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GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion

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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#141 » by MagicMatic » Sun Jun 2, 2019 11:27 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:Why is saying that "signing Vuc will help the Magic" not anymore a sign of special clairvoyant powers than saying "signing Vuc will hurt the Magic"?

Stop being a hypocrite. Your bias is equally as prevalent. The only difference is you are not taking any approach to alternate solutions so it's easy to take a backseat and criticize other ideas that may carry more risk/downside or more reward/upside.


My position has been that a competitive context is the most proven method to develop players and build up asset value. That is not my bias, its the philosophy of the best player development franchises in the NBA, which also happen to be THE BEST franchises in the NBA. In fact the first time I heard about that research was at a panel discussion at the Sports Analytics Conference dedicated to player development. That's the statement and position of the best player development minds in the NBA...not my bias.

Within that context, I have stated that retaining Vucevic and Ross is the most realistic way for the Magic to maintain that competitive context. But I have also even proposed Mike Conley trade and stated a key reason for that was to avoid reliance on Vucevic to maintain that competitive context. It has always been about the competitive context specifically for player development and asset management purposes.

Stop trying to spin it like its about some Vuc fanboy bias in order to draw attention away from fact that you and MagicMatic's theories keep getting destroyed.


It’s not a “theory” that there is no star foundational player in this roster to build around. Nobody that is a fan of the Magic would say that there is a clear and definite go-to option, moving into the future of this franchise, with any real certainty.

You are proposing we acquire Conley to play with Vuc as a way of acquiring the star player we are missing. That assertion neither addresses the lack of a primary foundational piece, nor does it better utilize the draft as an option. It’s merely stating that keeping competitive attracts free agents and better develops players. Player development is based on the individual and their ceiling.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#142 » by NotACat » Sun Jun 2, 2019 11:31 pm

MasterGMer wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:Why is saying that "signing Vuc will help the Magic" not anymore a sign of special clairvoyant powers than saying "signing Vuc will hurt the Magic"?

Stop being a hypocrite. Your bias is equally as prevalent. The only difference is you are not taking any approach to alternate solutions so it's easy to take a backseat and criticize other ideas that may carry more risk/downside or more reward/upside.


My position has been that a competitive context is the most proven method to develop players and build up asset value. That is not my bias, its the philosophy of the best player development franchises in the NBA, which also happen to be THE BEST franchises in the NBA. In fact the first time I heard about that research was at a panel discussion at the Sports Analytics Conference dedicated to player development. That's the statement and position of the best player development minds in the NBA...not my bias.

Within that context, I have stated that retaining Vucevic and Ross is the most realistic way for the Magic to maintain that competitive context. But I have also even proposed Mike Conley trade and stated a key reason for that was to avoid reliance on Vucevic to maintain that competitive context. It has always been about the competitive context specifically for player development and asset management purposes.

Stop trying to spin it like its about some Vuc fanboy bias in order to draw attention away from fact that you and MagicMatic's theories keep getting destroyed.


I am with you ezzzp. The best way for player development is winning and playing meaningful games.

But every player has a ceiling and that is why not every team can develop like the "splash brothers" or "GDP"s. That is why we have to go through draft to find that ceiling of players. And then winning context comes into place and we build a winning and contending team.

Both are needed. Not just tanking for players nor winning as much as you can. But I am with you ezzzy with Conley trade and resigning Vuc and Ross.

Don't you mean we have to go to the playoffs to find the ceiling of our players? We can't learn a players ceiling in the draft, only their floor.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#143 » by BadMofoPimp » Sun Jun 2, 2019 11:37 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:Rarely do teams just allow assets to walk away unless they are able to sign equivalent or better value. I doubt Ross and/or Vooch go anywhere.


Question: Are the Bobcats happy today that they gave Batum that contract to keep him in town?


If Sacramento or whoever else throws a major offer at Vuc we have to think long term.


