zaymon wrote:dsg2021 wrote:Knightro wrote:
I think this is oversimplifying things.
No one, to my knowledge, wants to trade Aaron Gordon away because they think he's a bad player or because they are upset at how he's playing in the preseason.
It's a 3-step thought process.
1. The Magic's backcourt is the biggest weakness on the team both in the short-term *and* long-term.
2. The Magic have much more front court depth than they did a year ago with the addition of Aminu and the impending addition next season of Okeke.
3. Assuming the Magic value Jonathan Isaac as much as people like Zach Lowe have said, Aaron Gordon is the Magic's most valuable trade asset that they would be willing to part with.
Essentially the idea is that the drop off from Gordon to Aminu (and later Okeke) wouldn't be nearly as severe as the potential upgrade whoever Gordon could bring in return would be over Augustin or Fournier.
I love and appreciate every one’s takes here in the end. We’re all Magic fans here.
For me, I see nothing wrong with AG, and 99% probably by Cliff’s backing, working his way slowly into a more 1st option type of possibility. We already know the other alternative; that unfortunate hate that Evan gets as pseudo-1st option even tho he’d probably be a team fav if he was actually a 3rd/4th option.
Cliff has already given a lot of cues which to me gave off the feeling that he saw last season as a failure. The offense was too horrible when it counted most.
So why is AG going 1-14 in preseason?
Because players like Oladipo did, and look how he turned out. Late bloomers are a real thing. Choosing to develop new aspects on a player, even painfully slow sometimes, is working in the last half decade.
Why is there so much guard-bias in these boards? Only “exciting” guards get way less hate.
Have you imagined the scenario where we don’t have AG anymore?
That force multiplier of having two beasts at the wing in AG and JI is completely gone. The perimeter defense crumbles, the identity of the team gone unless Okeke amazes quickly. These are two All NBA level defenders on the wings, and for our switches and team defense.
Cliff said it himself. Our top defense was not really complex in any way. We just have the pieces to keep people in front of us, to put long deflections, blocks, and successful recovers on the opposing team.
The best way to improve the team is not eating part of yourself, but to finally come to grips with the fact that you need to start double-thinking how if you see a BPA wing, how sure are you he’s going to pass the pecking order of Okeke, AG & JI’s careers? If you see a BPA big, how sure are you he’s going to pass the pecking order of Vooch, Bamba and Khem’s? ORL has made drafting for fit once or twice such a scenario that we can’t fail at it, because of the glaring need in it. It’s time to study SAS’s model of drafting for fit, and then pouncing on BPA when it’s worth it.
Besides drafting on a balance shifting a touch more for fit, because like SAS, our system will make their impact and trade value go up +250%;
I also like the idea of flipping 1st round draft picks away on someone you’re ready to go to bat with; someone you feel is like the next Doncic.
The other idea I like is a smaller trade than breaking apart some core piece like AG, JI and Bamba. Maybe you find the next Evan Fournier or Tobias in trade, who were low cost steals. Maybe you flip only one future first for a prospect who blows up big time in ORL (currently Fultz, but who could be next out there?
I respect the time and level of thought you gave to write your post but i dont agree with even one of your arguments.
1. Clifford is not building AG as a 1st option, quite opposite, he encourages him to focus on his defense and playmaking. Steve was very angry last year everytime AG tried to play isoball. Evan is better offensive option even with his eyes closed. AG had horrible preseason becouse his skillset is of a 4th option trying to be lead scorer which is just painful to watch.
2. Oladipo was on another level creating his own offense even being here.
3. I dont think our defense crumbles without Gordon becouse he is not elite team defender and post defender. There is visible difference between AG and JI
4. SAS can draft more for fit becouse they select at the end of a draft. Its totally different than drafting in the lottery.
5. You really think next Tobias and Fournier would move a needle? For me it would be the essence of mediocrity. Our whole team besides Vuc screams role players and secondary ball handlers.
