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Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition

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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1841 » by tiderulz » Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:33 pm

Bergmaniac wrote:Adams has played over 500 minutes this season without Zion on the court and the Pels' defensive rating in these minutes is 115.6, which is quite bad. Adams and Bledsoe on the court together without Zion have a defensive rating of 114.2, which is still quite bad. Yes, they are worse defensively with Zion, but they are still bad defensively even when he's not playing.

Everyone on the Pelicans subreddit wants SVG to bench Bledsoe ASAP, he's been that bad on both ends. And about his defensive metrics - https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/mpuhno/eric_bledsoe_defensive_metrics_epm_24_5th/

yeah, i thought Bledsoe was cooked and i havent seen Adams as a good defensive center in awhile.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1842 » by Knightro » Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:45 pm

MoMM wrote:Image


I looked both of them up before I said what I said.

Shaq's TS% from age 20 to age 34 (his prime) was .584 and he only topped 60% twice. Zion's at 65% this year.

Not surprisingly, Shaq became more efficient later in his career as his usage went down.

Barkley had a 65% TS four years in a row from 1987 to 1990, but he never did it on a 30 USG the way Zion is doing it now.

Most high TS% guys *are* like DeAndre Jordan. Low usage guys who catch 1-2 lobs, get 1-2 putbacks and get 1-2 uncontested dunks every night.

The fact that Zion is able to score this much as the rim this efficiently is what makes it ridiculous.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1843 » by basketballRob » Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:05 pm

Knightro wrote:
MoMM wrote:Image


I looked both of them up before I said what I said.

Shaq's TS% from age 20 to age 34 (his prime) was .584 and he only topped 60% twice. Zion's at 65% this year.

Not surprisingly, Shaq became more efficient later in his career as his usage went down.

Barkley had a 65% TS four years in a row from 1987 to 1990, but he never did it on a 30 USG the way Zion is doing it now.

Most high TS% guys *are* like DeAndre Jordan. Low usage guys who catch a 1-2 lobs, get a 1-2 putbacks and get 1-2 uncontested dunks every night.

The fact that Zion is able to score this much as the rim this efficiently is what makes it ridiculous.
Noticed both Shaq and Zion have over a 500 FTR. To constantly have your opponent in foul trouble is only going to help.

The GM Griffin had all the advantages to make a great team. Bledsoe, Adams, and Redick are all toast now and terrible acquisitions. Just watch them play, they aren't good.

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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1844 » by Knightro » Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:09 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Versitality level - Deandre Jordan.

Just because he gets ball way more than other centers, doesn't make him anything special. It's virtually impossible to have good team with player that is 6'6 and can't shoot pass 3 feet.

Xat to you, every year you kept repeating same old "you are what you guard" thing, every single game. So what is Zion, who can't defend anybody? Nothing?

He averages 26 ppg because of 30% usage rate, boosted pace and fact nobody plays defense nor anybody is bothered to put their body on the line to stop 280 pounds man during non playoff game in middle of regular season.
His team, however, keeps on sucking and sucking for 2 years, despite having " 2 allstars"

And given his body type, no versitality and no ability to play in any other way or fashion but like fat wracking ball, it's just matter of time until his knees will be Blake- Griffined.


I'm sorry, but this is just such a goofy thing you're saying.

If other big men could do what Zion is doing and score this efficiently on this level of volume, every team in the the league would be allowing them to do it!

The reason why guys who score efficiently, like DeAndre, are typically super low usage is because their efficiency would drop like a rock if their volume increased.

THAT is what makes this so unique.

You say "he doesn't shoot outside of 3 feet" like that's a bad thing. But the reality is that we should be praising Zion for being the only player in basketball able to generate that many shot attempts a night from that distance and convert them at that high of a percentage.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1845 » by Knightro » Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:25 pm

pepe1991 wrote:this is not true, players used to play in that fashion all the time in late 70s and early 80s. No outside shooting, boosted pace and layups.

