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GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion

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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#201 » by OrlandoNed » Tue Jun 4, 2019 1:48 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:8-) Not sure why people are complaining because Vooch already proved everyone all wrong!!! 8-)

When I thought he had finally turned a corner, Vuc proved me wrong by completely shriveling in the playoffs when things got tough and the lights were brightest.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#202 » by MagicMatic » Tue Jun 4, 2019 1:59 pm

pepe1991 wrote:...

This is epic... Funniest part is that same posters who are now pro tankers ( wheather they want to admit it or not ) couldn't stop crying how tank doesn't work in last 6 years.

My only conclusion, philosophical one, is that people come here , tired of life problems, to cry, complain and somehow stil enjoy missery. They are happiest when team wins 20 games so they can cry in gamethreads how everything sucks.


You should answer my response to you from a few pages ago instead of continuing to call people tankers that have already disproven your assessment. Y’know instead of coming up with hot takes and “Pepe conclusions” based on statistics you continually pull out of your ***.

This team has lacked elite go-to talent for years. It surprises you that people want to tap into any avenue possible to change that?
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#203 » by yoyojw17 » Tue Jun 4, 2019 2:11 pm

zaymon wrote:Guys we have a TON of young talent, now we want to earn respect as an organization and free agents destination. Vucevic is a perfect compliment to a superstar. I think it will all depend on the contract he demands. If we can get him between 20-24 M its a near no brainer. Optionally i would swap Bamba for Culver and draft Fernando or Bitadze as a backup. Chemistry between Bamba and Fultz could change that plan though.
Dj/Fultz
Fournier/Culver
Gordon/Ross
Isaac/Iwundu
Vucevic/Bitadze
For me its a secound round team with a lot of upside.

I'm perfectly fine letting Bamba grow to be what bamba is meant to be.... as long as the development program that they put him through is appropriate. Physical and skill wise. And i really do like the options still at 16 for guards.

Guess the question is... is Bamba + Langford/NAW/Porter/Johnson > Fernando/Bitadze + Culvert?
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#204 » by MagicMatic » Tue Jun 4, 2019 2:17 pm

yoyojw17 wrote:
zaymon wrote:Guys we have a TON of young talent, now we want to earn respect as an organization and free agents destination. Vucevic is a perfect compliment to a superstar. I think it will all depend on the contract he demands. If we can get him between 20-24 M its a near no brainer. Optionally i would swap Bamba for Culver and draft Fernando or Bitadze as a backup. Chemistry between Bamba and Fultz could change that plan though.
Dj/Fultz
Fournier/Culver
Gordon/Ross
Isaac/Iwundu
Vucevic/Bitadze
For me its a secound round team with a lot of upside.

I'm perfectly fine letting Bamba grow to be what bamba is meant to be.... as long as the development program that they put him through is appropriate. Physical and skill wise. And i really do like the options still at 16 for guards.

Guess the question is... is Bamba + Langford/NAW/Porter/Johnson > Fernando/Bitadze + Culvert?


In this hypothetical scenario I’m taking Culver and Fernando. Culver is a very capable scorer and Fernando is a beast that is already filled out at 6-10/ 240. Bitadze isn’t a scrub either.

NAW is the only one on the other list I feel like could maybe be good followed by possibly Langford.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#205 » by zaymon » Tue Jun 4, 2019 2:27 pm

yoyojw17 wrote:
zaymon wrote:Guys we have a TON of young talent, now we want to earn respect as an organization and free agents destination. Vucevic is a perfect compliment to a superstar. I think it will all depend on the contract he demands. If we can get him between 20-24 M its a near no brainer. Optionally i would swap Bamba for Culver and draft Fernando or Bitadze as a backup. Chemistry between Bamba and Fultz could change that plan though.
Dj/Fultz
Fournier/Culver
Gordon/Ross
Isaac/Iwundu
Vucevic/Bitadze
For me its a secound round team with a lot of upside.

I'm perfectly fine letting Bamba grow to be what bamba is meant to be.... as long as the development program that they put him through is appropriate. Physical and skill wise. And i really do like the options still at 16 for guards.

Guess the question is... is Bamba + Langford/NAW/Porter/Johnson > Fernando/Bitadze + Culvert?

I like Culver and Bitadze/Fernando more. They have less physical talent but a lot more basketball talent with still good/great athletecism. I think Culver with Ross would smash other teams reserves to pieces while still being versatile defensively. After 1-2 years Culver would replace Evan in starting 5 and really shine
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2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#206 » by pepe1991 » Tue Jun 4, 2019 2:34 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:...

This is epic... Funniest part is that same posters who are now pro tankers ( wheather they want to admit it or not ) couldn't stop crying how tank doesn't work in last 6 years.

My only conclusion, philosophical one, is that people come here , tired of life problems, to cry, complain and somehow stil enjoy missery. They are happiest when team wins 20 games so they can cry in gamethreads how everything sucks.


You should answer my response to you from a few pages ago instead of continuing to call people tankers that have already disproven your assessment. Y’know instead of coming up with hot takes and “Pepe conclusions” based on statistics you continually pull out of your ***.

This team has lacked elite go-to talent for years. It surprises you that people want to tap into any avenue possible to change that?


You claim that trades and lottery is only way Magic can get a star.
Yet you claim that you don't think tanking means getting start through draft- already proven crappy strategy . But it's not my problem that once you are presented with facts that prove your claim wrong- you play ignorant and ignore them.

