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What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic?

Moderators: UCF, UCFJayBird, ChosenSavior, Howard Mass, Knightro, SOUL, Def Swami

I wouldn't pay Vuc anything more than $ ___ Million per year on his next 4 year contract.

$30M
3
4%
$29M
0
No votes
$28M
1
1%
$27M
4
6%
$26M
1
1%
$25M
18
25%
$24M
10
14%
$23M
5
7%
$22M
11
15%
$21M
19
26%
 
Total votes: 72

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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#141 » by ezzzp » Wed May 15, 2019 6:29 pm

MagicMatic wrote:LOL


What's LOL is how you ignore facts.

• Games missed by main rotation players prior to the all-star break (first 56 games):

PG: Payton (9) / Augustin (7)
SG: Ross (36) / Simmons (0)
SF: Fournier (8)
PF: Gordon (18) / Isaac (42)
C: Vucevic (23) / Biyombo (0)

Six of the 9 man rotation all missed significant time including ALL 5 starters missed big chunks of crucial part of season.


MagicMatic wrote:Sure. Keep thinking that’s the only outcome.


I'm not the only one, Ross addressing his free agency said he's going to see what happens with Vucevic. He knows what the most likely outcome is.

MagicMatic wrote:LOL. Again, you don’t know. Purely a guess at an outcome.


Thinking that a 42 win small market team that just lost its #1 and #2 options will regress to the lottery is more than just a random uneducated guess. But keep telling yourself that it is.

MagicMatic wrote:They missed on Hayward who would rather be a second fiddle in Boston than with Miami. It’s not wrong. They aren’t going anywhere with that roster.


We'll see next summer when they have 2-3 max salary slots. I'm going to guess that the HOF GM with one of the most desirable free agent destinations in NBA who has used this same strategy to build a championship team TWICE will do just fine.


MagicMatic wrote:Lol. K.


What's the matter, are you too scared to engage in real discussion with actual substance?

MagicMatic wrote: No reason to explain for the hundredth time. You either get it or don’t. Choose to be a homer and refuse to accept the realities of how the nba works. Fine by me. Go gauge Vucevic’s value on the general board you if you feel so confident. I’m sure you’ll find good “nba debate” there. :wink: That is after you get laughed off...


...and for the hundredth time NBA coaches and GM's disagree with your hot take...they made Vucevic an All-Star and constantly praise him and prove it as their teams game plan for him. I think I'll trust them over your silly bias...and LMAO that you have to ask the general board for help. If his value is so low that I'll get laughed at, then why are you crying about him getting a big contract? :lol:
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#142 » by Skin » Wed May 15, 2019 7:36 pm

pepe1991 wrote:This lottery results are litearlly THE reason why you can't rely on lottery any more to build your team.

Pelicans with 6th worst record won lottery.
Memphis with 7th worst record drafting 2#

Suns with second worst record draft 6th
Hawks with 5th worst record draft 7th

Nobody has been encouraging a full tank since the NBA made those changes to the lottery. What I and others are saying... which you can't seem to get... is that you don't have to tank to get a good chance at a high pick... and when you combine that with the Magic's refusal to engage in a proper tank in the past... it's actually aligned perfectly for a team like ours. We don't have to be frustrated about not fully tanking, because we could still get nice odds at a good pick. It's actually nice for fans to not have to cheer for a full on tank.

I feel like if this system was in place during our early rebuild years, we would have been stacked by now... and our odds would've been better.

You and ezzzp are somehow stuck on this idea that if we're not a playoff team then we will be aiming ourselves to be in position to tank to the bottom of the league. We've NEVER aimed to be at the bottom. If anything, we've always resisted... winning meaningless games at the end of the year, etc.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#143 » by pepe1991 » Wed May 15, 2019 7:55 pm

Skin wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:This lottery results are litearlly THE reason why you can't rely on lottery any more to build your team.

Pelicans with 6th worst record won lottery.
Memphis with 7th worst record drafting 2#

Suns with second worst record draft 6th
Hawks with 5th worst record draft 7th

Nobody has been encouraging a full tank since the NBA made those changes to the lottery. What I and others are saying... which you can't seem to get... is that you don't have to tank to get a good chance at a high pick... and when you combine that with the Magic's refusal to engage in a proper tank in the past... it's actually aligned perfectly for a team like ours. We don't have to be frustrated about not fully tanking, because we could still get nice odds at a good pick. It's actually nice for fans to not have to cheer for a full on tank.

I feel like if this system was in place during our early rebuild years, we would have been stacked by now... and our odds would've been better.

You and ezzzp are somehow stuck on this idea that if we're not a playoff team then we will be aiming ourselves to be in position to tank to the bottom of the league. We've NEVER aimed to be at the bottom. If anything, we've always resisted... winning meaningless games at the end of the year, etc.


What I and others are saying... which you can't seem to get... is that you don't have to tank to get a good chance at a high pick.

You also can be 7th worst team and draft 9# so it's not like you are set to be in top 3 if you just show up enough times.
Ofc you can, like Lakers, with 11 worst record draft 4th, but you can also with 10th worst record draft 11# like it happend to Minny, or tank hard whole year like Suns just to draft 6#, while having second worst record in NBA.

So whole point of "being there because you might win" turns into reality for only 1 or 2 teams at most, for everybody else ( Wizards,Bulls, Hawks, Suns, Cavs, Minny, Hornets, Heat, Celtics (via Kings) ) it's just another year where they striked out top 3 talent, on 3 men deep draft.
Could somebody pop out and be amazing from 4-14? Sure. But same could be said for 16# pick where Magic draft.

