What's your breaking point (in $) for resigning Vucevic?

[MagicFan101]

Problem is perception.
Vučević is allstar. One side overvalues what that means, other side undervalues what it means.

Putting lipstick on a pig doesn’t change the fact that you simply have an ugly pig.

Putting the honorable mention Allstate reserve label on Vuc doesn’t change the fact that we simply have an above average center on a roster deep with F/C prospect and lacking guard / wing talent.

[Skin]

It's not automatic. That's not what I'm trying to prove. I'm proving that upside does exist while you said it was not reality. You can't pull a guy off the street and make him an NBA player. There have to be certain qualities about the person that give him a chance to succeed. Whether he does or not has varying reasons and factors. No one is saying upside = success. It's not automatic, but players who have it, are blessed with the chance to achieve success.

Just hearing you talk, you're arguing against thoughts that aren't even there. Just because someone doesn't want Vuc back doesn't mean that they want Bamba to start right away. Doesn't mean they expect Bamba to replace everything that Vuc did or meant to the team from Day 1. Bamba is a young developing player and who needs to find his way into becoming a successful player. Why don't we have the time to allow him to grow into that? We're not chasing championships. What if he does make a big jump in progression? Just because he hasn't done it yet, doesn't mean he'll never there.

Do you feel like this Magic team has upside to do more than get eliminated in Round 1?

Of course it exists...but its not automatic. That's what I'm saying. Not only is not automatic, but its actually rare.

Nothing we saw from Bamba last year pointed to him being something "special" enough to throw away assets for.

You are stipulating letting a 28 year old All Star C walk in FA because a very raw player "has upside." No way am I ever going to agree with that because I don't believe in tanking or that gifting minutes is a good developmental in the long run.

Yes I do feel this Magic team has upside to go further. Internal development of Isaac, Fultz, Gordon and Bamba + stable vet production + competitive context will maximize production and trade values to grow internally and through trade...plus all that will improve the reputation of organization to be able to maximize any cap space/exceptions to add to the mix.

If you don't feel that anyone on roster can get better to improve roster past 1st round, why in the world are you arguing for "upside" of Bamba ...because you want to tank? You can say it won't be tanking, just losing a lot while trying...but everyone not in denial knows what it will be.

Letting Vuc go is not throwing away assets. The asset is cap space. Cap space that can be used in another way should not be looked at as being "thrown away".

What if we offered a 2-3 year deal to DeAndre Jordan, Robin Lopez, WCS, Dwayne Dedmon as a placeholder until Bamba is ready? Or offered a guard or wing with big money and a signed a cheaper FA C like Kanter, Okafor, Noel, Monroe... There are options out there other than "SIGN VUC OR DIE".

There has to be something in your mind that will help you ease off of your extreme assumptions in every direction. Letting go of Vuc doesn't have to equate to tanking. Letting him walk in FA does not mean you lose the asset. Bamba doesn't have to be seen as a future failure because he hasn't shown anything yet. Signing Vuc isn't our only sane option.

Say Vuc signs a 4 or 5 year deal and at the same time you are hopeful for Bamba (as you already admitted). What year does Bamba ideally become a starter over Vuc in your mind?

[Skin]

Problem is perception.
Vučević is allstar. One side overvalues what that means, other side undervalues what it means.

Putting lipstick on a pig doesn’t change the fact that you simply have an ugly pig.

Putting the honorable mention Allstate reserve label on Vuc doesn’t change the fact that we simply have an above average center on a roster deep with F/C prospect and lacking guard / wing talent.

[ezzzp]

If you don't feel that anyone on roster can get better to improve roster past 1st round, why in the world are you arguing for "upside" of Bamba ...because you are addicted to tanking and the fools gold hope it preaches. You can say it won't be tanking, just losing a lot while trying...but everyone not in denial knows what it is.

Why is this a sticking point for you? Not resigning Vuc doesn’t equal “tanking”. You are the only person throwing that word around. What we do know is that first round exits and barely sneaking into the playoffs gets a lower pick. That being said, Clifford and co. will try to win as many games as possible (as they should) , Vucevic or not. Would it still be considered “tanking” to you if Vuc left for greener pastures despite Orlando matching an offer? No, It doesn’t. They’ll have a number and have already said they won’t be overpaying for whatever it’s worth.

Players will get better, but they aren’t going to unlock different aspects of their games out of thin air simply because they are winning more. Bamba and Isaac simply need playing time and more exposure to professional basketball in all its facets. Oladipo went from Orlando playing “ok” to a winning situation in OKC, while playing terribly, only to go to a different situation and thrive. It’s completely situational. You continue to throw out blanket statements that don’t necessarily apply to everything and everyone.

You and Skin are lying to yourselves if you don't think this team recedes back to the high lottery minus Vucevic.