That is short sited thinking if you think every player who signs their good contract ends up like Batum. And, there could always be a sign n trade as well if the price is too high, which I doubt will happen. Be prepared for long term Vooch!
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#144 » by MasterGMer » Sun Jun 2, 2019 11:43 pm

NotACat wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
My position has been that a competitive context is the most proven method to develop players and build up asset value. That is not my bias, its the philosophy of the best player development franchises in the NBA, which also happen to be THE BEST franchises in the NBA. In fact the first time I heard about that research was at a panel discussion at the Sports Analytics Conference dedicated to player development. That's the statement and position of the best player development minds in the NBA...not my bias.

Within that context, I have stated that retaining Vucevic and Ross is the most realistic way for the Magic to maintain that competitive context. But I have also even proposed Mike Conley trade and stated a key reason for that was to avoid reliance on Vucevic to maintain that competitive context. It has always been about the competitive context specifically for player development and asset management purposes.

Stop trying to spin it like its about some Vuc fanboy bias in order to draw attention away from fact that you and MagicMatic's theories keep getting destroyed.


I am with you ezzzp. The best way for player development is winning and playing meaningful games.

But every player has a ceiling and that is why not every team can develop like the "splash brothers" or "GDP"s. That is why we have to go through draft to find that ceiling of players. And then winning context comes into place and we build a winning and contending team.

Both are needed. Not just tanking for players nor winning as much as you can. But I am with you ezzzy with Conley trade and resigning Vuc and Ross.

Don't you mean we have to go to the playoffs to find the ceiling of our players? We can't learn a players ceiling in the draft, only their floor.


Find players with a high ceiling...

That is what I meant
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#145 » by MagicFan101 » Sun Jun 2, 2019 11:57 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:Rarely do teams just allow assets to walk away unless they are able to sign equivalent or better value. I doubt Ross and/or Vooch go anywhere.


Question: Are the Bobcats happy today that they gave Batum that contract to keep him in town?


If Sacramento or whoever else throws a major offer at Vuc we have to think long term.


That is short sited thinking if you think every player who signs their good contract ends up like Batum. And, there could always be a sign n trade as well if the price is too high, which I doubt will happen. Be prepared for long term Vooch!


Batum and Vuc are both very good players ... neither is elite.

But a small market team felt they had no choice but to be held hostage to their fringe all-star rather than look long term. THAT is short sighted.

We cannot do the same.

If no such mega offer comes from another team then I welcome Vuc back on a FAIR contract.


A sign and trade is a very different situation entirely.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#146 » by ezzzp » Mon Jun 3, 2019 1:37 am

MagicFan101 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
Question: Are the Bobcats happy today that they gave Batum that contract to keep him in town?


If Sacramento or whoever else throws a major offer at Vuc we have to think long term.


That is short sited thinking if you think every player who signs their good contract ends up like Batum. And, there could always be a sign n trade as well if the price is too high, which I doubt will happen. Be prepared for long term Vooch!


Batum and Vuc are both very good players ... neither is elite.

But a small market team felt they had no choice but to be held hostage to their fringe all-star rather than look long term. THAT is short sighted.

We cannot do the same.

If no such mega offer comes from another team then I welcome Vuc back on a FAIR contract.

A sign and trade is a very different situation entirely.


Certain markets just flat out can't afford prolonged rebuilds and thus hemorrhaging their top players becomes fiscally unsustainable. Charlotte is one of those teams and they have never been able to attract free agents + had a history of losing their players to bigger markets. So at the time retaining Batum was a huge step for that franchise.

Batum was 26, a point wing and elite defender who at that point could shoot 3's. He was coming off of a 15p/6a/6r season and was just entering his prime. Retaining him was a no brainer.

Unfortunately for Charlotte, his free agency happened the summer that the salary cap exploded. Two thirds of the NBA had at minimum one max slot to offer and several teams with two and three max slots. Because of the salary cap spike, teams went from a $70m salary cap in 2015-16 to an $85m salary floor the next year. To make matters worse for Charlotte, there were very few wings on the market. Batum was the best reasonably available young wing on the market and teams were desperate to spend their newfound money.

That cap context and market for centers is nowhere near that this summer. So I'd be very surprised if a team throws crazy money at Vucevic.