Second, trades, for somebody who claims trades are way to go , i have not seen you post single trade idea in months.
So your whole purpose on this forum comes to :
-complaining without plan
- arguing with others
- actings you are smarter than others because they don't share your opinion


Why should i reply to your other post when i posted how trully terrible idea of search for a star through draft ,without tanking is, yet you just ignored it ? It's complete waste of time because you will keep repeating and de-bunking own claims with every new post.

Maybe you should tell us again how terrible idea is to hire Clifford and how bad he is, since that was your gimmick for crying last summer ( i didn't like it, but once guy proven to be good i admited i was wrong, it's too much to ask you and Skin whe it comes to Vučević ).


Also you and Skin played " tank hard " gimmick last year as well. You and him literally have post where you +1 each other with picture of tank for Barrett, Reddish and Lillte.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1738700&p=69054995#p69054995 like here if you care about your past nuggets of wisdom.

It's so damn fitting that 2 guys you wanted to tank last season for are now on free fall because non of them showed any capability of playing college level offense, let alone NBA level offense.


Took me forever to find one of your epic trade proposal but here it is

Post#326 » by MagicMatic » Tue Jun 5, 2018 8:12 pm

Vuc + #41 for Gortat + #15.

Wizards are in win now mode and need more scoring options outside of Beal/Wall.

#6 MPJr
#15 K. Huerter/ Hutchinson
#35 Elie Okobo

Orlando gets two much needed scoring wings, an athletic young point guard that fits WeHams draft agenda, and reinforcement defensively down low with a beloved former magician that wants to be back in Orlando.


Ouch. This did not age well :lol: :lol:
oh and 15 pick ended up being some dude named Troy Brown, i'm sure he has star written all over him :roll:

It's a damn shame that Magic missed on broken back guy and scorer who needs 9 shots to score 9 points. What a mistake
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#207 » by UCFJayBird » Tue Jun 4, 2019 3:30 pm

Let's ease back on the sarcasm and veiled attacks and insults guys.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#208 » by yoyojw17 » Tue Jun 4, 2019 3:39 pm

zaymon wrote:
yoyojw17 wrote:
zaymon wrote:Guys we have a TON of young talent, now we want to earn respect as an organization and free agents destination. Vucevic is a perfect compliment to a superstar. I think it will all depend on the contract he demands. If we can get him between 20-24 M its a near no brainer. Optionally i would swap Bamba for Culver and draft Fernando or Bitadze as a backup. Chemistry between Bamba and Fultz could change that plan though.
Dj/Fultz
Fournier/Culver
Gordon/Ross
Isaac/Iwundu
Vucevic/Bitadze
For me its a secound round team with a lot of upside.

I'm perfectly fine letting Bamba grow to be what bamba is meant to be.... as long as the development program that they put him through is appropriate. Physical and skill wise. And i really do like the options still at 16 for guards.

Guess the question is... is Bamba + Langford/NAW/Porter/Johnson > Fernando/Bitadze + Culvert?

I like Culver and Bitadze/Fernando more. They have less physical talent but a lot more basketball talent with still good/great athletecism. I think Culver with Ross would smash other teams reserves to pieces while still being versatile defensively. After 1-2 years Culver would replace Evan in starting 5 and really shine

Both options have great potential as they are young players. Haha... just happy with bamba... because i think once his body gets right... all will follow. I believe his ceiling is immense. And if we could get Langford at 16th....I WOULD BE EXCITED!!!!
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#209 » by MagicMatic » Tue Jun 4, 2019 4:05 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:...

This is epic... Funniest part is that same posters who are now pro tankers ( wheather they want to admit it or not ) couldn't stop crying how tank doesn't work in last 6 years.

My only conclusion, philosophical one, is that people come here , tired of life problems, to cry, complain and somehow stil enjoy missery. They are happiest when team wins 20 games so they can cry in gamethreads how everything sucks.


You should answer my response to you from a few pages ago instead of continuing to call people tankers that have already disproven your assessment. Y’know instead of coming up with hot takes and “Pepe conclusions” based on statistics you continually pull out of your ***.

This team has lacked elite go-to talent for years. It surprises you that people want to tap into any avenue possible to change that?


pepe1991 wrote:You claim that trades and lottery is only way Magic can get a star.
Yet you claim that you don't think tanking means getting start through draft- already proven crappy strategy . But it's not my problem that once you are presented with facts that prove your claim wrong- you play ignorant and ignore them.


I never made the assertion that Magic need to lose as much as possible to get the top pick of the draft. Point blank. In other threads this week you stated that we aren’t finding a star in the draft range we currently sit. However, you want to retain all of the players that prevent Orlando from utIlizing the draft, in the future, as a talent well. You don’t bring up valid points to disprove what I said when I’m telling you that you acquire talent through draft and trades. There is no other way with free agency being a dead end for the most part.

pepe1991 wrote:Second, trades, for somebody who claims trades are way to go , i have not seen you post single trade idea in months.
So your whole purpose on this forum comes to :
-complaining without plan
- arguing with others
- actings you are smarter than others because they don't share your opinion


I’ve “complained” about the plan when I see the same roster issues haven’t been solved in almost a decade and we continue to build an outdated offense, with limited options, while they draft one way defensive options. Seems like a legit argument to make as a fan of the Magic for my whole life.

You pepe, don’t get to validate my “purpose” on the forum merely because I don’t post hypothetical trade scenarios that end up meaning less than nothing. Should I instead argue with others while digging up and cherry picking meaningless stats to support a biased argument? You have that area already covered.

pepe1991 wrote:Why should i reply to your other post when i posted how trully terrible idea of search for a star through draft ,without tanking is, yet you just ignored it ? It's complete waste of time because you will keep repeating and de-bunking own claims with every new post.