You and ezzzp are somehow stuck on this idea that if we're not a playoff team then we will be aiming ourselves to be in position to tank to the bottom of the league. We've NEVER aimed to be at the bottom. If anything, we've always resisted... winning meaningless games at the end of the year, etc.

This is false.
Magic in 2012-13 finished with THE WORST record in whole league.
Magic in 2013-14 had THIRD WORST record in nba .
Magic in 2014-15 had 5th worst record ( and that season was outliner because 4 teams with worst record , didn't reach 20 wins, that usually does not happen ).
Magic in 2016-17 had 5th worst record.

So in 3 years in a row team had top 5 worst record with once being the worst. That's definition of hard tanking. Now, tanking hard for draft that sucks, being unlucky with picks , rushing decisions and trades is another issue, but Magic did tank hard and did aim for bottom. As i said, they were the bottom in 2012-13 ,but some years you get Lebron , Jordan, Hakeem... and some years you get Oladipo, Fultz and Wiggins.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#144 » by Skin » Wed May 15, 2019 8:19 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Skin wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:This lottery results are litearlly THE reason why you can't rely on lottery any more to build your team.

Pelicans with 6th worst record won lottery.
Memphis with 7th worst record drafting 2#

Suns with second worst record draft 6th
Hawks with 5th worst record draft 7th

Nobody has been encouraging a full tank since the NBA made those changes to the lottery. What I and others are saying... which you can't seem to get... is that you don't have to tank to get a good chance at a high pick... and when you combine that with the Magic's refusal to engage in a proper tank in the past... it's actually aligned perfectly for a team like ours. We don't have to be frustrated about not fully tanking, because we could still get nice odds at a good pick. It's actually nice for fans to not have to cheer for a full on tank.

I feel like if this system was in place during our early rebuild years, we would have been stacked by now... and our odds would've been better.

You and ezzzp are somehow stuck on this idea that if we're not a playoff team then we will be aiming ourselves to be in position to tank to the bottom of the league. We've NEVER aimed to be at the bottom. If anything, we've always resisted... winning meaningless games at the end of the year, etc.


What I and others are saying... which you can't seem to get... is that you don't have to tank to get a good chance at a high pick.

You also can be 7th worst team and draft 9# so it's not like you are set to be in top 3 if you just show up enough times.
Ofc you can, like Lakers, with 11 worst record draft 4th, but you can also with 10th worst record draft 11# like it happend to Minny, or tank hard whole year like Suns just to draft 6#, while having second worst record in NBA.

So whole point of "being there because you might win" turns into reality for only 1 or 2 teams at most, for everybody else ( Wizards,Bulls, Hawks, Suns, Cavs, Minny, Hornets, Heat, Celtics (via Kings) ) it's just another year where they striked out top 3 talent, on 3 men deep draft.
Could somebody pop out and be amazing from 4-14? Sure. But same could be said for 16# pick where Magic draft.

You and ezzzp are somehow stuck on this idea that if we're not a playoff team then we will be aiming ourselves to be in position to tank to the bottom of the league. We've NEVER aimed to be at the bottom. If anything, we've always resisted... winning meaningless games at the end of the year, etc.

This is false.
Magic in 2012-13 finished with THE WORST record in whole league.
Magic in 2013-14 had THIRD WORST record in nba .
Magic in 2014-15 had 5th worst record ( and that season was outliner because 4 teams with worst record , didn't reach 20 wins, that usually does not happen ).
Magic in 2016-17 had 5th worst record.

So in 3 years in a row team had top 5 worst record with once being the worst. That's definition of hard tanking. Now, tanking hard for draft that sucks, being unlucky with picks , rushing decisions and trades is another issue, but Magic did tank hard and did aim for bottom. As i said, they were the bottom in 2012-13 ,but some years you get Lebron , Jordan, Hakeem... and some years you get Oladipo, Fultz and Wiggins.

Agreed on the draft talk.. up to the point where you try to say the 16th pick could be just as good as the 4th pick.

Magic tank in the first year was true. After that, it was poorly executed. We were definitely bad, but not bad enough. 1 or 2 games could've been the difference. They did not aim for bottom. That's why they hired Skiles 3 years post the Dwightmare.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#145 » by ezzzp » Wed May 15, 2019 10:59 pm

Skin wrote:You and ezzzp are somehow stuck on this idea that if we're not a playoff team then we will be aiming ourselves to be in position to tank to the bottom of the league. We've NEVER aimed to be at the bottom. If anything, we've always resisted... winning meaningless games at the end of the year, etc.


First of all, your statement is totally misrepresenting what I've stated.

I've said that the competitive (meaningful game) context created by playoff runs is the best situation for player development. That's the philosophy of the BEST player development franchises, not mine. If you want to disagree with the best and most proven minds in the NBA on player development...that's on you.

If the Magic aren't a playoff team, then they are a lottery team. That is not my concept, it is a fact of the NBA.

Also, the Magic FO absolutely tried hard to tank in 12-13, 13-14 and 14-15 seasons. Players don't tank, FO's do. The FO assembled rosters built to tank (lots of youth and crap vets) and inserted a puppet coach (J Vaughn).

• In 2013 draft, the Magic had won 20 games and had the worst record in the NBA.

