gordon, 23. Iwundu, 24. Isaac, 21. Bamba, 21. Fultz, 20. #16...NAW (?), 20... We'd have a solid young core with guys who all have growth to unlock... #organic #sustainability #stepbystep #shoutouttohenny
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#232 » by ezzzp » Tue May 21, 2019 9:34 pm

MasterGMer wrote:We have team option or Qualifying offer on Jerrell, Grant and Birch and I am seeing us waiving Grant and Jerrell. That gives us 83.3 in guaranteed total with Ross's Cap Hold 15 million and Vuc's Cap Hold 19 million. The cap 2019/20 is 109 million. That gives us 25 million in cap space without (Vuc and Ross). And that is also without Mozgov's contract off the board.

How are we going to handle this? Stretch Mozgov? (Is there a way to trade Mozgov while getting the salary off the board?) Renouncing Ross and Vuc and let them go? Let Vuc walk but retain Ross? Go after other FAs on the market? (DRussle or Walker?)


The Magic have Bird Rights on Vucevic and Ross, so they can resign them over the salary cap. For the most part, teams operate above the salary cap line.

The threshold that matters most (in relation to signing your own free agents) is the Luxury Tax Line, which next season the NBA official estimate is $131m.

The Magic can sign Vucevic to $22m and Ross to $12.5m and have about $8m in Luxury Tax Room with 12 roster spots filled. That's without Birch and MCW.

If the Magic renounce Mozgov, they could have $19m in Luxury Tax Room. They can't sign other peoples free agents with that amount, at least not unless they use one of their exceptions (Mid Level Exception $9.2m / Bi-Annual Exception $3.6m). They could also hypothetically trade into that space.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#233 » by Xatticus » Tue May 21, 2019 10:38 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Xatticus wrote:I think I would wait the market out and explore alternatives. There is just going to be far more talent than money out there and there isn't any point in paying $20M+ per year when nobody else is going to be willing to. This is going to be a buyer's market and I'm sure our front office would love to explore some options this summer. The available cap space is going to dry up very quickly if some of the big names (Durant, Leonard, Walker, Butler, Irving, etc...) change teams. If someone like Thompson, Harris, or Russell changes teams, the market will tighten up very quickly.

I would tell Vucevic to explore free agency and keep us apprised. If Sacramento or Atlanta (or whoever) is willing to pay him in excess of $20M per year, then you give him a pat on the back and move on. Sacramento isn't going to match an offer sheet on WCS if they sign Vucevic. Toronto let the market for Lowry play out in 2014/15 and ended up re-signing him for three years at $12M per year because of the lack of interest around the league.


Minus your baseline number, this is the message the FO has been repeating. They've said they are making it a priority to keep him, but they aren't going to pay more than anyone else.

As I have been repeating over and over, the market looks like what it will take to retain Vucevic will be a reasonable number. In the polls (small sample of course) on this forum and T&T forum, the majority $ amount and the averaged $ amount say that reasonable is between $20m-$23m. Thats the same range that I have been repeating will be his price range.

Could some FO just massively overpay the market? Sure anything is possible. Is it likely? Not really.

As I have been stating, the Sacramento/Atlanta scenarios are long shots.

Sacramento would have to sacrifice WCS, who was a crucial player to the pace and style they played last season. Now Luke Walton is their coach and he also likes to play that way...even more so than Joerger. Their ball handlers are good 3pt shooters and playmakers so they have no crucial need to create space from the C position.

Atlanta's top core (coming off of 2nd year of rebuild) PG T Young (20) and PF J Collins (21) are massive defensive liabilities. To make that pairing work they'll need to surround them with excellent defenders...at C a low USG defensive specialist is what makes sense. Young is also excellent shooter and ball handler, so a perimeter shooting 5 isn't something they "need" to make it work.

In my opinion, the Clippers are the real threat. Doc Rivers has been praising Vucevic for years, and the coaching style matches. They need a starting center, and Vucevic has ties to the community (went to HS in LA and spent 3 years at USC). That doesn't mean that Jerry West will overpay, but it does mean that the Magic will possibly have to convince Vucevic to stay over the Clippers.

