Steve Clifford applauds free-agent signings, team’s roster versatility

[PrimeThyme]

If only all of us had the same GM knowledge and basketball IQ as Ezzzp. Only then could we praise every move Weham has ever made and accept them as the greatest NBA front office executives to ever graze this Earth.

[spinedoc]

It's a little bit of a stretch to suggest that people who agree with this summer's FO decisions have similar motivations to those of the Gestapo. I mean, I'm pretty sure that the reasons I like the Vooch signing have nothing to do with centuries-old traditions of violent antisemitism, widespread post-traumatic stress from World War One, or the sense of desperation caused by a global economic depression.

I'm pretty sure that the reason I like the Vooch decision is that I think he is a good player who makes our team better.

Well, color me the embarrassed one. My support was based purely on antisemitism.

As far as this being a hard nuanced job...…HOGWASH! Its nothing of the sort. A job with this many extraneous variables is extremely easy, easy to obtain similar results as the vast majority of the league anyway. I know I could do it in my sleep. The only thing that takes experience is the relationships involved. Having other gm's trust you and take your call as a result. The rest, pure randomness can have success given all the unknown variables involved. I'm sorry, but I don't see much expertise in what they do.

[MagicMatic]

As he should. Gotta keep that positive energy going.

A lot of people would have for Hennigan too... oops.

[Catledge]

It's a little bit of a stretch to suggest that people who agree with this summer's FO decisions have similar motivations to those of the Gestapo. I mean, I'm pretty sure that the reasons I like the Vooch signing have nothing to do with centuries-old traditions of violent antisemitism, widespread post-traumatic stress from World War One, or the sense of desperation caused by a global economic depression.

I'm pretty sure that the reason I like the Vooch decision is that I think he is a good player who makes our team better.

Well, color me the embarrassed one. My support was based purely on antisemitism.

As far as this being a hard nuanced job...…HOGWASH! Its nothing of the sort. A job with this many extraneous variables is extremely easy, easy to obtain similar results as the vast majority of the league anyway. I know I could do it in my sleep. The only thing that takes experience is the relationships involved. Having other gm's trust you and take your call as a result. The rest, pure randomness can have success given all the unknown variables involved. I'm sorry, but I don't see much expertise in what they do.

It's kind of like being a good poker player. If you are good at recognizing when you have, say, a 65% chance to win a hand, and you bet heavy each time, then you would be a pretty good poker player. But you would still have to get crazy lucky to win a tournament.

Being an NBA GM is similar. You're mostly picking from a range of low-percentage options, so even if you pick the best of them, then odds are still against you. So even the best GMs have to get lucky and avoid being unlucky. John Gabriel went all-in with two kings, and he ran into a royal poop flush.

[ezzzp]

If only all of us had the same GM knowledge and basketball IQ as Ezzzp. Only then could we praise every move Weham has ever made and accept them as the greatest NBA front office executives to ever graze this Earth.

People like you think that because you watch some games from the safety of your couch you suddenly know more than a GM.

I'm the one saying that I don't have anywhere near that level of expertise. So when they say things I listen and then I judge how that relates to their actions - and then I judge it to my own statistical/cap research + my own eye test to see if I trust it. So far, they've mostly made moves that I agree with.

If I was just a hopeless follower then why was I one of the biggest critics of the Rob Hennigan regime and his idiotic tank strategy?

[spinedoc]

It's a little bit of a stretch to suggest that people who agree with this summer's FO decisions have similar motivations to those of the Gestapo. I mean, I'm pretty sure that the reasons I like the Vooch signing have nothing to do with centuries-old traditions of violent antisemitism, widespread post-traumatic stress from World War One, or the sense of desperation caused by a global economic depression.

I'm pretty sure that the reason I like the Vooch decision is that I think he is a good player who makes our team better.

Well, color me the embarrassed one. My support was based purely on antisemitism.

As far as this being a hard nuanced job...…HOGWASH! Its nothing of the sort. A job with this many extraneous variables is extremely easy, easy to obtain similar results as the vast majority of the league anyway. I know I could do it in my sleep. The only thing that takes experience is the relationships involved. Having other gm's trust you and take your call as a result. The rest, pure randomness can have success given all the unknown variables involved. I'm sorry, but I don't see much expertise in what they do.

