D'Lo Watch: All things D'Lo related

[Ducklett]

How anyone can be high on Fultz is mind blowing. Let us all wait until he plays actual basketball in NBA games.

[ezzzp]

I don't think Clifford needs Vuc for the team to get defensive rebounding done. His teams have finished top 3, if not #1, in defensive rebound % since he became a head coach. He's achieved those levels with the likes of Al Jefferson, Cody Zeller, Dwight Howard and Vuc, so I think he's able to get that role served despite whether the C is Dwight/Vuc or Cody Zeller.

Birch won't be a star, but he would be a great role player. The energy and hustle he brings makes a noticeable difference on the team, especially when he's snagging offensive rebounds and second chance opportunities on every other play. But if we had to pursue another stopgap C, Dedmon would come cheap and likely hold down the fort to the degree Clifford requires.

The team looked very different in the final game of the season against Charlotte, when they played without Vuc. Very different offensive sets, but great team play none-the-less. It's only one game, but I think it shows that the team could have a life outside of Vuc. Especially if you add D'Lo to that mix instead of DJ/Fournier (not to mention, Isaac, Bamba and Fultz who all missed that game as well).

Actually in his first 3 seasons he achieved #1 Def Rebounding with two very good rebounders: Al Jefferson and Biyombo. Both were ranked in top 20 Def Rebounding (each in 2 of those 3 seasons). During that 3 year stretch he built three top 10 defenses. That was fundamental to those teams.

Then in 16-17 he lost both of his centers. They were replaced with Kaminsky and Zeller, both poor rebounders. Kaminsky ranked 154th and Zeller 123d. Clifford was forced to gang rebound to make up for it. MKG and Batum were the teams best def rebounders that season. Even though his team ranked 3d in Def Rebounding, the defense free fell to 17th in NBA. His system, like most of the Van Gundy coaching tree, is founded on good rebounding centers.

That was basically his final season in Charlotte as the following year he only coached first 20 games because of his health scare.

There will be a massive hole on both ends of the floor if the team doesn't sign Vucevic. D-Lo (or someone else) can fix the offense but the Magic will also need to add a good rebounding C if they want to give Clifford something to work with...neither Birch or Dedmon are fixing that as neither excel in that department.

[basketballRob]

The Magic finished 3rd in DRB% this year. That's the lowest any Clifford team has ever ranked in DRB%. His Charlotte teams finished ranked 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, and 1st in the league in defensive rebound rate and they managed to do that without Vucevic.

This is a function of Clifford's scheme. There is more than one way to skin a cat and this is how Clifford does it. There are trade-offs. It comes at the expense of transition opportunities and defending different spots on the floor.

Whether it is a sound strategy depends entirely on whether or not the benefits outweigh the benefits of those trade-offs. You can certainly be a good team with a poor DRB%. Golden State won the title in 2016/17 while finishing 29th in DRB%.

Not all his teams were good defenses. The good defensive units were predicated on strong rebounding C's. His system didn't work with gang rebounding.

Clifford's first three Charlotte teams were #1 in rebounding because he ALSO had excellent rebounding Centers there.

Al Jefferson was top 20 in DREB in 13-14 and 14-15; and even his back up Biyombo was top 20 in 13-14 and 15-16. In those first 3 seasons he built three top 10 defenses.

Then in 16-17, the defense fell off a cliff, dropped to 17th in NBA. Yet he still had a 3d ranked Def Reb unit. What changed?

He lost both Jefferson and Biyombo. They were replaced by Frank Kaminsky and Cody Zeller. That year, Kaminsky ranked 154th in defensive rebounding and Zeller was ranked 123d. He was forced to utilize gang rebounding to pick up the slack. Kidd Gilchrest was highest ranked Hornet at 47th, and Nic Batum was 54th.

That was his last season as in 17-18 he only coached first 20 games before he had his health scare.

Bamba is a good rebounder.

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[Bensational]

I don't think Clifford needs Vuc for the team to get defensive rebounding done. His teams have finished top 3, if not #1, in defensive rebound % since he became a head coach. He's achieved those levels with the likes of Al Jefferson, Cody Zeller, Dwight Howard and Vuc, so I think he's able to get that role served despite whether the C is Dwight/Vuc or Cody Zeller.

Birch won't be a star, but he would be a great role player. The energy and hustle he brings makes a noticeable difference on the team, especially when he's snagging offensive rebounds and second chance opportunities on every other play. But if we had to pursue another stopgap C, Dedmon would come cheap and likely hold down the fort to the degree Clifford requires.