So far Dallas and Sacramento are rumored to want him...but prior to the moratorium period that type of rumor is coming from agents. It works against team interest to let other teams know who they're going to make a pitch to when free agency begins.

The question is what is a "fair" contract in the eyes of the FO.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#147 » by Skin » Mon Jun 3, 2019 7:22 am

MagicFan101 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:Rarely do teams just allow assets to walk away unless they are able to sign equivalent or better value. I doubt Ross and/or Vooch go anywhere.


Question: Are the Bobcats happy today that they gave Batum that contract to keep him in town?


If Sacramento or whoever else throws a major offer at Vuc we have to think long term.

I'd rather have Batum than Fournier, but that is just another classic example in a long line of examples where teams get screwed overpaying for a player. ezzzp doesn't want to hear it because it destroys his reality. No surprise to me that he wants another example of a hot mess in Mike Conley's contract. The guy literally cannot stay healthy. Let me guess, he wants John Wall as a backup?
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#148 » by Skin » Mon Jun 3, 2019 7:35 am

BadMofoPimp wrote:Rarely do teams just allow assets to walk away unless they are able to sign equivalent or better value. I doubt Ross and/or Vooch go anywhere.

They are UFAs. They can go anywhere they want. UFAs choose new teams all the time. Not sure what you're talking about.

RFA is more along the lines you are talking about.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#149 » by pepe1991 » Mon Jun 3, 2019 7:50 am

Skin wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:Rarely do teams just allow assets to walk away unless they are able to sign equivalent or better value. I doubt Ross and/or Vooch go anywhere.


Question: Are the Bobcats happy today that they gave Batum that contract to keep him in town?


If Sacramento or whoever else throws a major offer at Vuc we have to think long term.

I'd rather have Batum than Fournier, but that is just another classic example in a long line of examples where teams get screwed overpaying for a player. ezzzp doesn't want to hear it because it destroys his reality. No surprise to me that he wants another example of a hot mess in Mike Conley's contract. The guy literally cannot stay healthy. Let me guess, he wants John Wall as a backup?


I'd rather have Batum than Fournier,

Nobody objective would , but hey...

examples where teams get screwed overpaying for a player

He is career 11,8 ppg player , who prior his contract year averaged 9 points a game.
Everybody knew that 5 years contract is too long for him.

No surprise to me that he wants another example of a hot mess in Mike Conley's contract. The guy literally cannot stay healthy.

Can you elaborate what's so terrible about Conley's contract?
Cannot stay healthy? Interesting , guy played 70 games this year, through his career played below 53 games once (mostly because they tanked that year )
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#150 » by Skin » Mon Jun 3, 2019 8:49 am

ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:Why is saying that "signing Vuc will help the Magic" not anymore a sign of special clairvoyant powers than saying "signing Vuc will hurt the Magic"?

Stop being a hypocrite. Your bias is equally as prevalent. The only difference is you are not taking any approach to alternate solutions so it's easy to take a backseat and criticize other ideas that may carry more risk/downside or more reward/upside.


My position has been that a competitive context is the most proven method to develop players and build up asset value. That is not my bias, its the philosophy of the best player development franchises in the NBA, which also happen to be THE BEST franchises in the NBA. In fact the first time I heard about that research was at a panel discussion at the Sports Analytics Conference dedicated to player development. That's the statement and position of the best player development minds in the NBA...not my bias.

Within that context, I have stated that retaining Vucevic and Ross is the most realistic way for the Magic to maintain that competitive context. But I have also even proposed Mike Conley trade and stated a key reason for that was to avoid reliance on Vucevic to maintain that competitive context. It has always been about the competitive context specifically for player development and asset management purposes.

Stop trying to spin it like its about some Vuc fanboy bias in order to draw attention away from fact that you and MagicMatic's theories keep getting destroyed.

The denial is pure. Of course you are Vuc fan boy. That's the reason why you keep ignoring what is being told to you over and over again.

If you were solely about staying competitive, then you would at least be open to the option that the cap savings from not spending money on Vuc over the term of his next contract could be used in other ways that could still keep the Magic competitive. Resigning Vuc is NOT the only option.

