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Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run

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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#61 » by fateis007 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:05 pm

Stat nerds taking over realgm. :noway:

The guy said he was working on improving. Anyone that is using stats to break down why he should only be working on certain aspects of his game, because of historical analytics, really needs to just get a life.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#62 » by MagicStarwipe » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:14 am

ezzzp wrote:
MagicStarwipe wrote:In the same article he literally talks about working on his outside shot and wanting to be in the 3pt contest one day. He said he wants to work on his footwork in the post too. Footwork in general is probably the weakest part of his game so it's good he recognises that. I just don't get the constant whining and complaining about every little thing. Dissecting of every little thing being said and taking it out of context. Constantly having to "win arguments". That's why I barely post here anymore. Just not a fun place like it used to be.


Analysis of player’s strengths and weaknesses is NOT whining and complaining...it’s basketball discussion on a basketball discussion forum.

Just because the analysis emphasis or results aren’t what you want, or about a player that you deem “ok” to scrutinize doesn’t mean it’s invalid...and it surely isn’t whining - it’s basketball discussion.


BS... you are nitpicking and kicking up a stink over nothing. You said you would prefer that he first emphasised working on his outside shot even though he DID mention that and you didn't even see the interview. He said he was working on his footwork in the post which could easily mean he wants to get better at punishing teams who put a smaller guy on him and get off better looks rather than fadeaways. But you know what you're doing and I'm not going to argue with you because it's a pointless exercise and I'm not interested in talking in circles. So have fun.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#63 » by ezzzp » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:05 am

MagicStarwipe wrote:
BS... you are nitpicking and kicking up a stink over nothing. You said you would prefer that he first emphasised working on his outside shot even though he DID mention that and you didn't even see the interview. He said he was working on his footwork in the post which could easily mean he wants to get better at punishing teams who put a smaller guy on him and get off better looks rather than fadeaways. But you know what you're doing and I'm not going to argue with you because it's a pointless exercise and I'm not interested in talking in circles. So have fun.


Bull its because it’s about a player you don’t want anyone to analyze...same way you would get mad at anyone that analyzed Elfrid Payton.

This is a place to analyze in detail ALL aspects of the game that are related to the Magic...not just the players you deem ok.

It’s also not a stink about nothing...AG’s post game and mid range are an inefficiency in the Magic offense - discussion about wether it should or shouldn’t continue to be a major part of his offense is absolutely valid.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#64 » by EAS Law » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:22 am

fendilim wrote:
EAS Law wrote:
J the Drafter wrote:I’m surprised to hear people dogging Gordon’s post-up game. It looked effective to me. It only makes sense for him to seek improvement.

You’re really surprised?

I mean, we have all the stat gurus in here dogging him out for working on improving his game because he said he would work on his post moves like 2 summers ago. We are to believe that he will never improve, and that a guy that mainly plays PF now shouldn’t work on his post game.

Really, it’s just classic Magic fandom around here—the same kind that pissed Shaq off a while back. Not implying AG is Shaq in any way, but we have a nasty habit of making a case for any decent player that comes through Orlando to gtfo.


I think most of it stems from the lack of much improvement year-to-year despite working on some new skills.

I think that the sole reason there is such vehement disagreement about all of this stuff is that guys here and elsewhere get so caught up on advanced statistical numbers, usually without looking at proper context at all or accounting for the right outliers. To say that Gordon hasn’t improved is really just unfair. Vogel used him differently than Skiles used him and Cliff has used nearly everyone differently as well. These types of real world factors affect the statistical numbers people use to worship or condemn players all the time.

AG is poised to become a leader on the team and he should be guided and groomed accordingly—not treated like trade bait because he isn’t playing like some transcendent talent.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#65 » by ezzzp » Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:07 am

fateis007 wrote:Stat nerds taking over realgm. :noway:

The guy said he was working on improving. Anyone that is using stats to break down why he should only be working on certain aspects of his game, because of historical analytics, really needs to just get a life.


Actually analytics took over sports years ago. It is now one of (if not) the most important tools utilized by NBA front offices, players, agents, trainers etc...especially to gauge and understand player development and system efficiency. The reason is obvious, it works. Those that use it to their advantage the best often win and get paid.

