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Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run

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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#41 » by EAS Law » Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:08 am

Xatticus wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Bensational wrote:I don't think it's a bad thing for him to be working on. We didn't have any strong post up options on the team, Vuc included (ranked in the 50th percentile - which is only because his FTrate is so low on those shots, it drags his PPP down), so we need someone who can get us buckets in that range once in a while just to be able to catch defenses off guard.

What I hope he means about getting better in the post is that he's talking about the high post and more mid-range jumpers around there and the elbow. That was what I felt he learned the most from playing against Kawhi in that series, was seeing just how he gets his shots and where he chooses to get them. AG was actually working to get some really nice, patient, deliberate shots from his post work in the high post, and he was hitting those pull ups at a high percentage in the playoffs. That's a playoff shot, so I don't mind if he, Vuc, Ross, Fournier, whoever all start to work on having a couple of shots they're good with in that range, because it showed we lacked that element last season.

But if it's his post-up game specifically that he's working on, still doesn't seem like a bad thing. I can't imagine he's neglecting the rest of his game just for that. Even if he do enough just to claw that shot back into respectability a bit more.


Nah, Vucevic shot an excellent .494 FG% from Post Ups and was ranked 7th in entire NBA for PPG in the post.

The main reason that Vucevic is ranked in the 50th percentile has to do with volume impacting rank. Daniel Theis is ranked in the top 99th percentile of NBA because he only posted up 13 times. Meanwhile Kawhi Leonard was in the 60th percentile...and the best post up big in the NBA, Joel Embiid, was only ranked in the 78th percentile.

You have to look at efficiency and volume to contextualize the rank...Joel Embiid shot .501 FG% (518 poss), Kawhi .481 FG% (134 poss), Vucevic .494 (434 poss) FG%...Aaron Gordon .420 FG% (173 poss). Its not even close...Aaron Gordon was not good in that play.

Toronto was ecstatic to give him room, especially in the mid range. They were ok with it as long as they could hedge/cheat off him in order to shut down any Vucevic - DJ/Fournier PnR action. Gordon converted them, making 6-11 mid rangers, but that's hardly an indicator...here is Aaron Gordon from mid-range in past 4 years:

23: 58-176 (.333 FG%)
22: 52-157 (.331 FG%)
21: 69-191 (.391 FG%)
20: 32-101 (.317 FG%)

It's not even remotely close to Kawhi's mid range shooting - not even when Kawhi was at similar age:

23: 131-296 (.443 FG%)
22: 79-174 (.454 FG%)
21: 56-116 (.483 FG%)
20: 27-73 (.370 FG%)

At a certain point its about the team winning games, as opposed to letting Gordon practice shots he hasn't been able to make. I would much rather he focus on maximizing the shots he can make. Let Ross and Fournier shoot those mid rangers when needed, they're much better at it than he is.


I just can't fathom how a player working on a deficiency can be construed as a negative.

50th percentile is 50th percentile. That's a measure of efficiency. I won't speak too much on it because I don't know precisely how their tracking data works. 7th in post PPG just means he is taking a lot of those shots. That's volume, not efficiency. Vucevic's shortcoming has always been his microscopic FTr. He is like a .280 hitter that doesn't draw walks. The batting average looks kind of pretty, but the actual efficiency leaves a lot to be desired.

I'm fairly certain that Gordon was referring to the low post. I think your offense has fundamental problems if you are relying heavily on feeding anyone in the post. The NBA has largely moved on from it in favor of pick-and-roll action. The pick-and-roll takes less time to initiate and it is tougher to defend. That said, you want players that can take advantage of whatever the defense gives you.

This was a simple comment from Gordon about trying to expand his skill set and it is being twisted into him trying to steal shots from other players. Even if this was the case, I couldn't get riled up about it because nobody on this team has a track record of excellence at the offensive end.

If there is a discussion about Vucevic, Gordon, Isaac, Bamba—anyone with even a glimmer of potential on this team, there is usually a vicious attempt to discredit anything that player does well and highlight everything that player does not do well.

AG also went into detail about working on his range and consistency from the arc, but nah—he’s working on a weak area in his game, so we should all probably go bananas and cite to stats that show that this is a weak area in his game—just as he stated.