Of course your rebuttle is "How will you spend it? How do you know that person will help? Do you have clairvoyant powers?" Yet, you bring up Conley and can't take what you dish.

Nobody has argued that we should start tanking again. Just because you think that will happen if we let Vuc go (clairvoyance btw) doesn't it make it the only possible outcome. Don't get confused... Yes, some people have said we should've tanked harder in the past 5-7 years of this era of Magic basketball... but that is a different argument than the talks related to us going forward.

My stance has been that we should try to be competitive, but in a way that supports WeHam's vision and timeline of the players that they already invested highly in. Isaac and Bamba are far and away their 2 strongest core pieces. In only his second year, Isaac is already a starter providing an impact. If Jonathon Simmons were here, Isaac would've been unnecessarily sharing minutes with him. Bamba may only need another year or two to start being a heavily impactful player.

I'm open to Vuc on a 2-3 year deal, but I think the reality is he will be looking for a 4-5 year deal and that is simply a roadblock. AG has been WeHam's biggest and longest contract signing. I would suggest bringing in players similar to AG's age range that can grow together with him... Or if our options at 16 are not entirely desirable, trade up in this year's draft to secure another strong core player... Or draft players who have more years in college and are more ready to help right away... Or trade our vets for other vets that fit better along WeHam's vision for the make up of their team. None of those suggestions are pro-tank (which is the belief you think I have at this point).
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#151 » by Bensational » Mon Jun 3, 2019 9:12 am

There are a few of waves of PGs right now who are in their primes, who will likely continue having a strong impact over the next 3-6 seasons. The trick for us will be to identify who's up and coming that can compete with them whilst they're in their primes, but be in a position to inherit a top tier ranking as a PG once the others decline.

The below list is declining in age, not value/impact.

DECLINING
These guys are elite, but will decline severely over the coming 2 seasons.
Chris Paul, 34
Kyle Lowry, 33
Goran Dragic, 33

PRIME
These are the PGs at the top of their games, with some already in decline. 2-5 years impact.
Stephen Curry, 31
Mike Conley, 31
Darren Collison, 31
D.J. Augustin, 31
Russell Westbrook, 30
Patty Mills, 30
Derrick Rose, 30
Jeff Teague, 30
Patrick Beverley, 30
Jeremy Lin, 30
Kemba Walker, 29
Reggie Jackson, 29



NEXT WAVE PRIME PGs
Already in their prime and operating at their peak. 4-6 years impact.
Damian Lillard, 28
John Wall, 28
Ricky Rubio, 28
Kyrie Irving, 27
CJ McCollum, 27
Tomas Satoransky, 27


NEXT GEN
Entering their primes, some of these will be the names that replace the players on the decline within the next couple of seasons. 7-8 years impact.
Terry Rozier, 25
Dennis Schroder, 25
Fred VanVleet, 25
Elfrid Payton, 25
Kris Dunn, 25
Marcus Smart, 25
Derrick White, 24


JUNIORS
Early stages of careers. Some already performing at high levels, some have yet to have a serious opportunity as a featured starting PG, and some will be out of the league eventually.
Dante Exum, 23
D'Angelo Russell, 23
Monte Morris, 23
Emmanuel Mudiay, 23
Tyus Jones, 23
Jamal Murray, 22
De'Aaron Fox, 21
Lonzo Ball, 21
Dennis Smith Jr, 21
Trae Young, 20
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, 20


______________________________________________________________________________

I'm counting like 11 of the older PGs whom I expect to either be out of the league or to have declined to bench roles within the next 2-4 years.

For me, the names I like are in that 23-25 age bracket. Old enough and experienced enough to play now at a reasonable (if not high) standard, but still plenty of years and growth left in them. The really appealing ones seem unattainable.

White, Morris, and Smart are names I really like who seem attainable due to circumstance. Russell would be a big upgrade over them but it would take some serious planets aligning to make that happen.

In the next 2-4 years, as the older players start moving on, I think at least one of those 3 will have worked their way up into a top 10 PG position. They're the perfect age to fit with our young team and future windows.

