ImageImageImageImage

GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion

Moderators: UCFJayBird, UCF, ChosenSavior, Knightro, SOUL, Howard Mass, Def Swami

User avatar
MagicMatic
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,828
And1: 5,648
Joined: May 30, 2016
 

Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#81 » by MagicMatic » Thu May 30, 2019 5:35 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:
MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
Skin wrote:If Houston is ready to blow it up being as good as they are, what does that say about us and our Vuc/TRoss situation?

don't overpay for role players/aging all stars???

If anything the CP3 deal was the biggest mistake they made. EVERYONE knew CP3 was going to resign in Houston there was no need to give him the max other than to swing the dyk and say we'll overpay to get stars to try and beat golden state. CP3 was Hardens sidekick and injuries have killed him the last few years. The Capela deal is pretty meh but looking at CP3 and Hardens deals it's hard to accept that much $ for a dude who does what lobs rebounds and dunks?

Our FO has said they're not going to get into the bidding aspects and if it's over x amount then so be it. We're years away from getting out of the first round and depending on what happens in the East (other teams FA plans) we might not even make the playoffs with or without Vuc/TRoss.


No team in the entire NBA would pay more than $25 mil per for over 3 years for CP3. Houston rewarded him with $40 mil per and he hadn't won them nothing.


That’s the price for overpaying an often injured aging vet, that hasn’t ever shown up in the postseason, that kind of money. They took the gamble and lost. At least they tried while their window was open. Maybe Morey will salvage it still, but it’s doubtful because that contract is poison for the amount of years he has left at his age.
ezzzp
Head Coach
Posts: 6,303
And1: 3,382
Joined: Aug 25, 2009
 

Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#82 » by ezzzp » Fri May 31, 2019 1:59 am

Skin wrote:If Houston is ready to blow it up being as good as they are, what does that say about us and our Vuc/TRoss situation?



Houston looking to move CP3 and Capella isn't really blowing it up...blowing it up would be putting James Harden on the market, and nothing I've seen indicates that.

I think what they are doing is looking to revamp the roster around Harden but to shift to an entirely different system and approach. This is why I believe D'Antoni deal also broke apart.
NotACat
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,566
And1: 765
Joined: Apr 28, 2018

Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#83 » by NotACat » Fri May 31, 2019 3:43 am

Pascal's performance has to positively impact JI's value right? He's 3 years younger than Pascal but pretty much the same type of athlete and a better shooter than Pascal was 3 years ago. JI could have a similar trajectory.
User avatar
BadMofoPimp
RealGM
Posts: 45,799
And1: 10,672
Joined: Oct 12, 2003
Location: In the Paint

Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#84 » by BadMofoPimp » Fri May 31, 2019 11:53 am

MagicMatic wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
MartinsIzAfraud wrote: don't overpay for role players/aging all stars???

If anything the CP3 deal was the biggest mistake they made. EVERYONE knew CP3 was going to resign in Houston there was no need to give him the max other than to swing the dyk and say we'll overpay to get stars to try and beat golden state. CP3 was Hardens sidekick and injuries have killed him the last few years. The Capela deal is pretty meh but looking at CP3 and Hardens deals it's hard to accept that much $ for a dude who does what lobs rebounds and dunks?

Our FO has said they're not going to get into the bidding aspects and if it's over x amount then so be it. We're years away from getting out of the first round and depending on what happens in the East (other teams FA plans) we might not even make the playoffs with or without Vuc/TRoss.


No team in the entire NBA would pay more than $25 mil per for over 3 years for CP3. Houston rewarded him with $40 mil per and he hadn't won them nothing.


That’s the price for overpaying an often injured aging vet, that hasn’t ever shown up in the postseason, that kind of money. They took the gamble and lost. At least they tried while their window was open. Maybe Morey will salvage it still, but it’s doubtful because that contract is poison for the amount of years he has left at his age.


