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Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread

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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#581 » by PrimeThyme » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:57 am

pepe1991 wrote:I just don't see upside in drafting center in lottery nowdays.

I think In theory, the perceived upside for Bamba was Gobert. Though Rudy didn't go in the lottery, if he were to come out today he would easily be a top 10 pick and rightfully so imo. His skillset is extremely valuable in today's NBA and it's my belief that he, not Mitchell, is the real key to Utah's success.

I think teams looked at Bamba and saw the wingspan, shotblocking, and the defensive toolbox and thought he was somebody they could mold into the next Rudy. However, I think what I and teams in general misjudged was just how many elite defensive intangibles that Rudy has which just can't be replicated even if all the physical measurements line up.

The instinct, timing, and overall IQ is just on another level. While Bamba has improved, if he doesn't get at least close to the level of defender that Gobert is it will be extremely tough to justify him as a top 10 pick, but I still see the reasoning for taking him based on the potential.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#582 » by Knightro » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:04 pm

PrimeThyme wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:I just don't see upside in drafting center in lottery nowdays.

I think In theory, the perceived upside for Bamba was Gobert. Though Rudy didn't go in the lottery, if he were to come out today he would easily be a top 10 pick and rightfully so imo. His skillset is extremely valuable in today's NBA and it's my belief that he, not Mitchell, is the real key to Utah's success.

I think teams looked at Bamba and saw the wingspan, shotblocking, and the defensive toolbox and thought he was somebody they could mold into the next Rudy. However, I think what I and teams in general misjudged was just how many elite defensive intangibles that Rudy has which just can't be replicated even if all the physical measurements line up.

The instinct, timing, and overall IQ is just on another level. While Bamba has improved, if he doesn't get at least close to the level of defender that Gobert is it will be extremely tough to justify him as a top 10 pick, but I still see the reasoning for taking him based on the potential.


This doesn’t happen for all players, but in theory Bamba’s defensive awareness will improve with the more experience he gets. I'm hopeful that the more he plays the more he will develop an understanding what he needs to do and where he needs to be to effectively defend moves and countermoves.

His shot blocking timing and instincts are actually already really good. He blocked 4.8 shots per 100 possessions this year at age 21 which is as good as Gobert at the same age (Gobert didn't play 500 NBA minutes as a 21 year old).

Qualified players who blocked 4.8/per 100 during or before their age 21 season.

Mitchell Robinson
Mo Bamba

Qualified players who grabbed 16.8 REB/per 100 during or before their age 21 season.

Andre Drummond x3
Moses Malone x2
Dwight Howard x2
Shaquille O'Neal
Jarrett Allen
Nikola Jokic
Karl Anthony Towns
Mo Bamba

The massive difference between Bamba and Gobert (and other guys on the two lists) and the biggest red flag for me is still Mo’s low motor and overall lack of hustle and effort. Bamba unfortunately negates his own physical gifts a lot of the time by just flat out not playing very hard.

All that said...

Bamba has high end NBA ability already as a shot blocker. He has very good NBA ability as a rebounder already. His shooting range is developing nicely already. There’s no reason he shouldn’t be a good starting center in the league soon if he can figure out a way to give more consistent effort.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#583 » by jezzerinho » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:25 pm

I was never a big fan of Bamba's for Orlando but as soon as I was ready to really dub him a bust, he started showing something. It's still a lot more underwhelming than you'd want, but the effort level did seem to tick upward and the stats improved. I don't think the scheme suits his strengths hugely, but I find him lacking in so many areas that any hope of him being a top player will be realised during his second contract and not with Orlando probably.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#584 » by j-ragg » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:36 pm

jezzerinho wrote:I was never a big fan of Bamba's for Orlando but as soon as I was ready to really dub him a bust, he started showing something. It's still a lot more underwhelming than you'd want, but the effort level did seem to tick upward and the stats improved. I don't think the scheme suits his strengths hugely, but I find him lacking in so many areas that any hope of him being a top player will be realised during his second contract and not with Orlando probably.

