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What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic?

Moderators: Def Swami, Howard Mass, UCFJayBird, UCF, ChosenSavior, Knightro, SOUL

I wouldn't pay Vuc anything more than $ ___ Million per year on his next 4 year contract.

$30M
3
4%
$29M
0
No votes
$28M
1
1%
$27M
4
6%
$26M
1
1%
$25M
18
25%
$24M
10
14%
$23M
5
7%
$22M
11
15%
$21M
19
26%
 
Total votes: 72

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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#121 » by Catledge » Tue May 14, 2019 9:37 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Bensational wrote:For him to become that in this current era of ball, he'll need to become a C who can move with the ball like Jokic and Embiid


This is a bit of a tangent from your comment, but I wanted to explore what this means within context of this Vucevic thread and if/where there is potential for Magic C's to improve:

• Drives

Jokic: 298 Drives / 72-134 (.537 FG%) / 42 FTA / 10.1 AST% - 9.1 TOV%
Embiid: 305 Drives / 81-155 (.523 FG%) / 111 FTA / 2.3 AST% - 11.5 TOV%

Vucevic: 180 Drives / 51-94 (.543 FG%) / 30 FTA / 6.1 AST% - 8.3 TOV%
Bamba: 18 Drives / 2-11 (.182 FG%) / 8 FTA / 0.0 AST% - 11.1 TOV%
Birch: 20 Drives / 4-9 (.444 FG%) / 12 FTA / 10.0 AST% - 0.0 TOV%


• 3PT Shooting (modern system floor spacing)

Jokic: 83-269 (.309 3P%)
Embiid: 78-257 (.304 3P%)

Vucevic: 80-222 (.360 3P%)
Bamba: 21-70 (.300 3P%)
Birch: 0-1 (.000 3P%)

• Creation (modern system passing)

Jokic: 36.1 AST% / 2.34 AST:TO / 11.1 Ast to Pass %
Embiid: 18.5 AST% / 1.04 AST:TO / 7.0 Ast to Pass %

Vucevic: 19.5 AST% / 1.93 AST:TO / 8.7 Ast to Pass %
Bamba: 8.6 AST% / 0.91 AST:TO / 4.5 Ast to Pass %
Birch: 8.7 AST% / 1.90 AST:TO / 5.8 Ast to Pass %

• Efficiency and Shot Selection (modern system "Morey-Ball")

Jokic: 26.8 USG% / .589 TS% / 29.2 FTr / .531 % of FGA at rim or 3PT
Embiid: 32.3 USG% / .593 TS% / 54.1 FTr / .564 % of FGA at rim or 3PT

Vucevic: 27.3 USG% / .573 TS% / 16.8 FTr / .432 % of FGA at rim or 3PT
Bamba: 17.8 USG% / .539 TS% / 25.9 FTr / .638 % of FGA at rim or 3PT
Birch: 14.1 USG% / .640 TS% / 55.0 FTr / .610 % of FGA at rim or 3PT


One of the things that this tells me is that Vooch should shoot the 3 more and shot-fake + drive more.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#122 » by ezzzp » Tue May 14, 2019 9:41 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Its not flawed logic...its the ideology of the best developmental franchises in the NBA: Spurs, Utah, Boston, Milwaukee, Denver, Toronto, Miami etc. Those teams ALWAYS try to construct rosters that will compete for a playoff spot. Sometimes injuries or unexpected events create losing seasons, but they immediately adjust in 1-2 seasons at most. They never do long term bottom out (tank).

Instead they use a gradual brick by brick methodology where they build up the value of ALL their assets in a winning context and then flip up (often using consolidation trades) or that context develops its own stars (often from non high lottery picks). Because of this philosophy, players and agents respect the franchise allowing them to consistently acquire quality free agents. In other words, those organizations use all three levers of improvement in tandem: draft/development + trade + free agency.

Milwaukee

G Antetokuonmpo...15th pick...drafted by MIL and developed in playoff context in 4 of his 5 years
K Middelton...39th pick...acquired via trade (at 22) developed in playoff context 4 of his 6 years
E Bledsoe...18th pick...acquired via trade at his peak prime (28)

+ Brogdon (36th), Lopez (10th), Snell (20th), Caughnaton (41st), Mirotic (23d), Hill (26th)

Toronto

K Leonard...15th pick...acquired via trade at end of prime ascent (27)
P Siakim...27th pick...drafted by TOR and developed in a playoff context entire career
K Lowry...24th pick...acquired via trade in second year of his prime ascent (26)

+ Gasol (48th), Ibaka (24th), Green (46th), VanVleet (undrafted), Powell (46th), Anunobuy (23d)

Portland

D Lillard...6th pick...drafted by POR and developed on playoff context in 6 of 7 seasons
C McCollum...10th pick...drafted by POR and developed on playoff context entire career
J Nurkic...16th pick...acquired via trade two years before his prime ascent (23)

+ Aminu (10th), Harkless (15th), Turner (2nd), Kanter (3d), Collins (10th), Curry (undrafted)

Golden State

S Curry...7th pick...drafted by GSW and developed in playoff context 7 of 10 seasons
K Thompson...11th pick...drafted by GSW and developed in playoff context 9 of 10 seasons
K Durant...2nd pick...acquired via trade at his peak prime (28)
D Green...35th pick...drafted by GSW and developed in playoff context 7 of 7 seasons

+ Iguodala (9th), Livingston (4th), Looney (30th)


Here we are and our draft picks the last what 6 years have either busted, traded due to impatience or haven't really hit that game changing level. Martins really put us where we are by hiring Henny and muddling into decisions on HC's and roster moves/playoff's now mode.

Oladipo- rushed him then traded for 30cents to push for playoffs and not wanting to spend the $. Had no mentor to help bring him along and show him the ropes. Traded away Jameer Dipo's rookie year because we're a poorly run franchise and wanted to gift opening day spots.