Think if Kyrie leaves Boston, they would trade Haryward for CP3?
Image

Provin Ya'll Wrong!!!
zaymon
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,390
And1: 778
Joined: Jul 01, 2015
   

Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#85 » by zaymon » Fri May 31, 2019 12:28 pm

You want CP3 in that locker room? Drop a nuclear bomb on Boston and show them some mercy.
Bold Predictions:
1. Deandre Ayton biggest disappointment of 2018 draft.
2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
User avatar
Skin
RealGM
Posts: 14,884
And1: 6,840
Joined: Jul 03, 2009
   

Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#86 » by Skin » Fri May 31, 2019 5:11 pm

NotACat wrote:Pascal's performance has to positively impact JI's value right? He's 3 years younger than Pascal but pretty much the same type of athlete and a better shooter than Pascal was 3 years ago. JI could have a similar trajectory.

I like the train of thought, but I don't think anything is related in terms of people looking at Isaac and hoping he's the next Siakam. Or trying to pidgeon hole Isaac into playing the same role that Siakam is playing now.

I can see Isaac being a really incredible player in 3 years. He has everything going for him right now. I believe the way he's being developed is ideal. Getting a lot of playing time, but getting support from others and playing a specific role, which should grow over time. This offseason he should focus a lot more on building up his strength and body mass. He's improved a lot since college, but he's still slim.
User avatar
Skin
RealGM
Posts: 14,884
And1: 6,840
Joined: Jul 03, 2009
   

Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#87 » by Skin » Fri May 31, 2019 5:14 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:If Houston is ready to blow it up being as good as they are, what does that say about us and our Vuc/TRoss situation?



Houston looking to move CP3 and Capella isn't really blowing it up...blowing it up would be putting James Harden on the market, and nothing I've seen indicates that.

I think what they are doing is looking to revamp the roster around Harden but to shift to an entirely different system and approach. This is why I believe D'Antoni deal also broke apart.

Call it what you want... they are recognizing the limits of how far they can get with certain star players and are trying a new approach.

We'll see if the Magic realize they are limited to 1st round playoff exits with their highest paid player being Vuc or if they try a new approach as well knowing their limits.
ezzzp
Head Coach
Posts: 6,303
And1: 3,382
Joined: Aug 25, 2009
 

Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#88 » by ezzzp » Fri May 31, 2019 6:10 pm

Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:If Houston is ready to blow it up being as good as they are, what does that say about us and our Vuc/TRoss situation?



Houston looking to move CP3 and Capella isn't really blowing it up...blowing it up would be putting James Harden on the market, and nothing I've seen indicates that.

I think what they are doing is looking to revamp the roster around Harden but to shift to an entirely different system and approach. This is why I believe D'Antoni deal also broke apart.

Call it what you want... they are recognizing the limits of how far they can get with certain star players and are trying a new approach.

We'll see if the Magic realize they are limited to 1st round playoff exits with their highest paid player being Vuc or if they try a new approach as well knowing their limits.


I'm calling it what it is...and its definitely not blowing up the team in the sense that its a ground up rebuild which is what the implication of "blowing it up" is.

I'm positive the Magic FO know the importance of developing players and assets in a winning context...after all they built or were key part of building Toronto and Milwaukee. They know that Magic context is very reliant on Vucevic, and that the options to replace that type of production and role in their cap context are extremely limited.

That FO have stated all along that Vucevic is a priority but that they won't pay a penny higher than market price. The FO and those of us without the power of clairvoyance will wait and see what that market price is before making assumptions.

I'm also sure this FO values the young players it has and trusts their ability to develop them and not just assume their limit is a 1st round team. They aren't addicted to perpetual rebuilding and its endless cycle of grass-is-greener "potential." They are too experienced and too talented to fall for that marketing scheme.
User avatar
Skin
RealGM
Posts: 14,884
And1: 6,840
Joined: Jul 03, 2009
   

Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#89 » by Skin » Fri May 31, 2019 6:24 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:

Houston looking to move CP3 and Capella isn't really blowing it up...blowing it up would be putting James Harden on the market, and nothing I've seen indicates that.

I think what they are doing is looking to revamp the roster around Harden but to shift to an entirely different system and approach. This is why I believe D'Antoni deal also broke apart.

Call it what you want... they are recognizing the limits of how far they can get with certain star players and are trying a new approach.

We'll see if the Magic realize they are limited to 1st round playoff exits with their highest paid player being Vuc or if they try a new approach as well knowing their limits.


I'm calling it what it is...and its definitely not blowing up the team in the sense that its a ground up rebuild which is what the implication of "blowing it up" is.