It's kind of like being a good poker player. If you are good at recognizing when you have, say, a 65% chance to win a hand, and you bet heavy each time, then you would be a pretty good poker player. But you would still have to get crazy lucky to win a tournament.

Being an NBA GM is similar. You're mostly picking from a range of low-percentage options, so even if you pick the best of them, then odds are still against you. So even the best GMs have to get lucky and avoid being unlucky. John Gabriel went all-in with two kings, and he ran into a royal poop flush.

Great analogy, you play the odds but you still need to get some good cards at some point. And even if you have the best hand, you can still get beat on the river. Also, as a gm you are playing with someone else's money, even better.

[MagicMatic]

If only all of us had the same GM knowledge and basketball IQ as Ezzzp. Only then could we praise every move Weham has ever made and accept them as the greatest NBA front office executives to ever graze this Earth.

People like you think that because you watch some games from the safety of your couch you suddenly know more than a GM.

I'm the one saying that I don't have anywhere near that level of expertise. So when they say things I listen and then I judge how that relates to their actions - and then I judge it to my own statistical/cap research + my own eye test to see if I trust it. So far, they've mostly made moves that I agree with.

If I was just a hopeless follower then why was I one of the biggest critics of the Rob Hennigan regime and his idiotic tank strategy?

Nobody is claiming to have more knowledge than an NBA GM that has been doing the job for 10-20 years. Every GM has a different strategy Hinkie, Hennigan, Morey, Hammond, etc. Whether you agree or disagree with their styles, or where they place emphasis, is what we are talking about. Ernie Grunfeld has also been doing the job for 16 seasons does that mean he’s more capable than what Hennigan accomplished in his first few seasons in Orlando before making short sighted moves? Are you saying no one as tenured as him is more capable? Wizards fans would disagree entirely. Flawed logic.

[Xatticus]

I think this kind of exemplifies a fundamental disconnect in different lines of reasoning.

Stanley Milgram conducted some very famous experiments on obedience to authority. The goal was to explain how something like the holocaust could happen. In short, he found that roughly two thirds of the population would willingly shock someone to death with a bit of urging from a perceived authority figure.

There are different theories as to why this is. I tend to like the theory on self-domestication. We've bred subservience into our own species. It explains what makes us such wonderful corporate tools.

"The boss is right because he is the boss".

It's circular and simple-minded reasoning. Not everyone gives Clifford's words the same degree of authoritative credence.

Two years ago, the Clippers finished with a disappointing 51 wins and so decided to tear down the core of a team that seemed to have reached its ceiling. They have since turned over the entirety of their roster. They dumped or traded Chris Paul, JJ Redick, Blake Griffin, and DeAndre Jordan. This past season, they won 48 games with a roster led by Montrezl Harrell and Danilo Gallinari. They were 18-9 after they traded away Tobias Harris. Perhaps the Clippers front office figured out that Blake Griffin's 23 ppg, 8 rpg, and 5 apg didn't really amount to many extra wins?

I certainly hope that Clifford's logic wasn't the reasoning behind why we committed roughly 20% of our cap space to Vucevic. I like Clifford. I think that, on the whole, he is an above average coach in this league. That said, I don't believe he is the sharpest tool in the shed and I hope that he has no direct influence on roster decisions.

I stuck with Hennigan for a long time and I haven't turned on this front office yet. That said, my honest appraisal of Weltman at present is that he is ultra-conservative and bereft of ideas.

I enjoyed this, however, I’ve been meaning to ask because of your handle, are you THE Atticus? Poet, writer, wine maker? *serious question*

She asked me once
in a dream
if we could fly
would the clouds...

I said, "Let me stop you right there. I'm not that dude".


Xatticus

[Driguez]

I think this kind of exemplifies a fundamental disconnect in different lines of reasoning.

Stanley Milgram conducted some very famous experiments on obedience to authority. The goal was to explain how something like the holocaust could happen. In short, he found that roughly two thirds of the population would willingly shock someone to death with a bit of urging from a perceived authority figure.

