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Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: bored - when is it B-ball time?

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: bored - when is it B-ball time? 

Post#121 » by MoMM » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:54 pm

ezzzp wrote:"its not going to be a big opportunity, its not like they're going to get huge amounts for this player, its just made me think of all of this stuff"

Not sure, but after reading this sentence, I don't think it's Bamba. It's another player, perhaps Frank? You can't get more than a 2nd round pick for him, however, he played 120 games (21mpg), it's a lot for 2 seasons, IMO.

Another option, as someone mentioned, is that it can be a lottery pick or even lower, not a Top 8 for sure. Maybe Michael Porter Jr?
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: bored - when is it B-ball time? 

Post#122 » by Magic_Is_Here » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:41 pm

MoMM wrote:
ezzzp wrote:"its not going to be a big opportunity, its not like they're going to get huge amounts for this player, its just made me think of all of this stuff"

Not sure, but after reading this sentence, I don't think it's Bamba. It's another player, perhaps Frank? You can't get more than a 2nd round pick for him, however, he played 120 games (21mpg), it's a lot for 2 seasons, IMO.

Another option, as someone mentioned, is that it can be a lottery pick or even lower, not a Top 8 for sure. Maybe Michael Porter Jr?


Michael Porter Jr sounds like one of the better options. Lowe stated that the player still had value to teams which is why i feel that Ntilikina doesnt fit the criteria. I dont have a great idea of all the players that have been drafted in the past 3 or so drafts that this period would likely cover, but there are only a handful of players that the idea of sunk cost can even be applied to. The furthest back I could even see the pick being is maybe 15. If nothing else this will give the forum something to discuss until training camp starts.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: bored - when is it B-ball time? 

Post#123 » by pepe1991 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:02 am

MP Jr didn't play at all and really does not Nuggets all that much or they need him to pan out.

In my initial post i said i belive it's Bamba, Frank Ntilikina or Knox, but ezzzp was right when he posted transcript about that player not playing much, that takes Knox out. List of players drafted in lottery in last 5 years who didn't turn in something good and still are on same team is pretty thin.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: bored - when is it B-ball time? 

Post#124 » by SOUL » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:13 am

pepe1991 wrote:MP Jr didn't play at all and really does not Nuggets all that much or they need him to pan out.

In my initial post i said i belive it's Bamba, Frank Ntilikina or Knox, but ezzzp was right when he posted transcript about that player not playing much, that takes Knox out. List of players drafted in lottery in last 5 years who didn't turn in something good and still are on same team is pretty thin.


Not about Bamba either. Firstly because Zach Lowe isn't the type to declare anybody a bust after 1 year, and I think this line in particular....

Zach Lowe (at 23:27): "The sunk cost thing, I literally in the past few days have been talking to someone with a team who in the last - lets say 5 years has drafted a player...the player has not worked out...the player still has trade value because people are curious about this player, hasn't played much - maybe for whatever reason...and someone wants to trade this player, we should jump on that because it hasn't worked out so let's get something...and some of the stakeholders are so invested in this players success having selected him that its a non-starter in the organization...so I think the most likely outcome is he fails again and has no more trade value so they're going to miss an opportunity...its not going to be a big opportunity, its not like they're going to get huge amounts for this player, its just made me think of all of this stuff"

That would be a lot of proclamations for Bamba since he was getting steady minutes even when he wasn't playing well (even for a rookie), but he was showing positive signs before injury. Just doesn't make sense as a Zach Lowe thing to say firstly, to declare someone a non-starter after 1 year and also say the player "isn't playing, for whatever reason", Bamba clearly was playing and then not playing after getting injured, so that was his excuse because Clifford was giving him solid minutes, and his play was trending up those weeks prior to the injury.

I'd bet money he's talking about Malik Monk. Fits the criteria of being an interesting prospect still to some people, hasn't started for whatever reason, and barely averages over 18 minutes a game while getting his minutes wildly thrown around.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: bored - when is it B-ball time? 

Post#125 » by MagicStarwipe » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:59 am

SOUL wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:MP Jr didn't play at all and really does not Nuggets all that much or they need him to pan out.

In my initial post i said i belive it's Bamba, Frank Ntilikina or Knox, but ezzzp was right when he posted transcript about that player not playing much, that takes Knox out. List of players drafted in lottery in last 5 years who didn't turn in something good and still are on same team is pretty thin.