That might mean outbidding LAC. But if they get one of the more likely for them mid max guys or above, they can only offer that second FA well below $20m.


Maybe the Clippers have interest, but they traded Harris because they weren't willing to pay him and he was actually more efficient with the Clippers than Vucevic was with the Magic this year. Rivers isn't their GM anymore. The Clippers' primary target this year is obviously going to be Leonard.

Vucevic's market is tenuous right now. If a few of the big names change teams, his market could evaporate. You can let him explore his options and if there is a decision to be made on $25M per year, then you make that decision when you are forced to. There is no sense in making that decision before free agency opens though, as his best offer might be around $15M per year.

Everyone saw what Vucevic did this year. Everyone saw that he made the All-Star team. Everyone also saw what happened in the playoffs. And everyone also saw the player he was in the previous six years. Nobody wants to pay $20M+ per year for the next four years for a .535 TS% low post center. This is why he isn't even a consensus top 10 free agent this summer.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#234 » by Xatticus » Tue May 21, 2019 10:47 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
Skin wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
I agree with you on that. Orlando FO has said they would not low ball on Vuc's contract but we could manipulate the term and declining option. And resigning him could be our Priority this summer.

My question is: How do we make sure this team takes the next step, If we resigned Ross and Vuc and remain still on trades and Free Agents?

The key to our next step is gonna have to come from development within. Improvements from Isaac, Iwundu, Gordon, Bamba... and hopefully Fultz.

I don't even think we can afford to bring back Ross if we pay Vuc.


This is why it’s all or nothing IMO. It doesn’t make sense to lose a huge part of the offense, especially the part that Orlando is bereft of in outside scoring, if they won’t be reaching the playoffs again. Ross was instrumental in providing offense, that Orlando lacked significantly, and I don’t see that being replaced by the apparent skill sets available on this roster currently.

They either need to change the system entirely, building upon the youth and entrusting them with playing time. OR
They need to repeat last season, by hoping Orlando can make the playoffs again under different circumstances, while simultaneously not handing out deals that will look bad two years from now. People wanting a short top loaded Vuc deal are overlooking the fact that it’s a complete stopgap to the primary issue that Orlando lacks an offense not predicated on the two players in question. It’s merely settling as a franchise because there are no other options. That’s a sad way of looking at it, but it’s true.

Regardless, both avenues are ideologically tied to approaches in development. Everyone knows Bamba wasn’t and likely isn’t ready now. That doesn’t mean there aren’t a ton of other viable options available. Does that mean they will replace Vuc’s production? No. However, that also doesn’t mean the FO won’t try to make changes to build upon their personal investments in AG, JI, MO, and hopefully Fultz.


We were actually 12th in 3P% this year and 15th in 3-point attempts. I'm not going to argue that we are a good shooting team, but our offense underperformed relative to our shooting this year. Everyone looks like a really bad shooting team after watching Golden St. play.

Our biggest problems offensively this year were a lack of diversity, an inability to get the the free throw line, and a lack of facilitation. Clifford's Charlotte teams lacked diversity as well. He really likes to ride his primary options. Whether or not Vucevic returns, I really hope that we see more diversity in how we initiate our offense next year.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#235 » by ezzzp » Tue May 21, 2019 11:46 pm

Xatticus wrote:
Maybe the Clippers have interest, but they traded Harris because they weren't willing to pay him and he was actually more efficient with the Clippers than Vucevic was with the Magic this year. Rivers isn't their GM anymore. The Clippers' primary target this year is obviously going to be Leonard.

Vucevic's market is tenuous right now. If a few of the big names change teams, his market could evaporate. You can let him explore his options and if there is a decision to be made on $25M per year, then you make that decision when you are forced to. There is no sense in making that decision before free agency opens though, as his best offer might be around $15M per year.

Everyone saw what Vucevic did this year. Everyone saw that he made the All-Star team. Everyone also saw what happened in the playoffs. And everyone also saw the player he was in the previous six years. Nobody wants to pay $20M+ per year for the next four years for a .535 TS% low post center. This is why he isn't even a consensus top 10 free agent this summer.