Anyone not using stats to break down why Aaron Gordon should or shouldn't be working on certain aspects of his game is missing a vast majority of the information available to objectively understand what is actually occurring - and thus very limited in their ability to make a proper assessment.

Utilizing analytics to understand the game, doesn't negate watching or playing the game - it enhances it...its not one or the other. Some just have the capacity to easily handle all of them.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#66 » by fendilim » Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:21 am

EAS Law wrote:
fendilim wrote:
EAS Law wrote:You’re really surprised?

I mean, we have all the stat gurus in here dogging him out for working on improving his game because he said he would work on his post moves like 2 summers ago. We are to believe that he will never improve, and that a guy that mainly plays PF now shouldn’t work on his post game.

Really, it’s just classic Magic fandom around here—the same kind that pissed Shaq off a while back. Not implying AG is Shaq in any way, but we have a nasty habit of making a case for any decent player that comes through Orlando to gtfo.


I think most of it stems from the lack of much improvement year-to-year despite working on some new skills.

I think that the sole reason there is such vehement disagreement about all of this stuff is that guys here and elsewhere get so caught up on advanced statistical numbers, usually without looking at proper context at all or accounting for the right outliers. To say that Gordon hasn’t improved is really just unfair. Vogel used him differently than Skiles used him and Cliff has used nearly everyone differently as well. These types of real world factors affect the statistical numbers people use to worship or condemn players all the time.

AG is poised to become a leader on the team and he should be guided and groomed accordingly—not treated like trade bait because he isn’t playing like some transcendent talent.

no one is denying that gordon has improved, because he has. but the level of improvement has been slow especially if you expect him to be a star.

like most stars in the league, most of these guys grow into their roles, unless you have a clear cut talent like lebron or durant. someone like paul george had granger when he was starting. kawhi had manu, tp and duncan. (guys that some people compares him to). these guys showed what they can do in their first four years in the league thats why the team was handed to them. we have not seen that consistently from gordon. but thats ok, Vogel giftwrapped him the ball and gave him a paul george-esque role for two years and there wasnt even any improvement in the 2nd year. when we traded serge midseason, gordon moved back to the 4 and wasnt tasked to handle the ball and his efficiency went up. only to see him go back to a ball handler in the 2nd year, as he was back to being inefficient.

clifford utilized gordon really well this year and im hoping gordon buys into this role next year as well. gordon doesnt need the ball to be an effective player. he is more of a 3 and d guy.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#67 » by fendilim » Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:34 am

NotACat wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
NotACat wrote:People don't have faith in our young players at all. Its super frustrating.


Analysis of our players does not mean not having faith. It’s about researching and understanding their strengths and weaknesses better. Informing ourselves above casual fan level. That’s what basketball discussion is.

It’s not always rainbows and unicorns, sometimes it’s realization and coming to terms with limitations and discussion about how those might be resolved.

The site is literally called RealGM - obviously referring to a level of analysis, scrutiny and strategizing that goes beyond fan cheering.

It's not, and its not always pessimism. There isn't a single reason why anyone on our roster under the age of 25 can't continue to improve, ESPECIALLY in the case of AG. That man is dedicated towards becoming the best basketball player he can be and we've seen it over the last 5 seasons despite constant turnover and turmoil. The best is yet to come for him, and I don't think anyone in the NBA would dispute that. I'm not saying we should expect him to be 1st team all-nba caliber, but he still has all-star potential. We haven't seen any limitations for AG so far except the time he has to work with.
Especially? WHY? Because of work ethic? NO ONE is questioning AG`s work ethics.

NO ONE.


its the lack of being able to execute things hes been working on during the summer that is what people are questioning. sure he has been a better shooter, but what else? For someone who`s been training to be a scorer since day 1, his progress has been really slow or stagnant. I`ve never seen a star player that has shown this kind of progress. Usually, they already come with the base skills of a scorer and just keep on improving. AG doesnt even have the base skill as a rookie, and still almost the same after 5 year, compared to guys he has been compared to (from rookie to their 5th year or at the same age), those guys, or the franchise cornerstones/stars in the league already have the base skills of a scorer or are respectable scorers at the age of 23.

Sometimes, you can train so much and it still doesnt affect the way you play the game.