AG -> Role player, BGriffin Lite, starting to show more but never will be that go to guy.

Hezonja- BUST
EP- BUST

Sabonis- Moved for freaking Ibaka because again our FO was in playoff or bust mode and we couldn't have too much youth

JI- showing signs but still ways away, won't ever be a go to guy but can see him as a glue piece for multiple playoff years.

Bamba- TBD


Right. That is how Orlando has utilized their draft picks.
All of those franchises that have been successful have cornerstones to build around. Vuc is obviously not that guy.

Miami is completely in limbo paying for a roster that couldn’t even make the playoffs in the east, and picking only a few spots ahead of Orlando, while trying to remain competitive without a cornerstone. Sounds great... at that point they are hoping to offload some of their mediocre overpaid assets for hopefully better players.

Nobody is saying Orlando won’t continue to try to utilize free agency, the draft, and trades. However, two of those three options won’t be realistic with this current roster and how successful people seem to think it could possibly be. There needs to be a shakeup and Orlando has to find a cornerstone centerpiece to build around. That likely doesn’t happen repeating what Orlando did this year. It’s not that complicated.


That is what relying solely on "gaming the draft" (tanking for odds) does. It puts all the eggs in one basket...and in doing so creates worst developmental context for youth, which comically ARE "all the eggs in that basket."

Miami is NOT in limbo...that is arguably the 3d most desired FA destination market in the NBA. Next summer they have cap room for 2 max salaries (3 if they stretch Johnson and Olynyk or can salary dump them this year). Pat Riley has done this twice already and won championships both times.

Also, Orlando not being able to use trades and free agency is just your biased perpetual tanker opinion. One year under this FO coach selection changed the culture to a competitive winning context. This roster improved in one season, more than it had in 6 years of "losing is ok" tanking mentality. Retaining Vucevic will continue to keep that winning context and continue to improve development of all Magic assets...leading to opening up more trade and free agency opportunities.

The FO doesn't have your pov. The Magic FO constructed (or played major role in) assembling both Milwaukee and Toronto rosters currently in ECF...I think I'm going to value their actions and style of building roster over your "tanking is only way to win championship" perspective.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#123 » by Skin » Tue May 14, 2019 10:18 pm

ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
Here we are and our draft picks the last what 6 years have either busted, traded due to impatience or haven't really hit that game changing level. Martins really put us where we are by hiring Henny and muddling into decisions on HC's and roster moves/playoff's now mode.

Oladipo- rushed him then traded for 30cents to push for playoffs and not wanting to spend the $. Had no mentor to help bring him along and show him the ropes. Traded away Jameer Dipo's rookie year because we're a poorly run franchise and wanted to gift opening day spots.

AG -> Role player, BGriffin Lite, starting to show more but never will be that go to guy.

Hezonja- BUST
EP- BUST

Sabonis- Moved for freaking Ibaka because again our FO was in playoff or bust mode and we couldn't have too much youth

JI- showing signs but still ways away, won't ever be a go to guy but can see him as a glue piece for multiple playoff years.

Bamba- TBD


Right. That is how Orlando has utilized their draft picks.
All of those franchises that have been successful have cornerstones to build around. Vuc is obviously not that guy.

Miami is completely in limbo paying for a roster that couldn’t even make the playoffs in the east, and picking only a few spots ahead of Orlando, while trying to remain competitive without a cornerstone. Sounds great... at that point they are hoping to offload some of their mediocre overpaid assets for hopefully better players.

Nobody is saying Orlando won’t continue to try to utilize free agency, the draft, and trades. However, two of those three options won’t be realistic with this current roster and how successful people seem to think it could possibly be. There needs to be a shakeup and Orlando has to find a cornerstone centerpiece to build around. That likely doesn’t happen repeating what Orlando did this year. It’s not that complicated.


Wrong. That is what relying solely on "gaming the draft" (tanking for odds) does. It puts all the eggs in one basket...and in doing so creates worst developmental context for youth, which comically ARE "all the eggs in that basket."

Miami is NOT in limbo...that is arguably the 3d most desired FA destination market in the NBA. Next summer they have cap room for 2 max salaries (3 if they stretch Johnson and Olynyk or can salary dump them this year). Pat Riley has done this twice already and won championships both times.

Also, Orlando not being able to use trades and free agency is just your biased perpetual tanker opinion. One year under this FO coach selection changed the culture to a competitive winning context. This roster improved in one season, more than it had in 6 years of "losing is ok" tanking mentality. Retaining Vucevic will continue to keep that winning context and continue to improve development of all Magic assets...leading to opening up more trade and free agency opportunities.

The FO doesn't have your pov. The Magic FO constructed (or played major role in) assembling both Milwaukee and Toronto rosters currently in ECF...I think I'm going to value their actions and style of building roster over your "tanking is only way to win championship" perspective.

Sigh... with the tanking... still??? It's getting old. Losing Vuc doesn't mean automatically missing the playoffs.

You seem to admire WeHam. I do as well. Let's see if we can find a common ground. For starters, let's take their opinion on Vuc's FA into account. The fact that they are taking a hard approach to Vuc's FA and will not simply outbid others just to be the winning bid is encouraging for me to hear.

Secondly, they said they used 2018 as their "evaluation year". Immediately following that, they drafted Bamba at 5.

GMs all want success, but they love it even more when it's done through their own player acquisitions.

I do like the way you formatted the layout...

J Isaac...7th pick...drafted by ORL and developed in playoff context 1 of 2 seasons
M Bamba...5th pick...drafted by ORL and developed in playoff context 1 of 1 seasons
M Fultz...1st pick...acquired via trade
W Iwundu...33rd pick...drafted by ORL and developed in playoff context 1 of 2 seasons
K Birch... FA... feel like I need to include him in the core

If things pan out as hoped, that's a pretty impressive haul, imo... might be able to add another key piece at 16.