Forget about Ross, he's gone the second Vucevic is. Forget free agency, the FO will have to dig through the scrap heap of low caliber vets and overpay them to join the 8th year of the rebuild - with a forecast of at least a couple more season's of losing.

Once the focal point of Clifford's system is gone, its back to 25-32 win range - at best if everything clicks right. It won't matter how hard Clifford tries to win.

If Vucevic leaves despite Magic trying, the franchise will be forced to restart the already 7 year long rebuild. You can call it whatever the heck you want. By February, the tankers will be joined by even the most optimist to bottom out for best odds. Rinse repeat.

Playing in competitive context IS recognized as the absolute best way to develop players. This has been stated by the best GM's and coaches in NBA for years now. Gifting minutes in losing contexts is acknowledged as worst developmental context where players learn to be ok with losing and develop bad habits that lower their peak.

Oladipo learned how to win in OKC, and he learned how to work from Westbrook. Google Oladipo interview with Woj, and listen to him bash the Magic too much youth/tank context and give OKC/Westbrook credit for his improvement.

[BadMofoPimp]

If you don't feel that anyone on roster can get better to improve roster past 1st round, why in the world are you arguing for "upside" of Bamba ...because you are addicted to tanking and the fools gold hope it preaches. You can say it won't be tanking, just losing a lot while trying...but everyone not in denial knows what it is.

Why is this a sticking point for you? Not resigning Vuc doesn’t equal “tanking”. You are the only person throwing that word around. What we do know is that first round exits and barely sneaking into the playoffs gets a lower pick. That being said, Clifford and co. will try to win as many games as possible (as they should) , Vucevic or not. Would it still be considered “tanking” to you if Vuc left for greener pastures despite Orlando matching an offer? No, It doesn’t. They’ll have a number and have already said they won’t be overpaying for whatever it’s worth.

Players will get better, but they aren’t going to unlock different aspects of their games out of thin air simply because they are winning more. Bamba and Isaac simply need playing time and more exposure to professional basketball in all its facets. Oladipo went from Orlando playing “ok” to a winning situation in OKC, while playing terribly, only to go to a different situation and thrive. It’s completely situational. You continue to throw out blanket statements that don’t necessarily apply to everything and everyone.

You and Skin are lying to yourselves if you don't think this team recedes back to the high lottery minus Vucevic.

Forget about Ross, he's gone the second Vucevic is. Forget free agency, the FO will have to dig through the scrap heap of low caliber vets and overpay them to join the 8th year of the rebuild - with a forecast of at least a couple more season's of losing.

Once the focal point of Clifford's system is gone, its back to 25-32 win range - at best if everything clicks right. It won't matter how hard Clifford tries to win.

If Vucevic leaves despite Magic trying, the franchise will be forced to restart the already 7 year long rebuild. You can call it whatever the heck you want. By February, the tankers will be joined by even the most optimist to bottom out for best odds. Rinse repeat.

Playing in competitive context IS recognized as the absolute best way to develop players. This has been stated by the best GM's and coaches in NBA for years now. Gifting minutes in losing contexts is acknowledged as worst developmental context where players learn to be ok with losing and develop bad habits that lower their peak.

Oladipo learned how to win in OKC, and he learned how to work from Westbrook. Google Oladipo interview with Woj, and listen to him bash the Magic too much youth/tank context and give OKC/Westbrook credit for his improvement.

Then, another 2-4 years of bottom feeding and end up with maybe 1-2 of AG/Slim and 1-2 of Mario. Lose-Lose. But, those guys will still be happy and will then think the team should tank for another couple years. By then, we will all be old people here reminiscing about that one time we made it to the finals decades before.

And, that is the Highest Probable result.

[ezzzp]

Letting Vuc go is not throwing away assets. The asset is cap space. Cap space that can be used in another way should not be looked at as being "thrown away".

What if we offered a 2-3 year deal to DeAndre Jordan, Robin Lopez, WCS, Dwayne Dedmon as a placeholder until Bamba is ready? Or offered a guard or wing with big money and a signed a cheaper FA C like Kanter, Okafor, Noel, Monroe... There are options out there other than "SIGN VUC OR DIE".

There has to be something in your mind that will help you ease off of your extreme assumptions in every direction. Letting go of Vuc doesn't have to equate to tanking. Letting him walk in FA does not mean you lose the asset. Bamba doesn't have to be seen as a future failure because he hasn't shown anything yet. Signing Vuc isn't our only sane option.

Say Vuc signs a 4 or 5 year deal and at the same time you are hopeful for Bamba (as you already admitted). What year does Bamba ideally become a starter over Vuc in your mind?

Yes it is, quality players don't sign with a small market lottery bound team. What you get is average and below caliber and often it requires an overpay.

The options you say aren't a placeholder for Vucevic, lmao. Not even close. They are Channing Frye-type band aid signings to spin to the fan base that the "vet presence" will miraculously protect the young core from the contamination of the massive losses heading their way.