They got jumped by Cleveland, who moved up 2 spots and drafted Anthony Bennett. The Magic ended up with the 2nd pick (Victor Oladipo). The only franchise changer in the draft was Giannis Antetuokumpo who was picked 15th. DPOY Rudy Gobert was picked 27th and CJ McCollum was picked 10th.

• In 2014 draft, the Magic had won 23 games and had the 3d worst record.

Cleveland again jumped 8 spots to #1 and drafted A Wiggins. That pushed Milwaukee to #2 (J Parker), Philadelphia to #3 (J Embiid), and Orlando to #4 (A Gordon). The only franchise changers in that draft were Nikola Jokic who was picked 41st; and the constantly injured and major injury risk Joel Embiid.

• In the 2015 draft, the Magic had won 25 games and had 5th worst record.

A little improvement of the young roster was inevitable...regardless of how hard Hennigan tried to stop it by filling out the roster with garbage vets. Is that really surprising to you? Did you really expect Oladipo (22), Vucevic (24), Harris (22), Fournier (22), Harkless (20), Payton (20), and Gordon (19) to all play worse the more experience they got?

It wasn't until the 2015-16 season that the FO changed direction by firing Vaughn. Hennigan's reason for it at the press conference was that "he didn't feel the young players were improving enough and that team chemistry was not what he hoped." LMAO duh, tanking is worst context for player and team development.

About the same time, it was reported that Rich DeVos' health had begun to rapidly declining health. Brian Schmitz later reported that this played a big role in the acceleration.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#146 » by Skin » Wed May 15, 2019 11:26 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:You and ezzzp are somehow stuck on this idea that if we're not a playoff team then we will be aiming ourselves to be in position to tank to the bottom of the league. We've NEVER aimed to be at the bottom. If anything, we've always resisted... winning meaningless games at the end of the year, etc.


First of all, your statement is totally misrepresenting what I've stated.

I've said that the competitive (meaningful game) context created by playoff runs is the best situation for player development. That's the philosophy of the BEST player development franchises, not mine. If you want to disagree with the best and most proven minds in the NBA on player development...that's on you.

If the Magic aren't a playoff team, then they are a lottery team. That is not my concept, it is a fact of the NBA.

Also, the Magic FO absolutely tried hard to tank in 12-13, 13-14 and 14-15 seasons. Players don't tank, FO's do. The FO assembled rosters built to tank (lots of youth and crap vets) and inserted a puppet coach (J Vaughn).

• In 2013 draft, the Magic had won 20 games and had the worst record in the NBA.

They got jumped by Cleveland, who moved up 2 spots and drafted Anthony Bennett. The Magic ended up with the 2nd pick (Victor Oladipo). The only franchise changer in the draft was Giannis Antetuokumpo who was picked 15th. DPOY Rudy Gobert was picked 27th and CJ McCollum was picked 10th.

• In 2014 draft, the Magic had won 23 games and had the 3d worst record.

Cleveland again jumped 8 spots to #1 and drafted A Wiggins. That pushed Milwaukee to #2 (J Parker), Philadelphia to #3 (J Embiid), and Orlando to #4 (A Gordon). The only franchise changers in that draft were Nikola Jokic who was picked 41st; and the constantly injured and major injury risk Joel Embiid.

• In the 2015 draft, the Magic had won 25 games and had 5th worst record.

A little improvement of the young roster was inevitable...regardless of how hard Hennigan tried to stop it by filling out the roster with garbage vets. Is that really surprising to you? Did you really expect Oladipo (22), Vucevic (24), Harris (22), Fournier (22), Harkless (20), Payton (20), and Gordon (19) to all play worse the more experience they got?

It wasn't until the 2015-16 season that the FO changed direction by firing Vaughn. Hennigan's reason for it at the press conference was that "he didn't feel the young players were improving enough and that team chemistry was not what he hoped." LMAO duh, tanking is worst context for player and team development.

About the same time, it was reported that Rich DeVos' health had begun to rapidly declining health. Brian Schmitz later reported that this played a big role in the acceleration.

Nice, so pretty much you agree with me... that the Magic resisted a true tank because Devos wanted to win before he died.

I have no problems with the way we started out. It only got frustrating when we ended up with Hezonja and the Magic decided to hire Skiles in order to make the playoffs.

I also have no issues staying competitive and keep trying to make the playoffs. This whole tank talk is derived from YOU who think that's our one and only direction if we let go of Vuc. That's simply not the case. There are a lot of different options the team can go to for sustainability or improvement.

I'll say this about staying "competitive context"... It means A LOT more to the players getting meaningful playing time than it does to those sitting on the bench. ie. T-Ross helping us get to the playoffs and getting PT in Round 1 does a lot less for our future than Isaac helping us get to the playoffs and getting PT in Round 1.

Answer me this: If we resign Vuc (and Bamba progresses correctly) in what year would you project Bamba to become the starter?
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#147 » by ezzzp » Thu May 16, 2019 12:23 am

Skin wrote:Nice, so pretty much you agree with me... that the Magic resisted a true tank because Devos wanted to win before he died.

I have no problems with the way we started out. It only got frustrating when we ended up with Hezonja and the Magic decided to hire Skiles in order to make the playoffs.

I also have no issues staying competitive and keep trying to make the playoffs. This whole tank talk is derived from YOU who think that's our one and only direction if we let go of Vuc. That's simply not the case. There are a lot of different options the team can go to for sustainability or improvement.

I'll say this about staying "competitive context"... It means A LOT more to the players getting meaningful playing time than it does to those sitting on the bench. ie. T-Ross helping us get to the playoffs and getting PT in Round 1 does a lot less for our future than Isaac helping us get to the playoffs and getting PT in Round 1.