Example:
https://sports.yahoo.com/dwight-howard-actually-makes-80-percent-free-throws-002057899--nba.html?y20=1

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Or Gilbert Arenas almost not missing in three point shots attempted but still a bad shooter during games
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#68 » by fendilim » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:34 am

ezzzp wrote:
MagicStarwipe wrote:
BS... you are nitpicking and kicking up a stink over nothing. You said you would prefer that he first emphasised working on his outside shot even though he DID mention that and you didn't even see the interview. He said he was working on his footwork in the post which could easily mean he wants to get better at punishing teams who put a smaller guy on him and get off better looks rather than fadeaways. But you know what you're doing and I'm not going to argue with you because it's a pointless exercise and I'm not interested in talking in circles. So have fun.


Bull its because it’s about a player you don’t want anyone to analyze...same way you would get mad at anyone that analyzed Elfrid Payton.

This is a place to analyze in detail ALL aspects of the game that are related to the Magic...not just the players you deem ok.

It’s also not a stink about nothing...AG’s post game and mid range are an inefficiency in the Magic offense - discussion about wether it should or shouldn’t continue to be a major part of his offense is absolutely valid.

I think part of this is because some posters feel offended when they are being presented facts and statistics contrary to their beliefs.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#69 » by MagicStarwipe » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:55 am

fendilim wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
MagicStarwipe wrote:
BS... you are nitpicking and kicking up a stink over nothing. You said you would prefer that he first emphasised working on his outside shot even though he DID mention that and you didn't even see the interview. He said he was working on his footwork in the post which could easily mean he wants to get better at punishing teams who put a smaller guy on him and get off better looks rather than fadeaways. But you know what you're doing and I'm not going to argue with you because it's a pointless exercise and I'm not interested in talking in circles. So have fun.


Bull its because it’s about a player you don’t want anyone to analyze...same way you would get mad at anyone that analyzed Elfrid Payton.

This is a place to analyze in detail ALL aspects of the game that are related to the Magic...not just the players you deem ok.

It’s also not a stink about nothing...AG’s post game and mid range are an inefficiency in the Magic offense - discussion about wether it should or shouldn’t continue to be a major part of his offense is absolutely valid.

I think part of this is because some posters feel offended when they are being presented facts and statistics contrary to their beliefs.


The more annoying thing is people thinking they can tell you what your beliefs are.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#70 » by basketballRob » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:57 am

fendilim wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
MagicStarwipe wrote:
BS... you are nitpicking and kicking up a stink over nothing. You said you would prefer that he first emphasised working on his outside shot even though he DID mention that and you didn't even see the interview. He said he was working on his footwork in the post which could easily mean he wants to get better at punishing teams who put a smaller guy on him and get off better looks rather than fadeaways. But you know what you're doing and I'm not going to argue with you because it's a pointless exercise and I'm not interested in talking in circles. So have fun.


Bull its because it’s about a player you don’t want anyone to analyze...same way you would get mad at anyone that analyzed Elfrid Payton.

This is a place to analyze in detail ALL aspects of the game that are related to the Magic...not just the players you deem ok.

It’s also not a stink about nothing...AG’s post game and mid range are an inefficiency in the Magic offense - discussion about wether it should or shouldn’t continue to be a major part of his offense is absolutely valid.

I think part of this is because some posters feel offended when they are being presented facts and statistics contrary to their beliefs.
You have to include yourself in that claim.

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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#71 » by fklt » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:58 am

he is still young enough to work on whatever he wants. and considering all of those low percentage fadeaways are result of his lack of good footwork around the rim, i say good job on choosing his priorities.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#72 » by basketballRob » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:22 am

fklt wrote:he is still young enough to work on whatever he wants. and considering all of those low percentage fadeaways are result of his lack of good footwork around the rim, i say good job on choosing his priorities.
I remember Kobe Bryant working on his footwork in his 30's. He had Hakeem helping him.

Late last season AG had a bad stretch and couldn't get anything from the outside to drop. Lisa Leslie gave him advice to start using his muscle to get to the rim. It worked, he started forcing his way to the basket. Maybe he'll learn that he doesn't need the fadeaway when he can just back them down and lay the ball up.

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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#73 » by pepe1991 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:29 am

MagicStarwipe wrote:
fendilim wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Bull its because it’s about a player you don’t want anyone to analyze...same way you would get mad at anyone that analyzed Elfrid Payton.