FYI WCS is a RFA, aka 4yr overpay to outbid other offer sheets and to not get matched. You are complaining that Bamba won't get to start in future with Vucevic, but want to let the better C walk in order to try to pry WCS away from Sacramento?

You need to come to terms that if the Magic lose Vucevic (which almost certainly means lose Ross also), the franchise is free falling right back to the lottery and the rebuild will go on for at least 2-3 more years.

[Skin]

If you don't feel that anyone on roster can get better to improve roster past 1st round, why in the world are you arguing for "upside" of Bamba ...because you are addicted to tanking and the fools gold hope it preaches. You can say it won't be tanking, just losing a lot while trying...but everyone not in denial knows what it is.

Why is this a sticking point for you? Not resigning Vuc doesn’t equal “tanking”. You are the only person throwing that word around. What we do know is that first round exits and barely sneaking into the playoffs gets a lower pick. That being said, Clifford and co. will try to win as many games as possible (as they should) , Vucevic or not. Would it still be considered “tanking” to you if Vuc left for greener pastures despite Orlando matching an offer? No, It doesn’t. They’ll have a number and have already said they won’t be overpaying for whatever it’s worth.

Players will get better, but they aren’t going to unlock different aspects of their games out of thin air simply because they are winning more. Bamba and Isaac simply need playing time and more exposure to professional basketball in all its facets. Oladipo went from Orlando playing “ok” to a winning situation in OKC, while playing terribly, only to go to a different situation and thrive. It’s completely situational. You continue to throw out blanket statements that don’t necessarily apply to everything and everyone.

You and Skin are lying to yourselves if you don't think this team recedes back to the high lottery minus Vucevic.

Forget about Ross, he's gone the second Vucevic is. Forget free agency, the FO will have to dig through the scrap heap of low caliber vets and overpay them to join the 8th year of the rebuild - with a forecast of at least a couple more season's of losing.

Once the focal point of Clifford's system is gone, its back to 25-32 win range - at best if everything clicks right. It won't matter how hard Clifford tries to win.

If Vucevic leaves despite Magic trying, the franchise will be forced to restart the already 7 year long rebuild. You can call it whatever the heck you want. By February, the tankers will be joined by even the most optimist to bottom out for best odds. Rinse repeat.

Playing in competitive context IS recognized as the absolute best way to develop players. This has been stated by the best GM's and coaches in NBA for years now. Gifting minutes in losing contexts is acknowledged as worst developmental context where players learn to be ok with losing and develop bad habits that lower their peak.

Oladipo learned how to win in OKC, and he learned how to work from Westbrook. Google Oladipo interview with Woj, and listen to him bash the Magic too much youth/tank context and give OKC/Westbrook credit for his improvement.

There you go again with "gifting minutes"... Nobody is saying this with regards to Bamba. If that's anybody's idea, that's YOUR idea.

IMO Bamba should be starting in his 3rd season. If all goes well, maybe he takes over partially through next season. It's not as rare as you think to see success stories... Ayton, Bagley, Doncic, Young, JJJ, Sexton, Carter all started as rookies... Are they busts? Are they ruined?

You can believe the sky is falling all you want. It's your assumption. I say it depends on how WeHam executes their offseason.

[MagicMatic]

If you don't feel that anyone on roster can get better to improve roster past 1st round, why in the world are you arguing for "upside" of Bamba ...because you are addicted to tanking and the fools gold hope it preaches. You can say it won't be tanking, just losing a lot while trying...but everyone not in denial knows what it is.

Why is this a sticking point for you? Not resigning Vuc doesn’t equal “tanking”. You are the only person throwing that word around. What we do know is that first round exits and barely sneaking into the playoffs gets a lower pick. That being said, Clifford and co. will try to win as many games as possible (as they should) , Vucevic or not. Would it still be considered “tanking” to you if Vuc left for greener pastures despite Orlando matching an offer? No, It doesn’t. They’ll have a number and have already said they won’t be overpaying for whatever it’s worth.

Players will get better, but they aren’t going to unlock different aspects of their games out of thin air simply because they are winning more. Bamba and Isaac simply need playing time and more exposure to professional basketball in all its facets. Oladipo went from Orlando playing “ok” to a winning situation in OKC, while playing terribly, only to go to a different situation and thrive. It’s completely situational. You continue to throw out blanket statements that don’t necessarily apply to everything and everyone.

You and Skin are lying to yourselves if you don't think this team recedes back to the high lottery minus Vucevic.

Forget about Ross, he's gone the second Vucevic is. Forget free agency, the FO will have to dig through the scrap heap of low caliber vets and overpay them to join the 8th year of the rebuild - with a forecast of at least a couple more season's of losing.

Once the focal point of Clifford's system is gone, its back to 25-32 win range - at best if everything clicks right. It won't matter how hard Clifford tries to win.