Why would anyone want to play for fans like this?
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#42 » by EAS Law » Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:22 am

J the Drafter wrote:I’m surprised to hear people dogging Gordon’s post-up game. It looked effective to me. It only makes sense for him to seek improvement.

You’re really surprised?

I mean, we have all the stat gurus in here dogging him out for working on improving his game because he said he would work on his post moves like 2 summers ago. We are to believe that he will never improve, and that a guy that mainly plays PF now shouldn’t work on his post game.

Really, it’s just classic Magic fandom around here—the same kind that pissed Shaq off a while back. Not implying AG is Shaq in any way, but we have a nasty habit of making a case for any decent player that comes through Orlando to gtfo.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#43 » by NotACat » Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:23 am

tiderulz wrote:
NotACat wrote:
tiderulz wrote:you keep saying the high post, but then talk about post moves. completely different moves imo. I agree Kawhi kept them in games, but FVV was hitting the key shots in the 4th quarter, Kawhi was missing a lot (and yes, he did a majority of getting them to the 4th quarter, i dont lessen that).

I'm not talking about post moves at all, just being able to shoot from that area or make a play/draw a foul.

Comparing FVV playing off of a star and a different position to Kawhi isn't an equivalent comparison at all. Plus the best defenders in the league are forwards and centers. His entire post-season is an outlier.


this all started with talks about scoring in the post, and comments on Gordon working on post moves

NotACat wrote:If you watched the playoffs, you should know how critical it is to have a wing who can score in the post.

I'm not following. I didn't mention any post moves, just being able to score from there. I'm confident he can be reliable in that area based on his development over his career and his desire to build it over last season.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#44 » by ezzzp » Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:06 am

tiderulz wrote:
basketballRob wrote:AG was better than Tobias at 23 and he just got a max contract.

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thats debatable.


I think AG is better at 23 than Harris was at same age. AG is a better passer and way better defender than Harris is now. I have to look up the stats again but I don’t think there is a huge shooting difference between both at 23.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#45 » by fendilim » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:51 am

ezzzp wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
basketballRob wrote:AG was better than Tobias at 23 and he just got a max contract.

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thats debatable.


I think AG is better at 23 than Harris was at same age. AG is a better passer and way better defender than Harris is now. I have to look up the stats again but I don’t think there is a huge shooting difference between both at 23.

It really depends on which category you are referring to. Because Tobias, as a rookie (until now), was already a better shot creator than Gordon as a 23 years old.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#46 » by basketballRob » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:55 am

tiderulz wrote:
basketballRob wrote:
tiderulz wrote:thats debatable.
It is, but AG has a strong case. More pts, rebs, assists, and better 3 pt shooting.

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if you compare his half time in Orlando. His time in Detroit, he beat AG in pts, 3pt%, ft%, eFG%, ORTG, PER, TS.
You can't compare half a season to a whole season.

Gordon was also better at 23 in the playoffs than Harris. Harris played 4 games compared to AG's 5.

Gordon should easily be better than Harris at 24 too.

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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#47 » by fendilim » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:58 am

EAS Law wrote:
J the Drafter wrote:I’m surprised to hear people dogging Gordon’s post-up game. It looked effective to me. It only makes sense for him to seek improvement.

You’re really surprised?

I mean, we have all the stat gurus in here dogging him out for working on improving his game because he said he would work on his post moves like 2 summers ago. We are to believe that he will never improve, and that a guy that mainly plays PF now shouldn’t work on his post game.

Really, it’s just classic Magic fandom around here—the same kind that pissed Shaq off a while back. Not implying AG is Shaq in any way, but we have a nasty habit of making a case for any decent player that comes through Orlando to gtfo.


I think most of it stems from the lack of much improvement year-to-year despite working on some new skills.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#48 » by tiderulz » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:34 pm

basketballRob wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
basketballRob wrote:It is, but AG has a strong case. More pts, rebs, assists, and better 3 pt shooting.

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if you compare his half time in Orlando. His time in Detroit, he beat AG in pts, 3pt%, ft%, eFG%, ORTG, PER, TS.
You can't compare half a season to a whole season.