The team looked very different in the final game of the season against Charlotte, when they played without Vuc. Very different offensive sets, but great team play none-the-less. It's only one game, but I think it shows that the team could have a life outside of Vuc. Especially if you add D'Lo to that mix instead of DJ/Fournier (not to mention, Isaac, Bamba and Fultz who all missed that game as well).

Actually in his first 3 seasons he achieved #1 Def Rebounding with two very good rebounders: Al Jefferson and Biyombo. Both were ranked in top 20 Def Rebounding (each in 2 of those 3 seasons). During that 3 year stretch he built three top 10 defenses. That was fundamental to those teams.

Then in 16-17 he lost both of his centers. They were replaced with Kaminsky and Zeller, both poor rebounders. Kaminsky ranked 154th and Zeller 123d. Clifford was forced to gang rebound to make up for it. MKG and Batum were the teams best def rebounders that season. Even though his team ranked 3d in Def Rebounding, the defense free fell to 17th in NBA. His system, like most of the Van Gundy coaching tree, is founded on good rebounding centers.

That was basically his final season in Charlotte as the following year he only coached first 20 games because of his health scare.

There will be a massive hole on both ends of the floor if the team doesn't sign Vucevic. D-Lo (or someone else) can fix the offense but the Magic will also need to add a good rebounding C if they want to give Clifford something to work with...neither Birch or Dedmon are fixing that as neither excel in that department.

It's interesting that of all that, his team's best regular season record came in the season that Jefferson only played 24mpg for 47 games, with Zeller, Hawes and Kaminsky making up the rest. Jefferson had a 24% Dreb% that season, and Hawes was the only other big to average over 20%.

Not sure why you don't think Dedmon could handle the role as a defensive rebounding C? His Drb% for the past 3 seasons are 25%, 28% and 30% (for the Spurs). Plus, now he's shooting 3.4 3fgas and connecting on 38%. Seems to me he'd do a perfect job as a role player on both ends of the court. His box outs aren't as strong as Vuc's, at 6.6bopg per36 vs Vuc's 9.5bopg, but I'm sure Clifford can find a workaround for that.

[ezzzp]

The loss of defensive rebounding will have a major impact. That along, with low TOV rate was key to how the Magic controlled possession count to keep teams within reach of their offense. You would eliminate a major factor of sustainability on both ends of the equation.

Birch ranked 61st in DEF REB% amongst NBA centers that played at least 1/3 of season. That was vs 2nd units...I can't see how he even comes remotely close to replacing one of the best defensive rebounders in the NBA vs the bigger and more talented starter units.

Weltman reiterated just a couple weeks ago that they're going to keep bringing Bamba along slowly. We'll get another look at him in summer league and see were he's at. But I'm not expecting his body to have dramatically changed enough in that short span.

It is not better to act now because you can't implement a system around things you don't have.

The Magic's best shot at improvement will be in the trade market in next couple of seasons, not in free agency. Asset retention and accumulation will be critical, as well as internal asset development. That is how WelHam have done it in the past, I don't see them suddenly changing course. If they can retain Vucevic at a reasonable price, I see them keeping him if he wants to stay.

That’s what Clifford is for in teaching them how to be less turnover prone. Just because there isn’t sufficient evidence that the young guys haven’t done it with bigger roles doesn’t mean they absolutely can’t.

Correct, Birch has primarily been playing against second units. The point is that in the hypothetical scenario D-Lo were signed, as opposed to resigning Vuc, the system is going to look different on both sides of the court. Again, that doesn’t mean Clifford can’t instill the same kind of plan into Bamba, Isaac, and AG to continue to remain effective. There are always going to be pros and cons to changing systems based on roster personnel.

The thread is titled “D’lo watch : All things D’lo related”, so I’m going to assume one of the talking points in this thread are mainly surrounding the scenario of what Russell’s impact would be as opposed to using that money to elsewhere. “You can’t implement a system around things you don’t have” is a pretty obtuse way of quelling the notion that Russell in place of Vuc would absolutely change the system and give the younger guys more responsibility. It’s actually a hilarious thing to say considering we currently play “inside-out” with few reliable outside shooters to “implement a system around things we don’t have” .

Lastly, if you are claiming that the trade market will be Orlando’s “best shot at improvement”, who then would you say is going to net us that return? Obviously not precious 30 year old Center Vuc on a $20+m deal in the “next couple of seasons”. I’m not even disagreeing with you that trading is going to be a crucial avenue, but what is even your ideal scenario in the future, if you would rather retain Vuc and Ross, rather than the FO finally start making choices with their own acquisitions and targets?

