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The case for Matisse Thybulle

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Re: The case for Matisse Thybulle 

Post#21 » by Skin » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:07 am

The Effect wrote:I swear some of you take this love of defense way too far. Not even joking, what is it with this sites obsession with guys who cant score?? SO you really think we are going to plan on winning games 51-45?? Cause if this guys a starter, that might be our only way to win

Seriously, lets say that this guy was a starter on this team, Between Bamba, GOrdon, isaac, Thybulle and DJ\Fultz........WHERE ARE THE POINTS COMING FROM??? Think about that for a second, in that lineupe, AARON GORDON WOULD BE OUR BEST OFFENSIVE PLAYER.......sorry but that team is competing for the #1 pick, not the playoffs

Thanks but no, give me a guy who can actually put the ball in the basket

That's a legit concern and I can understand your pov. However, if you ask me that question in 2-3 years, I bet it would be drastically different than right now. It's hard to answer now because those players are all in their developmental stages. ...and yes, I would say Gordon is still developing as well... I don't think he has plateau'd yet.

We're talking about the 16th pick here. Odds are highly against us getting our #1 scoring option. If that's the concern, why are there not more people clamoring for Carsen Edwards? If Thybulle ends up being a 11-13 ppg guy, but stretches the floor and brings it hard on defense, then he is a very valuable 3 and D commodity. Is there another player out there among SG/SFs that look like 20+ppg guys sitting in our draft range? I don't see one. So Thybulle at a projected 2-4 ppg less but waaaay more defense sounds a lot more intriguing.

Take away Kawhi from TOR and their supporting cast is not head and shoulders above what I hope to project scoring wise from Thybulle, Isaac, Gordon, Bamba and bench. Lowry, Green, Siakam, Gasol.... they got a lot of offensive contribution off the bench. VanVleet, Ibaka... Yeah, it's easy to say "take away Kawhi" but if you look at the way top FAs look at teams to join, they are looking for insta-win situations where they can be one of the main, if not the main scoring option. The key is to win with our young talent. Winning with a maxed out team lead by Vucevic, Ross, Fournier and Gordon is not a situation where a superstar is looking to join... or could even possibly join due to lack of cap space. Jimmy Butler resigning with Philly is a large possibility because they have a solid young core they can win with plus the all important... cap space room.
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Re: The case for Matisse Thybulle 

Post#22 » by fendilim » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:33 am

Skin wrote:
fendilim wrote:He is good but we dont really need another defender, tbh. We need someone who can help offensively. Not even a scorer, but a shooter who can create more space.

And the Oladipo comparison is way off.

Eh I knew some would take the Oladipo reference to another place. It wasn't a player to player comp. It was a raw scorer/good defender comp. I don't think he'll take off as a scorer like Dipo. Prime made a good point about Dipo's scoring having an upward trajectory. My point was mainly that his scoring potential was raw coming out of college. I should've made another comp but Dipo was a thought close to home.

I do think Thybulle has a game more tailored to the NBA and I don't like the Tony Allen, Andre Roberson comps. I see more of a Trevor Ariza, Nic Batum 3D type of player. At 16, I'll take that.

Nick Nurse just said it... Defense and unselfishness won them the championship. To me Thybulle is a championship type chess piece. Whether that's as a starter or off the bench... not sure.

Yehat's true defense and unselfishness will win you a championship. But its useless if you can't outscore your opponent either.

Oladipo was a far better "scorer" in college than Thybulle, IMO.
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Re: The case for Matisse Thybulle 

Post#23 » by Patrick1978 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:23 am

zaymon wrote:If we want to go with great defender i need more from a prospect. Claxton is much longer with great handle for a big and much younger, Williams is not near elite defender but he is versatile, strong and his offense is on another level, Langford has similar physical gifts but with innate scoring ability. Clarke is better defender, bigger and could score even without 3 pointer. If Thybulle had above average passing i could argue he is worth a look, but as he is i see much less potential than in Frazier. He would propably never crack our rotation.