Debated whether to include Gordon or not. They did resign him, but they didn't acquire him. The contract he signed was designed as an easily tradeable one. He could be traded at some point and I wouldn't be shocked at all. Might be our best way to get a scoring guard.... and it might even happen this summer.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#124 » by Bensational » Tue May 14, 2019 10:24 pm

Catledge wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Bensational wrote:For him to become that in this current era of ball, he'll need to become a C who can move with the ball like Jokic and Embiid


This is a bit of a tangent from your comment, but I wanted to explore what this means within context of this Vucevic thread and if/where there is potential for Magic C's to improve:

• Drives

Jokic: 298 Drives / 72-134 (.537 FG%) / 42 FTA / 10.1 AST% - 9.1 TOV%
Embiid: 305 Drives / 81-155 (.523 FG%) / 111 FTA / 2.3 AST% - 11.5 TOV%

Vucevic: 180 Drives / 51-94 (.543 FG%) / 30 FTA / 6.1 AST% - 8.3 TOV%
Bamba: 18 Drives / 2-11 (.182 FG%) / 8 FTA / 0.0 AST% - 11.1 TOV%
Birch: 20 Drives / 4-9 (.444 FG%) / 12 FTA / 10.0 AST% - 0.0 TOV%


• 3PT Shooting (modern system floor spacing)

Jokic: 83-269 (.309 3P%)
Embiid: 78-257 (.304 3P%)

Vucevic: 80-222 (.360 3P%)
Bamba: 21-70 (.300 3P%)
Birch: 0-1 (.000 3P%)

• Creation (modern system passing)

Jokic: 36.1 AST% / 2.34 AST:TO / 11.1 Ast to Pass %
Embiid: 18.5 AST% / 1.04 AST:TO / 7.0 Ast to Pass %

Vucevic: 19.5 AST% / 1.93 AST:TO / 8.7 Ast to Pass %
Bamba: 8.6 AST% / 0.91 AST:TO / 4.5 Ast to Pass %
Birch: 8.7 AST% / 1.90 AST:TO / 5.8 Ast to Pass %

• Efficiency and Shot Selection (modern system "Morey-Ball")

Jokic: 26.8 USG% / .589 TS% / 29.2 FTr / .531 % of FGA at rim or 3PT
Embiid: 32.3 USG% / .593 TS% / 54.1 FTr / .564 % of FGA at rim or 3PT

Vucevic: 27.3 USG% / .573 TS% / 16.8 FTr / .432 % of FGA at rim or 3PT
Bamba: 17.8 USG% / .539 TS% / 25.9 FTr / .638 % of FGA at rim or 3PT
Birch: 14.1 USG% / .640 TS% / 55.0 FTr / .610 % of FGA at rim or 3PT


One of the things that this tells me is that Vooch should shoot the 3 more and shot-fake + drive more.


Totally. He doesn't do it much, mostly because teams seem to prefer the gamble on him taking the 3. But he's had a handful of nice drives off exactly those situations, even in the playoffs.

I see Vuc closer to Gasol than Jokic and Embiid, and that's not a bad thing. He was always wide open on the perimeter but made us pay every time for it with 3's or great passes. Vuc can already give us that. Unfortunately the difference is Gasol is a 4th option for Toronto and Vuc is currently our 1st. He'd need more guys he can throw the ball into if we take him out of the paint. Or Isaac will have to become good at driving from the corners like Siakam is.

I do like Vuc's potential for becoming more of a face up post guy. Some of his strengths is skill, finesse and footwork. So he's got the base to learn a couple new tricks. Nothing too elaborate, just something so he doesn't get pinned whilst trying to post up.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#125 » by pepe1991 » Tue May 14, 2019 11:01 pm

Hard to pumpfake- drive ,especially for C due size, weight and fact that most of Cs don't get shots contested no matter where they shoot them ( outside 15 feet at least ).
in 482 of his total 1354 FGA, closest defender was at least 4 feet away from him .

But that's not unusual, Embiid's 444 of 1199 shots were not contested either.

Horford's 380 FGA out of 723 taken were not contested. That's over 50% of all FGA being open or wide open shots.

Granted, lot of this is FGA are 3 point shots, but not all. In general defense almost always saggs off bigs if they are outside paint. ( That's why on Bamba's thread i said i'm against him working too much on 3 point shot until he improves other areas in his game ...).
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#126 » by MagicMatic » Tue May 14, 2019 11:28 pm

ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
Here we are and our draft picks the last what 6 years have either busted, traded due to impatience or haven't really hit that game changing level. Martins really put us where we are by hiring Henny and muddling into decisions on HC's and roster moves/playoff's now mode.

Oladipo- rushed him then traded for 30cents to push for playoffs and not wanting to spend the $. Had no mentor to help bring him along and show him the ropes. Traded away Jameer Dipo's rookie year because we're a poorly run franchise and wanted to gift opening day spots.

AG -> Role player, BGriffin Lite, starting to show more but never will be that go to guy.

Hezonja- BUST
EP- BUST

Sabonis- Moved for freaking Ibaka because again our FO was in playoff or bust mode and we couldn't have too much youth

JI- showing signs but still ways away, won't ever be a go to guy but can see him as a glue piece for multiple playoff years.

Bamba- TBD


Right. That is how Orlando has utilized their draft picks.
All of those franchises that have been successful have cornerstones to build around. Vuc is obviously not that guy.

Miami is completely in limbo paying for a roster that couldn’t even make the playoffs in the east, and picking only a few spots ahead of Orlando, while trying to remain competitive without a cornerstone. Sounds great... at that point they are hoping to offload some of their mediocre overpaid assets for hopefully better players.