Not about Bamba either. Firstly because Zach Lowe isn't the type to declare anybody a bust after 1 year, and I think this line in particular....

Zach Lowe (at 23:27): "The sunk cost thing, I literally in the past few days have been talking to someone with a team who in the last - lets say 5 years has drafted a player...the player has not worked out...the player still has trade value because people are curious about this player, hasn't played much - maybe for whatever reason...and someone wants to trade this player, we should jump on that because it hasn't worked out so let's get something...and some of the stakeholders are so invested in this players success having selected him that its a non-starter in the organization...so I think the most likely outcome is he fails again and has no more trade value so they're going to miss an opportunity...its not going to be a big opportunity, its not like they're going to get huge amounts for this player, its just made me think of all of this stuff"

That would be a lot of proclamations for Bamba since he was getting steady minutes even when he wasn't playing well (even for a rookie), but he was showing positive signs before injury. Just doesn't make sense as a Zach Lowe thing to say firstly, to declare someone a non-starter after 1 year and also say the player "isn't playing, for whatever reason", Bamba clearly was playing and then not playing after getting injured, so that was his excuse because Clifford was giving him solid minutes, and his play was trending up those weeks prior to the injury.

I'd bet money he's talking about Malik Monk. Fits the criteria of being an interesting prospect still to some people, hasn't started for whatever reason, and barely averages over 18 minutes a game while getting his minutes wildly thrown around.


I agree, that part doesn't really make sense if it's about Bamba.

I'd also like to say screw you photobucket.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: bored - when is it B-ball time? 

Post#126 » by MagicMatic » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:54 am

SOUL wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:MP Jr didn't play at all and really does not Nuggets all that much or they need him to pan out.

In my initial post i said i belive it's Bamba, Frank Ntilikina or Knox, but ezzzp was right when he posted transcript about that player not playing much, that takes Knox out. List of players drafted in lottery in last 5 years who didn't turn in something good and still are on same team is pretty thin.


Not about Bamba either. Firstly because Zach Lowe isn't the type to declare anybody a bust after 1 year, and I think this line in particular....

Zach Lowe (at 23:27): "The sunk cost thing, I literally in the past few days have been talking to someone with a team who in the last - lets say 5 years has drafted a player...the player has not worked out...the player still has trade value because people are curious about this player, hasn't played much - maybe for whatever reason...and someone wants to trade this player, we should jump on that because it hasn't worked out so let's get something...and some of the stakeholders are so invested in this players success having selected him that its a non-starter in the organization...so I think the most likely outcome is he fails again and has no more trade value so they're going to miss an opportunity...its not going to be a big opportunity, its not like they're going to get huge amounts for this player, its just made me think of all of this stuff"

That would be a lot of proclamations for Bamba since he was getting steady minutes even when he wasn't playing well (even for a rookie), but he was showing positive signs before injury. Just doesn't make sense as a Zach Lowe thing to say firstly, to declare someone a non-starter after 1 year and also say the player "isn't playing, for whatever reason", Bamba clearly was playing and then not playing after getting injured, so that was his excuse because Clifford was giving him solid minutes, and his play was trending up those weeks prior to the injury.

I'd bet money he's talking about Malik Monk. Fits the criteria of being an interesting prospect still to some people, hasn't started for whatever reason, and barely averages over 18 minutes a game while getting his minutes wildly thrown around.


I don’t necessarily think he’s talking about Bamba or would call a 1 year player a bust. However, this kind of logic applies to Bamba as well with the offseason moves that were made. They wouldn’t trade him, and end up looking massively incompetent in the process, for the sake of getting “something instead of nothing”. Other teams have flipped players early in their careers to maximize the asset. Orlando doesn’t come off like that kind of organization.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: bored - when is it B-ball time? 

Post#127 » by fendilim » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:01 am

SOUL wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:MP Jr didn't play at all and really does not Nuggets all that much or they need him to pan out.

In my initial post i said i belive it's Bamba, Frank Ntilikina or Knox, but ezzzp was right when he posted transcript about that player not playing much, that takes Knox out. List of players drafted in lottery in last 5 years who didn't turn in something good and still are on same team is pretty thin.


Not about Bamba either. Firstly because Zach Lowe isn't the type to declare anybody a bust after 1 year, and I think this line in particular....

