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Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!!

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1001 » by j-ragg » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:12 pm

Hield is probably the 3rd best shooter in the league. i'd def trade anyone for him.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1002 » by pepe1991 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:27 pm

Knightro wrote:I would give up anyone on the roster not named Jonathan Isaac for Hield. Like without question.


Do you belive that Isaac has more potential than Gordon? I honestlly don't.
I think Isaac will cap out as career 11-13 ppg scorer who happends to be great defender.
I'm yet to see any evidence that he is average, let alone good offensive player. I can't see team where he would be their top 4 offensive option.

Gordon actually is more advanced offensive player by a mile, and they are only 2 years difference. Issue with Gordon is that he wants to be more than role player, probably because he sometimes actually can give you legit amazing perforamance ( 41 points vs Nets at age of 22 ). Isaac is just flat in that department. Not only that he never showed mentality of scorer, he doesn't seem to be much interested in trying to score in general. College +3 nba seasons he never put more than 12ppg.

His movment without ball is non existent, he isn't some great screener, he is flat out bad ball handler and streaky- bad spot up shooter. In preseason , you would expect improvments at least in shooting . One of his 3s from corner hit a glass, he had 2 ugly airballs. He still couldn't shoot or score, and when Magic had no other options like vs Celtics, he was nowhere to be found.
Almost all his offense comes from offensive rebounds and wide open spot ups that are created by others.

if he has more developed body he could be starting C , but he is paper thin after 3 years so i think that's a streach.
2 years ago i compared him to young Ibaka, and that's how i see his career tragjectory. He will have blocks, steals, ok rebounding, just don't expect too much on offense.

i think Isaac, just like Gordon gets overhyped because fans know other twos , in Isaac's case Fultz and Bamba and in Gordon's case Hezonja and Payton - are simply worst. But that doesn't make them elite.

There is no doubt that he can be monster on defense. But in order to ulitize that type of player in best fashion, you need shooters ,ballhandlers and scorers to compensate his deficiency on offense. Magic compensate bad offensive talent of his, with even worst offensive talent of Bamba. ( mine biggest issue with drafting process from WeHam)
Biggest knock on Gordon is that he is not star. But that's not fair. It's not his fault that team never could find star level guard or superstar in general.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1003 » by j-ragg » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:36 pm

I do hope Isaac's offense can start progressing some. His defense is arguably the best individual asset of anyone on the team (maybe w/ DJ's shooting), but his offense hasn't progressed yet outside of corner 3s. While Orlando does him zero favors to help him offensively as well by playing him in the lineups they do.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1004 » by pepe1991 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:56 pm

I just want to add that Isaac as asset has more value than Gordon from salary perspective and maybe that's the most important part.
Most players after second contract are gone, Isaac still is on rookie contract and won't become expensive soon.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1005 » by Knightro » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:57 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Knightro wrote:I would give up anyone on the roster not named Jonathan Isaac for Hield. Like without question.


Do you belive that Isaac has more potential than Gordon? I honestlly don't.


I do think Isaac has more potential than Gordon, yes.

Isaac is already a significantly better defender than Gordon is IMO.

Offensively Isaac's not as good as AG is right now, but I definitely don't think it's out of the question that Isaac before the end of his rookie contract is able to become a break even player offensively which is all Gordon is now really.

Right now Isaac is roughly a -2.0 OBPM guy and a +2.0 DBPM guy for a break even player overall. But with Isaac only heading into year 3 and continuing to develop physically, I expect him to improve on both of those numbers.

Gordon's roughly a 0.0 OBPM guy and +1.0 DBPM guy and has been for like 4 straight years now. I just don’t think he has much more developing to do. He’s a break even offensive player and a solid-good defensive player.

Isaac doesn’t have THAT far to go offensively to be the much more impactful all-around player.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1006 » by GelbeWand09 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:01 pm

Yea Isaac as a rookie was already the best defender on the team. That is super rare. He is maybe the most mobile 7fter (in shoes) in the whole leaque on the defensive side. Gordon will never be elite on any side of the court.