There are different theories as to why this is. I tend to like the theory on self-domestication. We've bred subservience into our own species. It explains what makes us such wonderful corporate tools.

"The boss is right because he is the boss".

It's circular and simple-minded reasoning. Not everyone gives Clifford's words the same degree of authoritative credence.

Two years ago, the Clippers finished with a disappointing 51 wins and so decided to tear down the core of a team that seemed to have reached its ceiling. They have since turned over the entirety of their roster. They dumped or traded Chris Paul, JJ Redick, Blake Griffin, and DeAndre Jordan. This past season, they won 48 games with a roster led by Montrezl Harrell and Danilo Gallinari. They were 18-9 after they traded away Tobias Harris. Perhaps the Clippers front office figured out that Blake Griffin's 23 ppg, 8 rpg, and 5 apg didn't really amount to many extra wins?

I certainly hope that Clifford's logic wasn't the reasoning behind why we committed roughly 20% of our cap space to Vucevic. I like Clifford. I think that, on the whole, he is an above average coach in this league. That said, I don't believe he is the sharpest tool in the shed and I hope that he has no direct influence on roster decisions.

I stuck with Hennigan for a long time and I haven't turned on this front office yet. That said, my honest appraisal of Weltman at present is that he is ultra-conservative and bereft of ideas.

I enjoyed this, however, I’ve been meaning to ask because of your handle, are you THE Atticus? Poet, writer, wine maker? *serious question*

She asked me once
in a dream
if we could fly
would the clouds...

I said, "Let me stop you right there. I'm not that dude".


Xatticus

[npiper17]

Surely anyone who works in any line of work can accept that just because someone has been doing something for a long time doesn’t necessarily mean they’re any good at it.

[OrlChamps2030]

If only all of us had the same GM knowledge and basketball IQ as Ezzzp. Only then could we praise every move Weham has ever made and accept them as the greatest NBA front office executives to ever graze this Earth.

People like you think that because you watch some games from the safety of your couch you suddenly know more than a GM.

I'm the one saying that I don't have anywhere near that level of expertise. So when they say things I listen and then I judge how that relates to their actions - and then I judge it to my own statistical/cap research + my own eye test to see if I trust it. So far, they've mostly made moves that I agree with.

If I was just a hopeless follower then why was I one of the biggest critics of the Rob Hennigan regime and his idiotic tank strategy?

What? Weren’t you a Hennigan apologist that was even defending the Tobias trade?

[Xatticus]

I think this kind of exemplifies a fundamental disconnect in different lines of reasoning.

Stanley Milgram conducted some very famous experiments on obedience to authority. The goal was to explain how something like the holocaust could happen. In short, he found that roughly two thirds of the population would willingly shock someone to death with a bit of urging from a perceived authority figure.

There are different theories as to why this is. I tend to like the theory on self-domestication. We've bred subservience into our own species. It explains what makes us such wonderful corporate tools.

"The boss is right because he is the boss".

It's circular and simple-minded reasoning. Not everyone gives Clifford's words the same degree of authoritative credence.

Two years ago, the Clippers finished with a disappointing 51 wins and so decided to tear down the core of a team that seemed to have reached its ceiling. They have since turned over the entirety of their roster. They dumped or traded Chris Paul, JJ Redick, Blake Griffin, and DeAndre Jordan. This past season, they won 48 games with a roster led by Montrezl Harrell and Danilo Gallinari. They were 18-9 after they traded away Tobias Harris. Perhaps the Clippers front office figured out that Blake Griffin's 23 ppg, 8 rpg, and 5 apg didn't really amount to many extra wins?

I certainly hope that Clifford's logic wasn't the reasoning behind why we committed roughly 20% of our cap space to Vucevic. I like Clifford. I think that, on the whole, he is an above average coach in this league. That said, I don't believe he is the sharpest tool in the shed and I hope that he has no direct influence on roster decisions.

I stuck with Hennigan for a long time and I haven't turned on this front office yet. That said, my honest appraisal of Weltman at present is that he is ultra-conservative and bereft of ideas.

That's quite the leap to justify bias.

