pepe1991 wrote:Xatticus wrote:pepe1991 wrote:
But Payton fans being wrong all along is something factual.
He indeed hurt Magic defense and did not help offense.
He indeed never improved as shooter.
His efficiency ( eFG%) stayed pathetic after 5 years.
He is career liability on offense and defense.
At age of 25 only contract he could get was 1 year guaranteed money ( with second year only $1m guaranteed) from team projected to have the worst record in nba.
Pelicans are third team in 3 years that wanted no part of him going forward.
So maybe "negative Nancy " type posters were actually objective and on point all along, and his fanboys were simply wrong?
As i said, it's not even debatable, posters here who had " Payton is championship point guard" threads and who claimed he is better than Tony Parker at 22 were simply - flat out wrong.
Unlike case with Elfrid Payton, virtually nobody ever claimed that Gordon sucks. But that he will, or will not be star player.
Ahh... here we are again. I keep trying to let this die. Almost everything stated here is incorrect.
Payton's eFG% climbed every season he was in Orlando:
17/18: .547 ...so pathetic
That's the damnedest example of stagnation that I've ever seen.
The whole Parker/Payton argument was created by YOU. Even as Payton was clearly demonstrating improvement as a 3-point shooter (37% in his final season with Orlando), you were arguing that he still couldn't be a good offensive player because he didn't take enough of them. In the very same thread, you listed a number of examples of elite point guards and Tony Parker was among them. This despite the fact that Tony Parker was rather notorious for eliminating the 3-point shot from his offensive game. It was a hypocritical argument and you got called on it. You have since morphed it into 'a horde of Payton fanboys said Payton was better than Tony Parker!'
You just can't seem to help yourself. You keep bringing this up at every opportunity. What does any of this have to do with Aaron Gordon?
So Payton is good, according to you?
Also his eFG with Suns was pathetic - 44,7%
and with Pelicans 47,5%
Since he left Magic , in year and half, guy made 35 threes total. His "recepy" for 3s is never shoot them. Needles to say he was wide open on every attemp.
After cutting 3s last year he cut all mid range shots as well. 96% of all his shots were either inside 10 feet or 3s, yet even that didn't help his efficiency.
It was well documented fact that Payton was one of the worst decision makers on defense in whole league and player that would make your pick&roll defense worthless with constant mental errors , as part of his departure ( and new coaching ) Magic defense saw incredible growth.
But even as part of addition by substraction, with taking him off roster Magic defense went from league's 27th "best" -110,5 to 106,8 , with ranked them 10th best.
That's huge.The whole Parker/Payton argument was created by YOU.
From Soul calling me troll ( that got him 11 likes, your included) , posters claiming he is not finished product at 23, that his improvment will be huge ,walking triple double and all other nonsense.
Oh ,and it's pretty obvious that i DID NOT START PAYTON - PARKER comparison ,rather just react to one after poster wrote it.Elfrid Payton is possibly one of the top 3 pure point guards in this league
That's direct qoute from opening post of thread called "Elfrid Payton is a championship point guard".
And this is qoute from youFor clarification, I've never been off of the Payton bandwagon. I also am not trumpeting what he has been doing of late as the foundation for that, as I'm rather ambivalent on the topic of triple-doubles. It's nice to rack up counting stats, but they provide only a rudimentary understanding of a player's contributions. And frankly, ten is really an arbitrary number that only has meaning because it is the basis for our numeric system.
I've been asking for the offense to run through Payton for the last couple seasons, and I've been baffled as to why we've been trying to force it through Fournier and Vucevic. I want to see an aggressive Elfrid Payton in transition as much as possible, because that is where he was exceptional in college. He is far and away the best facilitator on this team.
I can appreciate the need for any player to be a threat on offense, just as I don't believe anyone's offensive contributions absolve them of their defensive deficiencies. What I take exception to, however, are declarations that Payton will never be such a threat and must be moved. He has clearly improved significantly in his offensive efficiency and i'd be very reluctant to part with any young player that is showing genuine signs of figuring things out. If he regresses next season, then we can have this conversation.
This thread has invited criticism of Payton's game, but it's really a curious time to be ratcheting up that criticism given his improvement on the court.
Amount of bullying from some posters because myself and few others went through about freaking Payton was crazy. Literally people , you included, called us trolls for sharing different opinion on fundamentally flawed player that was piss poor defender, piss poor shooter and terrible decision maker with lazy motor .
Maybe just admit you were wrong and move on? Because you make yourself look pretty bad . Elfrid Payton is pretty bad player, fringe nba player actually. You defending him for 4 + years does not look good for you. Don't do it to yourself, it's worst than Biyombo fans who were celebrating "Congo twin towers" .
What does it has to do with Gordon? Read where Payton's name was mentioned, it wasn't even me who brought it up. But fendilim telling Magicstarswipe "I think part of this is because some posters feel offended when they are being presented facts and statistics contrary to their beliefs." . Witch could also be applyed to you and your over a top Payton love for years that never had any legs. Since i actually respect you as poster, your blind love for such a poor player was always odd, to say a least.
Firstly, I'm fairly certain that I've never called you a troll. I find it rather hypocritical though that you accuse others of bullying and the thread that you cited for evidence was Soul calling you out for insinuating that the OP of that thread was trolling.
The third post into the thread:
pepe1991 wrote:Is this trolling thread?
That thread, for what it's worth, was not the impetus for the whole Payton/Parker affair. You had been riding Payton that year, despite his efficiency, because you had already reached the conclusion that he was Orlando's problem. You honed in on his low 3PAr because you really couldn't attack his efficiency metrics at that time. You listed a bunch of elite PGs and Tony Parker was among them, even though he eliminated 3-point shots from his game rather early in his career. It was a minor misstep that undermined the logic of your critique of Payton and the thread you linked was borne out of it.
Yes. I believe Elfrid Payton is a very talented PG. I think it's rather dubious to label him a fringe NBA player considering that he has started about 85% of his games since entering the NBA (100% since leaving the Magic) and he is the front-runner to take the starting job for New York at this point. He has skills that our current roster is begging for. He can get into the paint at will and he can spread the ball around. It's unfortunate that Vucevic didn't learn to set a screen in the four years that Payton was on the roster, but the past is the past.
This doesn't really look like a fringe NBA player:
This doesn't mean that I don't have concerns regarding Payton's game. I do wonder how coachable he is and I wonder why he doesn't always play with the same fire that he does when someone challenges him. Asserting that our defense has been rectified simply by the departure of Payton is a fallacy though. Our 1/5 pick-and-roll defense was abysmal this year. That was the specific criticism of Payton. He is gone, but the problem remains. Vucevic is too slow to do anything but sag into the paint and Augustin is just a miserable defender in general.