Zach Lowe (at 23:27): "The sunk cost thing, I literally in the past few days have been talking to someone with a team who in the last - lets say 5 years has drafted a player...the player has not worked out...the player still has trade value because people are curious about this player, hasn't played much - maybe for whatever reason...and someone wants to trade this player, we should jump on that because it hasn't worked out so let's get something...and some of the stakeholders are so invested in this players success having selected him that its a non-starter in the organization...so I think the most likely outcome is he fails again and has no more trade value so they're going to miss an opportunity...its not going to be a big opportunity, its not like they're going to get huge amounts for this player, its just made me think of all of this stuff"

That would be a lot of proclamations for Bamba since he was getting steady minutes even when he wasn't playing well (even for a rookie), but he was showing positive signs before injury. Just doesn't make sense as a Zach Lowe thing to say firstly, to declare someone a non-starter after 1 year and also say the player "isn't playing, for whatever reason", Bamba clearly was playing and then not playing after getting injured, so that was his excuse because Clifford was giving him solid minutes, and his play was trending up those weeks prior to the injury.

I'd bet money he's talking about Malik Monk. Fits the criteria of being an interesting prospect still to some people, hasn't started for whatever reason, and barely averages over 18 minutes a game while getting his minutes wildly thrown around.

It may be possible that he is just quoting his source though, about “Bamba” not playing much. When you consider that he didn’t really play a lot of games, and when he did, it was mostly limited minutes.

My hunch is Knox though.

It would be sad if it’s Bamba. WeHam should have learnt by now, with what happened with ... who they ended up trading only for peanuts.


Again, this just brings out the Jerry West approach is correct in trading young players early, if they are showing red flags, because chances of them turning things around is slim, and no one else has better inside information about a player than their current team itself. Something West did with Drew Gooden, and replicated by Hinkie by trading MCW. lol.

I honestly doubt it’s bamba. I may be wrong, but there is really limited amount of minutes to conclude on Bamba. But then again, what do I know. I’m not working for the team. Lol
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: bored - when is it B-ball time? 

Post#128 » by pepe1991 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:07 am

Knox played 30 mpg , it could be Monk but he wasn't really high lottery pick, guy was selected 11# overall.
I think it's less important is this specific thing about Bamba, but the fact is, Magic have center who signed 4 years extension and Birch is good enough to be backup. Where that leaves Bamba and where he will get PT ? Over Birch?
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: bored - when is it B-ball time? 

Post#129 » by fendilim » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:31 am

pepe1991 wrote:Knox played 30 mpg , it could be Monk but he wasn't really high lottery pick, guy was selected 11# overall.
I think it's less important is this specific thing about Bamba, but the fact is, Magic have center who signed 4 years extension and Birch is good enough to be backup. Where that leaves Bamba and where he will get PT ? Over Birch?

I dont really see the rush of why we have to play Bamba right now.

Bamba can still improve playing limited minutes. Let him slowly get into the groove. Player curves vary, as long as there is progress i think we’ll be doing good. I think letting him play limited minutes in meaningful games is better than letting him run around with nothing to play for.

We can’t force to ripen a fruit, it won’t taste good.

When the time comes that he is ready to play more minutes, deal with it accordingly.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: bored - when is it B-ball time? 

Post#130 » by Bensational » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:03 am

"he hasn't played much - for whatever reason" sounds intentionally vague. Like, if he clarified the reason why it might spell out who that is. "he hasn't played much because of injuries" makes the list of possibilities much shorter. "He hasn't played much because of depth" again makes a short list. Or, "for whatever reason" could simply mean he doesn't know why they haven't had much time.

Pretty ambiguous amongst all that.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: bored - when is it B-ball time? 

Post#131 » by SOUL » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:19 am

Bensational wrote:"he hasn't played much - for whatever reason" sounds intentionally vague. Like, if he clarified the reason why it might spell out who that is. "he hasn't played much because of injuries" makes the list of possibilities much shorter. "He hasn't played much because of depth" again makes a short list. Or, "for whatever reason" could simply mean he doesn't know why they haven't had much time.

Pretty ambiguous amongst all that.


I think dismissing that means people are reading into so it fits their opinion on who it is, imo.