And if Fultz comes through, we can run a dual PG backcourt like Portland and Brooklyn do.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#152 » by pepe1991 » Mon Jun 3, 2019 9:39 am

Even if you let Vuc and Ross go, you won't have cap space to do anything major this year.
Matter of fact amount of money that Magic can offer to somebody else would probably give them in return player worst than Ross, let alone Vučević AND Ross.

By the time Magic have cap space ( 2020) , free agency sucks and there will be nobody worth offering money. That's why trades for proven players make sense this year.

It's not even questionable where will Magic end up without Ross and Vuc. Deep lottery. Only blind peron who didn't watch single game this year would think opposite .

Since salary cap will expend from $108M in 2019-20, to $116M next year , and DJ Augustin and Mozgov exp deals, Vuc and Ross new contracts won't impact salary that much at all.

IF Fultz won't play SL and isn't close to first round pick level of talent, declining 4th year makes sense.
In that scenario Magic would free up $36M with him ,Dj and MOzgov gone. Approximately similar salary that Vuc and Ross will command (and get ) .

People like Skin just have blind hate ( or love ) for XY player for years and try to put some "objective "outlook on something that is biased hate for at least 5 years . But i remember him riding his Biyombo bandwagon ,for same reasons why he rides Bamba's one. To get rid of Vučević.

Everyone can serve blind biased hate as objective opinion, it's important to see through bulls*** to get to the bottom of it.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#153 » by basketballRob » Mon Jun 3, 2019 11:37 am

MagicFan101 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:Rarely do teams just allow assets to walk away unless they are able to sign equivalent or better value. I doubt Ross and/or Vooch go anywhere.


Question: Are the Bobcats happy today that they gave Batum that contract to keep him in town?


If Sacramento or whoever else throws a major offer at Vuc we have to think long term.
I remember Toronto going to the conference finals and giving the Cavs a great series with Biz.

When his price tag was too high they let him walk and it was better in the long term.

If Vuc walks we just have to replace him. Once you have a way to play you just replace players you lose.

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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#154 » by MagicFan101 » Mon Jun 3, 2019 12:29 pm

basketballRob wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:Rarely do teams just allow assets to walk away unless they are able to sign equivalent or better value. I doubt Ross and/or Vooch go anywhere.


Question: Are the Bobcats happy today that they gave Batum that contract to keep him in town?


If Sacramento or whoever else throws a major offer at Vuc we have to think long term.
I remember Toronto going to the conference finals and giving the Cavs a great series with Biz.

When his price tag was too high they let him walk and it was better in the long term.

If Vuc walks we just have to replace him. Once you have a way to play you just replace players you lose.

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Correct and consider the quality of players we are discussing here. Are any of them ELITE? Vuc? Batum? Frickin Biz? Hell no.


Orlando losing a Shaq or T-Mac or Dwight is devastating.

OKC losing Durant is devastating.

Cleveland losing Lebron is devastating.


... losing Vuc is disappointing but it just might be the best option if that is how the cards fall.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#155 » by MagicMatic » Mon Jun 3, 2019 3:27 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Even if you let Vuc and Ross go, you won't have cap space to do anything major this year.
Matter of fact amount of money that Magic can offer to somebody else would probably give them in return player worst than Ross, let alone Vučević AND Ross.

By the time Magic have cap space ( 2020) , free agency sucks and there will be nobody worth offering money. That's why trades for proven players make sense this year.


The people saying Orlando won’t have money for decent free agents are the same people crying about staggering rookie contracts to resign them. Orlando wont be players in free agency, Vuc or not, and will need to resign their more recent selections. Free agency won’t be an option as previously discussed because Orlando isn’t a competitor, doesn’t have unique generational talent, and the market wont be good. This leaves the draft and trades.

pepe1991 wrote:It's not even questionable where will Magic end up without Ross and Vuc. Deep lottery. Only blind peron who didn't watch single game this year would think opposite .

Since salary cap will expend from $108M in 2019-20, to $116M next year , and DJ Augustin and Mozgov exp deals, Vuc and Ross new contracts won't impact salary that much at all.