Gordon was also better at 23 in the playoffs than Harris. Harris played 4 games compared to AG's 5.

Gordon should easily be better than Harris at 24 too.

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understood. But AG was the #2 option at 23 for Orlando. Harris wasnt the #2 option with Orlando and his role was to defend, not score. His time with Detroit was more comparable in his role vs AG's role last year.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#49 » by PrimeThyme » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:20 pm

I just don’t think anybody gets nit picked more on this board than AG. I remember the last 2 years when he would say he’s been working on his perimeter game and people would rip him for it. Now he’s working closer to the basket like people wanted and he’s still getting dogged for it.

What do people want him to say? That he’s working on a new dunk? I for one am happy to hear once again that he’s working in the offseason on a weak spot in his game and trying to become a better all around player.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#50 » by Catledge » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:44 pm

I don't think we need to be looking for more opportunities to let AG catch 15 feet away with his back to the basket. I think he is not one of the few players in this league who is effective in that situation.

But I do think AG is effective at pinning opposing small forwards under the basket. We tried to give him touches in that situation early in games last year, and I think it's smart for him to work on being more effective with those deep catches (if that is in fact what he is doing).
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#51 » by ezzzp » Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:45 pm

PrimeThyme wrote:I just don’t think anybody gets nit picked more on this board than AG. I remember the last 2 years when he would say he’s been working on his perimeter game and people would rip him for it. Now he’s working closer to the basket like people wanted and he’s still getting dogged for it.

What do people want him to say? That he’s working on a new dunk? I for one am happy to hear once again that he’s working in the offseason on a weak spot in his game and trying to become a better all around player.


No way... Vucevic has been dissected incessantly for the past two years...there are exponentially more threads attacking any little mistake or over analyzing anything he says or gesture he makes. Same thing with Fournier. Post-trade thru season ending injury T Ross was also nit picked to death. Fultz, Isaac and Bamba get knitpicked by all of us everyday. Its a big part of what fan discussion is.

I would have felt a lot better if he didn't lead off his offseason strategy statement by re-emphasizing his wish to have a good post game. I would have preferred him leading off saying that he wants to work on his 3PT/FT shooting or his PnR actions and finding ways of attacking the rim. Its hard for me to be thrilled about an athletic phenom starting out with saying he's trying to find more ways to avoid contact and settle for mid rangers and fade aways.

If he was talking about deep post...then yes by all means that's good...but I don't think that's what he's talking about as he's been saying same thing for at least a couple of years now and on-court that's mostly meant an increase in mid-post volume.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#52 » by drsd » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:50 pm

Catledge wrote:I don't think we need to be looking for more opportunities to let AG catch 15 feet away with his back to the basket. I think he is not one of the few players in this league who is effective in that situation.

But I do think AG is effective at pinning opposing small forwards under the basket. We tried to give him touches in that situation early in games last year, and I think it's smart for him to work on being more effective with those deep catches (if that is in fact what he is doing).


Given that Gordon's assis numbers have been climbing his whole career, I guess the point of him posting up from the high post is so that he can back down the defender and pass out to an open 3-ball shooter.


..
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#53 » by MagicStarwipe » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:56 am

He said he wanted to be in the freaking 3 point contest one day! Stop whining.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#54 » by ezzzp » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:34 am

MagicStarwipe wrote:He said he wanted to be in the freaking 3 point contest one day! Stop whining.


So does Elfrid Payton :lol:
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#55 » by MagicStarwipe » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:49 am

In the same article he literally talks about working on his outside shot and wanting to be in the 3pt contest one day. He said he wants to work on his footwork in the post too. Footwork in general is probably the weakest part of his game so it's good he recognises that. I just don't get the constant whining and complaining about every little thing. Dissecting of every little thing being said and taking it out of context. Constantly having to "win arguments". That's why I barely post here anymore. Just not a fun place like it used to be.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#56 » by NotACat » Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:32 pm

MagicStarwipe wrote:In the same article he literally talks about working on his outside shot and wanting to be in the 3pt contest one day. He said he wants to work on his footwork in the post too. Footwork in general is probably the weakest part of his game so it's good he recognises that. I just don't get the constant whining and complaining about every little thing. Dissecting of every little thing being said and taking it out of context. Constantly having to "win arguments". That's why I barely post here anymore. Just not a fun place like it used to be.