I'm positive the Magic FO know the importance of developing players and assets in a winning context...after all they built or were key part of building Toronto and Milwaukee. They know that Magic context is very reliant on Vucevic, and that the options to replace that type of production and role in their cap context are extremely limited.

That FO have stated all along that Vucevic is a priority but that they won't pay a penny higher than market price. The FO and those of us without the power of clairvoyance will wait and see what that market price is before making assumptions.

I'm also sure this FO values the young players it has and trusts their ability to develop them and not just assume their limit is a 1st round team. They aren't addicted to perpetual rebuilding and its endless cycle of grass-is-greener "potential." They are too experienced and too talented to fall for that marketing scheme.

Actually, if what they said is true, then they won't pay a penny higher than their own evaluation of what his worthy price tag is. They are not gonna let the market set his price tag and then simply match it.
ezzzp
Head Coach
Posts: 6,303
And1: 3,382
Joined: Aug 25, 2009
 

Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#90 » by ezzzp » Fri May 31, 2019 6:30 pm

Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:Call it what you want... they are recognizing the limits of how far they can get with certain star players and are trying a new approach.

We'll see if the Magic realize they are limited to 1st round playoff exits with their highest paid player being Vuc or if they try a new approach as well knowing their limits.


I'm calling it what it is...and its definitely not blowing up the team in the sense that its a ground up rebuild which is what the implication of "blowing it up" is.

I'm positive the Magic FO know the importance of developing players and assets in a winning context...after all they built or were key part of building Toronto and Milwaukee. They know that Magic context is very reliant on Vucevic, and that the options to replace that type of production and role in their cap context are extremely limited.

That FO have stated all along that Vucevic is a priority but that they won't pay a penny higher than market price. The FO and those of us without the power of clairvoyance will wait and see what that market price is before making assumptions.

I'm also sure this FO values the young players it has and trusts their ability to develop them and not just assume their limit is a 1st round team. They aren't addicted to perpetual rebuilding and its endless cycle of grass-is-greener "potential." They are too experienced and too talented to fall for that marketing scheme.

Actually, if what they said is true, then they won't pay a penny higher than their own evaluation of what his worthy price tag is. They are not gonna let the market set his price tag and then simply match it.


Actually that's not what Weltman implicated. His exact statement was "we won't pay a penny more than any other team."
User avatar
MagicMatic
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,828
And1: 5,648
Joined: May 30, 2016
 

Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#91 » by MagicMatic » Fri May 31, 2019 6:47 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:

Houston looking to move CP3 and Capella isn't really blowing it up...blowing it up would be putting James Harden on the market, and nothing I've seen indicates that.

I think what they are doing is looking to revamp the roster around Harden but to shift to an entirely different system and approach. This is why I believe D'Antoni deal also broke apart.

Call it what you want... they are recognizing the limits of how far they can get with certain star players and are trying a new approach.

We'll see if the Magic realize they are limited to 1st round playoff exits with their highest paid player being Vuc or if they try a new approach as well knowing their limits.


I'm calling it what it is...and its definitely not blowing up the team in the sense that its a ground up rebuild which is what the implication of "blowing it up" is.

I'm positive the Magic FO know the importance of developing players and assets in a winning context...after all they built or were key part of building Toronto and Milwaukee. They know that Magic context is very reliant on Vucevic, and that the options to replace that type of production and role in their cap context are extremely limited.

That FO have stated all along that Vucevic is a priority but that they won't pay a penny higher than market price. The FO and those of us without the power of clairvoyance will wait and see what that market price is before making assumptions.

I'm also sure this FO values the young players it has and trusts their ability to develop them and not just assume their limit is a 1st round team. They aren't addicted to perpetual rebuilding and its endless cycle of grass-is-greener "potential." They are too experienced and too talented to fall for that marketing scheme.


Both franchises get nowhere without Giannis or Kawhi this season. Which are the two main components to their success. Orlando doesn’t have players of that caliber, so the main component of both of those teams and foundational team building is missing regardless.

You are right in that production being limited, but we also aren’t going to land that quality player in free agency or the draft by replicating this ideal version of last season.