You don’t know that. Yes, they were both big parts of this year’s season. Does that mean Orlando cant build around JI, AG, and Bamba? No. There are too many unanswered questions on this roster to maintain the status quo and be afraid to give top draft pick selections impactful minutes moving forward to prove themselves. Clifford would have to figure something out if Ross and Vuc hypothetically left regardless.

There is no player moving forward that you could say carries this team offensively. It was an issue all season down the stretch of games. Finding that player is more important to this franchises future than retaining players that have been the focal part of the offense for almost a decade simply out of fear.

pepe1991 wrote:IF Fultz won't play SL and isn't close to first round pick level of talent, declining 4th year makes sense.
In that scenario Magic would free up $36M with him ,Dj and MOzgov gone. Approximately similar salary that Vuc and Ross will command (and get ) .


The bigger issue if Fultz doesn’t pan out, and DJ is gone, would be finding the back court for the future. That is much more important moving forward in that scenario. You’ve already stated that doesn’t happen in free agency, so how does that get addressed? By trading some of the youth or drafting a player of real consequence.

pepe1991 wrote:People like Skin just have blind hate ( or love ) for XY player for years and try to put some "objective "outlook on something that is biased hate for at least 5 years . But i remember him riding his Biyombo bandwagon ,for same reasons why he rides Bamba's one. To get rid of Vučević.

Everyone can serve blind biased hate as objective opinion, it's important to see through bulls*** to get to the bottom of it.


Why is wanting to move on from Vuc “hate”? You don’t think some on this board and other Magic fans are tired of watching the same routine every single year? The ceiling of this team with relying on Vuc, and Ross off the bench, is an extremely low one. It’s going to be much lower with repeat performances from Evans latest season, inconsistency from DJ, and the possibility of Fultz not panning out. That’s simply not good enough.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#156 » by MagicMatic » Mon Jun 3, 2019 6:52 pm

Bensational wrote:There are a few of waves of PGs right now who are in their primes, who will likely continue having a strong impact over the next 3-6 seasons. The trick for us will be to identify who's up and coming that can compete with them whilst they're in their primes, but be in a position to inherit a top tier ranking as a PG once the others decline.

The below list is declining in age, not value/impact.

DECLINING
These guys are elite, but will decline severely over the coming 2 seasons.
Chris Paul, 34
Kyle Lowry, 33
Goran Dragic, 33

PRIME
These are the PGs at the top of their games, with some already in decline. 2-5 years impact.
Stephen Curry, 31
Mike Conley, 31
Darren Collison, 31
D.J. Augustin, 31
Russell Westbrook, 30
Patty Mills, 30
Derrick Rose, 30
Jeff Teague, 30
Patrick Beverley, 30
Jeremy Lin, 30
Kemba Walker, 29
Reggie Jackson, 29



NEXT WAVE PRIME PGs
Already in their prime and operating at their peak. 4-6 years impact.
Damian Lillard, 28
John Wall, 28
Ricky Rubio, 28
Kyrie Irving, 27
CJ McCollum, 27
Tomas Satoransky, 27


NEXT GEN
Entering their primes, some of these will be the names that replace the players on the decline within the next couple of seasons. 7-8 years impact.
Terry Rozier, 25
Dennis Schroder, 25
Fred VanVleet, 25
Elfrid Payton, 25
Kris Dunn, 25
Marcus Smart, 25
Derrick White, 24


JUNIORS
Early stages of careers. Some already performing at high levels, some have yet to have a serious opportunity as a featured starting PG, and some will be out of the league eventually.
Dante Exum, 23
D'Angelo Russell, 23
Monte Morris, 23
Emmanuel Mudiay, 23
Tyus Jones, 23
Jamal Murray, 22
De'Aaron Fox, 21
Lonzo Ball, 21
Dennis Smith Jr, 21
Trae Young, 20
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, 20


______________________________________________________________________________

I'm counting like 11 of the older PGs whom I expect to either be out of the league or to have declined to bench roles within the next 2-4 years.