This offseason should not be another one where WeHam sit on their hands and idly wait for max cap space in 2020 when it won’t matter as much.

The way coaches make players take care of ball is they cut their minutes and take the ball out of their hands.

I've said it several times, if D-Lo (or even Conley) is acquired I have no problem with letting Vucevic go as there would be someone to focus the offense around. BUT if that happens I think the Magic will still have to find a way to bring in rebounding.

Xatticus pointed to GSW as terrible rebounding team that won championship team; saying there are ways around poor rebounding...unfortunately we won't have 2 of the best shooters in NBA history and Kevin Durant to compensate for bad rebounding.

Most good defenses have good defensive rebounding...and the good teams that don't have it are usually elite offensive teams.

Magic don't have good rebounders, Vucevic carried most of that load. They also don't have good shooters or any triple threat type players. Adding D-Lo isn't suddenly turning JI, Iwundu, Bamba and AG into effective offensive players overnight. You can't build a system build around shooting when you don't have shooters. Its very difficult to build an effective rebounding team without a good rebounding C.

You scoff that Vucevic will have no trade value in two years yet Vucevic will still be in his prime, and should still be producing. There is no reason why he would be untradable. There is thing called consolidation trades. Its when multiple players and assets are packaged together to acquire a single better asset. There is NO reason why he can't be part of that type of trade.

I've already pointed out numerous times that Aaron Gordon's contract and Fournier's both reach peak trade value at same time; beginning with next summer (2020) and leading up to the trade deadline of 2021. Both of their contracts combined, just happen to equal a max players salary. The way Gordon's contract was structured to fit that is just too tidy for me to think that wasn't WelHam strategizing for potential package trade involving those two.

This offseason's most realistic use of their cap space is retaining their own free agents.

[SOUL]

Get back to talking about Russell in this thread or it's getting locked.

[ezzzp]

Actually in his first 3 seasons he achieved #1 Def Rebounding with two very good rebounders: Al Jefferson and Biyombo. Both were ranked in top 20 Def Rebounding (each in 2 of those 3 seasons). During that 3 year stretch he built three top 10 defenses. That was fundamental to those teams.

Then in 16-17 he lost both of his centers. They were replaced with Kaminsky and Zeller, both poor rebounders. Kaminsky ranked 154th and Zeller 123d. Clifford was forced to gang rebound to make up for it. MKG and Batum were the teams best def rebounders that season. Even though his team ranked 3d in Def Rebounding, the defense free fell to 17th in NBA. His system, like most of the Van Gundy coaching tree, is founded on good rebounding centers.

That was basically his final season in Charlotte as the following year he only coached first 20 games because of his health scare.

There will be a massive hole on both ends of the floor if the team doesn't sign Vucevic. D-Lo (or someone else) can fix the offense but the Magic will also need to add a good rebounding C if they want to give Clifford something to work with...neither Birch or Dedmon are fixing that as neither excel in that department.

It's interesting that of all that, his team's best regular season record came in the season that Jefferson only played 24mpg for 47 games, with Zeller, Hawes and Kaminsky making up the rest. Jefferson had a 24% Dreb% that season, and Hawes was the only other big to average over 20%.

Not sure why you don't think Dedmon could handle the role as a defensive rebounding C? His Drb% for the past 3 seasons are 25%, 28% and 30% (for the Spurs). Plus, now he's shooting 3.4 3fgas and connecting on 38%. Seems to me he'd do a perfect job as a role player on both ends of the court. His box outs aren't as strong as Vuc's, at 6.6bopg per36 vs Vuc's 9.5bopg, but I'm sure Clifford can find a workaround for that.

That's the year Kemba broke out. He jumped from an inefficient 17ppg (.486 TS% / .303 3P%) to 21ppg (.554 TS% / .376 3P%). Best offense Clifford built entire time in Charlotte (ranked 9th).

That's also the year that Jefferson was suspended for drug violation, missed big chunk in middle of season because of it...and came off bench afterwards but still played key role as 6th man (12p/6r in 24 min).

Dedmon will be fine...but his DReb is dropping fast, and it worries me that in relation to his age and reliance on speed and athleticism that's one of the things that falls off first for those type of bigs. Could just be that he is on tanking team so that possibly slowed his motor vs when he was with Spurs playing for something.

[basketballRob]

Actually in his first 3 seasons he achieved #1 Def Rebounding with two very good rebounders: Al Jefferson and Biyombo. Both were ranked in top 20 Def Rebounding (each in 2 of those 3 seasons). During that 3 year stretch he built three top 10 defenses. That was fundamental to those teams.