I agree with you on claxton,williams,langford,clarke.
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Re: The case for Matisse Thybulle 

Post#24 » by tiderulz » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:39 pm

Skin wrote:
The Effect wrote:I swear some of you take this love of defense way too far. Not even joking, what is it with this sites obsession with guys who cant score?? SO you really think we are going to plan on winning games 51-45?? Cause if this guys a starter, that might be our only way to win

Seriously, lets say that this guy was a starter on this team, Between Bamba, GOrdon, isaac, Thybulle and DJ\Fultz........WHERE ARE THE POINTS COMING FROM??? Think about that for a second, in that lineupe, AARON GORDON WOULD BE OUR BEST OFFENSIVE PLAYER.......sorry but that team is competing for the #1 pick, not the playoffs

Thanks but no, give me a guy who can actually put the ball in the basket

That's a legit concern and I can understand your pov. However, if you ask me that question in 2-3 years, I bet it would be drastically different than right now. It's hard to answer now because those players are all in their developmental stages. ...and yes, I would say Gordon is still developing as well... I don't think he has plateau'd yet.

We're talking about the 16th pick here. Odds are highly against us getting our #1 scoring option. If that's the concern, why are there not more people clamoring for Carsen Edwards? If Thybulle ends up being a 11-13 ppg guy, but stretches the floor and brings it hard on defense, then he is a very valuable 3 and D commodity. Is there another player out there among SG/SFs that look like 20+ppg guys sitting in our draft range? I don't see one. So Thybulle at a projected 2-4 ppg less but waaaay more defense sounds a lot more intriguing.

Take away Kawhi from TOR and their supporting cast is not head and shoulders above what I hope to project scoring wise from Thybulle, Isaac, Gordon, Bamba and bench. Lowry, Green, Siakam, Gasol.... they got a lot of offensive contribution off the bench. VanVleet, Ibaka... Yeah, it's easy to say "take away Kawhi" but if you look at the way top FAs look at teams to join, they are looking for insta-win situations where they can be one of the main, if not the main scoring option. The key is to win with our young talent. Winning with a maxed out team lead by Vucevic, Ross, Fournier and Gordon is not a situation where a superstar is looking to join... or could even possibly join due to lack of cap space. Jimmy Butler resigning with Philly is a large possibility because they have a solid young core they can win with plus the all important... cap space room.


if Carsen Edwards were 6'5 with 7' wingspan, he would be talked about as a top-10 pick.
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Re: The case for Matisse Thybulle 

Post#25 » by dsg2021 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:47 pm

The last guy you made a case for was someone called Mr. Jonathan Isaac.. and look how that turned out :nod:

Thank you for the great, in-depth read, Skin!
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Re: The case for Matisse Thybulle 

Post#26 » by dsg2021 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:53 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:You had me at elite defense.


Thybulle's solid D to go with the demon pair of Isaac and Gordon.. yes please :nod:
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Re: The case for Matisse Thybulle 

Post#27 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:04 pm

tiderulz wrote:
Skin wrote:
The Effect wrote:I swear some of you take this love of defense way too far. Not even joking, what is it with this sites obsession with guys who cant score?? SO you really think we are going to plan on winning games 51-45?? Cause if this guys a starter, that might be our only way to win

Seriously, lets say that this guy was a starter on this team, Between Bamba, GOrdon, isaac, Thybulle and DJ\Fultz........WHERE ARE THE POINTS COMING FROM??? Think about that for a second, in that lineupe, AARON GORDON WOULD BE OUR BEST OFFENSIVE PLAYER.......sorry but that team is competing for the #1 pick, not the playoffs

Thanks but no, give me a guy who can actually put the ball in the basket

That's a legit concern and I can understand your pov. However, if you ask me that question in 2-3 years, I bet it would be drastically different than right now. It's hard to answer now because those players are all in their developmental stages. ...and yes, I would say Gordon is still developing as well... I don't think he has plateau'd yet.