For me, the names I like are in that 23-25 age bracket. Old enough and experienced enough to play now at a reasonable (if not high) standard, but still plenty of years and growth left in them. The really appealing ones seem unattainable.

White, Morris, and Smart are names I really like who seem attainable due to circumstance. Russell would be a big upgrade over them but it would take some serious planets aligning to make that happen.

In the next 2-4 years, as the older players start moving on, I think at least one of those 3 will have worked their way up into a top 10 PG position. They're the perfect age to fit with our young team and future windows.

And if Fultz comes through, we can run a dual PG backcourt like Portland and Brooklyn do.


Next Gen and Juniors should be the prime targets if Orlando isn’t successful drafting.

Next wave crop are on bigger contracts or too valued sans Satoransky.

Prime and Declining would be solutions short term, but those crops are likely looking for contention before they retire and will not consider signing if that isn’t the case or they aren’t getting paid.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#157 » by ezzzp » Mon Jun 3, 2019 7:38 pm

Skin wrote:The denial is pure. Of course you are Vuc fan boy. That's the reason why you keep ignoring what is being told to you over and over again.

If you were solely about staying competitive, then you would at least be open to the option that the cap savings from not spending money on Vuc over the term of his next contract could be used in other ways that could still keep the Magic competitive. Resigning Vuc is NOT the only option.

Of course your rebuttle is "How will you spend it? How do you know that person will help? Do you have clairvoyant powers?" Yet, you bring up Conley and can't take what you dish.

Nobody has argued that we should start tanking again. Just because you think that will happen if we let Vuc go (clairvoyance btw) doesn't it make it the only possible outcome. Don't get confused... Yes, some people have said we should've tanked harder in the past 5-7 years of this era of Magic basketball... but that is a different argument than the talks related to us going forward.

My stance has been that we should try to be competitive, but in a way that supports WeHam's vision and timeline of the players that they already invested highly in. Isaac and Bamba are far and away their 2 strongest core pieces. In only his second year, Isaac is already a starter providing an impact. If Jonathon Simmons were here, Isaac would've been unnecessarily sharing minutes with him. Bamba may only need another year or two to start being a heavily impactful player.

I'm open to Vuc on a 2-3 year deal, but I think the reality is he will be looking for a 4-5 year deal and that is simply a roadblock. AG has been WeHam's biggest and longest contract signing. I would suggest bringing in players similar to AG's age range that can grow together with him... Or if our options at 16 are not entirely desirable, trade up in this year's draft to secure another strong core player... Or draft players who have more years in college and are more ready to help right away... Or trade our vets for other vets that fit better along WeHam's vision for the make up of their team. None of those suggestions are pro-tank (which is the belief you think I have at this point).


Stop trying to change the topic to hide that you (and MagicMatic and Martinzisfraud) keep getting pulverized by people with actual bbIQ. LMAO and now you are trying to paint me as a Vucevic fanboy? :lol: Wow, you really are getting desperate. That's almost as hilarious as this closeted-tanker nonsense...nobody believes you.

I will NEVER agree with your obsession for a treadmill bottom feeder composed only of <23 year olds that learn to play for honor of "best at losing."

There is no confusion, you and handful of closet-tankers aren't fooling anyone with what you want. In 32 games, Isaac and Bamba had a comical -20.5 NETRtg when on floor together. When they shared floor with Gordon that NETRtg plummeted even further into the abyss to a -32.5 NETRtg. If WeHam handed keys to them last season that would have meant a tanking season, its not that difficult to see what it is you want team to do.

Isaac is only a starter because his poor offense was being scaffolded primarily by Vucevic. An inexperienced poor 3P%-D player, that can't create for himself, is only a starter if 2-3 of the other starters (aka the vets) are the focus of the offensive system...at least if winning games is the goal.

Your stance has never been to stay competitive, LMAO. You and MagicMatic/Martinzisfraud have complained endlessly about the FO's patient approach...and now you are trying to pass off "their vision and timeline?" smh. Westman and Hammond's past history and their actions with the Magic are ABSOLUTELY not in line with yours. If it was they would have traded Vucevic and Ross, not had an evaluation year, not pushed for the playoffs etc. But nice try to spin that LMAO.

