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Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition

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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1821 » by Bergmaniac » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:36 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Also how to overcome fact he can't shoot but eats 25% usage rate?

What's there to overcome? He's an extremely efficient scorer. And that's despite almost always playing with centres who can't shoot at all.

He'd do fine if he's paired with a really good defensive centre even if the centre can't shoot. And he can still improve defensively a lot in the coming years, he's played less than 80 NBA games in his career and most young bigs are pretty bad defensively and improve in time.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1822 » by pepe1991 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:49 pm

Knightro wrote:Some flaming hot takes in this thread.

Zion is averaging 27 PPG on a 65% TS%. Like I don't care how bad he is defensively, if a guy is that good efficient offensively you just gotta figure the rest of it out.


25 ppg, 60% TS, you just have to figure rest of it out

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26 points, 59% TS, 9,0 BPM

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26 ppg, 58% TS

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32 ppg, 10,7 rebounds, 10,4 assists, first player since Oscar to average triple double

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27 ppg, 63,3% TS in this season

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Either Kevin Love,>Derozan, Kevin Martin, Zach Lavine and Cousins were superstars (were not,are not) or they were, like Zion, given 30% usage rate to rape their own teams for personal gain in box score and some popularity to impress 14 years old teenager in china to buy their yersey.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1823 » by pepe1991 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:52 pm

Bergmaniac wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Also how to overcome fact he can't shoot but eats 25% usage rate?

What's there to overcome? He's an extremely efficient scorer. And that's despite almost always playing with centres who can't shoot at all.

He'd do fine if he's paired with a really good defensive centre even if the centre can't shoot. And he can still improve defensively a lot in the coming years, he's played less than 80 NBA games in his career and most young bigs are pretty bad defensively and improve in time.



Adams is definition of great defensive center... Bledsoe and Lonzo are top tear guard defenders, Pelicans still get wracked on defense mostly because teams target Zion in pick&roll....

He is not "pretty bad", players tend to shoot worst without anybody guarding them than Zion guarding them :lol:

He is not even big, that's they key point. He is Kevin Love on defense. Short and has no reach to bother shots. But unlike Love he has no feeling for rebounds, making his defense that much worst.
Prediction day after Vuc, Gordon, Evan departure - most fans who are celebrating birth of new rebuild will be crying how rebuild is painful before 2022-23 season ends.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1824 » by Bergmaniac » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:18 pm

Adams hasn't been a great defensive centre in years, if he ever was. Now he's average at best, probably worse. Bledsoe has completely checked out mentally this year and doesn't try on D, and he got old too.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1825 » by pepe1991 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:31 pm

Bergmaniac wrote:Adams hasn't been a great defensive centre in years, if he ever was. Now he's average at best, probably worse. Bledsoe has completely checked out mentally this year and doesn't try on D, and he got old too.


Bledsoe is 31 and was comming of graet defensive season with Bucks.
Adams has been a steadying presence in the Pelicans’ frontcourt, buying into Stan Van Gundy’s defensive system. In that system, Van Gundy values good position and shot contesting more than standard blocks.

That’s something that Adams has done well, successfully contesting 10 shots per game, a number that is among the best in the league. In addition to that, stats from NBA.com indicate that Adams ranks highly in key defensive metrics such as defensive rating, plus/minus, and defensive win shares. Essentially, he’s an analytics darling.



Yea... both are elite defenders, Lonzo is easly one of best on ball defenders at guard position, Ingram is acceptable...and there is 5th guy ... yea... everybody with funcional brain can figure out who kills their defense and it's not Lonzo, not Bledsoe, not Ingram and for sure not Adams .
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1826 » by Knightro » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:39 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Knightro wrote:Some flaming hot takes in this thread.

Zion is averaging 27 PPG on a 65% TS%. Like I don't care how bad he is defensively, if a guy is that good efficient offensively you just gotta figure the rest of it out.


-25 ppg, 60% TS, you just have to figure rest of it out
-26 points, 59% TS, 9,0 BPM
-26 ppg, 58% TS
-32 ppg, 10,7 rebounds, 10,4 assists, first player since Oscar to average triple double
-27 ppg, 63,3% TS in this season


Just to be clear, you've cited five players who were all LESS efficient than Zion has been this year and yet you think this makes your point stronger.

The gap between a 65% TS% and a 58-60% TS is *massive* by the way.