If Vucevic leaves despite Magic trying, the franchise will be forced to restart the already 7 year long rebuild. You can call it whatever the heck you want. By February, the tankers will be joined by even the most optimist to bottom out for best odds. Rinse repeat.

Playing in competitive context IS recognized as the absolute best way to develop players. This has been stated by the best GM's and coaches in NBA for years now. Gifting minutes in losing contexts is acknowledged as worst developmental context where players learn to be ok with losing and develop bad habits that lower their peak.

Oladipo learned how to win in OKC, and he learned how to work from Westbrook. Google Oladipo interview with Woj, and listen to him bash the Magic too much youth/tank context and give OKC/Westbrook credit for his improvement.

Regardless of what you want to call it, losing Vuc won’t be the end all be all. I believe Isaac, AG, and co. would be forced to step up and not use Vuc as a crutch to shouldering the offense 90% of the time. You aren’t taking into account that a raise in player accountability could possibly increase their productivity. It’s a possibility.

Right, the Oladipo is example is used to show that he wasn’t immediately successful simply because he was in a “winning environment” in OKC. Did he learn from that stint? Yes. However, he was in an infinitely better situation to actually thrive. You can’t just plug production into a system and expect it to work 100%. Situations matter.

[SOUL]

I can see where ezzzp and others are coming from, but the argument that Vuc is the savior of this franchise (as in, moving on from him means we'll be in some hellish world of turmoil and suckyness) cannot be applicable to anything but this year. We were bad with him putting up middling seasons the past few years (his fault, since he clearly was playing worse), bad when he was younger while putting up good numbers (because the entire team was young and inexperienced, not his fault at all).

We are not in some scenario of having long, sustained success with Vuc at the helm, and while he has been a good player throughout his career, this has been the one year that you go okay, if we do lose him, it will be hard to immediately address those areas where he improved our team and provided impact. Some people do not mind addressing this hole and don't mind taking a step back in hopes of a better ceiling, others are finally enjoying the improvements we've made and think we can build on it. I don't think either side is necessarily wrong or right, because we don't know if Vuc has another gear left in him, if he'll be better, the same, or worse, how the youngsters will respond and play the next few years, etc.

People are putting their chips in the areas they believe in the most.

There are long-winded stats and arguments coming from both sides, but the dynamic of Vuc and the team is simple. Pay him if it's not worth it to lose an asset for nothing, and if you think the impending contract (3-4 years) will not screw over development of our players and if we can somehow integrate a successful offense that isn't just predicated on the ball going through Vuc. If we have natural improvement from our players and run it back with Vuc, maybe we can get further in the playoffs.

Otherwise, I don't think not paying him means doom and gloom for our franchise. It's a bit of a misrepresentation to pretend that we're losing a player that has made us a playoff team (in the East, no less) for a while, when in reality, we're losing a player that this year was far and away our highest impact player, best player, and all-star. That's why it's a hard decision for FO because there are arguments on both sides that make logical sense.

Realistically, I think our ceiling is about the same if we resign Vuc or not, at least short term. It's all on Fultz and Bamba who are mysteries. Gordon is pretty much who he is, but he will have minor improvements. Isaac is going to be a hellish defender, and like I said, a legit top tier role player IMO with a few all-defenses to his name. We still aren't doing anything without a genuine scorer.

[MagicFan101]

SOUL brings up a good point (at least how I interpreted his post).

The right question might be whether or not losing Vuc single handedly sends us into another 5+ year rebuild.

I just don’t see him as that kind of talent. Yes, losing Vuc means others have to step up and replace his production. But that has more to do with how bad we have been than how good he has been.

[Bensational]

Who are Vucevic's potential suiters?

From what I can see only Sacramento, LA Clippers, LA Lakers, New Orleans and Dallas.

• Teams that do not need a starting center as they already have them under guaranteed contract:

Spoiler:

Atlanta: Alex Len 4.2m / M Plumlee 12.5m /D Dedmon UFA
Charlotte: C Zeller 14.5m / B Biyombo 17.0m / F Kaminsky RFA
Chicago: W Carter Jr 5.2m / C Felicio 8.2m / O Asik 3.0m SP / R Lopez UFA
Cleveland: A Zizic 2.3m / J Henson 10.5m / T Thompson18.5m / L Nance 12.7m
Denver: N Jokic 26.5m / M Plumlee 14.0m
Detroit: A Drummond 27.1m / T Maker 3.6m / J Leuer 9.6m / Z Pachulia UFA
Indiana: M Turner 18.0m / D Sabonis 3.5m / K O’Quinn UFA
Minnesota: K Towns 27.5m / G Dieng 16.3m
Portland: J Nurkic 12.0m / M Leonard 11.3m / Z Collins 4.2m / E Kanter UFA
San Antonio: L Aldridge 26.0m / J Poeltl 3.8m
Brooklyn: J Allen 2.8m / E Davis UFA
Houston: C Capella 16.4m / N Hilario 3.8m PO / K Faried UFA
New York: M Robinson 1.6m / J Noah 6.4m SP/ D Jordan UFA / L Kornet RFA
Oklahoma City: S Adams 25.8m / N Noel 2.0m PO
Philadelphia: J Embiid 27.5m / J Bolden 1.7m / B Marjanovic UFA
Phoenix: D Ayton 9.6m / R Holmes UFA
Utah: R Gobert 24.8m / D Favors 16.9m TO / E Udoh UFA / T Bradley 2.0m