Simple-minded reasoning would be for a fan to assume that they know more about the construction and coaching of an NBA roster than people at the top of their field in an extremely competitive industry. Those fans just don't have the data access, the experience or the knowledge base to dismiss that expertise as if it was meaningless. On top of that they do not know those people except through a highly mediated lens from fan distance; rendering their opinion of Clifford's intelligence even more comical and totally lacking self-awareness.

The Clippers are based in Los Angeles. They can churn through talent without consequence because they play in the most desirable free agent destination market in the NBA. Orlando is not Los Angeles.

Do you actually believe that the world is a meritocracy? How do Billy King or Isiah Thomas fit into your theory? How do you explain the New York Knicks?

I feel like I'm showing dinosaur bones to a creationist.

Getting a job means you are good at getting that job. It doesn't mean that you are good at the job.

There is no rung on the ladder that is impervious to incompetence. This is why empires rise and fall.

"Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening, terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities — the political, the religious, the educational authorities — who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing — forming in our minds — their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable open-mindedness, chaotic, confused vulnerability to inform yourself.".

-Timothy Leary


Oh... and you clearly don't know anything about the history of the Los Angeles Clippers.

[MagicMatic]

Surely anyone who works in any line of work can accept that just because someone has been doing something for a long time doesn’t necessarily mean they’re any good at it.

Precisely.

[Xatticus]

It's a little bit of a stretch to suggest that people who agree with this summer's FO decisions have similar motivations to those of the Gestapo. I mean, I'm pretty sure that the reasons I like the Vooch signing have nothing to do with centuries-old traditions of violent antisemitism, widespread post-traumatic stress from World War One, or the sense of desperation caused by a global economic depression.

I'm pretty sure that the reason I like the Vooch decision is that I think he is a good player who makes our team better.

I would agree. That's why I didn't suggest it. Way to get in on the whole #MeToo thing though.

[spinedoc]

I think this kind of exemplifies a fundamental disconnect in different lines of reasoning.

Stanley Milgram conducted some very famous experiments on obedience to authority. The goal was to explain how something like the holocaust could happen. In short, he found that roughly two thirds of the population would willingly shock someone to death with a bit of urging from a perceived authority figure.

There are different theories as to why this is. I tend to like the theory on self-domestication. We've bred subservience into our own species. It explains what makes us such wonderful corporate tools.

"The boss is right because he is the boss".

It's circular and simple-minded reasoning. Not everyone gives Clifford's words the same degree of authoritative credence.

Two years ago, the Clippers finished with a disappointing 51 wins and so decided to tear down the core of a team that seemed to have reached its ceiling. They have since turned over the entirety of their roster. They dumped or traded Chris Paul, JJ Redick, Blake Griffin, and DeAndre Jordan. This past season, they won 48 games with a roster led by Montrezl Harrell and Danilo Gallinari. They were 18-9 after they traded away Tobias Harris. Perhaps the Clippers front office figured out that Blake Griffin's 23 ppg, 8 rpg, and 5 apg didn't really amount to many extra wins?

I certainly hope that Clifford's logic wasn't the reasoning behind why we committed roughly 20% of our cap space to Vucevic. I like Clifford. I think that, on the whole, he is an above average coach in this league. That said, I don't believe he is the sharpest tool in the shed and I hope that he has no direct influence on roster decisions.

I stuck with Hennigan for a long time and I haven't turned on this front office yet. That said, my honest appraisal of Weltman at present is that he is ultra-conservative and bereft of ideas.

I didn't see this until now. I know that experiment, and have seen it, I'm a psych major as well. Even with people under extreme stress they still shocked others, people screaming in pain, so they thought anyway. Its about authority and our views toward that sure, but its also about conformity. Another experiment by Solomon Asch showed that people would knowingly give the wrong answer on a test in order to fit in. you say it was bred into us, but I believe its human nature to a large degree. Not all of us can be sheep dogs, a lot of us need to be sheep too. Very interesting though, thanks.

[ezzzp]

If only all of us had the same GM knowledge and basketball IQ as Ezzzp. Only then could we praise every move Weham has ever made and accept them as the greatest NBA front office executives to ever graze this Earth.