Zion is 10th in the NBA in TS% and 3rd behind former MVP's Curry and Durant when you just factor in high usage players.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1827 » by Bergmaniac » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:50 pm

Adams has played over 500 minutes this season without Zion on the court and the Pels' defensive rating in these minutes is 115.6, which is quite bad. Adams and Bledsoe on the court together without Zion have a defensive rating of 114.2, which is still quite bad. Yes, they are worse defensively with Zion, but they are still bad defensively even when he's not playing.

Everyone on the Pelicans subreddit wants SVG to bench Bledsoe ASAP, he's been that bad on both ends. And about his defensive metrics - https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/mpuhno/eric_bledsoe_defensive_metrics_epm_24_5th/
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1828 » by pepe1991 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:50 pm

Knightro wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Knightro wrote:Some flaming hot takes in this thread.

Zion is averaging 27 PPG on a 65% TS%. Like I don't care how bad he is defensively, if a guy is that good efficient offensively you just gotta figure the rest of it out.


-25 ppg, 60% TS, you just have to figure rest of it out
-26 points, 59% TS, 9,0 BPM
-26 ppg, 58% TS
-32 ppg, 10,7 rebounds, 10,4 assists, first player since Oscar to average triple double
-27 ppg, 63,3% TS in this season


Just to be clear, you've cited five players who were all LESS efficient than Zion has been this year and yet you think this makes your point stronger.

The gap between a 65% TS% and a 58-60% TS is *massive* by the way.

Zion is 10th in the NBA in TS% and 3rd behind former MVP's Curry and Durant when you just factor in high usage players.


Deandre Jordan has highest TS% in nba and aba history because he never attemped shots outside 2 feets.
Zion took that blueprint.

It's manipulation of data and nothing else, you simply won't miss many shots shooting nothing but layups and dunking the ball.


Nothing to say about 2021 27ppg,63% TS - better individual season by effective scoring than Jordan- Zach Lavine? Doesn't fit claim? :roll:

Yes, 5 players that were all stat padders on bad teams like zion is. But unlike Zion they didn't had "honor" to be forcefed into 17 point blank layup attemps a game because it would have been embarrassing for most skilled players to do. Not for Zion tho, layups and FTs and never leaving paint.

Eveybody , you included, got my point well and clear. Stat padding on bad teams isn't nothing new . Just because you put up 27 ppg on team that is bad that doesn't mean you are superstar nor that your contribution to winning team would be massive. Kevin Martin is living example of player that couldn't do anything on good teams yet always had massive individual stats on bad ones.
Kevin Love was posterboy of " great american white players"early in 2010s and closest thing he ever was to positive contribution was standing in corner for 16 ppg and watching Kyrie and Lebron create for him. Yet same Kevin Love on Minessota averaged 26 ppg on 14 rebounds and had random Larry Bird - McHale comparisons.


Only difference here is curruption of data. True shooting percentage can't predict player will attemp no mid range shots, no 3 point shoots and will only shoot layups whole year. Again,that's why Deandre Jordan is most effective nba player ever, and i highly doubt he is any conversation for GOAT... Well.. Jordan is.. just not Deandre...
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1829 » by Bergmaniac » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:58 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Yes, 5 players that were all stat padders on bad teams like zion is. But unlike Zion they didn't had "honor" to be forcefed into 17 point blank layup attemps a game because it would have been embarrassing for most skilled players to do. Not for Zion tho, layups and FTs and never leaving paint.

This is a really bizarre argument. Since when is getting to the rim a lot and finishing really efficiently there a bad thing? If other players could get to the rim as easily and as often and finish there at a 70% clip as Zion, they'd shoot only layups too, why wouldn't they? It's still the most efficient shot in basketball unless your name is Steph Curry.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1830 » by pepe1991 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:24 pm

Bergmaniac wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Yes, 5 players that were all stat padders on bad teams like zion is. But unlike Zion they didn't had "honor" to be forcefed into 17 point blank layup attemps a game because it would have been embarrassing for most skilled players to do. Not for Zion tho, layups and FTs and never leaving paint.

This is a really bizarre argument. Since when is getting to the rim a lot and finishing really efficiently there a bad thing? If other players could get to the rim as easily and as often and finish there at a 70% clip as Zion, they'd shoot only layups too, why wouldn't they? It's still the most efficient shot in basketball unless your name is Steph Curry.


Since better version of Zion - Giannis, was named two times MVP because he abused fact nobody was going to body him up on most of his drives in regular season,

Giannis during first MVP award shot 72% of all shots inside 3 feet, had 64,4% TS and averaged 27,7 ppg.
11% shots from mid range and 16% for 3.