Using either of these teams as examples of “developing in a winning context” is disingenuous to the fact they each have top 5 players leading their rosters. The most you could attribute to them is making quality selections to the supporting cast, but then again none of that matters without elite star talent.
User avatar
MartinsIzAfraud
Veteran
Posts: 2,813
And1: 2,247
Joined: Mar 07, 2017
Location: Work
     

Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#92 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Fri May 31, 2019 6:48 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
I'm calling it what it is...and its definitely not blowing up the team in the sense that its a ground up rebuild which is what the implication of "blowing it up" is.

I'm positive the Magic FO know the importance of developing players and assets in a winning context...after all they built or were key part of building Toronto and Milwaukee. They know that Magic context is very reliant on Vucevic, and that the options to replace that type of production and role in their cap context are extremely limited.

That FO have stated all along that Vucevic is a priority but that they won't pay a penny higher than market price. The FO and those of us without the power of clairvoyance will wait and see what that market price is before making assumptions.

I'm also sure this FO values the young players it has and trusts their ability to develop them and not just assume their limit is a 1st round team. They aren't addicted to perpetual rebuilding and its endless cycle of grass-is-greener "potential." They are too experienced and too talented to fall for that marketing scheme.

Actually, if what they said is true, then they won't pay a penny higher than their own evaluation of what his worthy price tag is. They are not gonna let the market set his price tag and then simply match it.


Actually that's not what Weltman implicated. His exact statement was "we won't pay a penny more than any other team."[/quote

Here's how it's going to work out. Vuc will go get a deal/offer from other teams. IF offer is close to what Orlando is willing to pay they'll probably try to play the hometown/family/role side of the negotiations. IF offer is above and beyond Orlando was willing they're going to thank him and move on.

I can almost guarantee we won't hear what Orlando's offer is unless it comes from Vuc's camp. At this point I really see the Kings Front Loading a 25M+ M 3/4 year offer sheet. They need a C who can shoot it and work with Fox/Bagley and that young core and I think Vuc fits in perfectly with that team.
LONG LENGTHY ATHLETIC... CAN’T SHOOT
ezzzp
Head Coach
Posts: 6,303
And1: 3,382
Joined: Aug 25, 2009
 

Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#93 » by ezzzp » Fri May 31, 2019 7:07 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
Both franchises get nowhere without Giannis or Kawhi this season. Which are the two main components to their success. Orlando doesn’t have players of that caliber, so the main component of both of those teams and foundational team building is missing regardless. You are right in that production being limited, but we also aren’t going to land that quality player in free agency or the draft by replicating this ideal version of last season.


They got Giannis by drafting well, not losing games for odds, and then developing him in a competitive context with a gradual development of his body and skill set within that context.

They got Kawhi because they didn't blow up their team like the Toronto tankers wanted and what the drama driven media were screaming for so that they could have a storyline to sell. That FO instead kept the team together ensuring a competitive context, thus retaining and building value to their asset cache...and then pounced when the right opportunity came.

That is absolutely replicable by the Magic. Its why I've been insistent on retaining Vuc/Ross to both retain the assets and keep the young players gradually developing within a competitive context. Free agency is the least likely mechanism for improving this roster, trading and draft/development are...both of those methods are maximized within a competitive context.
ezzzp
Head Coach
Posts: 6,303
And1: 3,382
Joined: Aug 25, 2009
 

Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#94 » by ezzzp » Fri May 31, 2019 7:13 pm

MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
Here's how it's going to work out. Vuc will go get a deal/offer from other teams. IF offer is close to what Orlando is willing to pay they'll probably try to play the hometown/family/role side of the negotiations. IF offer is above and beyond Orlando was willing they're going to thank him and move on.

I can almost guarantee we won't hear what Orlando's offer is unless it comes from Vuc's camp. At this point I really see the Kings Front Loading a 25M+ M 3/4 year offer sheet. They need a C who can shoot it and work with Fox/Bagley and that young core and I think Vuc fits in perfectly with that team.


The Magic would easily pay that as well...AND Vucevic will look at how that SAC context and know that his value has a very big risk of dramatically dropping in that context.
User avatar
MagicMatic
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,828
And1: 5,648
Joined: May 30, 2016
 

Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#95 » by MagicMatic » Fri May 31, 2019 7:14 pm

ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Both franchises get nowhere without Giannis or Kawhi this season. Which are the two main components to their success. Orlando doesn’t have players of that caliber, so the main component of both of those teams and foundational team building is missing regardless. You are right in that production being limited, but we also aren’t going to land that quality player in free agency or the draft by replicating this ideal version of last season.