People don't have faith in our young players at all. Its super frustrating.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#57 » by tiderulz » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:05 pm

NotACat wrote:
MagicStarwipe wrote:In the same article he literally talks about working on his outside shot and wanting to be in the 3pt contest one day. He said he wants to work on his footwork in the post too. Footwork in general is probably the weakest part of his game so it's good he recognises that. I just don't get the constant whining and complaining about every little thing. Dissecting of every little thing being said and taking it out of context. Constantly having to "win arguments". That's why I barely post here anymore. Just not a fun place like it used to be.

People don't have faith in our young players at all. Its super frustrating.

that, and people over-estimate what the young players will become
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#58 » by ezzzp » Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:30 pm

MagicStarwipe wrote:In the same article he literally talks about working on his outside shot and wanting to be in the 3pt contest one day. He said he wants to work on his footwork in the post too. Footwork in general is probably the weakest part of his game so it's good he recognises that. I just don't get the constant whining and complaining about every little thing. Dissecting of every little thing being said and taking it out of context. Constantly having to "win arguments". That's why I barely post here anymore. Just not a fun place like it used to be.


Analysis of player’s strengths and weaknesses is NOT whining and complaining...it’s basketball discussion on a basketball discussion forum.

Just because the analysis emphasis or results aren’t what you want, or about a player that you deem “ok” to scrutinize doesn’t mean it’s invalid...and it surely isn’t whining - it’s basketball discussion.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#59 » by ezzzp » Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:44 pm

NotACat wrote:
MagicStarwipe wrote:In the same article he literally talks about working on his outside shot and wanting to be in the 3pt contest one day. He said he wants to work on his footwork in the post too. Footwork in general is probably the weakest part of his game so it's good he recognises that. I just don't get the constant whining and complaining about every little thing. Dissecting of every little thing being said and taking it out of context. Constantly having to "win arguments". That's why I barely post here anymore. Just not a fun place like it used to be.

People don't have faith in our young players at all. Its super frustrating.


Analysis of our players does not mean not having faith. It’s about researching and understanding their strengths and weaknesses better. Informing ourselves above casual fan level. That’s what basketball discussion is.

It’s not always rainbows and unicorns, sometimes it’s realization and coming to terms with limitations and discussion about how those might be resolved.

The site is literally called RealGM - obviously referring to a level of analysis, scrutiny and strategizing that goes beyond fan cheering.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#60 » by NotACat » Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:45 pm

ezzzp wrote:
NotACat wrote:
MagicStarwipe wrote:In the same article he literally talks about working on his outside shot and wanting to be in the 3pt contest one day. He said he wants to work on his footwork in the post too. Footwork in general is probably the weakest part of his game so it's good he recognises that. I just don't get the constant whining and complaining about every little thing. Dissecting of every little thing being said and taking it out of context. Constantly having to "win arguments". That's why I barely post here anymore. Just not a fun place like it used to be.

People don't have faith in our young players at all. Its super frustrating.


Analysis of our players does not mean not having faith. It’s about researching and understanding their strengths and weaknesses better. Informing ourselves above casual fan level. That’s what basketball discussion is.

It’s not always rainbows and unicorns, sometimes it’s realization and coming to terms with limitations and discussion about how those might be resolved.

The site is literally called RealGM - obviously referring to a level of analysis, scrutiny and strategizing that goes beyond fan cheering.

It's not, and its not always pessimism. There isn't a single reason why anyone on our roster under the age of 25 can't continue to improve, ESPECIALLY in the case of AG. That man is dedicated towards becoming the best basketball player he can be and we've seen it over the last 5 seasons despite constant turnover and turmoil. The best is yet to come for him, and I don't think anyone in the NBA would dispute that. I'm not saying we should expect him to be 1st team all-nba caliber, but he still has all-star potential. We haven't seen any limitations for AG so far except the time he has to work with.

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