• Teams that don't need a starting center but their center has a player option:

Boston: A Horford 30.1m PO / A Baynes 5.5m PO / R Williams 1.9m
Memphis: J Valenciunas 17.6m PO / J Jackson Jr 6.9m / I Rabb 1.6m / J Noah UFA
Miami: H Whiteside 27.1m PO / B Adebayo 3.5m / K Olynyk 13.1m
Toronto: M Gasol 25.6m PO / S Ibaka 23.3m / C Boucher 1.6m

I don't see any of those C's opting out of guaranteed money. Its being reported that Horford will renegotiate and extend with Boston. Gasol is a longshot if Raptors break up team, but even if he does Toronto already has Ibaka who was starter before trade and will be if he leaves. No way that Whiteside or Valenciunas opt out of those deals. Adebayo has been starting for Miami, so even in the crazy scenario that Hassan opts out, they're covered. Same with Memphis as JJJr is already physically ready and producing.

• Teams that don't need a starting center but that player is a Restricted Free Agent:

Dallas: K Porzingis RFA / D Powell 10.6m PO
Sacramento: W Cauley-Stein RFA / H Giles 2.6m / K Koufos UFA
Washington: T Bryant RFA / B Portis RFA / D Howard 5.6m / I Mahinmi 15.5m
LA Clippers: I Zubac RFA / M Harrell 6.0m

Dallas will extend Porzingis or make him a RFA whom they'll match any offer. If he picks up his QO then he's their C next year anyhow. Maybe he wants to play PF and Dallas will try to find a center to start next to him.

I find it hard to see Sacramento let WCS go in RFA to chase Vucevic after he played so well for them. Vucevic does create spacing for Fox/Bagley to operate in, so maybe they feel that's more important for the full development of their two best young prospects than retaining a rim runner/defense big like WCS.

Washington might have to go deep in luxury tax to keep Bryant. Same thing with Portis. They already have Howard and Mahinmi owed guaranteed $ so even if they let him go - they aren't adding a C. If anything they'll be looking to dump salary to keep Bryant and Portis.

Clippers' offseason priorities are to acquire two max level free agents. They like Zubac a lot and can sign him over the salary cap (if) after they acquire those free agents. Seems unlikely that they pursue a C with their max cap space, with Zubac and Harrell in tow. If they strike out in FA, maybe they go after Vucevic.

• Teams whose starting center is an unrestricted free agent and have no replacement under contract

Milwaukee: B Lopez UFA / P Gasol UFA
New Orleans: A Davis 27.1m X / J Randle RFA / J Okafor TO / C Diallo RFA / C Wood RFA
Golden State: D Cousins UFA / K Looney UFA / A Bogut UFA / J Bell RFA
LA Lakers: J McGee UFA / T Chandler UFA / M Wagner 2.6m

Bucks will retain Lopez, no way they mess with that chemistry plus they won't have cap room.

GSW will have no cap space even if Durant leaves as they'll have to pay Klay Thompson. They'll use bird rights to resign their own fa or get guys in minimum deals.

New Orleans is hard to tell until the Anthony Davis deal is complete. They might get back a starting C; or they might dismantle the team (in which case doubtful they'd be in market for Vucevic; or they might try to stay competitive with Jrue/Randle and want a true C.

Lakers have need, but now that Frank Vogel is head coach I find it hard to believe Vucevic risks playing for him through his prime. But you never know with LeBron doing the asking and Vucevic's USC ties.

Good write up.

I think the draft lottery and draft night could kickstart a moving landscape in the league this offseason. On top of the teams you've listed above that might have interest in Vuc, there could be a handful of teams that are on the precipice of joining the playoffs who also might make moves that make them more appealing to him.