Then in 16-17 he lost both of his centers. They were replaced with Kaminsky and Zeller, both poor rebounders. Kaminsky ranked 154th and Zeller 123d. Clifford was forced to gang rebound to make up for it. MKG and Batum were the teams best def rebounders that season. Even though his team ranked 3d in Def Rebounding, the defense free fell to 17th in NBA. His system, like most of the Van Gundy coaching tree, is founded on good rebounding centers.

That was basically his final season in Charlotte as the following year he only coached first 20 games because of his health scare.

There will be a massive hole on both ends of the floor if the team doesn't sign Vucevic. D-Lo (or someone else) can fix the offense but the Magic will also need to add a good rebounding C if they want to give Clifford something to work with...neither Birch or Dedmon are fixing that as neither excel in that department.

It's interesting that of all that, his team's best regular season record came in the season that Jefferson only played 24mpg for 47 games, with Zeller, Hawes and Kaminsky making up the rest. Jefferson had a 24% Dreb% that season, and Hawes was the only other big to average over 20%.

Not sure why you don't think Dedmon could handle the role as a defensive rebounding C? His Drb% for the past 3 seasons are 25%, 28% and 30% (for the Spurs). Plus, now he's shooting 3.4 3fgas and connecting on 38%. Seems to me he'd do a perfect job as a role player on both ends of the court. His box outs aren't as strong as Vuc's, at 6.6bopg per36 vs Vuc's 9.5bopg, but I'm sure Clifford can find a workaround for that.

That's the year Kemba broke out. He jumped from an inefficient 17ppg (.486 TS% / .303 3P%) to 21ppg (.554 TS% / .376 3P%). Best offense Clifford built entire time in Charlotte (ranked 9th).

That's also the year that Jefferson was suspended for drug violation, missed big chunk in middle of season because of it...and came off bench afterwards but still played key role as 6th man (12p/6r in 24 min).

Dedmon will be fine...but his DReb is dropping fast, and it worries me that in relation to his age and reliance on speed and athleticism that's one of the things that falls off first for those type of bigs. Could just be that he is on tanking team so that possibly slowed his motor vs when he was with Spurs playing for something.

I'm glad you brought up Kemba's turnaround with Cliff. Right DLo is far superior to what Kemba was at 22, could you imagine what he could be with Cliff?

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[yoyojw17]

I would love to see vuc stay around and lead this team to success. I think he's a great individual and better talent.

BUT... if the team swerves towards DLo.... i'm perfectly fine if they believe that they can build something stronger going forward. Will probably need to get a center rental or squeeze whatever bit of talent mozgov has in his final season... or resign birch... while bamba continues to develop.

a DLo/Fultz back court would be pretty sexy. 2 big point guards with a massive and athletic developing front court would beexciting as hell to watch as well. Hope clifford can continue with the midas touch and bringing the best out of all players. Actually in this scenario.... i would kind of understand why they are also looking at bigs in the draft. Fernando, baby mutombo and goga would all be great additions to the team.

[swarlesbarkley]

How anyone can be high on Fultz is mind blowing. Let us all wait until he plays actual basketball in NBA games.

I, for one, am still high on Fultz because even when he was playing through TOS last season (and his rookie season) he showed he was a better playmaker than anyone on our team and could get any shot he wanted. If he plays and still has TOS issues, he's a better version of MCW. If his shot comes back, he's got as high a ceiling as anyone we've had on our team since D12.

All that being said, I'd still love D'Lo on this team. If Fultz comes back healthy and we have D'Lo, that's a scary duo and our 1-2 punch to go with solid players in AG and JI.

[MagicMatic]

The loss of defensive rebounding will have a major impact. That along, with low TOV rate was key to how the Magic controlled possession count to keep teams within reach of their offense. You would eliminate a major factor of sustainability on both ends of the equation.

Birch ranked 61st in DEF REB% amongst NBA centers that played at least 1/3 of season. That was vs 2nd units...I can't see how he even comes remotely close to replacing one of the best defensive rebounders in the NBA vs the bigger and more talented starter units.

Weltman reiterated just a couple weeks ago that they're going to keep bringing Bamba along slowly. We'll get another look at him in summer league and see were he's at. But I'm not expecting his body to have dramatically changed enough in that short span.

It is not better to act now because you can't implement a system around things you don't have.

The Magic's best shot at improvement will be in the trade market in next couple of seasons, not in free agency. Asset retention and accumulation will be critical, as well as internal asset development. That is how WelHam have done it in the past, I don't see them suddenly changing course. If they can retain Vucevic at a reasonable price, I see them keeping him if he wants to stay.