Kiki Vandeweghe 30 ppg, 62% TS ( repeated 25+ ppg on +60% ts few times)

Moses Malone 28 ppg, +59% TS

Kevin Mchale 28 ppg, 65% TS

Adrian Dantley - 30 ppg, 65% TS

Bernard King 33 ppg, 58% TS ( or 26 ppg, 61% TS...)

McAdooo 31 ppg, 60% TS


I think it's funny that for the second time in this thread you've cited multiple examples to strengthen your arguments, six in this case, and four of them don't even hit the baselines that Zion is hitting this year.

Good examples, I guess?
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1846 » by drsd » Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:51 pm

Knightro wrote:Most high TS% guys *are* like DeAndre Jordan. Low usage guys who catch 1-2 lobs, get 1-2 putbacks and get 1-2 uncontested dunks every night.


To agree, Bo Outlaw had a career eFG% of 56% and was above 60% in seven seasons. His TS% line was a career 57% with six 60% seasons.
Anyone that thinks he had a positive contribution to scoring buckets is not a fan of truth.

..
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1847 » by pepe1991 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:58 pm

Knightro wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Versitality level - Deandre Jordan.

Just because he gets ball way more than other centers, doesn't make him anything special. It's virtually impossible to have good team with player that is 6'6 and can't shoot pass 3 feet.

Xat to you, every year you kept repeating same old "you are what you guard" thing, every single game. So what is Zion, who can't defend anybody? Nothing?

He averages 26 ppg because of 30% usage rate, boosted pace and fact nobody plays defense nor anybody is bothered to put their body on the line to stop 280 pounds man during non playoff game in middle of regular season.
His team, however, keeps on sucking and sucking for 2 years, despite having " 2 allstars"

And given his body type, no versitality and no ability to play in any other way or fashion but like fat wracking ball, it's just matter of time until his knees will be Blake- Griffined.


I'm sorry, but this is just such a goofy thing you're saying.

If other big men could do what Zion is doing and score this efficiently on this level of volume, every team in the the league would be allowing them to do it!

The reason why guys who score efficiently, like DeAndre, are typically super low usage is because their efficiency would drop like a rock if their volume increased.

THAT is what makes this so unique.

You say "he doesn't shoot outside of 3 feet" like that's a bad thing. But the reality is that we should be praising Zion for being the only player in basketball able to generate that many shot attempts a night from that distance and convert them at that high of a percentage.



Because most of nba offenses are in business of making team better, not in business of making star look "real good".
There is virtually no reason for any nba player, limited to shots inside 3 feet, to be fed with +25 balls in post a night.


Zion was already put in isolation plays 136 times this year, his points per possession (1,02) ranks him execlly in same spot Carmelo Anthony is ranked now.
Zion actually had more iso actions than Embiid, who is more effective and has 1,13 points per possession.

Let's go further.
Pick&roll action as rolling big.
He isn't even good pick&roll player. His 1,11 points per possesion doesn't even crack top 60 among players who were involved in at least 20 pick a rolls. Matter of fact rookie Wiseman is better pick&roll partner than Zion, hell, Taj Gipson is.


Basic postups, agian, very s***ty numbers. 1,00 ppp , 64,7 percentile, ranked . His postups are as valuable as Paschall and his or Marcus Smart and his.


So how EXECLLY He climbs up to 26 ppg despite not being good at anything? Well very simple. He has special treatment from refs. Almost every time he misses anything around rim, refs blow the wisttle and send him to the line. Hence, that's how guy who isn't really good at any set play , isn't ballhandler and isn't good at driving at set defense - averages 10 free trows a game.

The reason why guys who score efficiently, like DeAndre, are typically super low usage is because their efficiency would drop like a rock if their volume increased.

Bro, you are Orlando Magic fan, right, Dwight averaged 23 ppg on 63% TS and only reason why his TS% wasn't 68% or even 70% was because he shot 59% FTs. So if he could hit FTs at even respecful level, he would have been 28 ppg- 66% TS player and he would still NOT be great offensive player.
If there is anybody who with straight face can tell that Howard was good or great offensive player i don't really know what is there to say to him...