We're talking about the 16th pick here. Odds are highly against us getting our #1 scoring option. If that's the concern, why are there not more people clamoring for Carsen Edwards? If Thybulle ends up being a 11-13 ppg guy, but stretches the floor and brings it hard on defense, then he is a very valuable 3 and D commodity. Is there another player out there among SG/SFs that look like 20+ppg guys sitting in our draft range? I don't see one. So Thybulle at a projected 2-4 ppg less but waaaay more defense sounds a lot more intriguing.

Take away Kawhi from TOR and their supporting cast is not head and shoulders above what I hope to project scoring wise from Thybulle, Isaac, Gordon, Bamba and bench. Lowry, Green, Siakam, Gasol.... they got a lot of offensive contribution off the bench. VanVleet, Ibaka... Yeah, it's easy to say "take away Kawhi" but if you look at the way top FAs look at teams to join, they are looking for insta-win situations where they can be one of the main, if not the main scoring option. The key is to win with our young talent. Winning with a maxed out team lead by Vucevic, Ross, Fournier and Gordon is not a situation where a superstar is looking to join... or could even possibly join due to lack of cap space. Jimmy Butler resigning with Philly is a large possibility because they have a solid young core they can win with plus the all important... cap space room.


if Carsen Edwards were 6'5 with 7' wingspan, he would be talked about as a top-10 pick.



6'0" with 6'6" wingspan isn't all that bad IMO. Will be interesting to see where this dude goes because I think he's going to shock a ton of people. He has that Grit and shot creation/shot making skills off the charts.

I actually would love to see us move up from 46 to grab a guard. Here's cash considerations & 46 for 35 from Atlanta thanks!
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Re: The case for Matisse Thybulle 

Post#28 » by tiderulz » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:10 pm

MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
Skin wrote:That's a legit concern and I can understand your pov. However, if you ask me that question in 2-3 years, I bet it would be drastically different than right now. It's hard to answer now because those players are all in their developmental stages. ...and yes, I would say Gordon is still developing as well... I don't think he has plateau'd yet.

We're talking about the 16th pick here. Odds are highly against us getting our #1 scoring option. If that's the concern, why are there not more people clamoring for Carsen Edwards? If Thybulle ends up being a 11-13 ppg guy, but stretches the floor and brings it hard on defense, then he is a very valuable 3 and D commodity. Is there another player out there among SG/SFs that look like 20+ppg guys sitting in our draft range? I don't see one. So Thybulle at a projected 2-4 ppg less but waaaay more defense sounds a lot more intriguing.

Take away Kawhi from TOR and their supporting cast is not head and shoulders above what I hope to project scoring wise from Thybulle, Isaac, Gordon, Bamba and bench. Lowry, Green, Siakam, Gasol.... they got a lot of offensive contribution off the bench. VanVleet, Ibaka... Yeah, it's easy to say "take away Kawhi" but if you look at the way top FAs look at teams to join, they are looking for insta-win situations where they can be one of the main, if not the main scoring option. The key is to win with our young talent. Winning with a maxed out team lead by Vucevic, Ross, Fournier and Gordon is not a situation where a superstar is looking to join... or could even possibly join due to lack of cap space. Jimmy Butler resigning with Philly is a large possibility because they have a solid young core they can win with plus the all important... cap space room.


if Carsen Edwards were 6'5 with 7' wingspan, he would be talked about as a top-10 pick.



6'0" with 6'6" wingspan isn't all that bad IMO. Will be interesting to see where this dude goes because I think he's going to shock a ton of people. He has that Grit and shot creation/shot making skills off the charts.