The comparisons to Oladipo are being taken too literally. I also think about all of the players who started out slow, namely a lot of the PG's and ball handlers of the last decade. You have players like Lowry and Conley who were labeled busts for like the first 7 years of their career, MEM was taking forever to decide between them and Crittenton. You have D'Lo who was actually an inefficient, huge question mark bordering on disappointing, until last year, basically (first year he posted above a 15 PER Hollinger rating). I'd have to jump into researching and analyzing on a lot more player names if you'd really want, but I guess it's just my personal opinion that on average, young players are taking a little bit longer and longer to reach new levels. And it's not like I'm even searching for much more from AG. I feel like any more he improves is gravy. New levels of play don't have to be big PPG jumps. They can be nabbing 2 more APG, reducing charges 40% this year, finishing 30% more drives this year as probe dribbles back out to the key, instead of being predictably telepathic with a drive attempt or dish out.
And I've seen pretty much every Magic game like everyone else here. I know Oladipo was many steps above AG with offense in ORL, but again it's not a direct comparison. It was a case for development. I thought it was fairly obvious that I meant AG should have free rein in the preseason only. I don't know, maybe I need to reread my previous post, but in the reg season, I was under the assumption that Cliff would still dial down AG's free rein back to 3rd option type stuff, until he shows more little by little. Why? Because our offense is bad enough as it is; if AG was playing top 1 option, we'd might not hit 40 wins. Again, I thought this was a fairly obvious assumption. But at the same time, I don't know, but like.. I guess I imagine the coaching staff and FO has an inner strategy in mind when they see their team, because at the same time, when you look at how bad our offense is, wouldn't you want to dial up AG's offense from last year like +10% to +20%? See how he does over time? Everyone knows ORL has no offense, so why not try to develop a potential option?
I guess in a one sentence summary, it's let AG go 1-14 every preseason game, then maybe dial up his offense from last year +10-20% to see how he does over time. I think everyone is getting caught up with "finalized statements" but maybe I was the only one speaking in a preseason context. I think the only clear thing is that everyone working for ORL knows how glaringly deficient our offense is, Cliff especially, and I for one support him stretching his development of players like AG and JI +10-15% more than they probably should if it was a top 3 seed team with 3-4 All Stars. And if its preseason, they better damn as well be going for 14+ shots, 1-14 or 2-14 be damned. The team's capped out offensively, unless a young player breaks that. (Side note: Also possible Vooch learns from his playoffs and bad games, and becomes the same workhorse in the playoffs as in the reg season. That would be a small boost in the offensive ceiling of the team too.)
You don't seem to find AG an elite defender, that's okay. Opinions differ, but I guess you want to gloss over his passing ability? His set shooting ability off the catch, and as a 3rd-4th option? As a cutter? If he does this at a "average to good" level of defense instead of "elite", then what is the problem with him? He's cheaper and more productive and versatile than his peers in similar contracts?
Again it's difficult to analyze this, about the SAS drafting for BPA or fit. And you could say they draft for BPA as much as fit too, it's having a balance with it. There are stashes and picks SAS's made that never come over, or never pan out. And yet, when they draft for fit in the mix, it fits their system to a T. I have made a past thread analyzing FO's personalities/strength across the league, and one type of team are those who consistently draft really well, like SAS and DEN. And they're not really missing any BPA All Stars behind them; but they do consistently beat the other teams by (as I see it) imagining drafted players strictly inside of the context of their own team systems, and not inside of the NBA. And SAS still traded up for the BPA they knew was worth it (Kawhi), or tanked in the year(s) that they knew was worth it (Duncan). There's no black and white answer, it's about being smart enough to grade a prospect compared to the last 3 years along with the next 3 years ahead, so you can pull the trigger with as little regret as possible when you see a Doncic. Balancing BPA and Fit with what shakes loose during draft night.
I think a Tobias or Evan type hit of a trade would move the needle from 7th-8th seed to 4th-6th, and open the door for free agencies to be drawn to Orlando, or maybe finally a 'lateral-consolidation type trade' that you most of guys seem to want (ex., AG and future 1sts). Because then at this point, you're stocked with a truly good amount of good and promising players. It's all an asset building game imho. Example, all of a sudden, that trade for Beal doesn't gut the team now, and all of a sudden it doesn't feel like a small jump up from 10th seed to 6th seed for Beal, but something more. Cheers.