People like you think that because you watch some games from the safety of your couch you suddenly know more than a GM.

I'm the one saying that I don't have anywhere near that level of expertise. So when they say things I listen and then I judge how that relates to their actions - and then I judge it to my own statistical/cap research + my own eye test to see if I trust it. So far, they've mostly made moves that I agree with.

If I was just a hopeless follower then why was I one of the biggest critics of the Rob Hennigan regime and his idiotic tank strategy?

Nobody is claiming to have more knowledge than an NBA GM that has been doing the job for 10-20 years. Every GM has a different strategy Hinkie, Hennigan, Morey, Hammond, etc. Whether you agree or disagree with their styles or where they place emphasis is what we are talking about. Ernie Grunfeld has also been doing the job for 16 seasons does that mean he’s more capable than what Hennigan accomplished in his first few seasons in Orlando before making short sighted moves? Are you saying no one as tenured of him is as capable? Wizards fans would disagree entirely. Flawed logic.

Uh yea they are absolutely claiming that, go back and read the comments on this thread...several people literally say they do.

Style of GM is not what they are talking about.

Ernie Grunfeld was responsible for the 90's Knicks teams. He's the one that discovered Pat Riley and in his 8 seasons built two NBA Finals rosters, two ECF rosters and 4 second round teams. Rob Hennigan destroyed the Magic franchise and turned it into the laughing stock of the NBA.

[MagicMatic]

People like you think that because you watch some games from the safety of your couch you suddenly know more than a GM.

I'm the one saying that I don't have anywhere near that level of expertise. So when they say things I listen and then I judge how that relates to their actions - and then I judge it to my own statistical/cap research + my own eye test to see if I trust it. So far, they've mostly made moves that I agree with.

If I was just a hopeless follower then why was I one of the biggest critics of the Rob Hennigan regime and his idiotic tank strategy?

Nobody is claiming to have more knowledge than an NBA GM that has been doing the job for 10-20 years. Every GM has a different strategy Hinkie, Hennigan, Morey, Hammond, etc. Whether you agree or disagree with their styles or where they place emphasis is what we are talking about. Ernie Grunfeld has also been doing the job for 16 seasons does that mean he’s more capable than what Hennigan accomplished in his first few seasons in Orlando before making short sighted moves? Are you saying no one as tenured of him is as capable? Wizards fans would disagree entirely. Flawed logic.

Uh yea they are absolutely claiming that, go back and read the comments on this thread...several people literally say they do.

Style of GM is not what they are talking about.

Ernie Grunfeld was responsible for the 90's Knicks teams. He's the one that discovered Pat Riley and in his 8 seasons built two NBA Finals rosters, two ECF rosters and 4 second round teams. Rob Hennigan destroyed the Magic franchise and turned it into the laughing stock of the NBA.

WeHam have a draft preference on length and listen to ownership of drafting “good people”,as their primary metric, even if it completely deters from addressing glaring need. Also, deciding to double down and re-invest in a roster they largely inherited is another set of decisions that ARE NOT devoid of criticism. Especially to a fan base, on a fan forum, that have been watching and backing despite being irrelevant for almost a decade.

GM’s are not always correct in the moves that they make. Weltham will not always make the right moves. Their jobs aren’t easy, but are absolutely up for criticism in the public eye. That’s part of the job. There are plenty of examples of GMs that shouldn’t be working or have ruined franchises making idiotic choices.

[spinedoc]

People like you think that because you watch some games from the safety of your couch you suddenly know more than a GM.

I'm the one saying that I don't have anywhere near that level of expertise. So when they say things I listen and then I judge how that relates to their actions - and then I judge it to my own statistical/cap research + my own eye test to see if I trust it. So far, they've mostly made moves that I agree with.

If I was just a hopeless follower then why was I one of the biggest critics of the Rob Hennigan regime and his idiotic tank strategy?

Nobody is claiming to have more knowledge than an NBA GM that has been doing the job for 10-20 years. Every GM has a different strategy Hinkie, Hennigan, Morey, Hammond, etc. Whether you agree or disagree with their styles or where they place emphasis is what we are talking about. Ernie Grunfeld has also been doing the job for 16 seasons does that mean he’s more capable than what Hennigan accomplished in his first few seasons in Orlando before making short sighted moves? Are you saying no one as tenured of him is as capable? Wizards fans would disagree entirely. Flawed logic.