Nobody is saying Orlando won’t continue to try to utilize free agency, the draft, and trades. However, two of those three options won’t be realistic with this current roster and how successful people seem to think it could possibly be. There needs to be a shakeup and Orlando has to find a cornerstone centerpiece to build around. That likely doesn’t happen repeating what Orlando did this year. It’s not that complicated.


ezzzp wrote:That is what relying solely on "gaming the draft" (tanking for odds) does. It puts all the eggs in one basket...and in doing so creates worst developmental context for youth, which comically ARE "all the eggs in that basket."


No. It isn’t. Nobody is talking about losing on purpose but you. Not offering Vuc what he wants as a contract isn’t tanking. You just don’t understand that. That isn’t “gaming the draft” either, get over it.

ezzzp wrote:Miami is NOT in limbo...that is arguably the 3d most desired FA destination market in the NBA. Next summer they have cap room for 2 max salaries (3 if they stretch Johnson and Olynyk or can salary dump them this year). Pat Riley has done this twice already and won championships both times.


Mostly because Lebron, Wade and Bosh decide to play together. Are you sure it’s not also because they aren’t a small market and also attract stars simply because of their demographic/ location? They are in limbo until they can swing for a disgruntled star for their scraps they have currently. Nobody they have is actually valued outside of maybe Richardson and Winslow maybe. No one is dying to play with their roster in free agency.

ezzzp wrote:Also, Orlando not being able to use trades and free agency is just your biased perpetual tanker opinion. One year under this FO coach selection changed the culture to a competitive winning context. This roster improved in one season, more than it had in 6 years of "losing is ok" tanking mentality. Retaining Vucevic will continue to keep that winning context and continue to improve development of all Magic assets...leading to opening up more trade and free agency opportunities.


No, I already stated they will continue to try in those areas despite it likely not being very successful. When is the last time Orlando landed quality free agents? Oh that’s right.. when we had Dwight and we still probably overpaid Shard. You seem to not grasp the idea that there is no “losing mentality”, a GMs job is making that judgement call. If we can’t land a centerpiece, then it’s not a successful strategy.

ezzzp wrote:The FO doesn't have your pov. The Magic FO constructed (or played major role in) assembling both Milwaukee and Toronto rosters currently in ECF...I think I'm going to value their actions and style of building roster over your "tanking is only way to win championship" perspective.


You don’t know what the FO’s pov is other than what they decide to tell the media. Also, I never said tanking is the only way to win. You just have a difficult time accepting people have different opinions than you, but you choose to put words in others mouths. You should try not getting offended by everything you disagree with. I’m not saying Orlando should lose on purpose (aka tanking), I’m saying that a change in strategy and roster is a better route.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#127 » by ezzzp » Wed May 15, 2019 12:28 am

Skin wrote:Sigh... with the tanking... still??? It's getting old. Losing Vuc doesn't mean automatically missing the playoffs.

You seem to admire WeHam. I do as well. Let's see if we can find a common ground. For starters, let's take their opinion on Vuc's FA into account. The fact that they are taking a hard approach to Vuc's FA and will not simply outbid others just to be the winning bid is encouraging for me to hear.

Secondly, they said they used 2018 as their "evaluation year". Immediately following that, they drafted Bamba at 5.

GMs all want success, but they love it even more when it's done through their own player acquisitions.

I do like the way you formatted the layout...

J Isaac...7th pick...drafted by ORL and developed in playoff context 1 of 2 seasons
M Bamba...5th pick...drafted by ORL and developed in playoff context 1 of 1 seasons
M Fultz...1st pick...acquired via trade
W Iwundu...33rd pick...drafted by ORL and developed in playoff context 1 of 2 seasons
K Birch... FA... feel like I need to include him in the core

If things pan out as hoped, that's a pretty impressive haul, imo... might be able to add another key piece at 16.

Debated whether to include Gordon or not. They did resign him, but they didn't acquire him. The contract he signed was designed as an easily tradeable one. He could be traded at some point and I wouldn't be shocked at all. Might be our best way to get a scoring guard.... and it might even happen this summer.


Sigh...again with the semantic nonsense. It got old the minute your uttered it the first time.

Losing Vucevic doesn't mean Magic automatically miss the playoffs, but if you are an experienced NBA fan you know that its way more likely that they free fall to the lottery.

Free agency isn't going to fix that as no decent free agent signs to a team clearly heading to the lottery. Ask Ross, he's already stated that he's going to see what Vucevic does, he's not blinded by anti-Vuc goggles, he knows what it means.

The only thing that replaces those two vital pieces and stops that free fall from happening will be a trade. But its not going to be the Homer deals were Fournier + #16 = Beal. Its going to be way more painful than you want to believe.

Trading Gordon for a guard this summer and not keeping Vucevic makes no sense. If a team is trading that type of player, that guard will definitely be hitting free agency real soon (that summer or next). That means that making it the best winning context possible is of upmost importance to retain that player. Unless its a guy on rookie scale (RFA control) that's a huge risk...but how often do you see a team trade a quality player on a rookie scale?

The gymnastics you do to spin FO's statements and actions into your narrative is quite funny.

WelHam said they would pay market price...duh...what did you want them to say? Do you enter into negotiations announcing that you'll pay higher price than everyone else? Why did you chose to ignore the other part of their statement that said re-signing Vucevic was their #1 offseason priority.

...and LMAO at that totally ridiculous jump you just made trying to connect "evaluation year" with Bamba's selection. They didn't trade Vucevic in the evaluation year trade deadline, they didn't trade him in the off-season AND they didn't trade him at this trade deadline, how does that fit into your "evaluation year" theory?
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#128 » by ezzzp » Wed May 15, 2019 1:31 am

MagicMatic wrote: No. It isn’t. Nobody is talking about losing on purpose but you. Not offering Vuc what he wants as a contract isn’t tanking. You just don’t understand that. That isn’t “gaming the draft” either, get over it.