Our offense with Howard 10 shots a game was 4th best in nba ( 18 ppg ) , our offense with Howard averaging 13,5 shots a game dipped to 14#.

I don't find Zion bad, i just find his stats ugly inflated and overrated. Just like Trae averaging 30 never ment he is top 10 player nor Westbrooks triple double season ment he is top 5 in history. Numbers come from usage rate, if there is no winning that follows, they have no real value. Nobody would think Jordan is top 3 if he averaged 37 ppg and never passed first round of playoffs.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1848 » by MoMM » Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:17 pm

Knightro wrote:
MoMM wrote:Image


I looked both of them up before I said what I said.

Shaq's TS% from age 20 to age 34 (his prime) was .584 and he only topped 60% twice. Zion's at 65% this year.

Take into consideration how bad Shaq was in terms of FTs, if he was any better (just like Duncan, 70%), imagine how his scoring would improve.

But I am not saying Zion is a bad player at all, I just pointed some guys that came on top of my head, just to point that he isn't so unique in terms of HISTORY of NBA. He is very unique now and the Pels should take advantage of this, just throw the ball to him down low, if he gets double teams you need to have shooters around him like we had with D12/Lewis/Hedo/Nelson.

Also, it's good to mention that Shaq and Barkley were WAY ahead in terms of rebounding and overall defense and that seems something that Zion is lacking for now, but he can get better, I mean even Redick got better, remember?
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1849 » by Bergmaniac » Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:37 pm

pepe1991 wrote:If there is anybody who with straight face can tell that Howard was good or great offensive player i don't really know what is there to say to him...

So you don't think prime Dwight was at least a good offensive player? I very much disagree. He was scoring 20 PPG or more on great efficiency, he was drawing plenty of double teams and creating good looks for his teammates from 3, he was the best offensive rebounder in the game and a very good screener too. He also maintained or even increased his scoring average and efficiency in the playoffs, which is what you just said only cared about. Against the Cavs in 2009 he averaged 25.8 on amazing 68.7% TS, and was had a 113 ORTG (way above the league average at the time) against the league's third best defense. And that wasn't even his best offensive year, he clearly improved in the next two seasons.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1850 » by Knightro » Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:35 pm

pepe1991 wrote:[Bro, you are Orlando Magic fan, right, Dwight averaged 23 ppg on 63% TS and only reason why his TS% wasn't 68% or even 70% was because he shot 59% FTs. So if he could hit FTs at even respecful level, he would have been 28 ppg- 66% TS player and he would still NOT be great offensive player.
If there is anybody who with straight face can tell that Howard was good or great offensive player i don't really know what is there to say to him...


If Dwight Howard was an 80% free throw shooter instead of a sub 60% free throw shooter, he would have been a TREMENDOUSLY GREAT offensive player. In that era, he would have been considered one of the best players in the history of basketball and that in no way is an exaggeration.

He was already the best defensive big. He was already the best rebounding big. Add in great FT shooting to mix and you're talking about a guy who does everything an elite level except shoot with range, but on those Magic teams in that era that wouldn't have even mattered.

You're dramatically underselling what being 80% from line would have done for him and done for the Magic overall.

Dwight from 2008-2012 when he was at his absolute apex took 4,050 free throws and only made 2,343 of them. If he was an 80% free throw shooter, he would have made 3,240 of them.

That's 900 additional points. Divide that by the 375 games he played those years and that's 2.4 extra points per game strictly on made free throws versus missed free throws.

That doesn't even factor in how much different Dwight would have been used offensively had he been an 80% free throw shooter.

Stan would have had no hesitation whatsoever to give Dwight the basketball at any point during the game - ahead, behind, early in the game, crunch time - it wouldn't have mattered if the Magic knew he was 80% from the FT line.