Atlanta: Alex Len 4.2m / M Plumlee 12.5m /D Dedmon UFA
Chicago: W Carter Jr 5.2m / C Felicio 8.2m / O Asik 3.0m SP / R Lopez UFA
Indiana: M Turner 18.0m / D Sabonis 3.5m / K O’Quinn UFA
San Antonio: L Aldridge 26.0m / J Poeltl 3.8m
New York: M Robinson 1.6m / J Noah 6.4m SP/ D Jordan UFA / L Kornet RFA

Atlanta has the face of their young franchise in Young. They could potentially have a top 4 pick plus Dallas' pick. If they wanted to offer up Dallas' pick plus something extra, they might be able to put together packages to land the likes of Holiday or Beal. If they somehow end up with the capacity to add Barret + Holiday, for example, they could make a strong push for Vuc to come and help Holiday stabilise their roster. They'd be equipped to be competitive from day 1, with big scope for growth with:

Vuc
Collins
Barret
Holiday
Young

Chicago probably don't want Vuc whilst they've already got WCJr for so cheap. But maybe they see value in consolidating WCJr + Porter for a better wing to accompany LaVine? Who knows where their pick ends up. But a Vuc/Markkanen/Porter front court would give them elite shooting bigs that would open the paint up dramatically. You add Morant to that backcourt and they could be quite lethal with the right coaching.

Vuc/WCJr
Markkanen
Porter
LaVine
Dunn

Indiana already has Turner, but they're in big need for a 2nd star to play alongside Oladipo, and they have cap space. What if they offered up Turner + their pick, could it land them Holiday or another allstar veteran being shopped? Add Vuc to that combo with Sabonis, and they could be very dangerous.

Vuc
Sabonis
Bogdanovic
Holiday
Oladipo

San Antonio are a team that's hard to gauge. They never make brash moves. They're slow and methodical. But, what kind of ceiling do they envision for this current version of the Spurs? Would Pop consider trying to move Aldridge to free up room and capspace for Vuc? Doubt it. But if the offer is there and Vuc can play for Pop, he'd be a fool not to take it. Every player should aspire to play for Pop, in my opinion.

New York are a wildcard. My suspicions are they sign Durant + Kyrie/Kemba/Butler, and shop a package of their pick + DSJr + Robinson for AD, which would mean they wouldn't have any remaining space for Vuc. But, in the event free agency goes crazy and Durant is left without a sidekick, they might throw an offer at Vuc. And you can't turn down the chance to play with Durant, especially if the money is equal.

Meanwhile, I think Sacramento goes hard after Vuc. They've got everything they need in place with youth now, they've got Walton coming to try and implement a baby-Warriors offense. Give them Vuc and he could be the Bogut-like stabilising veteran to pull it all together. Only this time Vuc can shoot 3's and is an even better passer than Bogut, giving them scope to become dangerous real quickly.

Dallas will always be a threat depending on how their own FA targets land. Lakers and Clippers I don't see as much, but who knows.

In the end, if you're Vuc you're going to be weighing up:

- What's the money on offer?
- Who do I get to play with?
- How competitive will they be?
- What will my role be?
- Do I want to raise a family in this area?

A lot of teams could check those boxes for him. The demand could be high.

[SOUL]

SOUL brings up a good point (at least how I interpreted his post).

The right question might be whether or not losing Vuc single handedly sends us into another 5+ year rebuild.

I just don’t see him as that kind of talent. Yes, losing Vuc means others have to step up and replace his production. But that has more to do with how bad we have been than how good he has been.

Yeah, I'm saying the ceiling and floor isn't as low and high as some people think with this move alone. We're not going to be some hopeless franchise if he's gone, but at the same time, we're not going to immediately improve or have insane ceiling in 2 years either just because other people are getting more shots, touches, etc.

We are going to have to acquire an elite scorer somehow. If the path to doing that means not resigning Vuc and Ross, then we should go in that direction. If Ross and Vuc resigning means that we can somehow do that as well, I'm for it.

[ezzzp]

There you go again with "gifting minutes"... Nobody is saying this with regards to Bamba. If that's anybody's idea, that's YOUR idea.

IMO Bamba should be starting in his 3rd season. If all goes well, maybe he takes over partially through next season. It's not as rare as you think to see success stories... Ayton, Bagley, Doncic, Young, JJJ, Sexton, Carter all started as rookies... Are they busts? Are they ruined?

You can believe the sky is falling all you want. It's your assumption. I say it depends on how WeHam executes their offseason.

There you go pretending that playing in losing context learning from a mercenary big just there for biggest paycheck is somehow a "good" thing.

Bamba starting is meaningless unless its in a winning context.

Who cares what those other rookies did, you think Bamba's body and/or skill set was in any way remotely close to where those rookies were day one?

I have nothing against rookies starting, if they deserve it. Bamba didn't even really deserve back up minutes over Birch; and you want to compare him to Doncic etc?

I don't believe the sky is falling, you are the one saying that the Magic will never be more than a 1st round team.

My pov is all about maintaining a competitive context for the young players to develop the right way and to maximize assets as trade will be most likely way to upgrade over next 2-3 years, NOT free agency.

I like how you just used "how WeHam executes their offseason" as disclaimer...so if they can't get any good free agents if Vucevic isn't re-signed you can blame it on poor execution, instead of real cause: that losing Vucevic (aka heading to lottery) rendered capspace useless.



..