This is a place to analyze in detail ALL aspects of the game that are related to the Magic...not just the players you deem ok.

It’s also not a stink about nothing...AG’s post game and mid range are an inefficiency in the Magic offense - discussion about wether it should or shouldn’t continue to be a major part of his offense is absolutely valid.

I think part of this is because some posters feel offended when they are being presented facts and statistics contrary to their beliefs.


The more annoying thing is people thinking they can tell you what your beliefs are.


But Payton fans being wrong all along is something factual.
He indeed hurt Magic defense and did not help offense.
He indeed never improved as shooter.
His efficiency ( eFG%) stayed pathetic after 5 years.
He is career liability on offense and defense.

At age of 25 only contract he could get was 1 year guaranteed money ( with second year only $1m guaranteed) from team projected to have the worst record in nba.
Pelicans are third team in 3 years that wanted no part of him going forward.

So maybe "negative Nancy " type posters were actually objective and on point all along, and his fanboys were simply wrong?
As i said, it's not even debatable, posters here who had " Payton is championship point guard" threads and who claimed he is better than Tony Parker at 22 were simply - flat out wrong.

Unlike case with Elfrid Payton, virtually nobody ever claimed that Gordon sucks. But that he will, or will not be star player.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#74 » by MagicStarwipe » Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:49 am

pepe1991 wrote:
MagicStarwipe wrote:
fendilim wrote:I think part of this is because some posters feel offended when they are being presented facts and statistics contrary to their beliefs.


The more annoying thing is people thinking they can tell you what your beliefs are.


But Payton fans being wrong all along is something factual.
He indeed hurt Magic defense and did not help offense.
He indeed never improved as shooter.
His efficiency ( eFG%) stayed pathetic after 5 years.
He is career liability on offense and defense.

At age of 25 only contract he could get was 1 year guaranteed money ( with second year only $1m guaranteed) from team projected to have the worst record in nba.
Pelicans are third team in 3 years that wanted no part of him going forward.

So maybe "negative Nancy " type posters were actually objective and on point all along, and his fanboys were simply wrong?
As i said, it's not even debatable, posters here who had " Payton is championship point guard" threads and who claimed he is better than Tony Parker at 22 were simply - flat out wrong.

Unlike case with Elfrid Payton, virtually nobody ever claimed that Gordon sucks. But that he will, or will not be star player.


Dude... what the hell does that have to do with anything in this thread?
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#75 » by NotACat » Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:25 pm

fendilim wrote:
NotACat wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Analysis of our players does not mean not having faith. It’s about researching and understanding their strengths and weaknesses better. Informing ourselves above casual fan level. That’s what basketball discussion is.

It’s not always rainbows and unicorns, sometimes it’s realization and coming to terms with limitations and discussion about how those might be resolved.

The site is literally called RealGM - obviously referring to a level of analysis, scrutiny and strategizing that goes beyond fan cheering.

It's not, and its not always pessimism. There isn't a single reason why anyone on our roster under the age of 25 can't continue to improve, ESPECIALLY in the case of AG. That man is dedicated towards becoming the best basketball player he can be and we've seen it over the last 5 seasons despite constant turnover and turmoil. The best is yet to come for him, and I don't think anyone in the NBA would dispute that. I'm not saying we should expect him to be 1st team all-nba caliber, but he still has all-star potential. We haven't seen any limitations for AG so far except the time he has to work with.
Especially? WHY? Because of work ethic? NO ONE is questioning AG`s work ethics.

NO ONE.


its the lack of being able to execute things hes been working on during the summer that is what people are questioning. sure he has been a better shooter, but what else? For someone who`s been training to be a scorer since day 1, his progress has been really slow or stagnant. I`ve never seen a star player that has shown this kind of progress. Usually, they already come with the base skills of a scorer and just keep on improving. AG doesnt even have the base skill as a rookie, and still almost the same after 5 year, compared to guys he has been compared to (from rookie to their 5th year or at the same age), those guys, or the franchise cornerstones/stars in the league already have the base skills of a scorer or are respectable scorers at the age of 23.

Sometimes, you can train so much and it still doesnt affect the way you play the game.