I really didn’t want us to draft him. Still think it was a dumb pick. But he has made strides for sure. Already about league average from 3 is huge for him.

I agree about motor concerns like everyone else but the fact he can protect the rim so well while looking like he doesn’t care half the time is exciting if he gets his body to the point he can go balls out.

He seems like he’ll be a prototypical 3+D low usage center every team with a star creator would like. I agree the odds are he won’t reach his potential in Orlando. Part of it is modern impatience with prospects taking a while to develop (league wide) but also this idea to only draft guys who are years away from being ready.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#585 » by PrimeThyme » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:05 pm

Knightro wrote:This doesn’t happen for all players, but in theory Bamba’s defensive awareness will improve with the more experience he gets. I'm hopeful that the more he plays the more he will develop an understanding what he needs to do and where he needs to be to effectively defend moves and countermoves.

The massive difference between Bamba and Gobert (and other guys on the two lists) and the biggest red flag for me is still Mo’s low motor and overall lack of hustle and effort. Bamba unfortunately negates his own physical gifts a lot of the time by just flat out not playing very hard.

To a point, I agree, but I do think there is a ceiling. We know from watching a defender like Isaac that there is some things you just can't teach. I believe that Gobert has that "it" factor as well. Along with some other of the top defenders in the league. While I agree that Bamba has improved in this category and will continue too, I think my main point is that my hopes of him developing into a Gobert caliber defender and really justifying that 6th overall selection is shattered.

Yeah, the low motor and lack of effort go into some of those intangible things that are really hard to try and teach a player at this stage. I quite honestly overlooked it pre-draft. The concerns were there and I noticed it from a lot of the predraft stuff I watched from him, but I was holding out hope that it was just a case of a high lottery selection playing on a not very competitive NIT bound collegiate team and was coasting a bit.

I will say that as his play picked up this season, his effort did too. He had some stretches that made me think he could develop into a quality starter center at some point as well, but time will tell. My expectations have shifted but I'm still hopeful.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#586 » by cedric76 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:58 pm

PrimeThyme wrote:
Knightro wrote:This doesn’t happen for all players, but in theory Bamba’s defensive awareness will improve with the more experience he gets. I'm hopeful that the more he plays the more he will develop an understanding what he needs to do and where he needs to be to effectively defend moves and countermoves.

The massive difference between Bamba and Gobert (and other guys on the two lists) and the biggest red flag for me is still Mo’s low motor and overall lack of hustle and effort. Bamba unfortunately negates his own physical gifts a lot of the time by just flat out not playing very hard.

To a point, I agree, but I do think there is a ceiling. We know from watching a defender like Isaac that there is some things you just can't teach. I believe that Gobert has that "it" factor as well. Along with some other of the top defenders in the league. While I agree that Bamba has improved in this category and will continue too, I think my main point is that my hopes of him developing into a Gobert caliber defender and really justifying that 6th overall selection is shattered.

Yeah, the low motor and lack of effort go into some of those intangible things that are really hard to try and teach a player at this stage. I quite honestly overlooked it pre-draft. The concerns were there and I noticed it from a lot of the predraft stuff I watched from him, but I was holding out hope that it was just a case of a high lottery selection playing on a not very competitive NIT bound collegiate team and was coasting a bit.

I will say that as his play picked up this season, his effort did too. He had some stretches that made me think he could develop into a quality starter center at some point as well, but time will tell. My expectations have shifted but I'm still hopeful.


I think some of you forget how rudy was at 21
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#587 » by Bakomagic » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:35 pm

cedric76 wrote:
PrimeThyme wrote:
Knightro wrote:This doesn’t happen for all players, but in theory Bamba’s defensive awareness will improve with the more experience he gets. I'm hopeful that the more he plays the more he will develop an understanding what he needs to do and where he needs to be to effectively defend moves and countermoves.

The massive difference between Bamba and Gobert (and other guys on the two lists) and the biggest red flag for me is still Mo’s low motor and overall lack of hustle and effort. Bamba unfortunately negates his own physical gifts a lot of the time by just flat out not playing very hard.