That’s what Clifford is for in teaching them how to be less turnover prone. Just because there isn’t sufficient evidence that the young guys haven’t done it with bigger roles doesn’t mean they absolutely can’t.

Correct, Birch has primarily been playing against second units. The point is that in the hypothetical scenario D-Lo were signed, as opposed to resigning Vuc, the system is going to look different on both sides of the court. Again, that doesn’t mean Clifford can’t instill the same kind of plan into Bamba, Isaac, and AG to continue to remain effective. There are always going to be pros and cons to changing systems based on roster personnel.

The thread is titled “D’lo watch : All things D’lo related”, so I’m going to assume one of the talking points in this thread are mainly surrounding the scenario of what Russell’s impact would be as opposed to using that money to elsewhere. “You can’t implement a system around things you don’t have” is a pretty obtuse way of quelling the notion that Russell in place of Vuc would absolutely change the system and give the younger guys more responsibility. It’s actually a hilarious thing to say considering we currently play “inside-out” with few reliable outside shooters to “implement a system around things we don’t have” .

Lastly, if you are claiming that the trade market will be Orlando’s “best shot at improvement”, who then would you say is going to net us that return? Obviously not precious 30 year old Center Vuc on a $20+m deal in the “next couple of seasons”. I’m not even disagreeing with you that trading is going to be a crucial avenue, but what is even your ideal scenario in the future, if you would rather retain Vuc and Ross, rather than the FO finally start making choices with their own acquisitions and targets?

This offseason should not be another one where WeHam sit on their hands and idly wait for max cap space in 2020 when it won’t matter as much.

The way coaches make players take care of ball is they cut their minutes and take the ball out of their hands.

I've said it several times, if D-Lo (or even Conley) is acquired I have no problem with letting Vucevic go as there would be someone to focus the offense around. BUT if that happens I think the Magic will still have to find a way to bring in rebounding.

Xatticus pointed to GSW as terrible rebounding team that won championship team; saying there are ways around poor rebounding...unfortunately we won't have 2 of the best shooters in NBA history and Kevin Durant to compensate for bad rebounding.

Most good defenses have good defensive rebounding...and the good teams that don't have it are usually elite offensive teams.

Magic don't have good rebounders, Vucevic carried most of that load. They also don't have good shooters or any triple threat type players. Adding D-Lo isn't suddenly turning JI, Iwundu, Bamba and AG into effective offensive players overnight. You can't build a system build around shooting when you don't have shooters. Its very difficult to build an effective rebounding team without a good rebounding C.

You scoff that Vucevic will have no trade value in two years yet Vucevic will still be in his prime, and should still be producing. There is no reason why he would be untradable. There is thing called consolidation trades. Its when multiple players and assets are packaged together to acquire a single better asset. There is NO reason why he can't be part of that type of trade.

I've already pointed out numerous times that Aaron Gordon's contract and Fournier's both reach peak trade value at same time; beginning with next summer (2020) and leading up to the trade deadline of 2021. Both of their contracts combined, just happen to equal a max players salary. The way Gordon's contract was structured to fit that is just too tidy for me to think that wasn't WelHam strategizing for potential package trade involving those two.

This offseason's most realistic use of their cap space is retaining their own free agents.

The bottom line is that given the option to sign a 23 year old allstar with massive potential, to a team that struggles to score with limited playmakers, sounds better than retaining players that ultimately have less value and force Orlando to run a less effective offense.

You could say signing D-lo would impact the defense/rebounding, but I believe more in JI and Bamba’s potential to cover that notion. Also, what Russell brings to the table is far more difficult to find on the market as opposed to defense and rebounding.

Yes, trading 2 years from now should be on the table. We also don’t know what the options will be at that point in time. That also doesn’t mean Orlando should be limiting themselves in trying to solve roster issues now in trying to acquire players like Russell. It could all be smoke and mirrors, but he would solve a lot of issues Orlando currently needs to solve.

[OrlandoNed]

That’s what Clifford is for in teaching them how to be less turnover prone. Just because there isn’t sufficient evidence that the young guys haven’t done it with bigger roles doesn’t mean they absolutely can’t.

Correct, Birch has primarily been playing against second units. The point is that in the hypothetical scenario D-Lo were signed, as opposed to resigning Vuc, the system is going to look different on both sides of the court. Again, that doesn’t mean Clifford can’t instill the same kind of plan into Bamba, Isaac, and AG to continue to remain effective. There are always going to be pros and cons to changing systems based on roster personnel.