That is absolutely replicable by the Magic. Its why I've been insistent on retaining Vuc/Ross to both retain the assets and keep the young players gradually developing within a competitive context. Free agency is the least likely mechanism for improving this roster, trading and draft/development are...both of those methods are maximized within a competitive context.


Yeah, just find Giannis level talent at pick 16 and trade #9 pick Derozen talent for a top 3 player in the league. No big deal. Absolutely replicable in Orlandos position. :lol:
We are right around the corner from landing that talent bringing back Vuc and Ross... definitely...
User avatar
MartinsIzAfraud
Veteran
Posts: 2,813
And1: 2,247
Joined: Mar 07, 2017
Location: Work
     

Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#96 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Fri May 31, 2019 7:27 pm

ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Both franchises get nowhere without Giannis or Kawhi this season. Which are the two main components to their success. Orlando doesn’t have players of that caliber, so the main component of both of those teams and foundational team building is missing regardless. You are right in that production being limited, but we also aren’t going to land that quality player in free agency or the draft by replicating this ideal version of last season.


They got Giannis by drafting well, not losing games for odds, and then developing him in a competitive context with a gradual development of his body and skill set within that context.

They got Kawhi because they didn't blow up their team like the Toronto tankers wanted and what the drama driven media were screaming for so that they could have a storyline to sell. That FO instead kept the team together ensuring a competitive context, thus retaining and building value to their asset cache...and then pounced when the right opportunity came.

That is absolutely replicable by the Magic. Its why I've been insistent on retaining Vuc/Ross to both retain the assets and keep the young players gradually developing within a competitive context. Free agency is the least likely mechanism for improving this roster, trading and draft/development are...both of those methods are maximized within a competitive context.



Bucks got extremely lucky that Giannis worked out. If he hadn't worked out and he's another Thon Maker they're a nowhere near as good as they are. I'm not sure hitting gold like that is something that can really be replicated in the mid round draft picks.

Toronto landed Kawhi because he sat out even though he was medically cleared and then said he would sit out his final year if he didn't get traded. San Antonio had no choice but to trade him and Pop wasn't about to trade him inside the Western Conference. No one could've seen the Lakers implode like this which is hurting the Kawhi to LA hype. That LA hype caused a ton of teams to pull out as he was seen as a 1 year rental. Easier for Toronto to make that trade knowing they were a playoff team before and were about to get 1 step closer to Finals vs staying status quo.

The idea that the Magic could re sign Vuc and TRoss and in 2/3 years be able to flip them for solid value really hinges around the hope that this season wasn't a fluke and even with our easiest schedule post all star break we are a top 8 team in the East. I'm not so sure that will be the case given what could happen in Atlanta, NY & Detroit all teams who could get much better in FA and Detroit with Blake Griff getting healthy again.
LONG LENGTHY ATHLETIC... CAN’T SHOOT
ezzzp
Head Coach
Posts: 6,303
And1: 3,382
Joined: Aug 25, 2009
 

Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#97 » by ezzzp » Fri May 31, 2019 7:36 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Both franchises get nowhere without Giannis or Kawhi this season. Which are the two main components to their success. Orlando doesn’t have players of that caliber, so the main component of both of those teams and foundational team building is missing regardless. You are right in that production being limited, but we also aren’t going to land that quality player in free agency or the draft by replicating this ideal version of last season.



That is absolutely replicable by the Magic. Its why I've been insistent on retaining Vuc/Ross to both retain the assets and keep the young players gradually developing within a competitive context. Free agency is the least likely mechanism for improving this roster, trading and draft/development are...both of those methods are maximized within a competitive context.


Yeah, just find Giannis level talent at pick 16 and trade #9 pick Derozen talent for a top 3 player in the league. No big deal. Absolutely replicable in Orlandos position. :lol:
We are right around the corner from landing that talent bringing back Vuc and Ross... definitely...


I value our young players more than you. Plus I have more confidence in this FO's ability to develop Isaac, Gordon, Fultz and Bamba.

I'm not going to put a cap on Isaac after 100 games played; or on Bamba and his 47 games played; or on Fultz and his 33 games played. Giannis at that stage also was a raw and lanky kid. Quality development of his physical gifts turned him into what he is...not hype.