To a point, I agree, but I do think there is a ceiling. We know from watching a defender like Isaac that there is some things you just can't teach. I believe that Gobert has that "it" factor as well. Along with some other of the top defenders in the league. While I agree that Bamba has improved in this category and will continue too, I think my main point is that my hopes of him developing into a Gobert caliber defender and really justifying that 6th overall selection is shattered.

Yeah, the low motor and lack of effort go into some of those intangible things that are really hard to try and teach a player at this stage. I quite honestly overlooked it pre-draft. The concerns were there and I noticed it from a lot of the predraft stuff I watched from him, but I was holding out hope that it was just a case of a high lottery selection playing on a not very competitive NIT bound collegiate team and was coasting a bit.

I will say that as his play picked up this season, his effort did too. He had some stretches that made me think he could develop into a quality starter center at some point as well, but time will tell. My expectations have shifted but I'm still hopeful.


I think some of you forget how rudy was at 21


I don't remember, but looking on basketball reference, at 21 Gobert played only 45 games started 0, averaged 9 minutes, 3.4 Rebounds, 2.3 points, 0.9 blocks.

Bamba Age 21

60 games played 0 started: 14 minutes a game, 5.5 points, 5.0 Rebounds, 1.4 Blocks and as a bonus shot .356 from 3.

I feel like we Bamba is underrated a little here and definitely by other teams fans. He's playing behind a fringe All Star Caliber Center who is in his prime ! Bamba has improved his defensive awareness and shooting this year and will continue to improve coinciding with Vuc's deescalating contract. I believe we will need to re-up Bamba he same year that Vuc contract expires, so he may be right on track.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#588 » by MagicMatic » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:36 pm

PrimeThyme wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:I just don't see upside in drafting center in lottery nowdays.

I think In theory, the perceived upside for Bamba was Gobert. Though Rudy didn't go in the lottery, if he were to come out today he would easily be a top 10 pick and rightfully so imo. His skillset is extremely valuable in today's NBA and it's my belief that he, not Mitchell, is the real key to Utah's success.

I think teams looked at Bamba and saw the wingspan, shotblocking, and the defensive toolbox and thought he was somebody they could mold into the next Rudy. However, I think what I and teams in general misjudged was just how many elite defensive intangibles that Rudy has which just can't be replicated even if all the physical measurements line up.

The instinct, timing, and overall IQ is just on another level. While Bamba has improved, if he doesn't get at least close to the level of defender that Gobert is it will be extremely tough to justify him as a top 10 pick, but I still see the reasoning for taking him based on the potential.


Selecting a Center like Gobert makes sense when you have a go-to player before not after you make that kind of pick. If we are making a selection at #6, and relying on a high usage C for 30mpg, you would expect some kind of plan in place. These guys aren’t “building” a roster, they are trying as hard as possible to remain competitive without having a real plan or blueprint.

I wouldn’t call the Bamba pick a “waste”, but it still made no sense in the context of the roster or contracts being handed out.

The FO is selling “we want to remain as competitive as possible”, but are making draft selections that say “we are planning 5-8 years into the future”. Neither are really true or are being executed correctly.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#589 » by Knightro » Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:31 pm

MagicMatic wrote:Selecting a Center like Gobert makes sense when you have a go-to player before not after you make that kind of pick. If we are making a selection at #6, and relying on a high usage C for 30mpg, you would expect some kind of plan in place. These guys aren’t “building” a roster, they are trying as hard as possible to remain competitive without having a real plan or blueprint.

I wouldn’t call the Bamba pick a “waste”, but it still made no sense in the context of the roster or contracts being handed out.

The FO is selling “we want to remain as competitive as possible”, but are making draft selections that say “we are planning 5-8 years into the future”. Neither are really true or are being executed correctly.


I genuinely believe the plan on draft night in 2018 was for Bamba to spend his rookie year as Vucevic's backup and then become the Magic's starting center in the 2019-2020 season.