Uh yea they are absolutely claiming that, go back and read the comments on this thread...several people literally say they do.

Style of GM is not what they are talking about.

Ernie Grunfeld was responsible for the 90's Knicks teams. He's the one that discovered Pat Riley and in his 8 seasons built two NBA Finals rosters, two ECF rosters and 4 second round teams. Rob Hennigan destroyed the Magic franchise and turned it into the laughing stock of the NBA.

I don't think people are saying they have more knowledge, at least I'm not. I'm saying that it doesn't take a vast amount to do this job. Are there general managers schools or degrees that people can obtain? What essential knowledge does it take to do this job? Its so random, that's why organizations go through so many, they keep trying to shuffle the deck as well as the gm himself. Keep trying pieces to see if they fit. Its nothing more than trial and error, I've seen monkey's do the same thing at the zoo.

[ezzzp]

Do you actually believe that the world is a meritocracy? How do Billy King or Isiah Thomas fit into your theory? How do you explain the New York Knicks?

I feel like I'm showing dinosaur bones to a creationist.

Getting a job means you are good at getting that job. It doesn't mean that you are good at the job.

There is no rung on the ladder that is impervious to incompetence. This is why empires rise and fall.

"Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening, terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities — the political, the religious, the educational authorities — who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing — forming in our minds — their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable open-mindedness, chaotic, confused vulnerability to inform yourself.".

-Timothy Leary

Oh... and you clearly don't know anything about the history of the Los Angeles Clippers.

Do you actually believe that expertise doesn't matter? How do Steve Jobs and Jerry West fit into your theory?

FYI the NY Knicks were one of the marquee franchises in the 90's and have been throughout the history of the NBA. It wasn't until James Dolan took ownership that the Knick franchise has been totally mismanaged. Guess why? Because he didn't know jack s**t about basketball and won't get out of the way of people who do.

I feel like I'm showing calculus to a kindergarten student.

Not every job is the same. Some jobs have a threshold that excludes the majority.

Quoting Leary doesn't exclude you from conformity. In fact, I would argue that most of your opinions on here fall in line with the herd. On the other hand, I'm one of the few on this forum that is actually often arguing against consensus opinion.

I know the history of the Clippers, you clearly don't know me. Again, ownership matters. But if its in a major market like LA or NY, top tier players still keep pushing their way there Carmello Anthony, Chris Paul etc despite knowledge of bad ownership.

[MagicMatic]

Nobody is claiming to have more knowledge than an NBA GM that has been doing the job for 10-20 years. Every GM has a different strategy Hinkie, Hennigan, Morey, Hammond, etc. Whether you agree or disagree with their styles or where they place emphasis is what we are talking about. Ernie Grunfeld has also been doing the job for 16 seasons does that mean he’s more capable than what Hennigan accomplished in his first few seasons in Orlando before making short sighted moves? Are you saying no one as tenured of him is as capable? Wizards fans would disagree entirely. Flawed logic.

Uh yea they are absolutely claiming that, go back and read the comments on this thread...several people literally say they do.

Style of GM is not what they are talking about.

Ernie Grunfeld was responsible for the 90's Knicks teams. He's the one that discovered Pat Riley and in his 8 seasons built two NBA Finals rosters, two ECF rosters and 4 second round teams. Rob Hennigan destroyed the Magic franchise and turned it into the laughing stock of the NBA.

I don't think people are saying they have more knowledge, at least I'm not. I'm saying that it doesn't take a vast amount to do this job. Are there general managers schools or degrees that people can obtain? What essential knowledge does it take to do this job? Its so random, that's why organizations go through so many, they keep trying to shuffle the deck as well as the gm himself. Keep trying pieces to see if they fit. Its nothing more than trial and error, I've seen monkey's do the same thing at the zoo.

I don’t know man... I heard James Jones went to GM school because he held Lebron’s bags and hit an occasional corner 3...

It’s a very prestigious and exclusive club y’know....