[ezzzp]

Regardless of what you want to call it, losing Vuc won’t be the end all be all. I believe Isaac, AG, and co. would be forced to step up and not use Vuc as a crutch to shouldering the offense 90% of the time. You aren’t taking into account that a raise in player accountability could possibly increase their productivity. It’s a possibility.

Right, the Oladipo is example is used to show that he wasn’t immediately successful simply because he was in a “winning environment” in OKC. Did he learn from that stint? Yes. However, he was in an infinitely better situation to actually thrive. You can’t just plug production into a system and expect it to work 100%. Situations matter.

Its called losing a ton of games; creating the worst possible developmental context possible; creating context were assets devalue. Its called extending the rebuild for 2-3 years to make it a decade long one.

Player accountability already exists because of the competitive context built by the playoff run. You know what destroys that? Losing a lot and playing half a season of meaningless games because the team is out of the playoff race by January.

Oladipo was in a winning context playing alongside and learning from quality starter caliber veterans in 82 meaningful games + playoff games...that's why he developed and improved then in following season broke out. That's the context.

The context where he didn't thrive or develop was the one were he was in losing context, were there was too much youth and no starting quality vets commanding respect to learn from, were losing more games was not only no big deal but what FO actually wanted and that permeated everything every day he was in Orlando.

[MagicMatic]

SOUL brings up a good point (at least how I interpreted his post).

The right question might be whether or not losing Vuc single handedly sends us into another 5+ year rebuild.

I just don’t see him as that kind of talent. Yes, losing Vuc means others have to step up and replace his production. But that has more to do with how bad we have been than how good he has been.

Yeah, I'm saying the ceiling and floor isn't as low and high as some people think with this move alone. We're not going to be some hopeless franchise if he's gone, but at the same time, we're not going to immediately improve or have insane ceiling in 2 years either just because other people are getting more shots, touches, etc.

We are going to have to acquire an elite scorer somehow. If the path to doing that means not resigning Vuc and Ross, then we should go in that direction. If Ross and Vuc resigning means that we can somehow do that as well, I'm for it.

That’s the million dollar question. How do you acquire an “elite scorer” picking 15-18 in the draft and being a complete non factor in free agency? Even if AG and Isaacs value is “increased from winning”, whatever metric that means, teams aren’t giving away elite scorers willingly. The flawed logic is that “winning solves all and going in a different direction won’t provide better results”. Completely untrue.

[SOUL]

I think very few rookies "deserve" to start. You could put up massive stats and still have horrible efficiency and be a negative on the court. Bamba early on was actually on the higher end of rookies as far as impact, but as his play faltered, he slipped a lot, hence why some numbers look awful for him. I'm not blaming all of that on him, with Simms and Grant "feeding" him the ball, but at least you could tell where his areas need to improve. Conditioning, strength, activity, picking his spots better. All of that needs to be and will be improved upon. But he did show flashes of pretty much everything you need and want in a modern big man. I wouldn't trade him for Ayton.

It's a philosophy of how to go about improving Bamba in game. I would say he deserves at least 20 minutes next year. Getting around 15-16 this year was fair considering how Vuc was playing and how Bamba was playing, but we can't Mario him and see glimpses of genius but not even know what we have until he's playing for another team. For every Mario who didn't realize their talents (well, he finally did at the end of this season with the Knicks), you can have a Tobias or Fournier who immediately play better once traded and are allowed to mess up and get a good amount of minutes.

I am glad the Hawks stuck with Trae. They were in a position to just give no **** about what happened with Trae and go all in on him. Their fans seem to be far less in favor of the conservative approach that our fans/FO have been doing for years with young players, and while it's benefited some of our guys, it's also bit us in the ass. So as far as Bamba is concerned, I don't think there needs to be some "play better than Vuc or be benched" invisible line that he has to reach, because Vuc wasn't even given that line. Just being average on both sides of the ball for how young he is would be huge for us, and I don't that's as far away as some people think it'll be with the timelines being thrown out around here.

[Bensational]

I don't understand the take that if Vuc walks (or we let him walk), that the team instantly becomes a tanking team. It just contradicts logic. WeHam haven't shown themselves to be of a tanking mindset. Clifford certainly isn't a tanker. So even if the talent declines, we can be sure that Clifford will be milking whatever is there to be as competitive as possible.

Letting Vuc go and assuming we'll be sent to the doldrums seems to ignore the team having any capacity to make further changes. If you let him go, then WeHam will surely know that Clifford's offensive focal point is gone, and they'll need to address that. What's leftover?

Bamba - not ready.
Gordon - not a lead scorer.
Isaac - not ready, and not a lead scorer. maybe 2 seasons away from trying to be what Siakam is.
Fournier - has had multiple shots, not a lead scorer. fresh off his worst season.
DJ - he's a bench sparkplug at best.
Fultz - massive x factor

So clearly, if Vuc goes, the team needs to make more changes. The same way the Nets moved Lopez and within 2 seasons discovered 3 potential offensive anchors in Russell, Dinwiddie and Levert, WeHam need to unearth their own versions of those players. We'd lack the opportunity to pick up an asset like Russell for free, since we would have lost the capacity to trade Vuc.