Answer me this: If we resign Vuc (and Bamba progresses correctly) in what year would you project Bamba to become the starter?


After 2015, but prior to that the Magic tanked hard for 3 full seasons...and that's absolutely not what you said.

First you take fragments of my comments and assemble them to attempt to pass off something I never stated...and now you are trying to spin this? You literally in prior comment stated that the Magic never tanked hard.

You can convince yourself that a 42 win team that just lost its #1 and #2 options won't regress into the lottery if you want. That's on you.

Losing Vucevic, which almost certainly means losing Ross, for nothing is a total waste of assets. It breaks the key asset chain from Oladipo and Dwight Howard trade. For what? Cap space to try to convince free agents to come play for what will absolutely look like lottery bound team?

Competitive context means A LOT to the development of EVERY PLAYER on the roster. That is the philosophy of the BEST player development minds and franchises in the NBA. You can disagree with them if you want...but it's comical that you think you know more than the most respected player-development people in the industry.

Answer me this: In what year do you project Bamba (21) to be able to take the starting role from Vucevic (28)?
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#148 » by Skin » Thu May 16, 2019 1:05 am

ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:Nice, so pretty much you agree with me... that the Magic resisted a true tank because Devos wanted to win before he died.

I have no problems with the way we started out. It only got frustrating when we ended up with Hezonja and the Magic decided to hire Skiles in order to make the playoffs.

I also have no issues staying competitive and keep trying to make the playoffs. This whole tank talk is derived from YOU who think that's our one and only direction if we let go of Vuc. That's simply not the case. There are a lot of different options the team can go to for sustainability or improvement.

I'll say this about staying "competitive context"... It means A LOT more to the players getting meaningful playing time than it does to those sitting on the bench. ie. T-Ross helping us get to the playoffs and getting PT in Round 1 does a lot less for our future than Isaac helping us get to the playoffs and getting PT in Round 1.

Answer me this: If we resign Vuc (and Bamba progresses correctly) in what year would you project Bamba to become the starter?


After 2015, but prior to that the Magic tanked hard for 3 full seasons...and that's absolutely not what you said.

First you take fragments of my comments and assemble them to attempt to pass off something I never stated...and now you are trying to spin this? You literally in prior comment stated that the Magic never tanked hard.

You can convince yourself that a 42 win team that just lost its #1 and #2 options won't regress into the lottery if you want. That's on you.

Losing Vucevic, which almost certainly means losing Ross, for nothing is a total waste of assets. It breaks the key asset chain from Oladipo and Dwight Howard trade. For what? Cap space to try to convince free agents to come play for what will absolutely look like lottery bound team?

Competitive context means A LOT to the development of EVERY PLAYER on the roster. That is the philosophy of the BEST player development minds and franchises in the NBA. You can disagree with them if you want...but it's comical that you think you know more than the most respected player-development people in the industry.

Answer me this: In what year do you project Bamba (21) to be able to take the starting role from Vucevic (28)?

I'm sure I'm pretty clear and transparent in what I say... others seem to get it... but you have a creative way of dissecting it.

I never said we didn't ever tank.
I never said we didn't ever tank.
I never said we didn't ever tank.
I never said we didn't ever tank.
I've said it repetitively... that "we didn't tank hard enough".
We didn't tank hard enough.
We didn't tank hard enough.
We didn't tank hard enough.
We didn't tank hard enough.
Is that clear? Jeez.

I said it losing Vuc and Ross isn't a total loss of assets because cap space is an asset.

We may or may not go back into the lottery... it depends how the offseason is executed. There are too many variables to predict.

Competitive context means SOMETHING to every player, but it does not mean A LOT to every player. Obviously helped Aaron Gordon A LOT more than Melvin Frazier.

IF we resign Vuc, I think Bamba can overseat him sometime in his 3rd year. Vuc normally misses a lot of games due to injury, so I assume once he hits the IR, Bamba will have a chance to shine and not relinquish his starting spot. OR it will become apparent that Bamba is simply superior and Vuc will be traded at the deadline (in a really bad deal for us because no team wants an older Center on a big time contract who doesn't play D and can't win his match ups in the playoffs). If no trade can be made, Vuc will be stretched in the offseason and we will take the cap hit.

Now answer me back if you are a man.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#149 » by JF5 » Thu May 16, 2019 1:26 am

Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:Nice, so pretty much you agree with me... that the Magic resisted a true tank because Devos wanted to win before he died.

I have no problems with the way we started out. It only got frustrating when we ended up with Hezonja and the Magic decided to hire Skiles in order to make the playoffs.

I also have no issues staying competitive and keep trying to make the playoffs. This whole tank talk is derived from YOU who think that's our one and only direction if we let go of Vuc. That's simply not the case. There are a lot of different options the team can go to for sustainability or improvement.

I'll say this about staying "competitive context"... It means A LOT more to the players getting meaningful playing time than it does to those sitting on the bench. ie. T-Ross helping us get to the playoffs and getting PT in Round 1 does a lot less for our future than Isaac helping us get to the playoffs and getting PT in Round 1.

Answer me this: If we resign Vuc (and Bamba progresses correctly) in what year would you project Bamba to become the starter?


After 2015, but prior to that the Magic tanked hard for 3 full seasons...and that's absolutely not what you said.

First you take fragments of my comments and assemble them to attempt to pass off something I never stated...and now you are trying to spin this? You literally in prior comment stated that the Magic never tanked hard.