The thread is titled “D’lo watch : All things D’lo related”, so I’m going to assume one of the talking points in this thread are mainly surrounding the scenario of what Russell’s impact would be as opposed to using that money to elsewhere. “You can’t implement a system around things you don’t have” is a pretty obtuse way of quelling the notion that Russell in place of Vuc would absolutely change the system and give the younger guys more responsibility. It’s actually a hilarious thing to say considering we currently play “inside-out” with few reliable outside shooters to “implement a system around things we don’t have” .

Lastly, if you are claiming that the trade market will be Orlando’s “best shot at improvement”, who then would you say is going to net us that return? Obviously not precious 30 year old Center Vuc on a $20+m deal in the “next couple of seasons”. I’m not even disagreeing with you that trading is going to be a crucial avenue, but what is even your ideal scenario in the future, if you would rather retain Vuc and Ross, rather than the FO finally start making choices with their own acquisitions and targets?

This offseason should not be another one where WeHam sit on their hands and idly wait for max cap space in 2020 when it won’t matter as much.

The way coaches make players take care of ball is they cut their minutes and take the ball out of their hands.

I've said it several times, if D-Lo (or even Conley) is acquired I have no problem with letting Vucevic go as there would be someone to focus the offense around. BUT if that happens I think the Magic will still have to find a way to bring in rebounding.

Xatticus pointed to GSW as terrible rebounding team that won championship team; saying there are ways around poor rebounding...unfortunately we won't have 2 of the best shooters in NBA history and Kevin Durant to compensate for bad rebounding.

Most good defenses have good defensive rebounding...and the good teams that don't have it are usually elite offensive teams.

Magic don't have good rebounders, Vucevic carried most of that load. They also don't have good shooters or any triple threat type players. Adding D-Lo isn't suddenly turning JI, Iwundu, Bamba and AG into effective offensive players overnight. You can't build a system build around shooting when you don't have shooters. Its very difficult to build an effective rebounding team without a good rebounding C.

You scoff that Vucevic will have no trade value in two years yet Vucevic will still be in his prime, and should still be producing. There is no reason why he would be untradable. There is thing called consolidation trades. Its when multiple players and assets are packaged together to acquire a single better asset. There is NO reason why he can't be part of that type of trade.

I've already pointed out numerous times that Aaron Gordon's contract and Fournier's both reach peak trade value at same time; beginning with next summer (2020) and leading up to the trade deadline of 2021. Both of their contracts combined, just happen to equal a max players salary. The way Gordon's contract was structured to fit that is just too tidy for me to think that wasn't WelHam strategizing for potential package trade involving those two.

This offseason's most realistic use of their cap space is retaining their own free agents.

The bottom line is that given the option to sign a 23 year old allstar with massive potential, to a team that struggles to score with limited playmakers, sounds better than retaining players that ultimately have less value and force Orlando to run a less effective offense.

You could say signing D-lo would impact the defense/rebounding, but I believe more in JI and Bamba’s potential to cover that notion. Also, what Russell brings to the table is far more difficult to find on the market as opposed to defense and rebounding.

Yes, trading 2 years from now should be on the table. We also don’t know what the options will be at that point in time. That also doesn’t mean Orlando should be limiting themselves in trying to solve roster issues now in trying to acquire players like Russell. It could all be smoke and mirrors, but he would solve a lot of issues Orlando currently needs to solve.

The league today is predicated on dynamic perimeter play in both scoring and playmaking, which is something we sorely lack especially at the guard spots. This is why getting a guy like Russell is critical. A highly talented guard or wing will always be more important than an equally talented big. This is why I'd rather have Brooklyn's first time all-star than Orlando's because what is required from the center position at minimum are "garbage man" skills and this is why I'm in favor of renouncing Vuc in order to acquire Russell.

Competitive playoff teams that have multiple quality guards and wings don't need a "luxury" center like Vuc, they just need a garbageman to rebound and defend the rim. Anything extra like shooting and switchable perimeter defense or playmaking is just icing on the cake. In the NBA, this is the ideal construction of a true contender but also because of the demographics of the player base. There are much more guys like Russell than Vuc, but that doesn't mean guys like Vuc are more valuable. Doesn't it make more sense to have a dime-a-dozen garbageman at center and above average perimeter talent in a league with a deep pool of them at the other 4 positions, than have Vuc with below average starting guards like DJ and Fournier?

There is a ceiling to how far a team like ours can go as currently constructed. With our team's overall talent heavily weighing on the center and forward side of the scale, our overall guard talent is suffering a deficit that must be addressed.