But without Vuc and Ross, as I've mentioned in other threads, we'd have $16M in cap space to make offers to free agents, or to take on extra salary in trades. You can use Fournier + that cap space + a pick to try and land a potential lead scorer another team is shopping. You could use that cap space on a couple of low cost additions like Evans or Bradley, etc.

I think the prospect of losing Vuc has clouded people's opinions of Clifford's ability to get a team to unite and play together, and WeHam's ability to find alternative routes. They also seem to have forgotten that Vuc alone didn't get us to the playoffs. He's one third of the combo of Vuc, Ross and Clifford that were the driving force to our team's run this season. Vuc just happened to have the biggest numbers and a reserve allstar title.

[Bensational]

I think very few rookies "deserve" to start. You could put up massive stats and still have horrible efficiency and be a negative on the court. Bamba early on was actually on the higher end of rookies as far as impact, but as his play faltered, he slipped a lot, hence why some numbers look awful for him. I'm not blaming all of that on him, with Simms and Grant "feeding" him the ball, but at least you could tell where his areas need to improve. Conditioning, strength, activity, picking his spots better. All of that needs to be and will be improved upon. But he did show flashes of pretty much everything you need and want in a modern big man. I wouldn't trade him for Ayton.

It's a philosophy of how to go about improving Bamba in game. I would say he deserves at least 20 minutes next year. Getting around 15-16 this year was fair considering how Vuc was playing and how Bamba was playing, but we can't Mario him and see glimpses of genius but not even know what we have until he's playing for another team. For every Mario who didn't realize their talents (well, he finally did at the end of this season with the Knicks), you can have a Tobias or Fournier who immediately play better once traded and are allowed to mess up and get a good amount of minutes.

Bamba, as a prospect, doesn't strike me as a potential franchise changer yet. For him to become that in this current era of ball, he'll need to become a C who can move with the ball like Jokic and Embiid - and even both of those guys have found themselves on the out for now. If he becomes a defensive anchor like Gasol, Gobert or Ben Wallace, that's certainly a franchise changing impact, but in this era it's much harder for a Piston's like defense to prevail. It's also worth noting that none of those guys were lottery picks. One was late 1st round, one 2nd round, and one went undrafted. That's why I place far less value in C's as focal points for a rebuild. The Suns and Kings, for example, really blew a layup with Doncic. That felt like the obvious choice, regardless of the talents they already had on their squads.

That doesn't mean there's a guarantee a guard/wing as a prospect is a sure thing, but it's where I'd be prioritising my attention. I think Birch has proven to be a perfectly serviceable big man to hold the door in the short term, and he'll come dirt cheap. We could run with him and another cheap big man without Vuc or Bamba and possibly get all we need out of that position. Then channel our investments into wings and the backcourt.

That's just my own personal philosophy though.

[pepe1991]

Problem is perception.
Vučević is allstar. One side overvalues what that means, other side undervalues what it means.

Putting lipstick on a pig doesn’t change the fact that you simply have an ugly pig.

Putting the honorable mention Allstate reserve label on Vuc doesn’t change the fact that we simply have an above average center on a roster deep with F/C prospect and lacking guard / wing talent.

well, in roster full of pigs, one is best

[pepe1991]

You have to be careful with youth and how much youth you can develop.
That's why lot of rebuilds go nowhere ( Suns, Kings for years, Magic during Oladipo ). Even Oladipo himself admited that with Magic inner competition hurted a team. It's just lot of unproven players trying to prove their value not by quality but quantity . Mostly by having bigger usage than they should and taking shots they should not take. But as long as they hit their target numbers (<16 ppg = star ) they are good to go.

There is no problem in starting Bamba if Vučević is gone, problem is if you start next year with Fultz, Bamba , 16 pick and Isaac, along Gordon, all fighting for usage /scoring on team that will probably be lottery bound, to add another rookie to make this fight for this imaginary "star" even more clear.

In reality, however, having 15-20 ppg scorer on 20 wins team really doesn't mean much. Jordan Clarkson this year averaged 17 points a game on Cavs, same with Hardaway and his 18 on Knicks and Jabari and his 14,5 on Bulls. It's just empty numbers that get them payed, when in reality all 3 of them are negative contributors on serious teams.

Boston inner struggle between players destroyed their roster this year.
Rozier flat out said that he is one of best PGs in nba and he sacrificed everything.
Irving said he is one of biggest stars out there.
I'm pretty sure Brown and Tatum belive they are also stars.
Two former allstars and their egos exist on that roster too ( Hayward, Horford).
Whole year long their chemistry was terrible because they tried to outshine each other more than play as unit.