Again, never said anything about tanking being the only way. The draft is an avenue and completely luck/circumstantial until selections are made. We could trade anyone on the team to balance a roster and build for the future. Those are the facts. There is no debunking because I’m frankly stating the possibilities and not even putting an opinion on it. Choosing not to bring back Vuc isn’t “tanking” despite what you and others want to believe.

pepe1991 wrote:Maybe you should tell us again how terrible idea is to hire Clifford and how bad he is, since that was your gimmick for crying last summer ( i didn't like it, but once guy proven to be good i admited i was wrong, it's too much to ask you and Skin whe it comes to Vučević ).


Also you and Skin played " tank hard " gimmick last year as well. You and him literally have post where you +1 each other with picture of tank for Barrett, Reddish and Lillte.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1738700&p=69054995#p69054995 like here if you care about your past nuggets of wisdom.

It's so damn fitting that 2 guys you wanted to tank last season for are now on free fall because non of them showed any capability of playing college level offense, let alone NBA level offense.


I stand by my assertion at the time of the Clifford hire. I can admit when I’m wrong unlike you who have to twist and turn everything into a slanted argument to appear correct at all times.

No, I didn’t like the hire after watching Skiles and Vogel’s abysmal years and knowing this organization reaches out to their closer relationships sooner than doing a thorough league wide search. It wasn’t a gimmick. It proved we were planning on doubling down on a Vuc led offense and weren’t making changes to the inherently flawed roster. Here we are after his disappearing act and a roster still largely made up of Hennigan guys.

Nobody thought we would make the playoffs this year. Not only that, but we were a handful of games from missing them. We won a stretch of about 4 games against good competition while their best players sat out. Do you even know what the uproar would be if we didn't make the playoffs like MIA or CHA? People would be pissed if we did despite it not mattering much either way.

Look at you digging up trade proposals from a year ago, when trading Vucevic made the most sense, instead of retaining him on a contract year to likely overpay him the following. Pretty funny that you are such a pro Vuc supporter this season and you continue to **** on most of the youth this roster currently has. I’m sure I could go dig up posts of you saying disparaging things about other players, but I won’t because I’m not that petty.

I stand by my trade proposal, in what was likely a thread about trade proposals. Why? Because we are now debating as to what is a good price for retaining a Center that DISAPPEARED in the playoffs when we could have packaged him for assets and not been debating in the first place. This after spending two back to back lottery picks on 6-11+ defensive oriented bigs in consecutive drafts.

If he walks, or isn’t retained, you will look silly for someone proposing that it would be better to have nothing than something. If he’s retained, you’ll get to rejoice in more Orlando Magic mediocrity for another 2-3 years as you watch boring .500 basketball and die a little inside knowing something bigger and better could have been built in the same timeframe.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#210 » by pepe1991 » Tue Jun 4, 2019 6:15 pm

I stand by my assertion at the time of the Clifford hire. I can admit when I’m wrong unlike you who have to twist and turn everything into a slanted argument to appear correct at all times.


I said i was wrong about Cliff hire after 20-30 games.

No, I didn’t like the hire after watching Skiles and Vogel’s abysmal years and knowing this organization reaches out to their closer relationships sooner than doing a thorough league widesearch. It wasn’t a gimmick. It proved we were planning on doubling down on a Vuc led offense and weren’t making changes to the inherently flawed roster. Here we are after his disappearing act and a roster still largely made up of Hennigan guys.

Vogel and Skiles took offense away from Vučević and failed misserably because of it. Basic logic: play offense through your best offensive player. I know it hurts you because it destroys your agenda but that's non of my problems ;)

Nobody thought we would make the playoffs this year. Not only that, but we were a handful of games from missing them. We won a stretch of about 4 games against good competition while their best players sat out.

All i can say to this is one big LOL
Magic made playoffs because they won enough games. That's how system works buddy.

Look at you digging up trade proposals from a year ago, when trading Vucevic made the most sense, instead of retaining him on a contract year to likely overpay him the following.

Because you are poster who claims that Magic can get star via draft, yet never proposes anything. So i picked your trade proposal to see how valuable is your way. I had good laugh. Thanks.

made the most sense, instead of retaining him on a contract year to likely overpay him the following. Pretty funny that you are such a pro Vuc supporter this season and you continue to **** on most of the youth this roster currently has. I’m sure I could go dig up posts of you saying disparaging things about other players, but I won’t because I’m not that petty.

Magic have 2 and half young players. One missed whole rookie year but 30 games, one played 30 games in 2 years, third is limited role player. That's reality.
Vučević is allstar. That's also reality that you refuse to grasp.

I stand by my trade proposal, in what was likely a thread about trade proposals. Why? Because we are now debating as to what is a good price for retaining a Center that DISAPPEARED in the playoffs when we could have packaged him for assets and not been debating in the first place. This after spending two back to back lottery picks on 6-11+ defensive oriented bigs in consecutive drafts.

So you still don't have no clue how to validate assets, again, that's your problem. I love how you ignore that Gasol gave Embiid, top 10 nba player and THE best nba center, who gets Shaq comparisons and is on his HOF path- trouble and limited him on 36% FG. But again, you prefer to stay ignorant and pretened that anything but your way- is wrong way.

If he walks, or isn’t retained, you will look silly for someone proposing that it would be better to have nothing than something. If he’s retained, you’ll get to rejoice in more Orlando Magic mediocrity for another 2-3 years as you watch boring .500 basketball and die a little inside knowing something bigger and better could have been built in the same timeframe.