You are constantly complaining that there is no "centerpiece," yet you use gimmick word like timeline as backbone of your pov. The term timeline is even more irrelevant without a franchise player in place. Before that its only a word uttered by PR departments and beginners who don't understand actual contract cycles and player movement in the NBA.

Once the franchise player is set, that's when you start to discuss timeline. But its not about matching age of that franchise player. Its about aligning contract cycles/peak performance sweet spots. Those rarely align with the age of franchise player, in fact its usually the opposite where proven vet talent is added to augment the inexperience to maximize that franchise players time with the team.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#158 » by ezzzp » Mon Jun 3, 2019 7:47 pm

Skin wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:Rarely do teams just allow assets to walk away unless they are able to sign equivalent or better value. I doubt Ross and/or Vooch go anywhere.


Question: Are the Bobcats happy today that they gave Batum that contract to keep him in town?


If Sacramento or whoever else throws a major offer at Vuc we have to think long term.

I'd rather have Batum than Fournier, but that is just another classic example in a long line of examples where teams get screwed overpaying for a player. ezzzp doesn't want to hear it because it destroys his reality. No surprise to me that he wants another example of a hot mess in Mike Conley's contract. The guy literally cannot stay healthy. Let me guess, he wants John Wall as a backup?


That's BS. My reality is same philosophy of the best NBA franchises and best minds in BB...your reality is based on failed tank gimmicks and chasing bb trends pushed by bloggers and mainstream media chasing clicks.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#159 » by ezzzp » Mon Jun 3, 2019 8:00 pm

basketballRob wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:Rarely do teams just allow assets to walk away unless they are able to sign equivalent or better value. I doubt Ross and/or Vooch go anywhere.


Question: Are the Bobcats happy today that they gave Batum that contract to keep him in town?


If Sacramento or whoever else throws a major offer at Vuc we have to think long term.
I remember Toronto going to the conference finals and giving the Cavs a great series with Biz.

When his price tag was too high they let him walk and it was better in the long term.

If Vuc walks we just have to replace him. Once you have a way to play you just replace players you lose.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app


Biyombo was a bench player, not the reason Toronto were in the playoffs. That's not even remotely close to same situation. Letting DeRozan or Lowry walk for zero return would be the similar comparison.

You also don't just "replace" a 20/10 guy at peak prime, one who just finished putting up elite advanced metric numbers and was the focal point of your system and anchored a top 10 defense. The way the Magic played was highly reliant on Vucevic's unique and very difficult to replace skill set.

Free agents don't usually flock to small market teams that just lost their best player. They know where that team is headed - only people in denial think that a top free agent will sign to a projected lottery team without the cap space to even offer max money.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#160 » by yoyojw17 » Mon Jun 3, 2019 8:19 pm

My philosophy isn't that this team is broken... it's just not complete. We made HUGE strides with the current roster with the current level of talent. Players like ross, vuc and DJ are part of the stability of what this team has... well... Ross is volatile... fournier had a down year and DJ and vuc were rocks all season. They are the ones that drive this team. Isaac, Gordon, Bamba and Fultz are the things that will drive this team over the edge. Adding upgrades to our starting lineup and solidifying the bench unit to levels that were not not even attainable over the years. Throw in a solid/bright draft pick this team could be an MUCH better team than the team that shoved their way into the playoff last season. And it's the narratives of "teams gave up after the AllStar break because nobody cares about the last 1/3 of the season!!!" that takes away the credit that our guys deserved. But then some of these people were quick to .... "I want DLo on my team... throw him the max" for his continued strong showing down the stretch as he helped lead the Nets to their playoff birth. :-/ hmmmmm...? So yes... i see what we were at the end of the season as a strong team as they deserve... instead of watering it down and then trying to find other answers to swap players out for. I believe that the core players deserve the right to take this team to the next level. And if by chance things aren't working out, THEN you make the moves. Otherwise some of these players will become someone elses prize cuz we thought the grass was greener on the opposite side of the fence.

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