Fans like you would have wanted to dump DeRozan and blow it all up. That trade asset was turned into Kawhi.

You do not know what the trade market will be in the future...what size contracts will be needed, what positions will be compatible etc.
ezzzp
Head Coach
Posts: 6,303
And1: 3,382
Joined: Aug 25, 2009
 

Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#98 » by ezzzp » Fri May 31, 2019 7:46 pm

MartinsIzAfraud wrote:Bucks got extremely lucky that Giannis worked out. If he hadn't worked out and he's another Thon Maker they're a nowhere near as good as they are. I'm not sure hitting gold like that is something that can really be replicated in the mid round draft picks.

Toronto landed Kawhi because he sat out even though he was medically cleared and then said he would sit out his final year if he didn't get traded. San Antonio had no choice but to trade him and Pop wasn't about to trade him inside the Western Conference. No one could've seen the Lakers implode like this which is hurting the Kawhi to LA hype. That LA hype caused a ton of teams to pull out as he was seen as a 1 year rental. Easier for Toronto to make that trade knowing they were a playoff team before and were about to get 1 step closer to Finals vs staying status quo.

The idea that the Magic could re sign Vuc and TRoss and in 2/3 years be able to flip them for solid value really hinges around the hope that this season wasn't a fluke and even with our easiest schedule post all star break we are a top 8 team in the East. I'm not so sure that will be the case given what could happen in Atlanta, NY & Detroit all teams who could get much better in FA and Detroit with Blake Griff getting healthy again.



Luck and smart player development go hand in hand. Do the best player development franchises like the Spurs, Utah, Denver etc just keep getting lucky?

They have a methodology and philosophy that continuously keep finding and developing quality to elite players. Luck is always a part of it, but having the right infrastructure and philosophy in place matters just as much.

Vucevic and Ross 2-3 years down the road are better assets than not having the asset. Regardless of Vuc/Ross, cap space will not be available in 2-3 year because of the stacked rookie contracts the Magic have. The Magic will have to preserve any little cap room they have in order to re-sign the young core at $ it will cost if they blossom into what we hope they will. If they don't, then the problem won't be Vuc/Ross as assets, it will be that the core failed to develop.

The trade market is always a unique situation, what isn't is that there is consistently a situation where players want out etc. The quality franchises always build up their asset cache with diverse contracts and picks, plus they maintain their value by remaining competitive. This allows them to pounce when opportunity arises AND it improves their ability to retain that player when the moment comes.
OrlandoNed
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,732
And1: 4,122
Joined: Jul 31, 2013
 

Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#99 » by OrlandoNed » Fri May 31, 2019 8:24 pm

ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:

That is absolutely replicable by the Magic. Its why I've been insistent on retaining Vuc/Ross to both retain the assets and keep the young players gradually developing within a competitive context. Free agency is the least likely mechanism for improving this roster, trading and draft/development are...both of those methods are maximized within a competitive context.


Yeah, just find Giannis level talent at pick 16 and trade #9 pick Derozen talent for a top 3 player in the league. No big deal. Absolutely replicable in Orlandos position. :lol:
We are right around the corner from landing that talent bringing back Vuc and Ross... definitely...


I value our young players more than you. Plus I have more confidence in this FO's ability to develop Isaac, Gordon, Fultz and Bamba.

I'm not going to put a cap on Isaac after 100 games played; or on Bamba and his 47 games played; or on Fultz and his 33 games played. Giannis at that stage also was a raw and lanky kid. Quality development of his physical gifts turned him into what he is...not hype.

Fans like you would have wanted to dump DeRozan and blow it all up. That trade asset was turned into Kawhi.

You do not know what the trade market will be in the future...what size contracts will be needed, what positions will be compatible etc.

The Raptors did kinda blow it up when they traded 5 players including DeRozan for Kawhi, Green and Gasol. DeRozan was a trade asset because they wanted to dump him. Toronto had thought DeRozan was the guy to stick with as a number 1 option, until they got tired of him crapping his pants in the playoffs and realized what their ceiling was with him. They made up their minds at that point that DeRozan wasn't good enough to build around and had to go and got lucky with a bizarre schism between Kawhi and the Spurs popping up, something that NEVER happens with one of the most stable front offices in the league. We are going to reach that point with Vuc eventually, because like with DeRozan, we all know that Vuc is mentally weak and we will get tired of him eventually when we get fed up with the same results or worse year after year.