You can convince yourself that a 42 win team that just lost its #1 and #2 options won't regress into the lottery if you want. That's on you.

Losing Vucevic, which almost certainly means losing Ross, for nothing is a total waste of assets. It breaks the key asset chain from Oladipo and Dwight Howard trade. For what? Cap space to try to convince free agents to come play for what will absolutely look like lottery bound team?

Competitive context means A LOT to the development of EVERY PLAYER on the roster. That is the philosophy of the BEST player development minds and franchises in the NBA. You can disagree with them if you want...but it's comical that you think you know more than the most respected player-development people in the industry.

Answer me this: In what year do you project Bamba (21) to be able to take the starting role from Vucevic (28)?

I'm sure I'm pretty clear and transparent in what I say... others seem to get it... but you have a creative way of dissecting it.

I never said we didn't ever tank.
I never said we didn't ever tank.
I never said we didn't ever tank.
I never said we didn't ever tank.
I've said it repetitively... that "we didn't tank hard enough".
We didn't tank hard enough.
We didn't tank hard enough.
We didn't tank hard enough.
We didn't tank hard enough.
Is that clear? Jeez.

I said it losing Vuc and Ross isn't a total loss of assets because cap space is an asset.

We may or may not go back into the lottery... it depends how the offseason is executed. There are too many variables to predict.

Competitive context means SOMETHING to every player, but it does not mean A LOT to every player. Obviously helped Aaron Gordon A LOT more than Melvin Frazier.

IF we resign Vuc, I think Bamba can overseat him sometime in his 3rd year. Vuc normally misses a lot of games due to injury, so I assume once he hits the IR, Bamba will have a chance to shine and not relinquish his starting spot. OR it will become apparent that Bamba is simply superior and Vuc will be traded at the deadline (in a really bad deal for us because no team wants an older Center on a big time contract who doesn't play D and can't win his match ups in the playoffs). If no trade can be made, Vuc will be stretched in the offseason and we will take the cap hit.

Now answer me back if you are a man.


How is having capspace for a small market team that is lottery projected an asset? The best this team would do at that point would be overpaying a role player.

I just know in your mind Gordon will somehow be unleashed with no Vucevic "hindering" him. Or Markelle Fultz becomes that guy immediately.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#150 » by ezzzp » Thu May 16, 2019 3:39 am

Skin wrote: I'm sure I'm pretty clear and transparent in what I say... others seem to get it... but you have a creative way of dissecting it.

I never said we didn't ever tank.
I never said we didn't ever tank.
I never said we didn't ever tank.
I never said we didn't ever tank.
I've said it repetitively... that "we didn't tank hard enough".
We didn't tank hard enough.
We didn't tank hard enough.
We didn't tank hard enough.
We didn't tank hard enough.
Is that clear? Jeez.


My reply was to your statement that the Magic NEVER tanked hard enough the entire time. These are your words on post #142 which is what I replied to:

"We've NEVER aimed to be at the bottom. If anything, we've always resisted"

But the Magic ABSOLUTELY tanked hard in 12-13, 13-14 and 14-15. Those rosters were absolutely constructed to tank hard for #1 lottery odds. Only way to make them worse was to intentionally injure one or more of the young core Oladipo, Harris, Vucevic etc. Now how about you stop throwing tantrums like a whiny little boy.

Skin wrote:I said it losing Vuc and Ross isn't a total loss of assets because cap space is an asset.


Cap space isn't an asset to a small market team that just lost its top 2 players...especially a team that has been rebuilding for prior 7 years. Plus as reported by Bobby Marks, there are a ton of team in $17m cap room range this summer, making it even less likely that FA's go to a more than likely lottery situation.

Skin wrote:We may or may not go back into the lottery... it depends how the offseason is executed. There are too many variables to predict.


Lmao...too many variables to tell when its convenient...but somehow you are certain that Vucevic is going to get massive contract.

Skin wrote:Competitive context means SOMETHING to every player, but it does not mean A LOT to every player. Obviously helped Aaron Gordon A LOT more than Melvin Frazier.


You know that how? You don't know those players and you certainly have know idea how much it helped each of them. But GM's do, and the ones in the Magic front office (the ones that have constructed contenders) thought it was important for EVERYONE on team to experience the playoffs. They've said it numerous times.

Skin wrote:IF we resign Vuc, I think Bamba can overseat him sometime in his 3rd year. Vuc normally misses a lot of games due to injury, so I assume once he hits the IR, Bamba will have a chance to shine and not relinquish his starting spot. OR it will become apparent that Bamba is simply superior and Vuc will be traded at the deadline (in a really bad deal for us because no team wants an older Center on a big time contract who doesn't play D and can't win his match ups in the playoffs). If no trade can be made, Vuc will be stretched in the offseason and we will take the cap hit.


Well Bamba couldn't handle half a season of bench minutes vs smaller/lesser opponents without breaking down. He has rail thin ankles and super skinny legs...so if anyone is likely to be hurt its him. Vucevic has been pretty healthy most of his career, he's built solid.

Unless you can see the future, then you have NO CLUE as to what Vucevic will get in a trade. Plus in 3d season Vucevic will be 31, and his game will age well. Gasol is 34, Horford 33, Lopez is 32, etc. Stop talking about a subject you clearly don't know anything about.

Skin wrote:Now answer me back if you are a man.