IMO that plan didn't change until Magic exceeded expectations in last year's surprise playoff and Vucevic had an all-star season out of nowhere.

We can and obviously will debate the merits of the decision to double down on an overachieving 42-win roster, but I really do believe Weltman and Hammond felt they owed it to Clifford, his staff, and all the players to see if they could build off the success they had in the second half of last year and make the jump from low 40s wins to competing for homecourt in the first round.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#590 » by J the Drafter » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:10 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
PrimeThyme wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:I just don't see upside in drafting center in lottery nowdays.

I think In theory, the perceived upside for Bamba was Gobert. Though Rudy didn't go in the lottery, if he were to come out today he would easily be a top 10 pick and rightfully so imo. His skillset is extremely valuable in today's NBA and it's my belief that he, not Mitchell, is the real key to Utah's success.

I think teams looked at Bamba and saw the wingspan, shotblocking, and the defensive toolbox and thought he was somebody they could mold into the next Rudy. However, I think what I and teams in general misjudged was just how many elite defensive intangibles that Rudy has which just can't be replicated even if all the physical measurements line up.

The instinct, timing, and overall IQ is just on another level. While Bamba has improved, if he doesn't get at least close to the level of defender that Gobert is it will be extremely tough to justify him as a top 10 pick, but I still see the reasoning for taking him based on the potential.


Selecting a Center like Gobert makes sense when you have a go-to player before not after you make that kind of pick. If we are making a selection at #6, and relying on a high usage C for 30mpg, you would expect some kind of plan in place. These guys aren’t “building” a roster, they are trying as hard as possible to remain competitive without having a real plan or blueprint.

I wouldn’t call the Bamba pick a “waste”, but it still made no sense in the context of the roster or contracts being handed out.

The FO is selling “we want to remain as competitive as possible”, but are making draft selections that say “we are planning 5-8 years into the future”. Neither are really true or are being executed correctly.

You can’t hold up every other aspect of roster building in order to get an isolation scorer. Nor should you acquire lesser talent simply because it’s more offensively minded. The team shouldn’t wait on a scoring before it builds for defense.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#591 » by drsd » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:35 pm

Bakomagic wrote:I like Brandon Clarke and Thyblle more right now. Although I'd love to take a shot on NAW and have him replace DJ on our second unit. Have him play the role he had in summer league. If he becomes more similar to summer league NAW we can put him in the SL next to Fultz after Fournier's contract ends.


I agree with your views as a discussion point. And it gets to the issue that BPA is not a simple, singular measure.

It also makes a point that the Okee-fans really are looking to Hope more than Fact.


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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#592 » by zaymon » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:44 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
PrimeThyme wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:I just don't see upside in drafting center in lottery nowdays.

I think In theory, the perceived upside for Bamba was Gobert. Though Rudy didn't go in the lottery, if he were to come out today he would easily be a top 10 pick and rightfully so imo. His skillset is extremely valuable in today's NBA and it's my belief that he, not Mitchell, is the real key to Utah's success.

I think teams looked at Bamba and saw the wingspan, shotblocking, and the defensive toolbox and thought he was somebody they could mold into the next Rudy. However, I think what I and teams in general misjudged was just how many elite defensive intangibles that Rudy has which just can't be replicated even if all the physical measurements line up.

The instinct, timing, and overall IQ is just on another level. While Bamba has improved, if he doesn't get at least close to the level of defender that Gobert is it will be extremely tough to justify him as a top 10 pick, but I still see the reasoning for taking him based on the potential.


Selecting a Center like Gobert makes sense when you have a go-to player before not after you make that kind of pick. If we are making a selection at #6, and relying on a high usage C for 30mpg, you would expect some kind of plan in place. These guys aren’t “building” a roster, they are trying as hard as possible to remain competitive without having a real plan or blueprint.

I wouldn’t call the Bamba pick a “waste”, but it still made no sense in the context of the roster or contracts being handed out.

The FO is selling “we want to remain as competitive as possible”, but are making draft selections that say “we are planning 5-8 years into the future”. Neither are really true or are being executed correctly.