I actually would love to see us move up from 46 to grab a guard. Here's cash considerations & 46 for 35 from Atlanta thanks!

oh, i definitely agree. But leading the big10 in scoring (not sure if 2 years or just 1). solid tournament play. at 6'5, he would be a top-10 pick. at 6'0 he will still get some looks.
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Re: The case for Matisse Thybulle 

Post#29 » by Audi » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:17 pm

I watched approximately 0 min of him in college - is he really "offensively challenged"? His numbers seem efficient, just at a low ppg. Is that due to having teammates filling that role or was he deferring a lot because he has no confidence in his shot or what?
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Re: The case for Matisse Thybulle 

Post#30 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:24 pm

tiderulz wrote:
MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
if Carsen Edwards were 6'5 with 7' wingspan, he would be talked about as a top-10 pick.



6'0" with 6'6" wingspan isn't all that bad IMO. Will be interesting to see where this dude goes because I think he's going to shock a ton of people. He has that Grit and shot creation/shot making skills off the charts.

I actually would love to see us move up from 46 to grab a guard. Here's cash considerations & 46 for 35 from Atlanta thanks!

oh, i definitely agree. But leading the big10 in scoring (not sure if 2 years or just 1). solid tournament play. at 6'5, he would be a top-10 pick. at 6'0 he will still get some looks.


If he was 6’3” he’d be giving Morant a run for that 2nd pick IMO.
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Re: The case for Matisse Thybulle 

Post#31 » by BlueBalls » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:41 pm

If we pass on KPJ for him I'll weep bitter tears.

He's interesting. Watched him 3 times this year. Definitely has some plus value as a defender but I don't think this guy will ever score 10 ppg in the league, and I wasn't impressed with his passing.

Now, should be fall, I'd love him in the 2nd.
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Re: The case for Matisse Thybulle 

Post#32 » by Xatticus » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:07 pm

MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
MartinsIzAfraud wrote:

6'0" with 6'6" wingspan isn't all that bad IMO. Will be interesting to see where this dude goes because I think he's going to shock a ton of people. He has that Grit and shot creation/shot making skills off the charts.

I actually would love to see us move up from 46 to grab a guard. Here's cash considerations & 46 for 35 from Atlanta thanks!

oh, i definitely agree. But leading the big10 in scoring (not sure if 2 years or just 1). solid tournament play. at 6'5, he would be a top-10 pick. at 6'0 he will still get some looks.


If he was 6’3” he’d be giving Morant a run for that 2nd pick IMO.


Ehh...

Someone will give him a shot. I think Isaiah Thomas' career has extended the window of opportunities for players of their ilk, but the list of success stories for players of Edwards' stature isn't long (dodged a pun there). DJ Augustin is among those success stories and Augustin was probably the superior player in college.

Setting that aside for the moment, there are still some huge red flags for Edwards. His AST%/USG% is microscopic, his FTr is quite low, and his finishing at the rim is really poor. This is not a dynamic offensive player. He had a green light and he took full advantage by firing up a ton of 3-point field goal attempts. He hit enough of them to maintain respectable shooting metrics, but nothing spectacular.

The problem with his weaknesses are that they aren't in areas where you can expect a lot of improvement. His facilitation is non-existent. He is not a point guard right now. You can try to teach him to become a facilitator, but he is starting from zero. Free throw rates tend to plummet when players make the jump to the NBA. It's the same regarding finishing at the rim. If you can't finish against college athletes, you are going to have a lot of trouble against NBA athletes.

In any given year, there are undersized or unathletic guards that pile up points at small schools. Edwards finished ninth in points per game this year. Of the eight players that averaged more, five of them fit that description. It's unlikely that any of them will even be given a shot. Edwards will get a shot because he played for Purdue and because he had the best stretch of his career on the biggest stage, but I'm skeptical about his chances of succeeding in the NBA.
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Re: The case for Matisse Thybulle 

Post#33 » by IllMagic04 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:17 pm

MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
MartinsIzAfraud wrote:

6'0" with 6'6" wingspan isn't all that bad IMO. Will be interesting to see where this dude goes because I think he's going to shock a ton of people. He has that Grit and shot creation/shot making skills off the charts.