If he leaves you will have your party parade until November, and until it's proven that team without him and Ross can't be competitive. Than you will shift to another direction and cry, moan, bi*** and complain like you always do. Than, next year you will pretend that you never posted any of this. Like you now want another big, yet last year you didn't want to draft Bamba because you didn't want another big. But now, since Vučević resign is legit option- you want another big in hope that will somehow move him. Sad and pitty.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#211 » by OrlandoNed » Tue Jun 4, 2019 6:28 pm

In B4 suspensions.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#212 » by MagicMatic » Tue Jun 4, 2019 6:45 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
I stand by my assertion at the time of the Clifford hire. I can admit when I’m wrong unlike you who have to twist and turn everything into a slanted argument to appear correct at all times.


I said i was wrong about Cliff hire after 20-30 games.

No, I didn’t like the hire after watching Skiles and Vogel’s abysmal years and knowing this organization reaches out to their closer relationships sooner than doing a thorough league widesearch. It wasn’t a gimmick. It proved we were planning on doubling down on a Vuc led offense and weren’t making changes to the inherently flawed roster. Here we are after his disappearing act and a roster still largely made up of Hennigan guys.

Vogel and Skiles took offense away from Vučević and failed misserably because of it. Basic logic: play offense through your best offensive player. I know it hurts you because it destroys your agenda but that's non of my problems ;)

Nobody thought we would make the playoffs this year. Not only that, but we were a handful of games from missing them. We won a stretch of about 4 games against good competition while their best players sat out.

All i can say to this is one big LOL
Magic made playoffs because they won enough games. That's how system works buddy.

Look at you digging up trade proposals from a year ago, when trading Vucevic made the most sense, instead of retaining him on a contract year to likely overpay him the following.

Because you are poster who claims that Magic can get star via draft, yet never proposes anything. So i picked your trade proposal to see how valuable is your way. I had good laugh. Thanks.

made the most sense, instead of retaining him on a contract year to likely overpay him the following. Pretty funny that you are such a pro Vuc supporter this season and you continue to **** on most of the youth this roster currently has. I’m sure I could go dig up posts of you saying disparaging things about other players, but I won’t because I’m not that petty.

Magic have 2 and half young players. One missed whole rookie year but 30 games, one played 30 games in 2 years, third is limited role player. That's reality.
Vučević is allstar. That's also reality that you refuse to grasp.

I stand by my trade proposal, in what was likely a thread about trade proposals. Why? Because we are now debating as to what is a good price for retaining a Center that DISAPPEARED in the playoffs when we could have packaged him for assets and not been debating in the first place. This after spending two back to back lottery picks on 6-11+ defensive oriented bigs in consecutive drafts.

So you still don't have no clue how to validate assets, again, that's your problem. I love how you ignore that Gasol gave Embiid, top 10 nba player and THE best nba center, who gets Shaq comparisons and is on his HOF path- trouble and limited him on 36% FG. But again, you prefer to stay ignorant and pretened that anything but your way- is wrong way.

If he walks, or isn’t retained, you will look silly for someone proposing that it would be better to have nothing than something. If he’s retained, you’ll get to rejoice in more Orlando Magic mediocrity for another 2-3 years as you watch boring .500 basketball and die a little inside knowing something bigger and better could have been built in the same timeframe.

If he leaves you will have your party parade until November, and until it's proven that team without him and Ross can't be competitive. Than you will shift to another direction and cry, moan, bi*** and complain like you always do. Than, next year you will pretend that you never posted any of this. Like you now want another big, yet last year you didn't want to draft Bamba because you didn't want another big. But now, since Vučević resign is legit option- you want another big in hope that will somehow move him. Sad and pitty.


What are you even blabbering on about? I just suggested in the same page that the draft AND trades land elite talent. Do you need me to hold your hand and go through every trade machine possibility for that to make sense for you? You could always just stick to your agenda of thinking I’m only pro-tank because you have nothing left to say. It’s not the case and that’s coming from me. I’m a pretty good source for what I believe. Trust me.

You are saying I don’t know how to validate assets, but you want to retain a Center for $20m +, that has proven nothing in the playoffs, in a market where they are nowhere near valued as such for playoff basketball as opposed to any other position on the court. LOL ok pepe.

I’ve only complained about how this roster doesn’t work effectively (which it hasn’t) for years. Terrible back court, no depth outside of Ross, no true point guard moving forward, log jammed big man rotation, archaic offensive system, and a questionable path toward talent acquisition. That’s not bi**ing for the sake of it. Those are all legitimate concerns moving forward. Hiding behind Vuc taking 16-20 shots per game isn’t a viable offense, doesnt have a high ceiling, nor does retaining him help in addressing these issues.

Lastly, what are you talking about with me wanting to draft a big? Because I said in a hypothetical scenario Fernando and Culver is a better option than Bamba and NAW? Big deal. I’d rather never draft a Center unless it’s a generational talent because you can find them on the waivers for cheap or rotting on benches leaguewide.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#213 » by pepe1991 » Tue Jun 4, 2019 9:13 pm

Magic terrible backcourt won't fix itself by letting Vučević go. Matter of fact it will be chain reaction as Ross has no reason to be on rebuild team at age of 28, so if Vuc is gone, we all know Ross is gone.
It's already well documented that Magic won't have salary cap, with or without Vučević to do anything now. Down the road, Vučević and Ross really won't impact salary flexibility all that much , due cap growth and ability to split ways with DJ, Fultz and Mozgov who free up $36M.