I think optimally you draft a raw prospect first and then you aquire a star when your prospects are ready not the other way around.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#593 » by MagicMatic » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:44 pm

J the Drafter wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
PrimeThyme wrote:I think In theory, the perceived upside for Bamba was Gobert. Though Rudy didn't go in the lottery, if he were to come out today he would easily be a top 10 pick and rightfully so imo. His skillset is extremely valuable in today's NBA and it's my belief that he, not Mitchell, is the real key to Utah's success.

I think teams looked at Bamba and saw the wingspan, shotblocking, and the defensive toolbox and thought he was somebody they could mold into the next Rudy. However, I think what I and teams in general misjudged was just how many elite defensive intangibles that Rudy has which just can't be replicated even if all the physical measurements line up.

The instinct, timing, and overall IQ is just on another level. While Bamba has improved, if he doesn't get at least close to the level of defender that Gobert is it will be extremely tough to justify him as a top 10 pick, but I still see the reasoning for taking him based on the potential.


Selecting a Center like Gobert makes sense when you have a go-to player before not after you make that kind of pick. If we are making a selection at #6, and relying on a high usage C for 30mpg, you would expect some kind of plan in place. These guys aren’t “building” a roster, they are trying as hard as possible to remain competitive without having a real plan or blueprint.

I wouldn’t call the Bamba pick a “waste”, but it still made no sense in the context of the roster or contracts being handed out.

The FO is selling “we want to remain as competitive as possible”, but are making draft selections that say “we are planning 5-8 years into the future”. Neither are really true or are being executed correctly.

You can’t hold up every other aspect of roster building in order to get an isolation scorer. Nor should you acquire lesser talent simply because it’s more offensively minded. The team shouldn’t wait on a scoring before it builds for defense.


What’s “every other aspect”? You mean not drafting a project center and resigning your highest usage player of the same lesser value position to a 4 year deal?

Also, who says it needs to be an “isolation scorer”? You make it sound like there weren't glaring holes in the roster prior to the draft.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#594 » by MagicMatic » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:50 pm

zaymon wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
PrimeThyme wrote:I think In theory, the perceived upside for Bamba was Gobert. Though Rudy didn't go in the lottery, if he were to come out today he would easily be a top 10 pick and rightfully so imo. His skillset is extremely valuable in today's NBA and it's my belief that he, not Mitchell, is the real key to Utah's success.

I think teams looked at Bamba and saw the wingspan, shotblocking, and the defensive toolbox and thought he was somebody they could mold into the next Rudy. However, I think what I and teams in general misjudged was just how many elite defensive intangibles that Rudy has which just can't be replicated even if all the physical measurements line up.

The instinct, timing, and overall IQ is just on another level. While Bamba has improved, if he doesn't get at least close to the level of defender that Gobert is it will be extremely tough to justify him as a top 10 pick, but I still see the reasoning for taking him based on the potential.


Selecting a Center like Gobert makes sense when you have a go-to player before not after you make that kind of pick. If we are making a selection at #6, and relying on a high usage C for 30mpg, you would expect some kind of plan in place. These guys aren’t “building” a roster, they are trying as hard as possible to remain competitive without having a real plan or blueprint.

I wouldn’t call the Bamba pick a “waste”, but it still made no sense in the context of the roster or contracts being handed out.

The FO is selling “we want to remain as competitive as possible”, but are making draft selections that say “we are planning 5-8 years into the future”. Neither are really true or are being executed correctly.

I think optimally you draft a raw prospect first and then you aquire a star when your prospects are ready not the other way around.


Spending a high lottery pick on a glorified luxury bench project when you have other larger concerns seems like a bad idea. How will Orlando “acquire a star”? Draft or trade, take your pick. If you think Orlando is landing this type of player anywhere but the draft, with the assets at hand, then there is nothing left to discuss.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#595 » by Knightro » Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:25 am

MagicMatic wrote:You’re missing the point. You don’t spend a high lottery pick on a glorified luxury bench project when you have other larger concerns.