The reason i dont trade Isaac for Hield is, you wont accomplish anything. Watch last years PO's. They where won with defense. Philly & Milwaukee are too good defensively. We are a better offense team with Hield for Isaac for sure, but a much worse defensive team too. Hield is one dimensional. In the PO's they put Simmons on him & he's gonna score 14 ppg on bad shooting. To make noise, we have to be top 10 on offense & defense. Thats the reason Gordon makes sense. We can replace his defense easy & upgrade our offense.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1007 » by MagicMatic » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:37 pm

Knightro wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Knightro wrote:I would give up anyone on the roster not named Jonathan Isaac for Hield. Like without question.


Do you belive that Isaac has more potential than Gordon? I honestlly don't.


I do think Isaac has more potential than Gordon, yes.

Isaac is already a significantly better defender than Gordon is IMO.

Offensively Isaac's not as good as AG is right now, but I definitely don't think it's out of the question that Isaac before the end of his rookie contract is able to become a break even player offensively which is all Gordon is now really.

Right now Isaac is roughly a -2.0 OBPM guy and a +2.0 DBPM guy for a break even player overall. But with Isaac only heading into year 3 and continuing to develop physically, I expect him to improve on both of those numbers.

Gordon's roughly a 0.0 OBPM guy and +1.0 DBPM guy and has been for like 4 straight years now. I just don’t think he has much more developing to do. He’s a break even offensive player and a solid-good defensive player.

Isaac doesn’t have THAT far to go offensively to be the much more impactful all-around player.


The issue, with where this roster sits currently, is the lack of reliable offensive production in the starting lineup. It isn’t dynamic enough to be labeled effective.

Neither AG of JI have proven up to this point that they are capable of creating offense individually. I’d probably make the bet that JI will eventually be able to, possibly this season.

For as much hate as Fournier gets, he’s really the only primary distributor in the starting lineup. He had his worst shooting season in his career last year, and that killed the offense. Last season Ross came off the bench to replace AG or Isaac depending on the situation. This season it might be different with the acquisitions of Fultz and Aminu. However, that doesn’t really address the fact that the offense is insanely stagnant with the starting lineup.

Moving AG for a legitimate option on offense would make sense. This considering the FO decided to double down on a system that basically requires players having to generate offense in a half court set a majority of the time. Which is exactly what AG struggles to do.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1008 » by j-ragg » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:51 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
Knightro wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Do you belive that Isaac has more potential than Gordon? I honestlly don't.


I do think Isaac has more potential than Gordon, yes.

Isaac is already a significantly better defender than Gordon is IMO.

Offensively Isaac's not as good as AG is right now, but I definitely don't think it's out of the question that Isaac before the end of his rookie contract is able to become a break even player offensively which is all Gordon is now really.

Right now Isaac is roughly a -2.0 OBPM guy and a +2.0 DBPM guy for a break even player overall. But with Isaac only heading into year 3 and continuing to develop physically, I expect him to improve on both of those numbers.

Gordon's roughly a 0.0 OBPM guy and +1.0 DBPM guy and has been for like 4 straight years now. I just don’t think he has much more developing to do. He’s a break even offensive player and a solid-good defensive player.

Isaac doesn’t have THAT far to go offensively to be the much more impactful all-around player.

Neither AG of JI have proven up to this point that they are capable of creating offense individually. I’d probably make the bet that JI will eventually be able to, possibly this season.

Really? I feel like we haven't really seen many glimpses of it. I'd love for it to be true but it seems like JI is just more content to be a shooter/garbage man on offense. I feel like I'll get vilified for saying that but he almost takes 50% of his shots from 3. Gordon has been plenty inconsistent in his 5 years and I know how you feel about him, but we at least have seen games/stretches where he could take over offensively (summer league AG when he was dominant, 40+ point games). Isaac just doesn't seem like that type of player to me. But like I said I hope I'm wrong. I think eventually the only way for Isaac to create offense reliably will be from the center spot but I don't have a ton of basis for that outside of it's just my feeling.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1009 » by pepe1991 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:03 pm

Isaac is simply poor player when he picks up a dribble

174-403 with 0 dribbles (43%)
41-96 with 1 dribble (42,7)
25-61 with 2 dribbles ( 41% )

And he simply stays in that range.. During whole season he only attemped 39 shots with 3 or more dribbles.
Gordon? Gordon attemped 278 shots with 3+ dribbles.