Magic, losing Vučević won't miraculously get new star just because they lost one. But could easly hurt value of other assets if they crumble under usage they can't handle ( that they barley can handle right now ).

But every time you are faced with facts like this, you turn blind eye and ignore it.

" That’s not bi**ing for the sake of it"
But it is, because you don't offer solution, your "solution" is to get rid of good player to get inferior players more space .Why ? Well, because ,reasons.

"You are saying I don’t know how to validate assets, but you want to retain a Center for $20m +, that has proven nothing in the playoffs,"
This is backpaddling argument at it's peak . You don't focus on core of the problem but final result. Yes , Vučević played poorly. But not because he is poor player but because Raptors had no reason to guard anybody but him and Ross.

And instad of focusing on fact that you have two players in your prime ,that need another great player along with devleoping youth AND additional roster upgrades, you want to hit reset button and hope against hope that somwhere, one day, you will find superstar . And you don't even know where and how and it seems that you are not really too bothered with it, it's just you wanting to reset things for sake of not being thredmill team.

You also didn't answer me few pages back, why you didn't consider Raptors thredmill team in 2017. You said they had Derozan and Lowry. Derozan is not allstar any more ( would never be on West) and Lowry should't be allstar any more. So ? Thredmill team at it's finest, yet you cherrypick what defines thredmill team when , depending how it fits your argument. Team that gets swept in second round TWICE is not far away from team that loses in 5 or 6 competitive games in first round. But again, it doesn't fit your agenda so you won't explain it.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#214 » by MasterGMer » Tue Jun 4, 2019 9:36 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Magic terrible backcourt won't fix itself by letting Vučević go. Matter of fact it will be chain reaction as Ross has no reason to be on rebuild team at age of 28, so if Vuc is gone, we all know Ross is gone.
It's already well documented that Magic won't have salary cap, with or without Vučević to do anything now. Down the road, Vučević and Ross really won't impact salary flexibility all that much , due cap growth and ability to split ways with DJ, Fultz and Mozgov who free up $36M.

Magic, losing Vučević won't miraculously get new star just because they lost one. But could easly hurt value of other assets if they crumble under usage they can't handle ( that they barley can handle right now ).

But every time you are faced with facts like this, you turn blind eye and ignore it.

" That’s not bi**ing for the sake of it"
But it is, because you don't offer solution, your "solution" is to get rid of good player to get inferior players more space .Why ? Well, because ,reasons.

"You are saying I don’t know how to validate assets, but you want to retain a Center for $20m +, that has proven nothing in the playoffs,"
This is backpaddling argument at it's peak . You don't focus on core of the problem but final result. Yes , Vučević played poorly. But not because he is poor player but because Raptors had no reason to guard anybody but him and Ross.

And instad of focusing on fact that you have two players in your prime ,that need another great player along with devleoping youth AND additional roster upgrades, you want to hit reset button and hope against hope that somwhere, one day, you will find superstar . And you don't even know where and how and it seems that you are not really too bothered with it, it's just you wanting to reset things for sake of not being thredmill team.

You also didn't answer me few pages back, why you didn't consider Raptors thredmill team in 2017. You said they had Derozan and Lowry. Derozan is not allstar any more ( would never be on West) and Lowry should't be allstar any more. So ? Thredmill team at it's finest, yet you cherrypick what defines thredmill team when , depending how it fits your argument. Team that gets swept in second round TWICE is not far away from team that loses in 5 or 6 competitive games in first round. But again, it doesn't fit your agenda so you won't explain it.


We have options. I think Orlando is planning for both ways, losing or not losing Vuc. I think it is common knowledge now that if Vuc is offered 30+ million or so, Magic have let him go. That is why you see the report of us interested in DRussell or Kemba Walker.

This upcoming year is Fournier's last year on contract if he decline his player option. I think Magic will trade him before the next trade deadline or this offseason. Along with Mozgov, those are trade assets for us and there is a legit chance we can improve this team this summer.

I disagree with Magicmatic, this team is not a thredmill team. We have plenty of young players. And who knows what kind of players they would become? Look at Siakam. Look at Victor Oladipo and even DRussell. Yes, they are not stars in the league now but it doesn't mean they won't. All we need to do is to improve this team and develop internally while eyeing for the chance on Trade and Draft.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#215 » by MagicMatic » Tue Jun 4, 2019 10:03 pm

pepe1991 wrote:

You also didn't answer me few pages back, why you didn't consider Raptors thredmill team in 2017. You said they had Derozan and Lowry. Derozan is not allstar any more ( would never be on West) and Lowry should't be allstar any more. So ? Thredmill team at it's finest, yet you cherrypick what defines thredmill team when , depending how it fits your argument. Team that gets swept in second round TWICE is not far away from team that loses in 5 or 6 competitive games in first round. But again, it doesn't fit your agenda so you won't explain it.


I did already answer your question. Derozen was an allstar since 13-14 and Lowry since 14-15. I don’t consider coming top 3 in the eastern conference and hovering around a .700 w/l % since 2015 a “treadmill team” or a having “failed seasons”. Sure, getting swept in the first round in 2013 and 2014 isn’t ideal, but neither of those rosters were deep or talented enough. Then again, that’s my perspective and just how I view it. Spin that however you want.