Tough talk while cowering behind a keyboard. SMH
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#151 » by MagicMatic » Thu May 16, 2019 4:09 am

ezzzp wrote:
But the Magic ABSOLUTELY tanked hard in 12-13, 13-14 and 14-15. Those rosters were absolutely constructed to tank hard for #1 lottery odds.


No, they didn’t. No, they weren’t.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#152 » by ezzzp » Thu May 16, 2019 4:42 am

MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
But the Magic ABSOLUTELY tanked hard in 12-13, 13-14 and 14-15. Those rosters were absolutely constructed to tank hard for #1 lottery odds.


No, they didn’t. No, they weren’t.



Uh yea they did - and yes those rosters were absolute built to tank hard

Those three rosters were built dirt cheap and composed almost entirely with inexperienced youth and garbage heap vets.

On top of that, Hennigan hired a puppet coach to make sure they lost. Jacques Vaughn had NEVER ever been a head coach in his entire life. Not a single game of head coaching experience. Vaughn had no high school, no college, no international, no g-league...ZERO head coaching experience. Even the most extreme tank ever, Philadelphia's "the process," hired a guy with head coaching experience.

Those three rosters were built to lose as many games as possible...and they did. The Magic literally had the NBA's worst record in 12-13 and 3d worst in 13-14...they just got leapfrogged by Cleveland twice in the draft.

In 14-15 they had 5th worst record...but the FO wanted to tank hard. They kept that roster young and without any starter quality vets (Willy Green, Luke Ridnour, Ben Gordon, Channing Frye). The Magic didn't even hit the required NBA Salary Floor that year and had to pay the Floor Tax.

But front offices tank, players don't. The young core of Oladipo (22), Tobias Harris (22), Vucevic (24), Gordon (19), Fournier (22) all just naturally improved a little - and that was enough to add 4 more wins than the worst team, which was enough to drop them to 5th odds and eventually 5th pick.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#153 » by MagicMatic » Thu May 16, 2019 4:44 am

ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
But the Magic ABSOLUTELY tanked hard in 12-13, 13-14 and 14-15. Those rosters were absolutely constructed to tank hard for #1 lottery odds.


No, they didn’t. No, they weren’t.



Uh yea they did - and yes those rosters were absolute built to tank hard

Those three rosters were built dirt cheap and composed almost entirely with inexperienced youth and garbage heap vets. On top of that, Hennigan hired a puppet coach to make sure they lost. Jacques Vaughn had NEVER ever been a head coach in his entire life. Not a single game of head coaching experience. Vaughn had no high school, no college, no international, no g-league...ZERO head coaching experience. Even the most extreme tank ever, Philadelphia's "the process," hired a guy with head coaching experience. Those three rosters were built to lose as many games as possible...and they did.

The Magic literally had the NBA's worst record in 12-13 and 3d worst in 13-14...they just got leapfrogged by Cleveland twice in the draft.

In 14-15 they had 5th worst record. The FO kept that roster young and without any starter quality vets (Willy Green, Luke Ridnour, Ben Gordon, Channing Frye). The Magic didn't even hit the required NBA Salary Floor that year and had to pay the Floor Tax...the FO absolutely wanted to tank hard that season. But front offices tank, players don't. The young core of Oladipo (22), Tobias Harris (22), Vucevic (24), Gordon (19), Fournier (22) all just naturally improved a little - and that was enough to add 4 more wins than the worst team, which was enough to drop them to 5th odds and eventually 5th pick.


You are talking about a team that lost their superstar centerpiece and was in complete purgatory still fielding a roster comprised of the finals team and random players acquired from the trade. They lost their entire identity and coach in the process. 2012-13 was more of the same plus trading away vets for young pieces. 14-15 was bringing in all the draft selections with the Dwight trade pieces. They just weren’t good together or ready yet.

That’s not “constructing a tanking roster”. Philadelphia was tanking. Flipping picks and pieces perpetually with historically terrible losing seasons. Orlando was bad, but it was because of the aftermath of the Dwight trade, change in coaches, management, etc. not because it was “constructed”. You simply don’t know what tanking is.

Being bad, because of a lack of talent, and earning a top pick isn’t tanking.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#154 » by ezzzp » Thu May 16, 2019 4:53 am

MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
No, they didn’t. No, they weren’t.



Uh yea they did - and yes those rosters were absolute built to tank hard

Those three rosters were built dirt cheap and composed almost entirely with inexperienced youth and garbage heap vets. On top of that, Hennigan hired a puppet coach to make sure they lost. Jacques Vaughn had NEVER ever been a head coach in his entire life. Not a single game of head coaching experience. Vaughn had no high school, no college, no international, no g-league...ZERO head coaching experience. Even the most extreme tank ever, Philadelphia's "the process," hired a guy with head coaching experience. Those three rosters were built to lose as many games as possible...and they did.

The Magic literally had the NBA's worst record in 12-13 and 3d worst in 13-14...they just got leapfrogged by Cleveland twice in the draft.

In 14-15 they had 5th worst record. The FO kept that roster young and without any starter quality vets (Willy Green, Luke Ridnour, Ben Gordon, Channing Frye). The Magic didn't even hit the required NBA Salary Floor that year and had to pay the Floor Tax...the FO absolutely wanted to tank hard that season. But front offices tank, players don't. The young core of Oladipo (22), Tobias Harris (22), Vucevic (24), Gordon (19), Fournier (22) all just naturally improved a little - and that was enough to add 4 more wins than the worst team, which was enough to drop them to 5th odds and eventually 5th pick.