Yea, their eyes are obviously locked in on Kawhi. So that second player will have to be someone willing to take <$20m and not be a SF. Possibly not a PG either because of Shai. I bet they are trying hard to move Gallinari's $22.6m, to be able to have more options. I mentioned Doc because he's their coach and he loves Vucevic, its why I also said Jerry West wouldn't overpay.

I agree that there is a decent chance that Vuc's options could quickly disappear if top free agents change teams. I've been saying that both sides (Orlando/Vuc) need each other more than others do and why I think there is a good chance they come to very reasonable terms.

Teams know what Vucevic is, a solid starting C.

Now that he's added the 3pt shot he's no longer that .535 TS% low post center. He's now a .573 TS% big who shot .364 from behind the arc. I don't think his 3pt shooting was an aberration, but rather a natural progression. He's always been a good perimeter shooter (those dreaded long two's) and he's always been a solid FT shooter...so it looks very sustainable. He stated that improving on his 3pt shot is his offseason priority, so its not unrealistic that he takes another jump in efficiency.

How valuable that is to other teams really depends on their primary ball handlers/playmakers. For a team like Milwaukee, Lopez pulling bigs out has been huge for Giannis and Bledsoe (who are both not good shooters).

With Gordon (.349 3p%) and Isaac (.321 3p%) and now Fultz (.286 3p%)...the Magic are one of those teams that are looking a lot like they are going to be constructed to need that.

As far as his consensus free agent ranking:

NBA.com ranks him at 10
Bleacher Report ranks him at 8
Hoops Rumors ranks him at 10
Hoops hype has him at 11
CBS Sports has him at 9
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#236 » by MagicMatic » Wed May 22, 2019 12:15 am

Xatticus wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Skin wrote:The key to our next step is gonna have to come from development within. Improvements from Isaac, Iwundu, Gordon, Bamba... and hopefully Fultz.

I don't even think we can afford to bring back Ross if we pay Vuc.


This is why it’s all or nothing IMO. It doesn’t make sense to lose a huge part of the offense, especially the part that Orlando is bereft of in outside scoring, if they won’t be reaching the playoffs again. Ross was instrumental in providing offense, that Orlando lacked significantly, and I don’t see that being replaced by the apparent skill sets available on this roster currently.

They either need to change the system entirely, building upon the youth and entrusting them with playing time. OR
They need to repeat last season, by hoping Orlando can make the playoffs again under different circumstances, while simultaneously not handing out deals that will look bad two years from now. People wanting a short top loaded Vuc deal are overlooking the fact that it’s a complete stopgap to the primary issue that Orlando lacks an offense not predicated on the two players in question. It’s merely settling as a franchise because there are no other options. That’s a sad way of looking at it, but it’s true.

Regardless, both avenues are ideologically tied to approaches in development. Everyone knows Bamba wasn’t and likely isn’t ready now. That doesn’t mean there aren’t a ton of other viable options available. Does that mean they will replace Vuc’s production? No. However, that also doesn’t mean the FO won’t try to make changes to build upon their personal investments in AG, JI, MO, and hopefully Fultz.


We were actually 12th in 3P% this year and 15th in 3-point attempts. I'm not going to argue that we are a good shooting team, but our offense underperformed relative to our shooting this year. Everyone looks like a really bad shooting team after watching Golden St. play.

Our biggest problems offensively this year were a lack of diversity, an inability to get the the free throw line, and a lack of facilitation. Clifford's Charlotte teams lacked diversity as well. He really likes to ride his primary options. Whether or not Vucevic returns, I really hope that we see more diversity in how we initiate our offense next year.


Completely agree. Getting to the line and facilitating a varied offense needs to be addressed if the Magic are going to be successful. I don’t think that happens as much with Vuc back getting the majority of touches, with Cliff sticking to his primary options, like he did in Charlotte.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#237 » by Ball4life32 » Wed May 22, 2019 3:05 pm

ezzzp wrote:Atlanta's top core (coming off of 2nd year of rebuild) PG T Young (20) and PF J Collins (21) are massive defensive liabilities. To make that pairing work they'll need to surround them with excellent defenders...at C a low USG defensive specialist is what makes sense. Young is also excellent shooter and ball handler, so a perimeter shooting 5 isn't something they "need" to make it work.