Sometimes plans change as circumstances change.

Vucevic was coming off a year where he put up a middling 16 PPG, 9 RPG on a 25 win team and was heading into the last year of his contract when the Magic drafted Mo Bamba in 2018.

There is just no possible way that the plan was to resign Vucevic when they made the decision to pick Bamba. I refuse to believe they picked a center at 6 if they planned to resign their veteran center to a 4 year contract. That's completely illogical.

But fast forward a year and Vucevic unexpectedly has the best year of his career by a massive margin and the Magic win 17 more games that they did the year before. So the plans changed.

I think Weltman and Hammond, unfortunately, bought into the hype of Vucevic and Ross' career years and last year's late season playoff push and opted to run it back. But considered how unexpected both of those things were, I can't imagine they were the original plan.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#596 » by Bensational » Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:51 am

Knightro wrote:I think Weltman and Hammond, unfortunately, bought into the hype of Vucevic and Ross' career years and last year's late season playoff push and opted to run it back. But considered how unexpected both of those things were, I can't imagine they were the original plan.


I wonder what the plan would have been had they not committed to that?

Surely they shipped Vuc and Ross around the trade deadline last season and saw neither were garnering much value on the trade market. So either they get shipped for a small return or we let them walk. What next?

Birch/Bamba
Gordon/Okeke
Isaac/Iwundu
Fournier/MCW
Fultz/DJ

Is there much chance the team looks much different to that? Let's imagine Aminu doesn't join if we don't look like we're an obvious playoff team. We'd have $20M in cap space, but still no clear foundation piece.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#597 » by Knightro » Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:21 am

Bensational wrote:I wonder what the plan would have been had they not committed to that?

Surely they shipped Vuc and Ross around the trade deadline last season and saw neither were garnering much value on the trade market. So either they get shipped for a small return or we let them walk. What next?

Birch/Bamba
Gordon/Okeke
Isaac/Iwundu
Fournier/MCW
Fultz/DJ

Is there much chance the team looks much different to that? Let's imagine Aminu doesn't join if we don't look like we're an obvious playoff team. We'd have $20M in cap space, but still no clear foundation piece.


They definitely would have been able to move Ross at the deadline in 18-19. The rumor is the Sixers would have taken just Ross for Fultz instead of Simmons and the OKC 1st. So they probably would have done that and kept the OKC pick as an asset.

I figure they'd have just let Vucevic walk.

They wouldn't have signed Aminu. They wouldn't have resigned MCW. They probably keep Birch on a similar contract and sign a some cheapish PF depth to a short-term deal like Trey Lyles.

Another thing to consider, if the Magic were bad enough in 18-19 to trade Ross and let Vucevic walk, then their 2019 draft pick would have been much higher than where it ended up being. So instead of drafting Okeke at 16, they'd have been picking someone like Garland, Culver or White in that 5-8 range.

So you're looking at something like...

G: Fultz, Augustin
G: Fournier, White
F: Gordon, Iwundu
F: Isaac, Lyles
C: Bamba, Birch

or

G: Fultz, Garland (Augustin traded)
G: Fournier, Frazier
F: Gordon, Iwundu
F: Isaac, Lyles
C: Bamba, Birch

or

G: Fultz, Augustin
G: Fournier, Iwundu
F: Gordon, Culver
F: Isaac, Lyles
C: Bamba, Birch
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#598 » by Bensational » Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:38 am

Knightro wrote:
Bensational wrote:I wonder what the plan would have been had they not committed to that?

Surely they shipped Vuc and Ross around the trade deadline last season and saw neither were garnering much value on the trade market. So either they get shipped for a small return or we let them walk. What next?

Birch/Bamba
Gordon/Okeke
Isaac/Iwundu
Fournier/MCW
Fultz/DJ

Is there much chance the team looks much different to that? Let's imagine Aminu doesn't join if we don't look like we're an obvious playoff team. We'd have $20M in cap space, but still no clear foundation piece.