That alone would have unlocked so many more ways for the Magic to attack teams. Combine that with how good they were defensively... man.

So much so that I firmly believe the Magic would have won at least one championship (and possibly multiple!) had Dwight simply been an 80% FT shooter.

Everything would have been different.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1851 » by Bensational » Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:43 pm

How can anyone make an argument that being the leagues best scorer from the most efficient spot on the court is a bad thing? If it’s not leading to winning basketball yet, it doesn’t make it a problem still, it just makes it part of the foundation of what will become winning basketball.

You’re not going to complain about having Curry hitting historically good efficiency from deep on some crazy shots and a high USG, so why complain about a post player? Feels like you’re becoming a slave to being part of the pace and space movement but with no plans for how to separate that team from the rest.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1852 » by Xatticus » Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:01 pm

Bensational wrote:How can anyone make an argument that being the leagues best scorer from the most efficient spot on the court is a bad thing? If it’s not leading to winning basketball yet, it doesn’t make it a problem still, it just makes it part of the foundation of what will become winning basketball.

You’re not going to complain about having Curry hitting historically good efficiency from deep on some crazy shots and a high USG, so why complain about a post player? Feels like you’re becoming a slave to being part of the pace and space movement but with no plans for how to separate that team from the rest.


He's either lost the plot or it's just trolling. Regardless of which, I'm not indulging it.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1853 » by SOUL » Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:10 pm

Dwight's no Vuc!
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1854 » by pepe1991 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:07 am

I'm done with this ridicilous Zion debate. I don't find him exiting nor amazing.
I highly doubt he will age with grace, i highly doubt he can stay healthy enough.

If i'm nba team that starts franchise, i'm taking Morant every day every night over Zion and twice in playoffs.
Morant equals competitive basketball and wins, Zion is freakshow, entertaining for casual fans who watch 1:30 min clips of a game and see him dunk in open space and think he is new Lebron based on box score.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1855 » by p0peye » Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:17 am

Here's a guy with great TS%, usage and PER: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/marjabo01.html

I'm not particularly opinionated about Zion, this was the first game I watched him and still not sure what to think of him.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1856 » by pepe1991 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:46 am

Thankfully, Avdija's injury is not as serious as it looked.
This season and amount of injuries flat out sucks.
NBA should be ashamed of schedule they put together. Players are not without sins, they didn't want to take paycuts for less games.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1857 » by tiderulz » Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:46 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Thankfully, Avdija's injury is not as serious as it looked.
This season and amount of injuries flat out sucks.
NBA should be ashamed of schedule they put together. Players are not without sins, they didn't want to take paycuts for less games.

makes you wonder if the pre-season camps actually better prepare the players for the season.

but also, basketball is a game with tall players moving around, injuries happen. Ive seen it in football too. some years, it seems like all sorts of players are going down with injuries, and other years not so much.
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1858 » by cedric76 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:53 pm

Different time, different rules, different opponents

Nowdays, players are weak, defense are weak

This is what happen when you want to glorify 3 points orgy
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1859 » by ogmagicfan » Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:31 pm

cedric76 wrote:Different time, different rules, different opponents

Nowdays, players are weak, defense are weak

This is what happen when you want to glorify 3 points orgy


Lol... you don’t think that’s just a little bit contradictory? If the game is more dependent on 3’s and less physical then wouldn’t that lead to less injuries if that’s the reason? :roll:
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Re: Around the NBA, 2019/20 Edition 

Post#1860 » by ogmagicfan » Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:35 pm

The condensed schedule is clearly influencing injuries we’re seeing, and not having a long enough gap from last year and no training camp.

However there has in general been a disturbing trend in more serious injuries happening this past decade. I read a good article on ESPN a while back that saw playing basketball heavily from an early age was deteriorating players bodies once they reached the league.

That along with players being bigger & heavily focusing on one sport and the same movements seems to also be of blame.

Article: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27125793/these-kids-ticking-bombs-threat-youth-basketball%3fplatform=amp

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