I don’t think Collins is a massive defensive liability. He had a +1.9 DBPM (1.1 BLK in 24.1 Mins) as a rookie in Coach Bud’s system and this past year he got off to a slow start (missed the first 18 games with an ankle injury in preseason) but was much more active defensively later in the season.

First 47 games:
18 blocks (0.4 BPG a game in 29.9 MPG)

Last 14 games:
24 blocks (1.5 BPG game in 30.4 MPG)

Trae we’ll see if he can get closer to average defensively ...he’s only 20 and improved as the season went on.

Hawks also do VALUE a stretch shooting 5. There’s a reason why you saw Len and Dedmon shooting more volume 3’s then they ever had in their career. Non shooting big clogs the paint for Trae/Collins. Ideally the Hawks would like shooters everywhere.

Hawks won’t be a player on the FA market this year though unless Durant/Leonard/Thompson (not happening) wanted to come. Hawks will build around Trae, Huerter, Collins + hopefully 8 + 10 picks so they won’t be looking to sign Vuc.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#238 » by ezzzp » Wed May 22, 2019 6:26 pm

Atlhawks09 wrote:
ezzzp wrote:Atlanta's top core (coming off of 2nd year of rebuild) PG T Young (20) and PF J Collins (21) are massive defensive liabilities. To make that pairing work they'll need to surround them with excellent defenders...at C a low USG defensive specialist is what makes sense. Young is also excellent shooter and ball handler, so a perimeter shooting 5 isn't something they "need" to make it work.

I don’t think Collins is a massive defensive liability. He had a +1.9 DBPM (1.1 BLK in 24.1 Mins) as a rookie in Coach Bud’s system and this past year he got off to a slow start (missed the first 18 games with an ankle injury in preseason) but was much more active defensively later in the season.

First 47 games:
18 blocks (0.4 BPG a game in 29.9 MPG)

Last 14 games:
24 blocks (1.5 BPG game in 30.4 MPG)

Trae we’ll see if he can get closer to average defensively ...he’s only 20 and improved as the season went on.

Hawks also do VALUE a stretch shooting 5. There’s a reason why you saw Len and Dedmon shooting more volume 3’s then they ever had in their career. Non shooting big clogs the paint for Trae/Collins. Ideally the Hawks would like shooters everywhere.

Hawks won’t be a player on the FA market this year though unless Durant/Leonard/Thompson (not happening) wanted to come. Hawks will build around Trae, Huerter, Collins + hopefully 8 + 10 picks so they won’t be looking to sign Vuc.


I like what I saw of Alex Len, he's improved all around. It seems like he still needs to get a bit stronger but he could take another nice production jump next year and you guys have him dirt cheap at $4m. That was a nice pick up. He could evolve into a good fit as his body enters prime physicality.

Individual defensive statistics aren't really a good measure for gauging if a player is good defensively or not. The best way to look at defense is in 5 player lineup increments and team context. Another metric I have found to be informative is NBA.com's tracking data (Defensive Dashboard) that measures Defensive FG% + has comparison to how that player impacts his opponents FG% in different shot zones.

If you look at the team context, you guys had the 4th worst defense in the NBA with a 113.0 Defensive Rating. Within that context, your 3 worst defenders were Prince (114.6), Young (113.6) and Collins (112.0)...but those numbers are tied together, so one or more could be dragging others down.

If you look at NBA's camera tracking DFG% and impact - those numbers show that you were right about Collins. He does actually perform much better than what my eye test had seen in the handful of games I watched you guys last season. He had a very solid -7.1 impact on opponents interior attack FG%...and was also solid on the perimeter with a -0.2 impact.

This hints that he's individually holding his own and the problem lies within team defense and that he's surrounded by weak defenders.

Len and Dedmon both had solid defensive tracking numbers.

Young is definitely not good, opponents shoot +4.0 better than their normal FG% when defended by him. I'm not sure on this, but my guess is that you guys are probably hiding him on that end too...which would make that number even uglier given context. Huerter was really really bad with a +6 impact. The defensive issue is in the guards/wings, so you guys will have to overcompensate around that with excellent defenders, at SG/SF and/or C for most impact.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#239 » by rcklsscognition » Wed May 22, 2019 8:06 pm

1 year deal, 30 million. I would not have gotten myself into this position as GM and at some point someone needs to step in and fix things. Just because keeping him makes us the better team next year doesn't mean it's the right move to keep him for the next 4. It's going to hurt, but again, wouldn't have put us in this position to begin with, but I would get us out.