They definitely would have been able to move Ross at the deadline in 18-19. The rumor is the Sixers would have taken just Ross for Fultz instead of Simmons and the OKC 1st. So they probably would have done that and kept the OKC pick as an asset.

I figure they'd have just let Vucevic walk.

They wouldn't have signed Aminu. They wouldn't have resigned MCW. They probably keep Birch on a similar contract and sign a some cheapish PF depth to a short-term deal like Trey Lyles.

Another thing to consider, if the Magic were bad enough in 18-19 to trade Ross and let Vucevic walk, then their 2019 draft pick would have been much higher than where it ended up being. So instead of drafting Okeke at 16, they'd have been picking someone like Garland, Culver or White in that 5-8 range.

So you're looking at something like...

G: Fultz, Augustin
G: Fournier, White
F: Gordon, Iwundu
F: Isaac, Lyles
C: Bamba, Birch

or

G: Fultz, Garland (Augustin traded)
G: Fournier, Frazier
F: Gordon, Iwundu
F: Isaac, Lyles
C: Bamba, Birch

or

G: Fultz, Augustin
G: Fournier, Iwundu
F: Gordon, Culver
F: Isaac, Lyles
C: Bamba, Birch


I think WeHam might've moved the pick for some more young veterans to help Cliff stay sane. In the above scenario I could see WeHam pushing to find a veteran leader like DeRozan.

Though I would have loved to have seen how the above team shook out over extended play. I wonder if Fournier could've played well enough to keep us in a similar position record wise.
zaymon
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#599 » by zaymon » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:17 am

MagicMatic wrote:
zaymon wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Selecting a Center like Gobert makes sense when you have a go-to player before not after you make that kind of pick. If we are making a selection at #6, and relying on a high usage C for 30mpg, you would expect some kind of plan in place. These guys aren’t “building” a roster, they are trying as hard as possible to remain competitive without having a real plan or blueprint.

I wouldn’t call the Bamba pick a “waste”, but it still made no sense in the context of the roster or contracts being handed out.

The FO is selling “we want to remain as competitive as possible”, but are making draft selections that say “we are planning 5-8 years into the future”. Neither are really true or are being executed correctly.

I think optimally you draft a raw prospect first and then you aquire a star when your prospects are ready not the other way around.


Spending a high lottery pick on a glorified luxury bench project when you have other larger concerns seems like a bad idea. How will Orlando “acquire a star”? Draft or trade, take your pick. If you think Orlando is landing this type of player anywhere but the draft, with the assets at hand, then there is nothing left to discuss.

Well our bad, we drafted Bamba and the obvious choice was a star, silly us. I dont get your logic, first you write about drafting for need, and then you write about drafting a star. Sadly those two things rarely go along. We picked 6th in a five player draft, thats what happened to us year after year after year.
I was never a Bamba proponent, but i can see the logic behind the pick. If you dont see a lead ball handler at your pick ( zion, doncic, young, morant), you go for potential elite role players ( Isaac, Okeke, Bamba), rather than limited scorers not good enough to be a leader on a contender ( smith jr, naw, knox). I am not even that sold on Shai yet, until now he played in a perfect system, with multilple great ball handlers and shooters. I remember before the draft there was a rumour we want him. Personally i wanted Carter and hated Bamba for his motor and lack of feel for the game.
Bold Predictions:
1. Deandre Ayton biggest disappointment of 2018 draft.
2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
pepe1991
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#600 » by pepe1991 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:25 am

Knightro wrote:
PrimeThyme wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:I just don't see upside in drafting center in lottery nowdays.

I think In theory, the perceived upside for Bamba was Gobert. Though Rudy didn't go in the lottery, if he were to come out today he would easily be a top 10 pick and rightfully so imo. His skillset is extremely valuable in today's NBA and it's my belief that he, not Mitchell, is the real key to Utah's success.

I think teams looked at Bamba and saw the wingspan, shotblocking, and the defensive toolbox and thought he was somebody they could mold into the next Rudy. However, I think what I and teams in general misjudged was just how many elite defensive intangibles that Rudy has which just can't be replicated even if all the physical measurements line up.

