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Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread

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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#881 » by Bensational » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:42 pm

One other thing about Bamba - remember this is his 2nd season. In Gordon's 2nd season all he did was crash boards and get putbacks. Since then he's become someone who can handle the ball, has become a great passer and facilitator and has improved his perimeter shooting. And he's still improving.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#882 » by Bensational » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:46 pm

zaymon wrote:
The Effect wrote:
zaymon wrote:Any reasonable ones beyond Beal, Booker, George Harden and Holiday ? Becouse i would rather have Giannis than Isaac and it doeant mean anything


It sucks, coming into this season, i actually liked evan and was hoping with improved play from the PG position (fultz vs DJ), that he would play more into the system and would be more team ball, but it seems hes just trying to get his payday and so he went even more to buddyball with Vuc this year. Hopefully this is the last stretch of games for him on the magic

I dont know that will be able to add a top 10-15SG this year unless we are trading our pick+AG. While i (unfortunately) think we move AG, i dont know if its going to be enough to get a Beal or Booker etc. I think what we are going to have to do is draft a guy at 15 (Josh Green is my bet) and then sign a young FA with potential (im hoping for Damyean Dotson from the knicks), and hope to hit on atleast one of them.

I checked Fournier passing stats and he makes significantly less passes than other starters, but his assist to pass % is best on the team, while also he is second on the team in hockey assists. To me that paints a player who is score first guard, with above average vision good passing technique, decisive in his actions, but also willing to move the ball when he sees the opening. His first option is to score and I think that mentality is the reason for his spectacular efectiveness and i dont blame him for it. Players with similar pass count per game are Redick, Jaylen Brown, Malik Beasley, Dillon Brooks, KCP, Tim Hardaway so he fits into shooters passing profile BUT he is the most accurate passer by a mile to all these players. Fournier had higher usage than Gordon every year except 2017-2018. That was our most tragic year, when we sucked the most. Giving Gordon the ball equals losing so i am not suprised Fournier first option is to pass to Vucevic and second is to score.


Lol. Last year was Evan's worst season. He was terrible on all fronts, all season long. That was also the team's best season. Hmmm...

This season Fournier is shooting better and has taken on a larger role, but we're a worse team as a result. Hmmm...

You work so hard to find a way to take a shot at Gordon in everything you say but then you go and give glowing appraisals to Fournier and Vuc who have carried us to losing season after losing season as our two highest usage players. It's time for a new agenda mate.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#883 » by zaymon » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:05 pm

Bensational wrote:
zaymon wrote:
The Effect wrote:
It sucks, coming into this season, i actually liked evan and was hoping with improved play from the PG position (fultz vs DJ), that he would play more into the system and would be more team ball, but it seems hes just trying to get his payday and so he went even more to buddyball with Vuc this year. Hopefully this is the last stretch of games for him on the magic

I dont know that will be able to add a top 10-15SG this year unless we are trading our pick+AG. While i (unfortunately) think we move AG, i dont know if its going to be enough to get a Beal or Booker etc. I think what we are going to have to do is draft a guy at 15 (Josh Green is my bet) and then sign a young FA with potential (im hoping for Damyean Dotson from the knicks), and hope to hit on atleast one of them.

I checked Fournier passing stats and he makes significantly less passes than other starters, but his assist to pass % is best on the team, while also he is second on the team in hockey assists. To me that paints a player who is score first guard, with above average vision good passing technique, decisive in his actions, but also willing to move the ball when he sees the opening. His first option is to score and I think that mentality is the reason for his spectacular efectiveness and i dont blame him for it. Players with similar pass count per game are Redick, Jaylen Brown, Malik Beasley, Dillon Brooks, KCP, Tim Hardaway so he fits into shooters passing profile BUT he is the most accurate passer by a mile to all these players. Fournier had higher usage than Gordon every year except 2017-2018. That was our most tragic year, when we sucked the most. Giving Gordon the ball equals losing so i am not suprised Fournier first option is to pass to Vucevic and second is to score.


Lol. Last year was Evan's worst season. He was terrible on all fronts, all season long. That was also the team's best season. Hmmm...

This season Fournier is shooting better and has taken on a larger role, but we're a worse team as a result. Hmmm...

You work so hard to find a way to take a shot at Gordon in everything you say but then you go and give glowing appraisals to Fournier and Vuc who have carried us to losing season after losing season as our two highest usage players. It's time for a new agenda mate.

Well its not hard to praise a good player and critic a bad one. If i am not mistaken you are the one with the agenda, dont load me with your burdens. We are a worse team becouse Fournier shoots better ? Are you serious ? Let me think... maybe its becouse last season we were injury free, and this season we were missing everybody and season ended when our schedule got easier ? Also checking stats and writing facts is not glowing appraisals, its doing your homework before you post.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#884 » by Bensational » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:20 pm

zaymon wrote:
Bensational wrote:
zaymon wrote:I checked Fournier passing stats and he makes significantly less passes than other starters, but his assist to pass % is best on the team, while also he is second on the team in hockey assists. To me that paints a player who is score first guard, with above average vision good passing technique, decisive in his actions, but also willing to move the ball when he sees the opening. His first option is to score and I think that mentality is the reason for his spectacular efectiveness and i dont blame him for it. Players with similar pass count per game are Redick, Jaylen Brown, Malik Beasley, Dillon Brooks, KCP, Tim Hardaway so he fits into shooters passing profile BUT he is the most accurate passer by a mile to all these players. Fournier had higher usage than Gordon every year except 2017-2018. That was our most tragic year, when we sucked the most. Giving Gordon the ball equals losing so i am not suprised Fournier first option is to pass to Vucevic and second is to score.