I actually would love to see us move up from 46 to grab a guard. Here's cash considerations & 46 for 35 from Atlanta thanks!

oh, i definitely agree. But leading the big10 in scoring (not sure if 2 years or just 1). solid tournament play. at 6'5, he would be a top-10 pick. at 6'0 he will still get some looks.


If he was 6’3” he’d be giving Morant a run for that 2nd pick IMO.
I likw Edwards alot. I think someone will grab him at the end of the first round.

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Re: The case for Matisse Thybulle 

Post#34 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:34 pm

Xatticus wrote:
MartinsIzAfraud wrote:
tiderulz wrote:oh, i definitely agree. But leading the big10 in scoring (not sure if 2 years or just 1). solid tournament play. at 6'5, he would be a top-10 pick. at 6'0 he will still get some looks.


If he was 6’3” he’d be giving Morant a run for that 2nd pick IMO.


Ehh...

Someone will give him a shot. I think Isaiah Thomas' career has extended the window of opportunities for players of their ilk, but the list of success stories for players of Edwards' stature isn't long (dodged a pun there). DJ Augustin is among those success stories and Augustin was probably the superior player in college.

Setting that aside for the moment, there are still some huge red flags for Edwards. His AST%/USG% is microscopic, his FTr is quite low, and his finishing at the rim is really poor. This is not a dynamic offensive player. He had a green light and he took full advantage by firing up a ton of 3-point field goal attempts. He hit enough of them to maintain respectable shooting metrics, but nothing spectacular.

The problem with his weaknesses are that they aren't in areas where you can expect a lot of improvement. His facilitation is non-existent. He is not a point guard right now. You can try to teach him to become a facilitator, but he is starting from zero. Free throw rates tend to plummet when players make the jump to the NBA. It's the same regarding finishing at the rim. If you can't finish against college athletes, you are going to have a lot of trouble against NBA athletes.

In any given year, there are undersized or unathletic guards that pile up points at small schools. Edwards finished ninth in points per game this year. Of the eight players that averaged more, five of them fit that description. It's unlikely that any of them will even be given a shot. Edwards will get a shot because he played for Purdue and because he had the best stretch of his career on the biggest stage, but I'm skeptical about his chances of succeeding in the NBA.


oh agree he has some red flags but that Purdue team also lost 4 solid seniors this past year so it was kinda all on Edwards and Cline. I liked his Sophomore season #'s much better and would hope that is the type of player he is in terms of %'s.
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Re: The case for Matisse Thybulle 

Post#35 » by NotACat » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:52 pm

I'd much rather have Shamorie Ponds than Carson Edwards.
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Re: The case for Matisse Thybulle 

Post#36 » by zaymon » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:58 pm

I dont think we have enough corners for limited shooters like Thybulle.
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Re: The case for Matisse Thybulle 

Post#37 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:11 pm

NotACat wrote:I'd much rather have Shamorie Ponds than Carson Edwards.


Just gimme a PG at 46 and I’d be thrilled.
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Re: The case for Matisse Thybulle 

Post#38 » by tiderulz » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:27 pm

NotACat wrote:I'd much rather have Shamorie Ponds than Carson Edwards.

I wouldnt mind him with our 2nd either.
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Re: The case for Matisse Thybulle 

Post#39 » by Skin » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:06 pm

dsg2021 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:You had me at elite defense.


Thybulle's solid D to go with the demon pair of Isaac and Gordon.. yes please :nod:

+Bamba... :nod: :nod: :nod:

Now you're starting to see the vision of length, athleticism, defense, hustle, spacing and unselfishness come together.... 8-)
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Re: The case for Matisse Thybulle 

Post#40 » by Skin » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:10 pm

zaymon wrote:I dont think we have enough corners for limited shooters like Thybulle.

Food for thought.... Thybulle shot .405 from 3PT land in the year he played next to Markelle Fultz.

When opposing teams were focusing their defense on the aggressiveness of Fultz, Thybulle took advantage of it.
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