“Treadmill” teams are teams that either barely make the playoffs, or get killed in the first round, which gives them less valuable draft picks and isn’t considered a “winning situation”. Having less room to acquire talent and solve the issues they run into in the regular season and post season further highlights this. Detroit is a perfect example of “treadmill team” being locked into huge bloated contracts, poor draft picks, and no real way of getting off unless they can offload some assets. But “tHeY mAdE ThE PlAyoFfs” right? Ask any Detroit fan whether they would rather have not made the playoffs or move up 5-6 picks in the draft. What do you think their answer would be? 4 years from now they wouldn’t even remember who was on their “playoff team” that got swept, but their 2019 draft pick will probably still be under contract.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#216 » by pepe1991 » Tue Jun 4, 2019 10:09 pm

MasterGMer wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Magic terrible backcourt won't fix itself by letting Vučević go. Matter of fact it will be chain reaction as Ross has no reason to be on rebuild team at age of 28, so if Vuc is gone, we all know Ross is gone.
It's already well documented that Magic won't have salary cap, with or without Vučević to do anything now. Down the road, Vučević and Ross really won't impact salary flexibility all that much , due cap growth and ability to split ways with DJ, Fultz and Mozgov who free up $36M.

Magic, losing Vučević won't miraculously get new star just because they lost one. But could easly hurt value of other assets if they crumble under usage they can't handle ( that they barley can handle right now ).

But every time you are faced with facts like this, you turn blind eye and ignore it.

" That’s not bi**ing for the sake of it"
But it is, because you don't offer solution, your "solution" is to get rid of good player to get inferior players more space .Why ? Well, because ,reasons.

"You are saying I don’t know how to validate assets, but you want to retain a Center for $20m +, that has proven nothing in the playoffs,"
This is backpaddling argument at it's peak . You don't focus on core of the problem but final result. Yes , Vučević played poorly. But not because he is poor player but because Raptors had no reason to guard anybody but him and Ross.

And instad of focusing on fact that you have two players in your prime ,that need another great player along with devleoping youth AND additional roster upgrades, you want to hit reset button and hope against hope that somwhere, one day, you will find superstar . And you don't even know where and how and it seems that you are not really too bothered with it, it's just you wanting to reset things for sake of not being thredmill team.

You also didn't answer me few pages back, why you didn't consider Raptors thredmill team in 2017. You said they had Derozan and Lowry. Derozan is not allstar any more ( would never be on West) and Lowry should't be allstar any more. So ? Thredmill team at it's finest, yet you cherrypick what defines thredmill team when , depending how it fits your argument. Team that gets swept in second round TWICE is not far away from team that loses in 5 or 6 competitive games in first round. But again, it doesn't fit your agenda so you won't explain it.


We have options. I think Orlando is planning for both ways, losing or not losing Vuc. I think it is common knowledge now that if Vuc is offered 30+ million or so, Magic have let him go. That is why you see the report of us interested in DRussell or Kemba Walker.

This upcoming year is Fournier's last year on contract if he decline his player option. I think Magic will trade him before the next trade deadline or this offseason. Along with Mozgov, those are trade assets for us and there is a legit chance we can improve this team this summer.

I disagree with Magicmatic, this team is not a thredmill team. We have plenty of young players. And who knows what kind of players they would become? Look at Siakam. Look at Victor Oladipo and even DRussell. Yes, they are not stars in the league now but it doesn't mean they won't. All we need to do is to improve this team and develop internally while eyeing for the chance on Trade and Draft.


They would be fools not to consider all the options.

Lot of all time great teams were threadmill teams on start.
People forget that Jordan led Bulls in 1987 lost in first round , in 1988 in second round, in 1989 in third round and in 1990 in third round. Overall, it took Jordan 7 years to win it all, at that point he was already 27 years old .



Probably most obvious example of sticking to winning are Spurs . Championship team in 2014 went through :
2010 second round sweep
2011 one of biggest upset Ls in NBA history- in first round
2012- losing to upcomming superteam that would make everybody think their window for championship is closed- OKC
2013- devastating buzzerbeater in game 6 of nba finals
2014- nba champions against all odds.

Manu, Parker and Duncan all passed their 30s ( hell, pushed 40s ).


Lakers prior winning it all in 2010 went through
2006- first round exit
2007- first round exist ( against Suns, again)

that team had 29 years old Kobe Bryant , when most of doubters thought he can't carry team to second round ,let alone chpis. Than 2008 happend, they traded for Pau Gasol and went to nba finals, won year later.


My whole problem with posters like MagicMatic is that they will claim that Vučević is old and does not fit timeline ,yet among top 20 best players in the world right now, at least 17 of them are as old or older than him. 28 -29 for player is not old. It's their prime. There is no objetive reason why would not Vučević mentain this level of play through his next 3-4 years of a contract.

Do people know how much Kawhi Leonard "young "star is actually younger than Vučević? 8 freaking months.
Lillard? 4 months OLDER than Vučević.
Westbrook? 2 yeras OLDER than Vučević
Paul George ? 8 months OLDER than Vučević
Durant? 2 years OLDER than Vučević
Curry? 2 and half years OLDER than Vučević
Honorable older mention: Lebron, Chris Paul,Cousins, McCullum, Wall, Jrue Holiday,Dragić, Lowry, Whiteside, Horford, Klay Thompson, Draymoond Green, Derozan, James Harden, Kemba Walker, Conley...



But yea, Vučević is really old, just look at that spring chickens above. And crown jewel of ignorance , Ross is old ,28 yeras old. Let's get this young upcomming star that fits our timeline much better, Malcolm Brogdon...who turns 27 on start of next season ? !
Nothing against Brogdon, but come on.