I mean to be that intentionally vague is him doubling down on this player's skill and future being pretty bad, which I just don't think he would be down on one player after a shortened season. That's why I don't think it's about Bamba or Knox. Take the simple phrase of "Hasn't worked out" for example, next people will try to tie it to Bamba to insinuate that he's trying to say "Bamba didn't work out because he wasn't the starter by day 1 and didn't beat out a player that had an all-star season". Keep in mind, Vuc's previous 2-3 seasons were very meh, people were growing tired of him, and Bamba was the highest ceiling prospect on the board. 95% of the board was on board with the pick until Vuc played like a man with his hair on fire this last season. And even with all that, most people expected Bamba's minutes to be at the 17-25 minute range.

Orlando made the playoffs, Bamba has been working his ass off this summer and seems to embrace the role of working to be the future big man of the team. "Hasn't worked out" to me, reads like something Lowe would say when the team exhausted all opportunity to try and make the guy work and it just hasn't, not a guy that got injured halfway through his rookie year while his team got to the playoffs. He would have to be vague again for that to allude to Bamba, because for Bamba it would be more of a "not sure if the team needs him" narrative that also is way too quick to apply, instead of "hasn't worked out" -- there was nothing to work out after the injury.

Same with the "stakeholders" comment and "not much value", like, Lowe would have to be super down on this guy to make statements about there not being any value, and Bamba with just a plus sophomore season in looking the part on the floor + advanced stats, meaning being a solid defender and a reliable stretch big would instantly drive his value way up or make him a legit threat as the future of the team.

If it was a hack journalist, I'd be more on the it's Bamba train, but I very much doubt that it is.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: bored - when is it B-ball time? 

Post#132 » by MagicStarwipe » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:29 am

There's also the possibility that Lowe's sources are wrong lol.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: bored - when is it B-ball time? 

Post#133 » by SOUL » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:35 am

Also listened to the pod, he never said the phrase "high pick", so it could be literally anybody, he just said the player just has (some) trade value and teams are interested because they haven't seen much of that player "for whatever reason". Sounds like a Bucks Tobias Harris potential situation to me, or like I said, if it was a lottery talent, it would be the Monk sort of player that has been in the league a few years and is still enticing to a degree, but you don't understand why he hasn't gotten more minutes when the players playing in front of him haven't been that great.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: bored - when is it B-ball time? 

Post#134 » by Skybox » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:58 am

So happy that Evan played well for France. If he returns to prior form, this team is really deep and the offense could be as formidable as the team defense. I wonder if there’s a role for him as a primary second-team playmaker? Lots of versatility on this roster...if Fultz, Evan, and Okeke mesh well...that’s all-new firepower we really didn’t get last year from their spots. I’m hoping that by mid-season, we’re worried about losing UFA Evan, not just looking forward to cap space. (That’s a lot of “ifs”, I know) but if Evan is just old Evan and Fultz is comeback story of the year “consensus #1 pick Fultz”....who scares you in the East? AG-All Star, Fultz and Isaac giving notice for consideration next year. Vuc, Ross, and DJ stabilizing as solid players following career years. Bamba emerging as double double threat off the bench with occasional 5 block dominance against second-units (still sporadic but glimpses of special). Evan and Bamba packaged with picks for Beal.

Fultz/DJ/MCW
Evan/Torch
Isaac/Okeke/Wes
AG/Aminu
Vuc/Bamba/Birch

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: bored - when is it B-ball time? 

Post#135 » by Solid Snake » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:27 pm

So....... Still nothing on chuma? I mean we aren't too far from training camp, what's going on?

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: bored - when is it B-ball time? 

Post#136 » by fendilim » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:49 pm

chuma’s contract nego is quite lengthy... should i be surprised with weham preferring length?
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: bored - when is it B-ball time? 

Post#137 » by Catledge » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:21 pm

fendilim wrote:chuma’s contract nego is quite lengthy... should i be surprised with weham preferring length?


I can't decide if this is so terrible that it's good or if it's just terrible.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: bored - when is it B-ball time? 

Post#138 » by ezzzp » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:46 pm

Solid Snake wrote:So....... Still nothing on chuma? I mean we aren't too far from training camp, what's going on?

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Its more than likely related to training camp results. Here is a repost of my explanation that I put on the Okeke thread a couple of weeks ago:

Spoiler:
The Magic have Okeke's NBA rights. He can not negotiate or sign with any other NBA team while the Magic have those rights.

The Magic had until July 15, 2019 to offer him a "required tender" (a contract offer signed by the team). If the Magic had failed to do that, then Okeke would have immediately become a rookie free agent and the Magic would be prohibited from signing him anytime in the future (except after he has already played for another NBA team).