[yoyojw17]

The way coaches make players take care of ball is they cut their minutes and take the ball out of their hands.

I've said it several times, if D-Lo (or even Conley) is acquired I have no problem with letting Vucevic go as there would be someone to focus the offense around. BUT if that happens I think the Magic will still have to find a way to bring in rebounding.

Xatticus pointed to GSW as terrible rebounding team that won championship team; saying there are ways around poor rebounding...unfortunately we won't have 2 of the best shooters in NBA history and Kevin Durant to compensate for bad rebounding.

Most good defenses have good defensive rebounding...and the good teams that don't have it are usually elite offensive teams.

Magic don't have good rebounders, Vucevic carried most of that load. They also don't have good shooters or any triple threat type players. Adding D-Lo isn't suddenly turning JI, Iwundu, Bamba and AG into effective offensive players overnight. You can't build a system build around shooting when you don't have shooters. Its very difficult to build an effective rebounding team without a good rebounding C.

You scoff that Vucevic will have no trade value in two years yet Vucevic will still be in his prime, and should still be producing. There is no reason why he would be untradable. There is thing called consolidation trades. Its when multiple players and assets are packaged together to acquire a single better asset. There is NO reason why he can't be part of that type of trade.

I've already pointed out numerous times that Aaron Gordon's contract and Fournier's both reach peak trade value at same time; beginning with next summer (2020) and leading up to the trade deadline of 2021. Both of their contracts combined, just happen to equal a max players salary. The way Gordon's contract was structured to fit that is just too tidy for me to think that wasn't WelHam strategizing for potential package trade involving those two.

This offseason's most realistic use of their cap space is retaining their own free agents.

The bottom line is that given the option to sign a 23 year old allstar with massive potential, to a team that struggles to score with limited playmakers, sounds better than retaining players that ultimately have less value and force Orlando to run a less effective offense.

You could say signing D-lo would impact the defense/rebounding, but I believe more in JI and Bamba’s potential to cover that notion. Also, what Russell brings to the table is far more difficult to find on the market as opposed to defense and rebounding.

Yes, trading 2 years from now should be on the table. We also don’t know what the options will be at that point in time. That also doesn’t mean Orlando should be limiting themselves in trying to solve roster issues now in trying to acquire players like Russell. It could all be smoke and mirrors, but he would solve a lot of issues Orlando currently needs to solve.

The league today is predicated on dynamic perimeter play in both scoring and playmaking, which is something we sorely lack especially at the guard spots. This is why getting a guy like Russell is critical. A highly talented guard or wing will always be more important than an equally talented big. This is why I'd rather have Brooklyn's first time all-star than Orlando's because what is required from the center position at minimum are "garbage man" skills and this is why I'm in favor of renouncing Vuc in order to acquire Russell.

Competitive playoff teams that have multiple quality guards and wings don't need a "luxury" center like Vuc, they just need a garbageman to rebound and defend the rim. Anything extra like shooting and switchable perimeter defense or playmaking is just icing on the cake. In the NBA, this is the ideal construction of a true contender but also because of the demographics of the player base. There are much more guys like Russell than Vuc, but that doesn't mean guys like Vuc are more valuable. Doesn't it make more sense to have a dime-a-dozen garbageman at center and above average perimeter talent in a league with a deep pool of them at the other 4 positions, than have Vuc with below average starting guards like DJ and Fournier?

There is a ceiling to how far a team like ours can go as currently constructed. With our team's overall talent heavily weighing on the center and forward side of the scale, our overall guard talent is suffering a deficit that must be addressed.

I agree. and i'm totally warming up to the chance of picking him up IF we can. As i said earlier... a pairing of DLo and Fultz would be pretty sexy. But the possibility of that is much more in the air than it is for putting together a team of fultz/fournier with a replacement with the 16th/AG/JI/Vuc. As you can see... i put fultz in both plans for the future... because in either plan he is a main catalyst in the outcome of our teams success. So retaining vuc does not mean all things stay the same. Just saying... we gotta not lose sight of how good this team can still be even if we don't make a splash free agency.

[yoyojw17]

How anyone can be high on Fultz is mind blowing. Let us all wait until he plays actual basketball in NBA games.

How can anyone totally disregard Fultz also blows my mind as well. Let us all wait until he plays actual basketball in NBA games. lol

we will see. Hoping for the best. But i'm just trusting in the due diligence of our staff and hoping that they made an intelligent gamble.

Either way... with DLo... we are set for the future in the backcourt and without he is still a huge step in the right direction if he is healthy.