The instinct, timing, and overall IQ is just on another level. While Bamba has improved, if he doesn't get at least close to the level of defender that Gobert is it will be extremely tough to justify him as a top 10 pick, but I still see the reasoning for taking him based on the potential.


This doesn’t happen for all players, but in theory Bamba’s defensive awareness will improve with the more experience he gets. I'm hopeful that the more he plays the more he will develop an understanding what he needs to do and where he needs to be to effectively defend moves and countermoves.

His shot blocking timing and instincts are actually already really good. He blocked 4.8 shots per 100 possessions this year at age 21 which is as good as Gobert at the same age (Gobert didn't play 500 NBA minutes as a 21 year old).

Qualified players who blocked 4.8/per 100 during or before their age 21 season.

Mitchell Robinson
Mo Bamba

Qualified players who grabbed 16.8 REB/per 100 during or before their age 21 season.

Andre Drummond x3
Moses Malone x2
Dwight Howard x2
Shaquille O'Neal
Jarrett Allen
Nikola Jokic
Karl Anthony Towns
Mo Bamba

The massive difference between Bamba and Gobert (and other guys on the two lists) and the biggest red flag for me is still Mo’s low motor and overall lack of hustle and effort. Bamba unfortunately negates his own physical gifts a lot of the time by just flat out not playing very hard.

All that said...

Bamba has high end NBA ability already as a shot blocker. He has very good NBA ability as a rebounder already. His shooting range is developing nicely already. There’s no reason he shouldn’t be a good starting center in the league soon if he can figure out a way to give more consistent effort.


Lot of this numbers really don't mean much because they are measured in vacuum datas that always play in heavy favor for players who don't play much.
For 2 years in a row Mo Bamba averages 6,5 fouls per 100 possessions and per 36 min, he is also heavy -4,8 fouls a game.
There are many nba centers with solid tool-box that simply do not have talent, mobility and durability of Gobert. If you look at guys like Ian Mahinmi, Thon Maker, Capela, Ayton, Thomas Bryant, McGee, WSC... lot of them are actually strong, fast and athletic, yet nobody comes close to impact that Gobert has. And non of them is actually worth taking in lottery.

Talking about his jumpshot, while we talk about player who played 107 games, made 58 threes on 33% , while being wide open on 85% of them, and who got 1 three point shot contested in his nba career ( literally, one), and who can't even pass 65% on FT line, while shoots 34% from mid range as " shooting range that develops nicely" is borderline crazy talk to me.

What's actually bizzare and depressing is that he shoots 34,9% from pick&rolls when he rolls and brings 0,82 points per possession when he does it.
That's your 6'11 center with 8 foot wingspan that can almost dunk a ball without jumping, missing 65% of shots where he needs to do between 0 to 2 steps and dunk. To comparison to Gobert, he shoots 64% from same plays.

As for his motor, it's not just motor, it's understanding of basketball all together. Mcgee had nice motor, but was always too dumb to play more. We all know basketball defense in 99% of cases is not about shotblocking, rather making right decisions that will not put you in position where your center needs to save you. Tim Duncan couldn't jump over phonebook last 5 years of his career and was easly one of best defensive centers out there based on intelligence alone.

And given where Magic took him, being in objective range of landing Doncic or Young, and passing on SGA, passing on Porter Jr ( both could have been traded down for ) , and having Mitchell Robinson being BETTER player than Bamba, while providing everything Bamba provides - while being taken 36th, really makes whole logic behind that draft night head scratcher.

And even if Bamba was that new Gobert ( while they simply turned blind eye on everything negative reported about him), it would still not make that much difference because what makes Gobert - Gobert is fact they don't really need him to do much on offense rather just set picks and roll off, as they have Ingles, Mitchell, Conley, in past Rubio, now even Bogdanovic...
So even in Jazz vacuum, Gobert MIGHT be the most important player ,but without Mitchell and supporting offensive cast, they would still be lottery team .
"A straight path never leads anywhere except to the objective."
Andre Gide

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