The only other scenario I would entertain would be gutting the rest of the roster in order to give Vuc a 3-year 25 million deal. But I would need Mozgov moved and more $$ contracts gone in order to sign a scoring guard.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#240 » by Ball4life32 » Wed May 22, 2019 9:31 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Atlhawks09 wrote:
ezzzp wrote:Atlanta's top core (coming off of 2nd year of rebuild) PG T Young (20) and PF J Collins (21) are massive defensive liabilities. To make that pairing work they'll need to surround them with excellent defenders...at C a low USG defensive specialist is what makes sense. Young is also excellent shooter and ball handler, so a perimeter shooting 5 isn't something they "need" to make it work.

I don’t think Collins is a massive defensive liability. He had a +1.9 DBPM (1.1 BLK in 24.1 Mins) as a rookie in Coach Bud’s system and this past year he got off to a slow start (missed the first 18 games with an ankle injury in preseason) but was much more active defensively later in the season.

First 47 games:
18 blocks (0.4 BPG a game in 29.9 MPG)

Last 14 games:
24 blocks (1.5 BPG game in 30.4 MPG)

Trae we’ll see if he can get closer to average defensively ...he’s only 20 and improved as the season went on.

Hawks also do VALUE a stretch shooting 5. There’s a reason why you saw Len and Dedmon shooting more volume 3’s then they ever had in their career. Non shooting big clogs the paint for Trae/Collins. Ideally the Hawks would like shooters everywhere.

Hawks won’t be a player on the FA market this year though unless Durant/Leonard/Thompson (not happening) wanted to come. Hawks will build around Trae, Huerter, Collins + hopefully 8 + 10 picks so they won’t be looking to sign Vuc.


I like what I saw of Alex Len, he's improved all around. It seems like he still needs to get a bit stronger but he could take another nice production jump next year and you guys have him dirt cheap at $4m. That was a nice pick up. He could evolve into a good fit as his body enters prime physicality.

Individual defensive statistics aren't really a good measure for gauging if a player is good defensively or not. The best way to look at defense is in 5 player lineup increments and team context. Another metric I have found to be informative is NBA.com's tracking data (Defensive Dashboard) that measures Defensive FG% + has comparison to how that player impacts his opponents FG% in different shot zones.

If you look at the team context, you guys had the 4th worst defense in the NBA with a 113.0 Defensive Rating. Within that context, your 3 worst defenders were Prince (114.6), Young (113.6) and Collins (112.0)...but those numbers are tied together, so one or more could be dragging others down.

If you look at NBA's camera tracking DFG% and impact - those numbers show that you were right about Collins. He does actually perform much better than what my eye test had seen in the handful of games I watched you guys last season. He had a very solid -7.1 impact on opponents interior attack FG%...and was also solid on the perimeter with a -0.2 impact.

This hints that he's individually holding his own and the problem lies within team defense and that he's surrounded by weak defenders.

Len and Dedmon both had solid defensive tracking numbers.

Young is definitely not good, opponents shoot +4.0 better than their normal FG% when defended by him. I'm not sure on this, but my guess is that you guys are probably hiding him on that end too...which would make that number even uglier given context. Huerter was really really bad with a +6 impact. The defensive issue is in the guards/wings, so you guys will have to overcompensate around that with excellent defenders, at SG/SF and/or C for most impact.

Yeah I agree that a lot of the defensive issues
comes from the backcourt. At the same time both Trae/Huerter were 20 year old rookies starting at PG/SG so I’m not surprised a rookie backcourt (both know for Off) would struggle on that end...I did think both improved as the season went. Not saying either will be elite defenders but let’s see how they look as they get older / more experience.

Not sure about Prince...he was decent as a rookie and last year but was really bad this year and shooting + defense was what he was known for at Baylor.

Would still like to add good defenders around them regardless that fit offensively. I want Reddish + Bol (if foot checks out)

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