[Skin]

D-Lo is a nice target, but it's more realistic that Fultz returns to 100% health than D-Lo signing here.

[Nyce_1]

D-Lo is a nice target, but it's more realistic that Fultz returns to 100% health than D-Lo signing here.

And the chances of both happening?

[Skin]

D-Lo is a nice target, but it's more realistic that Fultz returns to 100% health than D-Lo signing here.

And the chances of both happening?

0

[pepe1991]

How anyone can be high on Fultz is mind blowing. Let us all wait until he plays actual basketball in NBA games.

How can anyone totally disregard Fultz also blows my mind as well. Let us all wait until he plays actual basketball in NBA games. lol

we will see. Hoping for the best. But i'm just trusting in the due diligence of our staff and hoping that they made an intelligent gamble.

Either way... with DLo... we are set for the future in the backcourt and without he is still a huge step in the right direction if he is healthy.

How can anyone totally disregard Fultz also blows my mind as well

After 2 years of more of less being away from NBA, it's hard to have any high expetations.

[ezzzp]

The way coaches make players take care of ball is they cut their minutes and take the ball out of their hands.

I've said it several times, if D-Lo (or even Conley) is acquired I have no problem with letting Vucevic go as there would be someone to focus the offense around. BUT if that happens I think the Magic will still have to find a way to bring in rebounding.

Xatticus pointed to GSW as terrible rebounding team that won championship team; saying there are ways around poor rebounding...unfortunately we won't have 2 of the best shooters in NBA history and Kevin Durant to compensate for bad rebounding.

Most good defenses have good defensive rebounding...and the good teams that don't have it are usually elite offensive teams.

Magic don't have good rebounders, Vucevic carried most of that load. They also don't have good shooters or any triple threat type players. Adding D-Lo isn't suddenly turning JI, Iwundu, Bamba and AG into effective offensive players overnight. You can't build a system build around shooting when you don't have shooters. Its very difficult to build an effective rebounding team without a good rebounding C.

You scoff that Vucevic will have no trade value in two years yet Vucevic will still be in his prime, and should still be producing. There is no reason why he would be untradable. There is thing called consolidation trades. Its when multiple players and assets are packaged together to acquire a single better asset. There is NO reason why he can't be part of that type of trade.

I've already pointed out numerous times that Aaron Gordon's contract and Fournier's both reach peak trade value at same time; beginning with next summer (2020) and leading up to the trade deadline of 2021. Both of their contracts combined, just happen to equal a max players salary. The way Gordon's contract was structured to fit that is just too tidy for me to think that wasn't WelHam strategizing for potential package trade involving those two.

This offseason's most realistic use of their cap space is retaining their own free agents.

The bottom line is that given the option to sign a 23 year old allstar with massive potential, to a team that struggles to score with limited playmakers, sounds better than retaining players that ultimately have less value and force Orlando to run a less effective offense.

You could say signing D-lo would impact the defense/rebounding, but I believe more in JI and Bamba’s potential to cover that notion. Also, what Russell brings to the table is far more difficult to find on the market as opposed to defense and rebounding.

Yes, trading 2 years from now should be on the table. We also don’t know what the options will be at that point in time. That also doesn’t mean Orlando should be limiting themselves in trying to solve roster issues now in trying to acquire players like Russell. It could all be smoke and mirrors, but he would solve a lot of issues Orlando currently needs to solve.

As I stated, if D-Lo (or even Conley) is acquired I have no problem with letting Vucevic go as there would be someone to focus the offense around.

...but I also have no problem with the Magic keeping Vucevic.

Ideally for me, the Magic do both; there are ways for the Magic to do that. To get there, it means moving DJ and Fournier and letting Ross go. Either way, most D-Lo scenarios are long shots reliant on a lot of IF's, so might as well throw that scenario in as well and it shouldn't just be eliminated - there are a lot of benefits to it. A balanced attack with versatility to play multiple ways.

Russell/Fultz
x/x
Gordon/Iwundu
Isaac/x
Vucevic/Bamba

Russell/Fultz/DJ
Fournier/x
Gordon/Iwundu
Isaac/x
x/Bamba

[drsd]

D-Lo is a nice target, but it's more realistic that Fultz returns to 100% health than D-Lo signing here.

And the chances of both happening?

0

Or even minus-one.

Russell as a Magician is unlikely. Fultz health seems questionable given that Orlando is rumored for various PGs. For Russell to come to Orlando and Fultz to emerge as a starting quality level PG would mean that the Magic front office miss-read both. That is not plausible. If Russell is a Magician next year, it means that Fultz is not healthy, and never will be.