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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#217 » by pepe1991 » Tue Jun 4, 2019 10:15 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:

You also didn't answer me few pages back, why you didn't consider Raptors thredmill team in 2017. You said they had Derozan and Lowry. Derozan is not allstar any more ( would never be on West) and Lowry should't be allstar any more. So ? Thredmill team at it's finest, yet you cherrypick what defines thredmill team when , depending how it fits your argument. Team that gets swept in second round TWICE is not far away from team that loses in 5 or 6 competitive games in first round. But again, it doesn't fit your agenda so you won't explain it.


I did already answer your question. Derozen was an allstar since 13-14 and Lowry since 14-15. I don’t consider coming top 3 in the eastern conference and hovering around a .700 w/l % since 2015 a “treadmill team” or a having “failed seasons”. Sure, getting swept in the first round in 2013 and 2014 isn’t ideal, but neither of those rosters were deep or talented enough. Then again, that’s my perspective and just how I view it. Spin that however you want.

“Treadmill” teams are teams that either barely make the playoffs, or get killed in the first round, which gives them less valuable draft picks and isn’t considered a “winning situation”. Having less room to acquire talent and solve the issues they run into in the regular season and post season further highlights this. Detroit is a perfect example of “treadmill team” being locked into huge bloated contracts, poor draft picks, and no real way of getting off unless they can offload some assets. But “tHeY mAdE ThE PlAyoFfs” right? Ask any Detroit fan whether they would rather have not made the playoffs or move up 5-6 picks in the draft. What do you think their answer would be? 4 years from now they wouldn’t even remember who was on their “playoff team” that got swept, but their 2019 draft pick will probably still be under contract.


So playoff success only matters when it counts against Vučević ?
Because Derozan and Lowry are one of biggest playoff chokers who could not pass second round to save their lifes, yet their teams were not viewed as threadmill teams, according to you ,because they were upvoted for allstars ,yet, you claim Vučević being allstar means nothing ? Hmm . Interesting counter arguments set by you, to you.

What's key difference between being killed in second round ( swept, twice) and losing in first round ? You really boxed yourself into a corner now....


Ask Detroit fans how they feel about superstars they collected:
Stanley Johnson
KCP
Luke Kennard
Greg Monroe
Brandon Knight

oh booooy look at this superstars from previous lottery. It's just matter of time when they will take off . ugh so sexy. Gotta go back in lottery for another shooting guard who plays below replacment level
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#218 » by MagicMatic » Tue Jun 4, 2019 10:36 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Magic terrible backcourt won't fix itself by letting Vučević go. Matter of fact it will be chain reaction as Ross has no reason to be on rebuild team at age of 28, so if Vuc is gone, we all know Ross is gone.
It's already well documented that Magic won't have salary cap, with or without Vučević to do anything now. Down the road, Vučević and Ross really won't impact salary flexibility all that much , due cap growth and ability to split ways with DJ, Fultz and Mozgov who free up $36M.

Magic, losing Vučević won't miraculously get new star just because they lost one. But could easly hurt value of other assets if they crumble under usage they can't handle ( that they barley can handle right now ).

But every time you are faced with facts like this, you turn blind eye and ignore it.

" That’s not bi**ing for the sake of it"
But it is, because you don't offer solution, your "solution" is to get rid of good player to get inferior players more space .Why ? Well, because ,reasons.

"You are saying I don’t know how to validate assets, but you want to retain a Center for $20m +, that has proven nothing in the playoffs,"
This is backpaddling argument at it's peak . You don't focus on core of the problem but final result. Yes , Vučević played poorly. But not because he is poor player but because Raptors had no reason to guard anybody but him and Ross.

And instad of focusing on fact that you have two players in your prime ,that need another great player along with devleoping youth AND additional roster upgrades, you want to hit reset button and hope against hope that somwhere, one day, you will find superstar . And you don't even know where and how and it seems that you are not really too bothered with it, it's just you wanting to reset things for sake of not being thredmill team.

You also didn't answer me few pages back, why you didn't consider Raptors thredmill team in 2017. You said they had Derozan and Lowry. Derozan is not allstar any more ( would never be on West) and Lowry should't be allstar any more. So ? Thredmill team at it's finest, yet you cherrypick what defines thredmill team when , depending how it fits your argument. Team that gets swept in second round TWICE is not far away from team that loses in 5 or 6 competitive games in first round. But again, it doesn't fit your agenda so you won't explain it.


We have options. I think Orlando is planning for both ways, losing or not losing Vuc. I think it is common knowledge now that if Vuc is offered 30+ million or so, Magic have let him go. That is why you see the report of us interested in DRussell or Kemba Walker.

This upcoming year is Fournier's last year on contract if he decline his player option. I think Magic will trade him before the next trade deadline or this offseason. Along with Mozgov, those are trade assets for us and there is a legit chance we can improve this team this summer.

I disagree with Magicmatic, this team is not a thredmill team. We have plenty of young players. And who knows what kind of players they would become? Look at Siakam. Look at Victor Oladipo and even DRussell. Yes, they are not stars in the league now but it doesn't mean they won't. All we need to do is to improve this team and develop internally while eyeing for the chance on Trade and Draft.


They would be fools not to consider all the options.

Lot of all time great teams were threadmill teams on start.
People forget that Jordan led Bulls in 1987 lost in first round , in 1988 in second round, in 1989 in third round and in 1990 in third round. Overall, it took Jordan 7 years to win it all, at that point he was already 27 years old .



Probably most obvious example of sticking to winning are Spurs . Championship team in 2014 went through :
2010 second round sweep
2011 one of biggest upset Ls in NBA history- in first round
2012- losing to upcomming superteam that would make everybody think their window for championship is closed- OKC
2013- devastating buzzerbeater in game 6 of nba finals
2014- nba champions against all odds.