Do you know what happend to him in playoffs, once players actually started to guard him, and not run away from him like most teams and player still tend to do in regular seasons?
Raw ppg down ,raw FG% down by 8%, TS% down by 6%

But this picture sums it up how he was taken out so easly

Image

So sure, my take might sound bizzare beause i don't give a flying f*** about regular season when i talk about star players, it's sh** fest of no defense, that's how we are having random 163-160 games in regular time. But playoffs are what makes or breaks stars. And in Zion's case, player without jumpshot AND bad defense simply doesn't offer much , especially if somebody thinks he should be best player on championship team ( because, that's what are expetations from him).
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1831 » by Bergmaniac » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:59 pm

Zion and Giannis aren't the same player.

And you are really overstating how easy is to stop Giannis in the playoffs. Against Boston he averaged 28 PPG on 62% TS in 2019 and 26 PPG on 62% TS the previous year, so that picture doesn't exactly help your case.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1832 » by Knightro » Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:47 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Deandre Jordan has highest TS% in nba and aba history because he never attemped shots outside 2 feets.
Zion took that blueprint.

It's manipulation of data and nothing else, you simply won't miss many shots shooting nothing but layups and dunking the ball.

Nothing to say about 2021 27ppg,63% TS - better individual season by effective scoring than Jordan- Zach Lavine? Doesn't fit claim? :roll:

Yes, 5 players that were all stat padders on bad teams like zion is. But unlike Zion they didn't had "honor" to be forcefed into 17 point blank layup attemps a game because it would have been embarrassing for most skilled players to do. Not for Zion tho, layups and FTs and never leaving paint.

Eveybody , you included, got my point well and clear. Stat padding on bad teams isn't nothing new . Just because you put up 27 ppg on team that is bad that doesn't mean you are superstar nor that your contribution to winning team would be massive. Kevin Martin is living example of player that couldn't do anything on good teams yet always had massive individual stats on bad ones.
Kevin Love was posterboy of " great american white players"early in 2010s and closest thing he ever was to positive contribution was standing in corner for 16 ppg and watching Kyrie and Lebron create for him. Yet same Kevin Love on Minessota averaged 26 ppg on 14 rebounds and had random Larry Bird - McHale comparisons.

Only difference here is curruption of data. True shooting percentage can't predict player will attemp no mid range shots, no 3 point shoots and will only shoot layups whole year. Again,that's why Deandre Jordan is most effective nba player ever, and i highly doubt he is any conversation for GOAT... Well.. Jordan is.. just not Deandre...


This is such a hilariously disingenuous argument and you know it.

DeAndre Jordan's career usage rate is 14%. Zion's is 30% this year.

DeAndre's TS% would drop like a rock if he was ever forced into a 30% usage role.

You suggest that a player only shooting dunks and layups is a bad thing, but you are laughably ignoring the fact that Zion is able to generate this many high percentage shots every single night at this much volume when NO OTHER PLAYER IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA has ever generated this many shots at the rim and converted them at this high of percentage on a nightly basis.

It's literally unprecedented.

Zion takes 17 shots per game and draws over 8 FTs per game, so unofficially he's attempting roughly over 20 shots PER GAME at the rim. On top of that insane volume, he converts over 70% of those shots!

Do you realize how freaking insane that is? Apparently not.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1833 » by PrimeThyme » Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:18 am

Yeah, to me regular concerns such as height && lack of shooting just don't apply to a player like Zion. He is a once-in-a-generation type of athlete and is just a better more cerebral/skilled player than Blake ever was.

He has had to and is going to continue to carry a Lebron/Harden level load offensively for NO's as he is a special player on that end. I'm never going to get too caught up in his play defensively as a result. By most advanced metrics he has improved on that end this year regardless, so I would expect him to continue to going forward as well.

I see Zion's career going extremely similarly to Barkley's. He's in another stratosphere as all the other players who have been mentioned in this thread so far.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1834 » by SOUL » Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:21 am

Deni with a horrible injury.. this season has been bad particularly bad with the schedule and quick turnaround from last season. Still some freak injuries but damn, hope he recovers okay.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1835 » by basketballRob » Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:25 am

SOUL wrote:Deni with a horrible injury.. this season has been bad particularly bad with the schedule and quick turnaround from last season. Still some freak injuries but damn, hope he recovers okay.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1836 » by Xatticus » Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:01 am

pepe1991 wrote:
Bergmaniac wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Also how to overcome fact he can't shoot but eats 25% usage rate?

What's there to overcome? He's an extremely efficient scorer. And that's despite almost always playing with centres who can't shoot at all.