You are talking about a team that lost their superstar centerpiece and was in complete purgatory still fielding a roster comprised of the finals team and random players acquired from the trade. They lost their entire identity and coach in the process. 2012-13 was more of the same plus trading away vets for young pieces. 14-15 was bringing in all the draft selections with the Dwight trade pieces. They just weren’t good together or ready yet.

That’s not “constructing a tanking roster”. Philadelphia was tanking. Flipping picks and pieces perpetually with historically terrible losing seasons. Orlando was bad, but it was because of the aftermath of the Dwight trade, change in coaches, management, etc. not because it was “constructed”. You simply don’t know what tanking is.

Being bad, because of a lack of talent, and earning a top pick isn’t tanking.


LMAO NO. The Magic bottomed out intentionally...otherwise they wouldn't have traded Dwight Howard for picks and youth. They had offers for established quality players but Hennigan wanted to build from the ground up (aka tanking).



You don't wtf you are talking about.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#155 » by MagicMatic » Thu May 16, 2019 4:58 am

ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:

Uh yea they did - and yes those rosters were absolute built to tank hard

Those three rosters were built dirt cheap and composed almost entirely with inexperienced youth and garbage heap vets. On top of that, Hennigan hired a puppet coach to make sure they lost. Jacques Vaughn had NEVER ever been a head coach in his entire life. Not a single game of head coaching experience. Vaughn had no high school, no college, no international, no g-league...ZERO head coaching experience. Even the most extreme tank ever, Philadelphia's "the process," hired a guy with head coaching experience. Those three rosters were built to lose as many games as possible...and they did.

The Magic literally had the NBA's worst record in 12-13 and 3d worst in 13-14...they just got leapfrogged by Cleveland twice in the draft.

In 14-15 they had 5th worst record. The FO kept that roster young and without any starter quality vets (Willy Green, Luke Ridnour, Ben Gordon, Channing Frye). The Magic didn't even hit the required NBA Salary Floor that year and had to pay the Floor Tax...the FO absolutely wanted to tank hard that season. But front offices tank, players don't. The young core of Oladipo (22), Tobias Harris (22), Vucevic (24), Gordon (19), Fournier (22) all just naturally improved a little - and that was enough to add 4 more wins than the worst team, which was enough to drop them to 5th odds and eventually 5th pick.


You are talking about a team that lost their superstar centerpiece and was in complete purgatory still fielding a roster comprised of the finals team and random players acquired from the trade. They lost their entire identity and coach in the process. 2012-13 was more of the same plus trading away vets for young pieces. 14-15 was bringing in all the draft selections with the Dwight trade pieces. They just weren’t good together or ready yet.

That’s not “constructing a tanking roster”. Philadelphia was tanking. Flipping picks and pieces perpetually with historically terrible losing seasons. Orlando was bad, but it was because of the aftermath of the Dwight trade, change in coaches, management, etc. not because it was “constructed”. You simply don’t know what tanking is.

Being bad, because of a lack of talent, and earning a top pick isn’t tanking.


LMAO NO. The Magic bottomed out intentionally...otherwise they wouldn't have traded Dwight Howard for picks and youth. They had offers for established quality players but Hennigan wanted to build from the ground up (aka tanking).

You don't wtf you are talking about.


Actually, I do. Ok son.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#156 » by ezzzp » Thu May 16, 2019 5:11 am

MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
You are talking about a team that lost their superstar centerpiece and was in complete purgatory still fielding a roster comprised of the finals team and random players acquired from the trade. They lost their entire identity and coach in the process. 2012-13 was more of the same plus trading away vets for young pieces. 14-15 was bringing in all the draft selections with the Dwight trade pieces. They just weren’t good together or ready yet.

That’s not “constructing a tanking roster”. Philadelphia was tanking. Flipping picks and pieces perpetually with historically terrible losing seasons. Orlando was bad, but it was because of the aftermath of the Dwight trade, change in coaches, management, etc. not because it was “constructed”. You simply don’t know what tanking is.

Being bad, because of a lack of talent, and earning a top pick isn’t tanking.


LMAO NO. The Magic bottomed out intentionally...otherwise they wouldn't have traded Dwight Howard for picks and youth. They had offers for established quality players but Hennigan wanted to build from the ground up (aka tanking).

You don't wtf you are talking about.


Actually, I do. You are just a whiny child that can’t accept the truth. Pretty impressive to gauge over a message board.


Actually you don't.

If you did you would know that Philadelphia had injuries...Joel Embiid missed first two seasons, Ben Simmons missed 1st year...AND they missed horribly on Jalil Okafor. Plus, unlike Philly who also missed hard on their trades during the process (like Jrue Holiday for Nerlens Noel LOL), Hennigan for all his faults got quality immediate contributors with his: Fournier and Harris.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#157 » by MagicMatic » Thu May 16, 2019 5:16 am

ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
LMAO NO. The Magic bottomed out intentionally...otherwise they wouldn't have traded Dwight Howard for picks and youth. They had offers for established quality players but Hennigan wanted to build from the ground up (aka tanking).

You don't wtf you are talking about.


Actually, I do. You are just a whiny child that can’t accept the truth. Pretty impressive to gauge over a message board.


Actually you don't.

If you did you would know that Philadelphia had injuries...Joel Embiid missed first two seasons, Ben Simmons missed 1st year...AND they missed horribly on Jalil Okafor. Plus, unlike Philly who also missed hard on their trades during the process (like Jrue Holiday for Nerlens Noel LOL), Hennigan for all his faults got quality contributors with his: Fournier, Harris with his.