Manu, Parker and Duncan all passed their 30s ( hell, pushed 40s ).


Lakers prior winning it all in 2010 went through
2006- first round exit
2007- first round exist ( against Suns, again)

that team had 29 years old Kobe Bryant , when most of doubters thought he can't carry team to second round ,let alone chpis. Than 2008 happend, they traded for Pau Gasol and went to nba finals, won year later.


My whole problem with posters like MagicMatic is that they will claim that Vučević is old and does not fit timeline ,yet among top 20 best players in the world right now, at least 17 of them are as old or older than him. 28 -29 for player is not old. It's their prime. There is no objetive reason why would not Vučević mentain this level of play through his next 3-4 years of a contract.

Do people know how much Kawhi Leonard "young "star is actually younger than Vučević? 8 freaking months.
Lillard? 4 months OLDER than Vučević.
Westbrook? 2 yeras OLDER than Vučević
Paul George ? 8 months OLDER than Vučević
Durant? 2 years OLDER than Vučević
Curry? 2 and half years OLDER than Vučević
Honorable older mention: Lebron, Chris Paul,Cousins, McCullum, Wall, Jrue Holiday,Dragić, Lowry, Whiteside, Horford, Klay Thompson, Draymoond Green, Derozan, James Harden, Kemba Walker, Conley...



But yea, Vučević is really old, just look at that spring chickens above. And crown jewel of ignorance , Ross is old ,28 yeras old. Let's get this young upcomming star that fits our timeline much better, Malcolm Brogdon...who turns 27 on start of next season ? !
Nothing against Brogdon, but come on.

Image


Point to where I said he was “old”. I said he has a ceiling, which he does and has likely reached.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#219 » by MagicMatic » Tue Jun 4, 2019 10:39 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:

You also didn't answer me few pages back, why you didn't consider Raptors thredmill team in 2017. You said they had Derozan and Lowry. Derozan is not allstar any more ( would never be on West) and Lowry should't be allstar any more. So ? Thredmill team at it's finest, yet you cherrypick what defines thredmill team when , depending how it fits your argument. Team that gets swept in second round TWICE is not far away from team that loses in 5 or 6 competitive games in first round. But again, it doesn't fit your agenda so you won't explain it.


I did already answer your question. Derozen was an allstar since 13-14 and Lowry since 14-15. I don’t consider coming top 3 in the eastern conference and hovering around a .700 w/l % since 2015 a “treadmill team” or a having “failed seasons”. Sure, getting swept in the first round in 2013 and 2014 isn’t ideal, but neither of those rosters were deep or talented enough. Then again, that’s my perspective and just how I view it. Spin that however you want.

“Treadmill” teams are teams that either barely make the playoffs, or get killed in the first round, which gives them less valuable draft picks and isn’t considered a “winning situation”. Having less room to acquire talent and solve the issues they run into in the regular season and post season further highlights this. Detroit is a perfect example of “treadmill team” being locked into huge bloated contracts, poor draft picks, and no real way of getting off unless they can offload some assets. But “tHeY mAdE ThE PlAyoFfs” right? Ask any Detroit fan whether they would rather have not made the playoffs or move up 5-6 picks in the draft. What do you think their answer would be? 4 years from now they wouldn’t even remember who was on their “playoff team” that got swept, but their 2019 draft pick will probably still be under contract.


So playoff success only matters when it counts against Vučević ?
Because Derozan and Lowry are one of biggest playoff chokers who could not pass second round to save their lifes, yet their teams were not viewed as threadmill teams, according to you ,because they were upvoted for allstars ,yet, you claim Vučević being allstar means nothing ? Hmm . Interesting counter arguments set by you, to you.

What's key difference between being killed in second round ( swept, twice) and losing in first round ? You really boxed yourself into a corner now....


Ask Detroit fans how they feel about superstars they collected:
Stanley Johnson
KCP
Luke Kennard
Greg Monroe
Brandon Knight

oh booooy look at this superstars from previous lottery. It's just matter of time when they will take off . ugh so sexy. Gotta go back in lottery for another shooting guard who plays below replacment level


Just because they haven’t drafted well doesn’t make my point any less relevant. Lets play this game then, what do you view as "success" from a long term organizational perspective? Championship? Second round? ECF winner? So you think Toronto getting swept by Lebron in 2 consecutive years of the second round as failed seasons. However, you are perfectly ok with 7 seasons of running offense through Vuc, resigning him, and having no alternatives to the roster issues at hand. Sounds like a good plan pepe...you got me there.
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Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#220 » by Xatticus » Wed Jun 5, 2019 2:16 am

pepe1991 wrote:Vogel and Skiles took offense away from Vučević and failed misserably because of it. Basic logic: play offense through your best offensive player.


Nobody took offense away from Vucevic. He has had the highest usage among our starters in each of the past five seasons. He simply didn't do much with the usage he was given up until this season. Some combination of a contract year, his replacement being drafted with the 6th overall pick, or the hiring of Steve Clifford finally lit a fire under his ass. Now we are looking at the prospect of paying him $25M per year in the hope that this is the new norm, while players with superior offensive résumés (Brook Lopez and DeMarcus Cousins) are playing for contenders for a small fraction of the price we are contemplating.

His next contract really worries me. If we get something more comparable to the player we have had for his first six years in a Magic uniform, his contract becomes a huge problem. There is just too much depth at the position across the NBA and few teams will actually value him in the way that Clifford does. Clifford will use him as a crutch, but most of the NBA has moved beyond using the post game to facilitate offense.

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