He'd do fine if he's paired with a really good defensive centre even if the centre can't shoot. And he can still improve defensively a lot in the coming years, he's played less than 80 NBA games in his career and most young bigs are pretty bad defensively and improve in time.



Adams is definition of great defensive center... Bledsoe and Lonzo are top tear guard defenders, Pelicans still get wracked on defense mostly because teams target Zion in pick&roll....

He is not "pretty bad", players tend to shoot worst without anybody guarding them than Zion guarding them :lol:

He is not even big, that's they key point. He is Kevin Love on defense. Short and has no reach to bother shots. But unlike Love he has no feeling for rebounds, making his defense that much worst.


He's 6'7". He isn't listed as a center. He doesn't play center. I don't know why you'd call him a center or compare him to Andre Drummond.

He has a +2.1 net differential because even though they are 5 points per 100 possessions worse defensively when he plays, they are 7 points better per 100 possessions offensively when he is on the floor. I get that he isn't there yet and they have to figure out how best to use him, but nobody can stop him from getting to the basket and he is a terrific finisher when he gets there. He is 11th in the league in eFG% on roughly 30% usage. Only two of the players above him have anything near league average usage (Porter and Ayton). He's obviously a good player and he is 20 years old. I don't see the problem here.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1837 » by MoMM » Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:05 am

Knightro wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Deandre Jordan has highest TS% in nba and aba history because he never attemped shots outside 2 feets.
Zion took that blueprint.

It's manipulation of data and nothing else, you simply won't miss many shots shooting nothing but layups and dunking the ball.

Nothing to say about 2021 27ppg,63% TS - better individual season by effective scoring than Jordan- Zach Lavine? Doesn't fit claim? :roll:

Yes, 5 players that were all stat padders on bad teams like zion is. But unlike Zion they didn't had "honor" to be forcefed into 17 point blank layup attemps a game because it would have been embarrassing for most skilled players to do. Not for Zion tho, layups and FTs and never leaving paint.

Eveybody , you included, got my point well and clear. Stat padding on bad teams isn't nothing new . Just because you put up 27 ppg on team that is bad that doesn't mean you are superstar nor that your contribution to winning team would be massive. Kevin Martin is living example of player that couldn't do anything on good teams yet always had massive individual stats on bad ones.
Kevin Love was posterboy of " great american white players"early in 2010s and closest thing he ever was to positive contribution was standing in corner for 16 ppg and watching Kyrie and Lebron create for him. Yet same Kevin Love on Minessota averaged 26 ppg on 14 rebounds and had random Larry Bird - McHale comparisons.

Only difference here is curruption of data. True shooting percentage can't predict player will attemp no mid range shots, no 3 point shoots and will only shoot layups whole year. Again,that's why Deandre Jordan is most effective nba player ever, and i highly doubt he is any conversation for GOAT... Well.. Jordan is.. just not Deandre...


This is such a hilariously disingenuous argument and you know it.

DeAndre Jordan's career usage rate is 14%. Zion's is 30% this year.

DeAndre's TS% would drop like a rock if he was ever forced into a 30% usage role.

You suggest that a player only shooting dunks and layups is a bad thing, but you are laughably ignoring the fact that Zion is able to generate this many high percentage shots every single night at this much volume when NO OTHER PLAYER IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA has ever generated this many shots at the rim and converted them at this high of percentage on a nightly basis.

It's literally unprecedented.

Zion takes 17 shots per game and draws over 8 FTs per game, so unofficially he's attempting roughly over 20 shots PER GAME at the rim. On top of that insane volume, he converts over 70% of those shots!

Do you realize how freaking insane that is? Apparently not.

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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1838 » by pepe1991 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:36 am

Knightro wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Deandre Jordan has highest TS% in nba and aba history because he never attemped shots outside 2 feets.
Zion took that blueprint.

It's manipulation of data and nothing else, you simply won't miss many shots shooting nothing but layups and dunking the ball.

Nothing to say about 2021 27ppg,63% TS - better individual season by effective scoring than Jordan- Zach Lavine? Doesn't fit claim? :roll:

Yes, 5 players that were all stat padders on bad teams like zion is. But unlike Zion they didn't had "honor" to be forcefed into 17 point blank layup attemps a game because it would have been embarrassing for most skilled players to do. Not for Zion tho, layups and FTs and never leaving paint.