Yet you just said that drafting in 15 -18 range won't land you a centerpiece...and you also just said that even if AG and Isaacs value was increased, teams weren’t going to give away their elite scorers...and you said that the Magic won't land free agents without a centerpiece in place.

So if trade and free agency aren't options for acquiring that centerpiece, and drafting in mid lottery won't either, then what are you talking about? the 2nd Round? Sure sounds like you are talking about the high lottery. How do you think a team gets a draft pick in high lottery? FYI, its called losing a lot.


MagicMatic wrote: Mostly because Lebron, Wade and Bosh decide to play together. Are you sure it’s not also because they aren’t a small market and also attract stars simply because of their demographic/ location? They are in limbo until they can swing for a disgruntled star for their scraps they have currently. Nobody they have is actually valued outside of maybe Richardson and Winslow maybe. No one is dying to play with their roster in free agency.


Uh I just stated Miami is arguably top 3 free agent destination market, there are numerous reasons why. That is EXACTLY why I said they are not in limbo. They have 2-3 max slots open next summer. For a major free agent destinations, one with HOF GM and highly respected culture, that's exactly why they've been able to construct TWO championship rosters from scratch. Riley is in the process of laying groundwork for filling those 2-3 max slots...that is not limbo.


MagicMatic wrote: No, I already stated they will continue to try in those areas despite it likely not being very successful. When is the last time Orlando landed quality free agents? Oh that’s right.. when we had Dwight and we still probably overpaid Shard. You seem to not grasp the idea that there is no “losing mentality”, a GMs job is making that judgement call. If we can’t land a centerpiece, then it’s not a successful strategy.


The reason that free agency hasn't been an option for Orlando IS because of the tanking philosophy and its consequences. You seem to not grasp that idea that there absolutely is such a thing as a losing culture.

MagicMatic wrote: You don’t know what the FO’s pov is other than what they decide to tell the media. Also, I never said tanking is the only way to win. You just have a difficult time accepting people have different opinions than you and choose to put words in others mouths. You should try not getting offended by everything you disagree with. I’m not saying Orlando should lose on purpose (aka tanking), I’m saying that a change in strategy and roster is a better route.


I have their track record with Milwaukee and Toronto, and their actions with the Magic...plus what they say to the public.

You are saying tanking isn't way, but have also said that Magic can't do it with drafting in middle, and can't do it with free agency or trades. Then what are you talking about? Is there some other new way of acquiring talent that no one knows about? LMAO

I enjoy debating basketball...you are the one that sounds all flustered because your hot takes are getting questioned on a discussion forum.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#129 » by MagicMatic » Wed May 15, 2019 2:38 am

ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote: No. It isn’t. Nobody is talking about losing on purpose but you. Not offering Vuc what he wants as a contract isn’t tanking. You just don’t understand that. That isn’t “gaming the draft” either, get over it.


ezzzp wrote:Yet you just said that drafting in 15 -18 range won't land you a centerpiece...and you also just said that even if AG and Isaacs value was increased, teams weren’t going to give away their elite scorers...and you said that the Magic won't land free agents without a centerpiece in place.

So if trade and free agency aren't options for acquiring that centerpiece, and drafting in mid lottery won't either, then what are you talking about? the 2nd Round? Sure sounds like you are talking about the high lottery. How do you think a team gets a draft pick in high lottery? FYI, its called losing a lot.


Losing because of a flawed roster isn’t tanking. WeHam inherited Hennigans roster and chose not to make significant changes outside of drafting Isaac, ditching Elfrid, and retaining AG. That’s what you don’t understand. Orlando isnt benching players for phantom injuries and playing their bench 90% of a game. That’s not the equivalent to not resigning Vuc because they don’t want to overpay him. That’s the difference. People like you throw around the word “tanking” when it doesn’t fit your narrative to losing in the first round every season. It’s choosing a different direction. You have NO IDEA what the result would be, but you assume it’s losing because Vuc is all you’ve known for 7 terrible seasons.

MagicMatic wrote: Mostly because Lebron, Wade and Bosh decide to play together. Are you sure it’s not also because they aren’t a small market and also attract stars simply because of their demographic/ location? They are in limbo until they can swing for a disgruntled star for their scraps they have currently. Nobody they have is actually valued outside of maybe Richardson and Winslow maybe. No one is dying to play with their roster in free agency.


ezzzp wrote:Uh I just stated Miami is arguably top 3 free agent destination market, there are numerous reasons why. That is EXACTLY why I said they are not in limbo. They have 2-3 max slots open next summer. For a major free agent destinations, one with HOF GM and highly respected culture, that's exactly why they've been able to construct TWO championship rosters from scratch. Riley is in the process of laying groundwork for filling those 2-3 max slots...that is not limbo.


Yeah, Orlando isn’t Miami so leaning into “trying to remain competitive” without a star and mediocre players isn’t ideal. That’s the point. You are the one that used Miami as an example.

MagicMatic wrote: No, I already stated they will continue to try in those areas despite it likely not being very successful. When is the last time Orlando landed quality free agents? Oh that’s right.. when we had Dwight and we still probably overpaid Shard. You seem to not grasp the idea that there is no “losing mentality”, a GMs job is making that judgement call. If we can’t land a centerpiece, then it’s not a successful strategy.


ezzzp wrote:The reason that free agency hasn't been an option for Orlando IS because of the tanking philosophy and its consequences. You seem to not grasp that idea that there absolutely is such a thing as a losing culture.


You don’t know what tanking is, so coming from you this means nothing.

MagicMatic wrote: You don’t know what the FO’s pov is other than what they decide to tell the media. Also, I never said tanking is the only way to win. You just have a difficult time accepting people have different opinions than you and choose to put words in others mouths. You should try not getting offended by everything you disagree with. I’m not saying Orlando should lose on purpose (aka tanking), I’m saying that a change in strategy and roster is a better route.


ezzzp wrote:I have their track record with Milwaukee and Toronto, and their actions with the Magic...plus what they say to the public.