Example:
https://sports.yahoo.com/dwight-howard-actually-makes-80-percent-free-throws-002057899--nba.html?y20=1

Image

Or Gilbert Arenas almost not missing in three point shots attempted but still a bad shooter during games

He's become a better shooter, better ball handler, better passer, better decision maker, better at repositioning off the ball, and a better defender.

I don't know what areas of his game he hasn't gotten better at tbh. Maybe dunking?
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#76 » by fendilim » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:37 pm

basketballRob wrote:
fendilim wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Bull its because it’s about a player you don’t want anyone to analyze...same way you would get mad at anyone that analyzed Elfrid Payton.

This is a place to analyze in detail ALL aspects of the game that are related to the Magic...not just the players you deem ok.

It’s also not a stink about nothing...AG’s post game and mid range are an inefficiency in the Magic offense - discussion about wether it should or shouldn’t continue to be a major part of his offense is absolutely valid.

I think part of this is because some posters feel offended when they are being presented facts and statistics contrary to their beliefs.
You have to include yourself in that claim.

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where are the numbers? the facts?
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#77 » by fendilim » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:40 pm

MagicStarwipe wrote:
fendilim wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Bull its because it’s about a player you don’t want anyone to analyze...same way you would get mad at anyone that analyzed Elfrid Payton.

This is a place to analyze in detail ALL aspects of the game that are related to the Magic...not just the players you deem ok.

It’s also not a stink about nothing...AG’s post game and mid range are an inefficiency in the Magic offense - discussion about wether it should or shouldn’t continue to be a major part of his offense is absolutely valid.

I think part of this is because some posters feel offended when they are being presented facts and statistics contrary to their beliefs.


The more annoying thing is people thinking they can tell you what your beliefs are.

Funny you say this because this is a discussion forum.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#78 » by fendilim » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:42 pm

NotACat wrote:
fendilim wrote:
NotACat wrote:It's not, and its not always pessimism. There isn't a single reason why anyone on our roster under the age of 25 can't continue to improve, ESPECIALLY in the case of AG. That man is dedicated towards becoming the best basketball player he can be and we've seen it over the last 5 seasons despite constant turnover and turmoil. The best is yet to come for him, and I don't think anyone in the NBA would dispute that. I'm not saying we should expect him to be 1st team all-nba caliber, but he still has all-star potential. We haven't seen any limitations for AG so far except the time he has to work with.
Especially? WHY? Because of work ethic? NO ONE is questioning AG`s work ethics.

NO ONE.


its the lack of being able to execute things hes been working on during the summer that is what people are questioning. sure he has been a better shooter, but what else? For someone who`s been training to be a scorer since day 1, his progress has been really slow or stagnant. I`ve never seen a star player that has shown this kind of progress. Usually, they already come with the base skills of a scorer and just keep on improving. AG doesnt even have the base skill as a rookie, and still almost the same after 5 year, compared to guys he has been compared to (from rookie to their 5th year or at the same age), those guys, or the franchise cornerstones/stars in the league already have the base skills of a scorer or are respectable scorers at the age of 23.

Sometimes, you can train so much and it still doesnt affect the way you play the game.

Example:
https://sports.yahoo.com/dwight-howard-actually-makes-80-percent-free-throws-002057899--nba.html?y20=1

Image

Or Gilbert Arenas almost not missing in three point shots attempted but still a bad shooter during games

He's become a better shooter, better ball handler, better passer, better decision maker, better at repositioning off the ball, and a better defender.

I don't know what areas of his game he hasn't gotten better at tbh. Maybe dunking?
Scoring. He's still the same inefficient scorer that people want to be the star of this team.
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#79 » by MagicStarwipe » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:42 pm

fendilim wrote:
MagicStarwipe wrote:
fendilim wrote:I think part of this is because some posters feel offended when they are being presented facts and statistics contrary to their beliefs.


The more annoying thing is people thinking they can tell you what your beliefs are.

Funny you say this because this is a discussion forum.


A discussion forum means you can tell me what my beliefs are?
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Re: Interview: Aaron Gordon keeps grinding, looks to build on Magic’s run 

Post#80 » by fendilim » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:24 pm

MagicStarwipe wrote:
fendilim wrote:
MagicStarwipe wrote:
The more annoying thing is people thinking they can tell you what your beliefs are.

Funny you say this because this is a discussion forum.


A discussion forum means you can tell me what my beliefs are?
Its discussing your beliefs.
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