Eveybody , you included, got my point well and clear. Stat padding on bad teams isn't nothing new . Just because you put up 27 ppg on team that is bad that doesn't mean you are superstar nor that your contribution to winning team would be massive. Kevin Martin is living example of player that couldn't do anything on good teams yet always had massive individual stats on bad ones.
Kevin Love was posterboy of " great american white players"early in 2010s and closest thing he ever was to positive contribution was standing in corner for 16 ppg and watching Kyrie and Lebron create for him. Yet same Kevin Love on Minessota averaged 26 ppg on 14 rebounds and had random Larry Bird - McHale comparisons.

Only difference here is curruption of data. True shooting percentage can't predict player will attemp no mid range shots, no 3 point shoots and will only shoot layups whole year. Again,that's why Deandre Jordan is most effective nba player ever, and i highly doubt he is any conversation for GOAT... Well.. Jordan is.. just not Deandre...


This is such a hilariously disingenuous argument and you know it.

DeAndre Jordan's career usage rate is 14%. Zion's is 30% this year.

DeAndre's TS% would drop like a rock if he was ever forced into a 30% u
sage role.

You suggest that a player only shooting dunks and layups is a bad thing, but you are laughably ignoring the fact that Zion is able to generate this many high percentage shots every single night at this much volume when NO OTHER PLAYER IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA has ever generated this many shots at the rim and converted them at this high of percentage on a nightly basis.

It's literally unprecedented.

Zion takes 17 shots per game and draws over 8 FTs per game, so unofficially he's attempting roughly over 20 shots PER GAME at the rim. On top of that insane volume, he converts over 70% of those shots!

Do you realize how freaking insane that is? Apparently not.


Image


Image

Versitality level - Deandre Jordan.

Just because he gets ball way more than other centers, doesn't make him anything special. It's virtually impossible to have good team with player that is 6'6 and can't shoot pass 3 feet.

Xat to you, every year you kept repeating same old "you are what you guard" thing, every single game. So what is Zion, who can't defend anybody? Nothing?

He averages 26 ppg because of 30% usage rate, boosted pace and fact nobody plays defense nor anybody is bothered to put their body on the line to stop 280 pounds man during non playoff game in middle of regular season.
His team, however, keeps on sucking and sucking for 2 years, despite having " 2 allstars"

And given his body type, no versitality and no ability to play in any other way or fashion but like fat wracking ball, it's just matter of time until his knees will be Blake- Griffined.
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Date of writeup: March 26th, 2021.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1839 » by pepe1991 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:33 am

You suggest that a player only shooting dunks and layups is a bad thing, but you are laughably ignoring the fact that Zion is able to generate this many high percentage shots every single night at this much volume when NO OTHER PLAYER IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA has ever generated this many shots at the rim and converted them at this high of percentage on a nightly basis.


this is not true, players used to play in that fashion all the time in late 70s and early 80s. No outside shooting, boosted pace and layups.

Kiki Vandeweghe 30 ppg, 62% TS ( repeated 25+ ppg on +60% ts few times)

Moses Malone 28 ppg, +59% TS

Kevin Mchale 28 ppg, 65% TS

Adrian Dantley - 30 ppg, 65% TS

Bernard King 33 ppg, 58% TS ( or 26 ppg, 61% TS...)

McAdooo 31 ppg, 60% TS


Again, he plays basketball like it's 1978, in this month in particular, they force feed him with 32% usage rate despite him having -6,4 net rating and them losing 6 of last 9 games ,with 4 Ls in a row. But he averages 30ppg because of it and people compare him to Shaq, Lebron, God, Jesus....

I find it hilarious how people keep repeating that you can't play through center and you are what you defend, and in same time Zion is everything that in theory they hate -center who can't defend anybody, who can't shoot and who doesn't belong in modern era, yet now you and Xat "love him" , because he scores bunch of layups on a team that over two years has Orlando Magic 2015- type results. Hypocricy much? :lol:
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1840 » by GelbeWand09 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:40 am

I to be honest never cared much for Zion & i dont like the Pels arena at all, so i barely watch them. But I've watched the Knicks game at the weekend.
I woudnt compare Zion with Giannis. Giannis gets in the paint with looooooong strides. Zion is super explosive & for a guy of his weight got a unbelievable ability to move in tight spaces & change of direction.

2nd. The other part of his offense was much more Shaq, than Giannis too. He established deep post position & was absolute unmovable by any Knicks defender & when he caught the pass or the offensive rebound, he was too strong, combined with a fantastic body control. + His second jump is awesome.
I think his game is much more made for the Playoffs than Giannis. You cant just build a wall to get the ball out of his hands.

Giannis is a elite 2way player which makes him much more valuable but as a offensive player, i like Zion more.

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