You are saying tanking isn't way, but have also said that Magic can't do it with drafting in middle, and can't do it with free agency or trades. Then what are you talking about? Is there some other new way of acquiring talent that no one knows about? LMAO


I enjoy debating basketball...you are the one that sounds all flustered because your hot takes are getting questioned on a discussion forum.


Going in a different direction. I’ve stated it many times now. You aren’t “debating basketball” you are trying to justify an opinion that I’ve stated I won’t agree with 100%. Wanting the franchise to go in a different direction, for the first time in 7 years, and actually try to acquire elite talent isn’t a “hot take”.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#130 » by Catledge » Wed May 15, 2019 2:38 am

pepe1991 wrote:Hard to pumpfake- drive ,especially for C due size, weight and fact that most of Cs don't get shots contested no matter where they shoot them ( outside 15 feet at least ).
in 482 of his total 1354 FGA, closest defender was at least 4 feet away from him .

But that's not unusual, Embiid's 444 of 1199 shots were not contested either.

Horford's 380 FGA out of 723 taken were not contested. That's over 50% of all FGA being open or wide open shots.

Granted, lot of this is FGA are 3 point shots, but not all. In general defense almost always saggs off bigs if they are outside paint. ( That's why on Bamba's thread i said i'm against him working too much on 3 point shot until he improves other areas in his game ...).


Yes, the fact that it is often uncontested is why I want Vooch to shoot the three more. He gets an open look at it early in the offense when he catches up high and moves the ball from one side or the other. I'd like him to take that shot instead of moving the ball. It's a more efficient shot than what we tend to get, and it forces the defending center to step up and leave space in the lane for drives by him and cutting teammates.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#131 » by Def Swami » Wed May 15, 2019 3:07 am

It will be very difficulty for the Magic to make it back to .500 basketball if they were to not re-sign Vucevic, for at least next season. Given the Vucevic's on/off net rating, the Magic played like a 25-30 win team in the minutes without Vucevic.

There isn't a single player on the Magic who has showed any evidence of carrying an offense the way Vucevic did this season. Replacing that offensive production in any potential free agency signings just isn't realistic given how little space we have to play with (Weltman has mentioned this already). Maybe the Magic make some trades with other assets to shore up other weaknesses, but why let Vucevic walk if you can do that?

It's fine to want to let Vucevic walk if you believe the team shouldn't commit a long term deal to a center in guard's league. But we have to acknowledge that for next season, replacing all of those win shares is going to be difficult and unlikely. Maybe the following year, with some internal development, more cap space opening, and maybe a trade or two, then they can position themselves in a positive direction. Or maybe they get lucky in the lottery and change their fortunes for the following season. But for the 2019-2020 season, I don't see the path back to .500 without Vucevic.

And that's fine if you're willing to take a step backward to be better in the long run. There's definitely merit to that plan. I'm fully prepared for it if Vucevic chooses to walk.

I don't believe Weltman or Hammond or Clifford would ever endorse tanking in the Process sense of the word. I could see the team without Vucevic still scrapping, but the dearth of offensive talent will definitely limit their ceiling.

I personally think retaining the asset is the preferable strategy. Vucevic under a fair contract is more valuable to us than cap space. The last time we had cap space we spent it on Jeff Green, Bismack Biyombo, and DJ Augustin (cap space opened up by squandering another asset in Tobias Harris; still one of the worst trades in the franchises history).

I also won't be super bummed if Vucevic were to leave. We'll probably be worse, and I actually would endorse tanking if we're not going to play for the playoffs. There are multiple paths to get to where we want to go. Having Bamba gives us the flexibility to pivot.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#132 » by OrlandO » Wed May 15, 2019 3:10 am

Catledge wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Hard to pumpfake- drive ,especially for C due size, weight and fact that most of Cs don't get shots contested no matter where they shoot them ( outside 15 feet at least ).
in 482 of his total 1354 FGA, closest defender was at least 4 feet away from him .

But that's not unusual, Embiid's 444 of 1199 shots were not contested either.

Horford's 380 FGA out of 723 taken were not contested. That's over 50% of all FGA being open or wide open shots.

Granted, lot of this is FGA are 3 point shots, but not all. In general defense almost always saggs off bigs if they are outside paint. ( That's why on Bamba's thread i said i'm against him working too much on 3 point shot until he improves other areas in his game ...).


Yes, the fact that it is often uncontested is why I want Vooch to shoot the three more. He gets an open look at it early in the offense when he catches up high and moves the ball from one side or the other. I'd like him to take that shot instead of moving the ball. It's a more efficient shot than what we tend to get, and it forces the defending center to step up and leave space in the lane for drives by him and cutting teammates.

I forgot if it was vuc or clifford, but I believe around march one of them said vuc is planning to focus more on threes this summer so he can increase volume.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#133 » by ezzzp » Wed May 15, 2019 4:33 am

MagicMatic wrote: Losing because of a flawed roster isn’t tanking. WeHam inherited Hennigans roster and chose not to make significant changes outside of drafting Isaac, ditching Elfrid, and retaining AG. That’s what you don’t understand. Orlando isnt benching players for phantom injuries and playing their bench 90% of a game.


Actually it wasn’t a flawed roster- it was an injury plagued one. After that trade deadline, there were definitely some "tank-like” lineups...but the season was lost and injuries continued.

Clifford just knew how to utilize it + had good health.




MagicMatic wrote:That’s not the equivalent to not resigning Vuc because they don’t want to overpay him. That’s the difference. People like you throw around the word “tanking” when it doesn’t fit your narrative to losing in the first round every season. It’s choosing a different direction. You have NO IDEA what the result would be, but you assume it’s losing because Vuc is all you’ve known for 7 terrible seasons.