Gordon 2 years ago, when he was Isaac's age, attemped 198 shots with 3 + dribbles.

That's my objective fear with Isaac. He almost never tries anything ,yet his efficiency is pretty meh for player that only plays safe and stays in his line.

Now , i'm not saying that offensive player has to dribble liviing life out of the ball but every single great offensive wing has to be able to keep dribble alive to score. You have kid like Doncic who took 700 shots with at least 3 dribbles, because his team was trash and he didn't have much solutions. Despite incredible amount of it, kid shot 45% from it. Crazy talent.

Almost every single great scorer is in that upper 300 attemps in shots with dribble alive for longer period
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1010 » by MagicMatic » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:23 pm

j-ragg wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Knightro wrote:
I do think Isaac has more potential than Gordon, yes.

Isaac is already a significantly better defender than Gordon is IMO.

Offensively Isaac's not as good as AG is right now, but I definitely don't think it's out of the question that Isaac before the end of his rookie contract is able to become a break even player offensively which is all Gordon is now really.

Right now Isaac is roughly a -2.0 OBPM guy and a +2.0 DBPM guy for a break even player overall. But with Isaac only heading into year 3 and continuing to develop physically, I expect him to improve on both of those numbers.

Gordon's roughly a 0.0 OBPM guy and +1.0 DBPM guy and has been for like 4 straight years now. I just don’t think he has much more developing to do. He’s a break even offensive player and a solid-good defensive player.

Isaac doesn’t have THAT far to go offensively to be the much more impactful all-around player.

Neither AG of JI have proven up to this point that they are capable of creating offense individually. I’d probably make the bet that JI will eventually be able to, possibly this season.

Really? I feel like we haven't really seen many glimpses of it. I'd love for it to be true but it seems like JI is just more content to be a shooter/garbage man on offense. I feel like I'll get vilified for saying that but he almost takes 50% of his shots from 3. Gordon has been plenty inconsistent in his 5 years and I know how you feel about him, but we at least have seen games/stretches where he could take over offensively (summer league AG when he was dominant, 40+ point games). Isaac just doesn't seem like that type of player to me. But like I said I hope I'm wrong. I think eventually the only way for Isaac to create offense reliably will be from the center spot but I don't have a ton of basis for that outside of it's just my feeling.


I totally get the argument that Isaac hasn’t shown what he needs to be 100% confident he’s the answer. I’d say that his best case scenario ceiling with Orlando is exponentially higher than AG’s.

I’ve said it before on this forum - AG could be a killer if he was in a system that highlighted his athleticism in the open court. That opportunity simply hasn’t/doesn’t exist with the makeup of the roster. That’s not necessarily on AG. They’ve just been asking him to do things he isn’t that great at. He gets it going for stretches against certain teams and then falls back into struggling when he tries to do too much.

At least with Isaac the worst case scenario for him is a solid 3&D PF that can guard almost anyone on the floor. AG is a complimentary player in the wrong system surrounded by his worst case scenario already IMO. It’s going to suck when he’s traded because he’s going to provide way more to teams that aren’t running an archaic offense from the 90’s built around a Center.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1011 » by PrimeThyme » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:46 pm

I go back and forth on what Isaac's ceiling is offensively. About once a game Isaac will break out a Euro step off the dribble or a nifty finish around the rim and remind you that he has that ability, but he has yet to show it consistently. I think he's a more natural finisher around the rim then AG is, a more natural shooter, and has a higher offensive IQ as well, so while I do think he will end up as a better offensive player, I'm just not sure how much better he will be.

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed with what I saw from him on offense in the preseason. I was hoping to have seen him expand his game just a little bit off the dribble. Or at the very least to look a bit better shooting the 3 but I didn't see either. I think he still just struggles with confidence. His frustration when he's struggling on offense to shoot is visible, and you can see him start to rush his shot and not set his feet.