In other words, the Magic obviously offered him a "required tender (contract)" as he's been rehabbing at Amway...why would they allow that if they are never legally allowed to sign him. Okeke has until the first day of the regular season to sign the "required tender."

• The Okeke scenario that I feel is possibly playing out:

The delay in his signing is related to the Magic's luxury tax space and how the 15th roster spot plays out in training camp.

With Okeke's cap hold, if the Magic decide to add a 15th player to the roster AND stay under the luxury tax, they would need to slightly adjust the 1st year salary of Okeke's actual contract.

For example if DeQuan Jeffries (or another minimum salary player) makes the team and takes that 15 roster spot, then the Magic can make Okeke's contract slightly less ($78k) to fit DeQuan Jeffries salary under the luxury tax.

If Jeffries (or other training camp invitee) doesn't make the team, and the Magic leave the 15th roster spot empty entering the season, then they just make Okeke's contract at the normal rookie contract rate.

The Magic pay Okeke $78k less on his 1st year salary, but that's only IF the Magic fill the 15th spot in training camp.

In addition, this scenario leaves the door open for Okeke to play in the NBA this 2019-20 season...after all, his ACL recovery timeline estimates a return window of mid December - mid February.

• For those speculating that Okeke is refusing to sign:

1) Per the CBA, that "required tender" must provide guaranteed compensation protection (be it for lack of skill or injury) for at least 2 seasons at not less than 80% of the applicable Rookie Scale Amount. Article VII C ii (page 267)

2) Okeke was an "Early Draft Entry" player. Early Entry players are bound by their drafting teams until one year after the first NBA Draft they could have entered as non-Early Entry players. In other words, the Magic have Okeke's draft rights for this year (19-20 season) and next year's draft (20-21 season). LINK

In other words, if Okeke (rehabbing an ACL injury) refuses to sign the Magic's "required tender," he would be rejecting $4.3-$6.4 million in guaranteed money...AND he would knowingly be delaying his NBA career until the 2022-23 season, which is the first season he can sign with another team other than the Magic.

• For those speculating that Okeke and the Magic have an agreement to delay signing until next season:

Immediately upon the Magic selecting Okeke in the draft, a 120% Rookie Scale cap hold was applied to the Magic's team salary.

That cap hold can only be removed if the Magic and Okeke both agree in writing not to sign a contract through June 30, 2020. That paused 120% cap hold scale amount returns immediately to the team salary on July 1, 2020.

While this would be very beneficial to the Magic, there is no incentive for Chuma Okeke to do this.

By postponing his signing to next year, Okeke could make $225k more in his first year salary...BUT to get that little bit more he would have to take a massive gamble. Its unrealistic that a player recovering from an ACL tear will put at risk $4.3 to $6.4 million in guaranteed money just to squeeze out an additional $225k. Rookie scale contracts can not include any form of bonuses or performance incentives.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: bored - when is it B-ball time? 

Post#139 » by basketballRob » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:39 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Knox played 30 mpg , it could be Monk but he wasn't really high lottery pick, guy was selected 11# overall.
I think it's less important is this specific thing about Bamba, but the fact is, Magic have center who signed 4 years extension and Birch is good enough to be backup. Where that leaves Bamba and where he will get PT ? Over Birch?
Yes he will play over Birch.

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: bored - when is it B-ball time? 

Post#140 » by yoyojw17 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:54 pm

fendilim wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Knox played 30 mpg , it could be Monk but he wasn't really high lottery pick, guy was selected 11# overall.
I think it's less important is this specific thing about Bamba, but the fact is, Magic have center who signed 4 years extension and Birch is good enough to be backup. Where that leaves Bamba and where he will get PT ? Over Birch?

I dont really see the rush of why we have to play Bamba right now.

Bamba can still improve playing limited minutes. Let him slowly get into the groove. Player curves vary, as long as there is progress i think we’ll be doing good. I think letting him play limited minutes in meaningful games is better than letting him run around with nothing to play for.

We can’t force to ripen a fruit, it won’t taste good.

When the time comes that he is ready to play more minutes, deal with it accordingly.

Agreed.... i would be beyond happy with some 18-20 min of quality defense and scoring efficiency from bamba this upcoming season. More than satisfied. And that alone will allow us to take a huge step forward. I feel like our bench is going to be infinitely better this year around. hopefully more holding leads.... and more taking leads than losing them.. lol

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