Spinning your wheels and going nowhere, waiting for the next superstar schism to happen for us to pounce on could keep us waiting for years. Those don't happen often, but when they do there is no guarantee that we will be the ones winning a bidding war; but the draft that happens every year is something you can set your watch to and has actual numbers to crunch for risk-assessment and much better odds of success than playing the billion to one, pissed off superstar scratch off lotto or the middle of the draft for a perennial MVP candidate.

You can prefer just waiting and praying and hoping for something that might never come but being proactive with the draft to find a foundational piece to build your team around will always be a smarter way to construct the core of a title roster, especially for a small market like Orlando. Plus, do you even believe the risk-averse, uber conservative pansies in our front office would have the balls to even pull the trigger on a trade for a disgruntled superstar on a soon to expire deal who openly pines for a big market who most likely wouldn't stay? Please don't compare a gutsy move like that to making an extremely low-risk move trading a few inconsequential assets for Markelle Fultz and don't point to events like Paul George and OKC like they aren't the exceptions to the rule. Don't forget the only reason George chose to stay in OKC was to keep playing with Westbrook, a superstar who was drafted high.
NotACat
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,566
And1: 765
Joined: Apr 28, 2018

Re: GM Philosophies and Theory - general offseason discussion 

Post#100 » by NotACat » Fri May 31, 2019 8:47 pm

OrlandoNed wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Yeah, just find Giannis level talent at pick 16 and trade #9 pick Derozen talent for a top 3 player in the league. No big deal. Absolutely replicable in Orlandos position. :lol:
We are right around the corner from landing that talent bringing back Vuc and Ross... definitely...


I value our young players more than you. Plus I have more confidence in this FO's ability to develop Isaac, Gordon, Fultz and Bamba.

I'm not going to put a cap on Isaac after 100 games played; or on Bamba and his 47 games played; or on Fultz and his 33 games played. Giannis at that stage also was a raw and lanky kid. Quality development of his physical gifts turned him into what he is...not hype.

Fans like you would have wanted to dump DeRozan and blow it all up. That trade asset was turned into Kawhi.

You do not know what the trade market will be in the future...what size contracts will be needed, what positions will be compatible etc.

The Raptors did kinda blow it up when they traded 5 players including DeRozan for Kawhi, Green and Gasol. DeRozan was a trade asset because they wanted to dump him. Toronto had thought DeRozan was the guy to stick with as a number 1 option, until they got tired of him crapping his pants in the playoffs and realized what their ceiling was with him. They made up their minds at that point that DeRozan wasn't good enough to build around and had to go and got lucky with a bizarre schism between Kawhi and the Spurs popping up, something that NEVER happens with one of the most stable front offices in the league. We are going to reach that point with Vuc eventually, because like with DeRozan, we all know that Vuc is mentally weak and we will get tired of him eventually when we get fed up with the same results or worse year after year.

Spinning your wheels and going nowhere, waiting for the next superstar schism to happen for us to pounce on could keep us waiting for years. Those don't happen often, but when they do there is no guarantee that we will be the ones winning a bidding war; but the draft that happens every year is something you can set your watch to and has actual numbers to crunch for risk-assessment and much better odds of success than playing the billion to one, pissed off superstar scratch off lotto or the middle of the draft for a perennial MVP candidate.

You can prefer just waiting and praying and hoping for something that might never come but being proactive with the draft to find a foundational piece to build your team around will always be a smarter way to construct the core of a title roster, especially for a small market like Orlando. Plus, do you even believe the risk-averse, uber conservative pansies in our front office would have the balls to even pull the trigger on a trade for a disgruntled superstar on a soon to expire deal who openly pines for a big market who most likely wouldn't stay? Please don't compare a gutsy move like that to making an extremely low-risk move trading a few inconsequential assets for Markelle Fultz and don't point to events like Paul George and OKC like they aren't the exceptions to the rule. Don't forget the only reason George chose to stay in OKC was to keep playing with Westbrook, a superstar who was drafted high.

Trading for a star is not "blowing it up." That phrase is when teams trade off their talent to acquire draft picks, young talent, and are willing to take on bad contracts. Like Cleveland this year

Return to Orlando Magic