I'm hoping that he shows more in the regular season then he did in the preseason. If he doesn't make any tangible steps forward on offense this season I'll probably have to adjust my expectations for what his ceiling on offense really is.

Defensively, it's not even close. Isaac has Dpoy ability, and some of the best defensive instincts I have seen. You just can't teach what he's able to do on that side of the ball. Thats what makes his ceiling higher then AG's and why I would choose Isaac over AG every time.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1012 » by Def Swami » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:51 pm

Gonna place some faith in Cliff's confidence.

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1013 » by tiderulz » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:04 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Knightro wrote:I would give up anyone on the roster not named Jonathan Isaac for Hield. Like without question.


Do you belive that Isaac has more potential than Gordon? I honestlly don't.
I think Isaac will cap out as career 11-13 ppg scorer who happends to be great defender.
I'm yet to see any evidence that he is average, let alone good offensive player. I can't see team where he would be their top 4 offensive option.

Gordon actually is more advanced offensive player by a mile, and they are only 2 years difference. Issue with Gordon is that he wants to be more than role player, probably because he sometimes actually can give you legit amazing perforamance ( 41 points vs Nets at age of 22 ). Isaac is just flat in that department. Not only that he never showed mentality of scorer, he doesn't seem to be much interested in trying to score in general. College +3 nba seasons he never put more than 12ppg.

His movment without ball is non existent, he isn't some great screener, he is flat out bad ball handler and streaky- bad spot up shooter. In preseason , you would expect improvments at least in shooting . One of his 3s from corner hit a glass, he had 2 ugly airballs. He still couldn't shoot or score, and when Magic had no other options like vs Celtics, he was nowhere to be found.
Almost all his offense comes from offensive rebounds and wide open spot ups that are created by others.

if he has more developed body he could be starting C , but he is paper thin after 3 years so i think that's a streach.
2 years ago i compared him to young Ibaka, and that's how i see his career tragjectory. He will have blocks, steals, ok rebounding, just don't expect too much on offense.

i think Isaac, just like Gordon gets overhyped because fans know other twos , in Isaac's case Fultz and Bamba and in Gordon's case Hezonja and Payton - are simply worst. But that doesn't make them elite.

There is no doubt that he can be monster on defense. But in order to ulitize that type of player in best fashion, you need shooters ,ballhandlers and scorers to compensate his deficiency on offense. Magic compensate bad offensive talent of his, with even worst offensive talent of Bamba. ( mine biggest issue with drafting process from WeHam)
Biggest knock on Gordon is that he is not star. But that's not fair. It's not his fault that team never could find star level guard or superstar in general.

i agree, but is Gordon a difference maker on offense? Isaac can be a difference maker on defense. There is the rub. And you know me, ive never been a huge cheerleader of either one.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1014 » by pepe1991 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:21 pm

tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Knightro wrote:I would give up anyone on the roster not named Jonathan Isaac for Hield. Like without question.


Do you belive that Isaac has more potential than Gordon? I honestlly don't.
I think Isaac will cap out as career 11-13 ppg scorer who happends to be great defender.
I'm yet to see any evidence that he is average, let alone good offensive player. I can't see team where he would be their top 4 offensive option.

Gordon actually is more advanced offensive player by a mile, and they are only 2 years difference. Issue with Gordon is that he wants to be more than role player, probably because he sometimes actually can give you legit amazing perforamance ( 41 points vs Nets at age of 22 ). Isaac is just flat in that department. Not only that he never showed mentality of scorer, he doesn't seem to be much interested in trying to score in general. College +3 nba seasons he never put more than 12ppg.

His movment without ball is non existent, he isn't some great screener, he is flat out bad ball handler and streaky- bad spot up shooter. In preseason , you would expect improvments at least in shooting . One of his 3s from corner hit a glass, he had 2 ugly airballs. He still couldn't shoot or score, and when Magic had no other options like vs Celtics, he was nowhere to be found.
Almost all his offense comes from offensive rebounds and wide open spot ups that are created by others.

if he has more developed body he could be starting C , but he is paper thin after 3 years so i think that's a streach.
2 years ago i compared him to young Ibaka, and that's how i see his career tragjectory. He will have blocks, steals, ok rebounding, just don't expect too much on offense.

i think Isaac, just like Gordon gets overhyped because fans know other twos , in Isaac's case Fultz and Bamba and in Gordon's case Hezonja and Payton - are simply worst. But that doesn't make them elite.