What in the world does Philadelphia’s “process” have to do with your assertion that Orlando knowingly “constructed a roster to tank” after a complete blowup in management and roster?

Just admit you are completely out of your element in your assertion and you don’t know what tanking is. It’s ok.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#158 » by ezzzp » Thu May 16, 2019 5:29 am

MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Actually, I do. You are just a whiny child that can’t accept the truth. Pretty impressive to gauge over a message board.


Actually you don't.

If you did you would know that Philadelphia had injuries...Joel Embiid missed first two seasons, Ben Simmons missed 1st year...AND they missed horribly on Jalil Okafor. Plus, unlike Philly who also missed hard on their trades during the process (like Jrue Holiday for Nerlens Noel LOL), Hennigan for all his faults got quality contributors with his: Fournier, Harris with his.


What in the world does Philadelphia’s “process” have to do with your assertion that Orlando knowingly “constructed a roster to tank” after a complete blowup in management and roster? Just admit you are completely out of your element in your assertion and you don’t know what tanking is. It’s ok.


Its a response to your assertion that PHI was tanking and Orlando was not: "That’s not constructing a tanking roster. Philadelphia was tanking. Flipping picks and pieces perpetually with historically terrible losing seasons."

Clearly you are the one that doesn't know what tanking is.

Orlando traded a superstar for lottery picks, an unknown C (Vucevic 22) and wing (Harkless 19) and cap relief...THAT IS bottoming out to tank...that produced the worst record in the NBA in 1st year, the 3 worst record in the NBA in the second, and 5th worst in 3d.

The FO literally had a payroll below the salary floor on 2 of those 3 seasons. They hired a head coach with zero head coaching experience EVER.

They traded away starting quality vets like JJ Redick and Aflallo for raw unproven young players (T Harris and Fournier). They gave away Ryan Anderson for Gustavo Ayon. They filled in those rosters with garbage vets like Willie Green, Channing Frye, Jason Maxill, Ronnie Price, Ben Gordon, Luke Ridnour, CJ Watson etc.

That is tanking.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#159 » by SOUL » Thu May 16, 2019 6:02 am

Please chill with the name calling (for everybody). It's not that hard to have healthy debate without the snide remarks.
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Re: What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic? 

Post#160 » by Skin » Thu May 16, 2019 6:06 am

ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote: I'm sure I'm pretty clear and transparent in what I say... others seem to get it... but you have a creative way of dissecting it.

I never said we didn't ever tank.
I never said we didn't ever tank.
I never said we didn't ever tank.
I never said we didn't ever tank.
I've said it repetitively... that "we didn't tank hard enough".
We didn't tank hard enough.
We didn't tank hard enough.
We didn't tank hard enough.
We didn't tank hard enough.
Is that clear? Jeez.


My reply was to your statement that the Magic NEVER tanked hard enough the entire time. These are your words on post #142 which is what I replied to:

"We've NEVER aimed to be at the bottom. If anything, we've always resisted"

But the Magic ABSOLUTELY tanked hard in 12-13, 13-14 and 14-15. Those rosters were absolutely constructed to tank hard for #1 lottery odds. Only way to make them worse was to intentionally injure one or more of the young core Oladipo, Harris, Vucevic etc. Now how about you stop throwing tantrums like a whiny little boy.

Skin wrote:I said it losing Vuc and Ross isn't a total loss of assets because cap space is an asset.


Cap space isn't an asset to a small market team that just lost its top 2 players...especially a team that has been rebuilding for prior 7 years. Plus as reported by Bobby Marks, there are a ton of team in $17m cap room range this summer, making it even less likely that FA's go to a more than likely lottery situation.

Skin wrote:We may or may not go back into the lottery... it depends how the offseason is executed. There are too many variables to predict.


Lmao...too many variables to tell when its convenient...but somehow you are certain that Vucevic is going to get massive contract.

Skin wrote:Competitive context means SOMETHING to every player, but it does not mean A LOT to every player. Obviously helped Aaron Gordon A LOT more than Melvin Frazier.


You know that how? You don't know those players and you certainly have know idea how much it helped each of them. But GM's do, and the ones in the Magic front office (the ones that have constructed contenders) thought it was important for EVERYONE on team to experience the playoffs. They've said it numerous times.

Skin wrote:IF we resign Vuc, I think Bamba can overseat him sometime in his 3rd year. Vuc normally misses a lot of games due to injury, so I assume once he hits the IR, Bamba will have a chance to shine and not relinquish his starting spot. OR it will become apparent that Bamba is simply superior and Vuc will be traded at the deadline (in a really bad deal for us because no team wants an older Center on a big time contract who doesn't play D and can't win his match ups in the playoffs). If no trade can be made, Vuc will be stretched in the offseason and we will take the cap hit.


Well Bamba couldn't handle half a season of bench minutes vs smaller/lesser opponents without breaking down. He has rail thin ankles and super skinny legs...so if anyone is likely to be hurt its him. Vucevic has been pretty healthy most of his career, he's built solid.

Unless you can see the future, then you have NO CLUE as to what Vucevic will get in a trade. Plus in 3d season Vucevic will be 31, and his game will age well. Gasol is 34, Horford 33, Lopez is 32, etc. Stop talking about a subject you clearly don't know anything about.

Skin wrote:Now answer me back if you are a man.


Tough talk while cowering behind a keyboard. SMH

This post is chalk full of false statements, you're spinning make up stuff and you are too scared to answer my question. I'll leave you alone to recover your senses.

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