You can't even admit you're a tanker. :lol: your own words keep unmasking you.

What you don't seem to understand is that if you lose your best player, and because of that you also more than likely lose your second best player - and don't replace it with new players that replicate it, there is going to be a drop off. You can call it whatever you want.

Exactly how are you replacing the fundamental player that made the offensive inside/out system work? Nobody on the roster can replicate that. Who is going to be the player that creates the paint touches in Clifford's system - who's his new Kemba / Vucevic?

Guess what, you also have NO IDEA what the result will be, but you are convincing yourself that it won't be losing because of your anti-Vucevic bias.

MagicMatic wrote:Yeah, Orlando isn’t Miami so leaning into “trying to remain competitive” without a star and mediocre players isn’t ideal. That’s the point. You are the one that used Miami as an example.


These are my words: "Its not flawed logic...its the ideology of the best developmental franchises in the NBA: Spurs, Utah, Boston, Milwaukee, Denver, Toronto, Miami etc.."

You were the one that got specific with Miami and responded with: "Miami is completely in limbo..."

I merely showed you why your take was off.

...and Orlando is a similar type/size market to Utah, Milwaukee, Denver etc...plus that point was about how the best franchises at young player development do it.

MagicMatic wrote:You don’t know what tanking is, so coming from you this means nothing.


You're barking up the wrong tree, I've done a lot of research on tanking (stat/salary cap/fiscal effects etc)...which is why I am against it. Maybe its time you started doing the same.

MagicMatic wrote: Going in a different direction. I’ve stated it many times now. You aren’t “debating basketball” you are trying to justify an opinion that I’ve stated I won’t agree with 100%. Wanting the franchise to go in a different direction, for the first time in 7 years, and actually try to acquire elite talent isn’t a “hot take”.


FYI, the franchise IS going in a different direction and has been since new FO started.

You've ruled out trades, free agency and non lottery picks as a way of improving but won't own up to tanking :lol: You don't sound like you even know what you want. I do and am defending that point of view.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#134 » by ezzzp » Wed May 15, 2019 4:37 am

OrlandO wrote:
Catledge wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Hard to pumpfake- drive ,especially for C due size, weight and fact that most of Cs don't get shots contested no matter where they shoot them ( outside 15 feet at least ).
in 482 of his total 1354 FGA, closest defender was at least 4 feet away from him .

But that's not unusual, Embiid's 444 of 1199 shots were not contested either.

Horford's 380 FGA out of 723 taken were not contested. That's over 50% of all FGA being open or wide open shots.

Granted, lot of this is FGA are 3 point shots, but not all. In general defense almost always saggs off bigs if they are outside paint. ( That's why on Bamba's thread i said i'm against him working too much on 3 point shot until he improves other areas in his game ...).


Yes, the fact that it is often uncontested is why I want Vooch to shoot the three more. He gets an open look at it early in the offense when he catches up high and moves the ball from one side or the other. I'd like him to take that shot instead of moving the ball. It's a more efficient shot than what we tend to get, and it forces the defending center to step up and leave space in the lane for drives by him and cutting teammates.

I forgot if it was vuc or clifford, but I believe around march one of them said vuc is planning to focus more on threes this summer so he can increase volume.


Both of them said it. Clifford said that he needs to be shooting +6 attempts a game...and Vucevic that 3's were going to be a key focus of his offseason improvement.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#135 » by MagicMatic » Wed May 15, 2019 7:37 am

ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote: Losing because of a flawed roster isn’t tanking. WeHam inherited Hennigans roster and chose not to make significant changes outside of drafting Isaac, ditching Elfrid, and retaining AG. That’s what you don’t understand. Orlando isnt benching players for phantom injuries and playing their bench 90% of a game.


ezzzp wrote:Actually it wasn’t a flawed roster- it was an injury plagued one. After that trade deadline, there were definitely some "tank-like” lineups...but the season was lost and injuries continued.

Clifford just knew how to utilize it + had good health.



LOL

MagicMatic wrote:That’s not the equivalent to not resigning Vuc because they don’t want to overpay him. That’s the difference. People like you throw around the word “tanking” when it doesn’t fit your narrative to losing in the first round every season. It’s choosing a different direction. You have NO IDEA what the result would be, but you assume it’s losing because Vuc is all you’ve known for 7 terrible seasons.


ezzzp wrote:You can't even admit you're a tanker. :lol: your own words keep unmasking you.

What you don't seem to understand is that if you lose your best player, and because of that you also more than likely lose your second best player - and don't replace it with new players that replicate it, there is going to be a drop off. You can call it whatever you want.


Sure. Keep thinking that’s the only outcome.

ezzzp wrote:Exactly how are you replacing the fundamental player that made the offensive inside/out system work? Nobody on the roster can replicate that. Who is going to be the player that creates the paint touches in Clifford's system - who's his new Kemba / Vucevic?

Guess what, you also have NO IDEA what the result will be, but you are convincing yourself that it won't be losing because of your anti-Vucevic bias.


LOL. Again, you don’t know. Purely a guess at an outcome.

MagicMatic wrote:Yeah, Orlando isn’t Miami so leaning into “trying to remain competitive” without a star and mediocre players isn’t ideal. That’s the point. You are the one that used Miami as an example.


ezzzp wrote:These are my words: "Its not flawed logic...its the ideology of the best developmental franchises in the NBA: Spurs, Utah, Boston, Milwaukee, Denver, Toronto, Miami etc.."

You were the one that got specific with Miami and responded with: "Miami is completely in limbo..."

I merely showed you why your take was off.


They missed on Hayward who would rather be a second fiddle in Boston than with Miami. It’s not wrong. They aren’t going anywhere with that roster.