There is no doubt that he can be monster on defense. But in order to ulitize that type of player in best fashion, you need shooters ,ballhandlers and scorers to compensate his deficiency on offense. Magic compensate bad offensive talent of his, with even worst offensive talent of Bamba. ( mine biggest issue with drafting process from WeHam)
Biggest knock on Gordon is that he is not star. But that's not fair. It's not his fault that team never could find star level guard or superstar in general.

i agree, but is Gordon a difference maker on offense? Isaac can be a difference maker on defense. There is the rub. And you know me, ive never been a huge cheerleader of either one.



I added on post below that due salary situation and because one has rookie scale contract and other does not, i still think Isaac is better asset.
i have been called Gordon hater in past enough so everybody knows i was never super high on him :lol:
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1015 » by cedric76 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:26 pm

Hard to find a trade for buddy hield as his contract is so small


FOX
Bogdan
Barnes
Bagley
Mo

Buddy for Mo+2019 1st +2021 1st is the most we could offer and i think it wouldnt be enough
Grayson or Monk? Bring the cheapest

unleash Jett next seaon
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1016 » by tiderulz » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:37 pm

cedric76 wrote:Hard to find a trade for buddy hield as his contract is so small


FOX
Bogdan
Barnes
Bagley
Mo

Buddy for Mo+2019 1st +2021 1st is the most we could offer and i think it wouldnt be enough

if they arent willing to pay his salary demands, his price is going to drop because other teams will smell blood in the water
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1017 » by MagicMatic » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:24 pm

Def Swami wrote:Gonna place some faith in Cliff's confidence.

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We can absolutely set the data aside from preseason. Where this argument completely falls apart is the fact that this roster has struggled offensively in the past few seasons with essentially the same roster. Nobody needs to include preseason to make that case.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1018 » by MagicFan101 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:38 pm

When Gordon is having a good night, he is far superior to anything Isaac has shown offensively so far.

The problem here is that Gordon is so damn hot and cold and while he is solid on the other end, Isaac is a monster EVERY SINGLE NIGHT.

It took Gordon a while to get to the point where he could have these big nights sprinkled in. I have faith that Isaac will as well. The defensive end is where he will always earn his money and leaves Gordon far behind.

Easy choice here. Isaac > Gordon.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1019 » by basketballRob » Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:14 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:When Gordon is having a good night, he is far superior to anything Isaac has shown offensively so far.

The problem here is that Gordon is so damn hot and cold and while he is solid on the other end, Isaac is a monster EVERY SINGLE NIGHT.

It took Gordon a while to get to the point where he could have these big nights sprinkled in. I have faith that Isaac will as well. The defensive end is where he will always earn his money and leaves Gordon far behind.

Easy choice here. Isaac > Gordon.
Same could be said about DJ and Fournier. Both of those players could give you a total blank on certain nights.

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1020 » by Def Swami » Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:14 pm

Gordon and Isaac's defensive impact are so similar. I can understand why some rate Isaac higher; his height and length gives him slightly more versatility, but Gordon can do many of those similar things. Isaac had a slightly higher DRTG last season (106 vs 109), but Gordon led in DWS and DBPM. Gordon's offensive game is definitely superior at the moment. He developed as a playmaker and has improved his shooting (still not even close to a strength), so he's ahead in BPM and VORP.

Having both Isaac and Gordon is such a huge part of the identify of the team. Having two lockdown guys who can switch across the board is a large reason for our defensive prowess last season. I'd hate to lose either, but we're at such a dearth of shooting and playmaking; someone has to go at some point to make up for these weaknesses (especially, since the front office isn't addressing it in the draft or free agency).

As a player, Gordon is better right now. But, in an asset perspective, Isaac probably has more value given his age and contract.

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