MagicMatic wrote:You don’t know what tanking is, so coming from you this means nothing.


ezzzp wrote:You're barking up the wrong tree, I've done a lot of research on tanking (stat/salary cap/fiscal effects etc)...which is why I am against it. Maybe its time you started doing the same.


Lol. K.

MagicMatic wrote: Going in a different direction. I’ve stated it many times now. You aren’t “debating basketball” you are trying to justify an opinion that I’ve stated I won’t agree with 100%. Wanting the franchise to go in a different direction, for the first time in 7 years, and actually try to acquire elite talent isn’t a “hot take”.


ezzzp wrote:FYI, the franchise IS going in a different direction and has been since new FO started.

You've ruled out trades, free agency and non lottery picks as a way of improving but won't own up to tanking :lol: You don't sound like you even know what you want. I do and am defending that point of view.


No reason to explain for the hundredth time. You either get it or don’t. Choose to be a homer and refuse to accept the realities of how the nba works. Fine by me. Go gauge Vucevic’s value on the general board you if you feel so confident. I’m sure you’ll find good “nba debate” there. :wink: That is after you get laughed off...
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#136 » by pepe1991 » Wed May 15, 2019 9:49 am

This lottery results are litearlly THE reason why you can't rely on lottery any more to build your team.

Pelicans with 6th worst record won lottery.
Memphis with 7th worst record drafting 2#

Suns with second worst record draft 6th
Hawks with 5th worst record draft 7th
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#137 » by MagicMatic » Wed May 15, 2019 2:40 pm

Def Swami wrote:It will be very difficulty for the Magic to make it back to .500 basketball if they were to not re-sign Vucevic, for at least next season. Given the Vucevic's on/off net rating, the Magic played like a 25-30 win team in the minutes without Vucevic.

There isn't a single player on the Magic who has showed any evidence of carrying an offense the way Vucevic did this season. Replacing that offensive production in any potential free agency signings just isn't realistic given how little space we have to play with (Weltman has mentioned this already). Maybe the Magic make some trades with other assets to shore up other weaknesses, but why let Vucevic walk if you can do that?

It's fine to want to let Vucevic walk if you believe the team shouldn't commit a long term deal to a center in guard's league. But we have to acknowledge that for next season, replacing all of those win shares is going to be difficult and unlikely. Maybe the following year, with some internal development, more cap space opening, and maybe a trade or two, then they can position themselves in a positive direction. Or maybe they get lucky in the lottery and change their fortunes for the following season. But for the 2019-2020 season, I don't see the path back to .500 without Vucevic.

And that's fine if you're willing to take a step backward to be better in the long run. There's definitely merit to that plan. I'm fully prepared for it if Vucevic chooses to walk.

I don't believe Weltman or Hammond or Clifford would ever endorse tanking in the Process sense of the word. I could see the team without Vucevic still scrapping, but the dearth of offensive talent will definitely limit their ceiling.

I personally think retaining the asset is the preferable strategy. Vucevic under a fair contract is more valuable to us than cap space. The last time we had cap space we spent it on Jeff Green, Bismack Biyombo, and DJ Augustin (cap space opened up by squandering another asset in Tobias Harris; still one of the worst trades in the franchises history).

I also won't be super bummed if Vucevic were to leave. We'll probably be worse, and I actually would endorse tanking if we're not going to play for the playoffs. There are multiple paths to get to where we want to go. Having Bamba gives us the flexibility to pivot.


Would it be difficult? Yes. Is it impossible? No.

Yes, there is currently no player that will completely replace Vuc’s production at face value. However, we also haven’t seen how a team, without Vuc, could be implemented offensively. That comes down to Clifford working with what he has available.

WeHam just drafted Bamba, and yes retaining Vuc as an asset is better to keep value for a later trade. The flip side of that argument is “What does that value even look like for a 29 year old Center on a 3-4 year deal at X$?” and is that really worth it? Both of those questions come down to what the market is on Vuc and what his contract looks like.

People are terrified of losing Vuc why? Because Orlando needs his production that we as fans have come to expect with varying results for 7 years? These are the consequences of not making moves and fielding the same, give or take, roster Hennigan was canned for rolling out. Moments like this where the FO will feel the need to retain an asset they were likely going to replace (see Bamba) and now forced to make a tough call. It’s being reactive to having to make decisions instead of proactively building something sustainable themselves.

It’s funny, I won’t be mad if they resign Vuc unless it’s for a crazy amount that makes his contract difficult to move. In another situation I would be extremely pro Vuc because he’s a hard worker and seems to genuinely care. It’ll just be more boring basketball for Magic fans to endure for greater part of a decade. Not necessarily bad, but also not interesting or good enough to care from a casual fan perspective.

I just don’t agree with the notion that we should at all costs try to make a roster work that is inherently flawed, unsustainable, and difficult to greatly improve. I do appreciate that you can see both sides to the argument.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#138 » by BadMofoPimp » Wed May 15, 2019 3:39 pm

The premise is about accumulating assets and not letting them walk away for free. At the right price, Vooch will be a valuable asset.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#139 » by MoMM » Wed May 15, 2019 4:43 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
MoMM wrote:

This article is from one year ago, if we go under the cap (renounce Vuc), I believe we wouldn't be able to use LLE or MLE.


You can use MLE once every two years, so Magic didn't use one last year, witch means they can this year

The bi-annual exception is only available to teams that over the cap and under the tax apron. It can also only be used once every two years, which will disqualify the Bucks, Pelicans, Knicks, and Spurs from using it in 2019/20 — they all used their BAE in 2018/19.

IIRC, the bi-annual exception is the LLE, MLE is another thing.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#140 » by npiper17 » Wed May 15, 2019 4:48 pm

It’s about contract length rather than money for me. Anything longer than 3 years (with the third year being a team option) would be difficult if they see Bamba as the future.

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