Lol. Last year was Evan's worst season. He was terrible on all fronts, all season long. That was also the team's best season. Hmmm...

This season Fournier is shooting better and has taken on a larger role, but we're a worse team as a result. Hmmm...

You work so hard to find a way to take a shot at Gordon in everything you say but then you go and give glowing appraisals to Fournier and Vuc who have carried us to losing season after losing season as our two highest usage players. It's time for a new agenda mate.

Well its not hard to praise a good player and critic a bad one. If i am not mistaken you are the one with the agenda, dont load me with your burdens. We are a worse team becouse Fournier shoots better ? Are you serious ? Let me think... maybe its becouse last season we were injury free, and this season we were missing everybody and season ended when our schedule got easier ? Also checking stats and writing facts is not glowing appraisals, its doing your homework before you post.


Ahhhh... So when the team performs worse behind Fournier, you have no trouble finding the injury excuse for him. But in 'our most tragic season ever' when Gordon overtook him in USG you don't bother acknowledging the injuries we had that season too?

Or did you not do your homework on that one?

All three of Vuc, Gordon and Fournier are on par in terms of impacting a team positively. None move the needle a great deal. If you relegate them all to a true 3rd option on a championship team, my money says Gordon still ends up the most valuable contributor amongst them because he can play both sides of the court.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#885 » by zaymon » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:47 pm

Bensational wrote:
zaymon wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Lol. Last year was Evan's worst season. He was terrible on all fronts, all season long. That was also the team's best season. Hmmm...

This season Fournier is shooting better and has taken on a larger role, but we're a worse team as a result. Hmmm...

You work so hard to find a way to take a shot at Gordon in everything you say but then you go and give glowing appraisals to Fournier and Vuc who have carried us to losing season after losing season as our two highest usage players. It's time for a new agenda mate.

Well its not hard to praise a good player and critic a bad one. If i am not mistaken you are the one with the agenda, dont load me with your burdens. We are a worse team becouse Fournier shoots better ? Are you serious ? Let me think... maybe its becouse last season we were injury free, and this season we were missing everybody and season ended when our schedule got easier ? Also checking stats and writing facts is not glowing appraisals, its doing your homework before you post.


Ahhhh... So when the team performs worse behind Fournier, you have no trouble finding the injury excuse for him. But in 'our most tragic season ever' when Gordon overtook him in USG you don't bother acknowledging the injuries we had that season too?

Or did you not do your homework on that one?

All three of Vuc, Gordon and Fournier are on par in terms of impacting a team positively. None move the needle a great deal. If you relegate them all to a true 3rd option on a championship team, my money says Gordon still ends up the most valuable contributor amongst them because he can play both sides of the court.

Team performing worse behind Fournier according to who, to you ? I guess there is no difference between 25-57 and 30-35. So you think we underperformed this year becouse Fournier played good and not becouse Gordon played awful ? brilliant logic.
I never said Fournier should be our number 1 option, but i cant stand the hate he is getting. I try to look at stats as a whole, thats why i wrote he doesnt pass as much as the other starters, but i also try to search for the causes and he has a lot of good things going for him.
I would argue AG can play both sides of the court. He was a disaster on the offensive end this season. His defense is also overrated, makes many simple mistakes on rotations. I would never put AG and Fournier in the same tier offensively, they are not even close. Believe it or not, but Evan had much harder defensive assignments this year, i wrote the specific numbers before, but Evan mostly guards lead ball handlers while Gordon spot up shooters.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#886 » by Bensational » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:16 pm

zaymon wrote:
Bensational wrote:
zaymon wrote:Well its not hard to praise a good player and critic a bad one. If i am not mistaken you are the one with the agenda, dont load me with your burdens. We are a worse team becouse Fournier shoots better ? Are you serious ? Let me think... maybe its becouse last season we were injury free, and this season we were missing everybody and season ended when our schedule got easier ? Also checking stats and writing facts is not glowing appraisals, its doing your homework before you post.


Ahhhh... So when the team performs worse behind Fournier, you have no trouble finding the injury excuse for him. But in 'our most tragic season ever' when Gordon overtook him in USG you don't bother acknowledging the injuries we had that season too?

Or did you not do your homework on that one?

All three of Vuc, Gordon and Fournier are on par in terms of impacting a team positively. None move the needle a great deal. If you relegate them all to a true 3rd option on a championship team, my money says Gordon still ends up the most valuable contributor amongst them because he can play both sides of the court.

Team performing worse behind Fournier according to who, to you ? I guess there is no difference between 25-57 and 30-35. So you think we underperformed this year becouse Fournier played good and not becouse Gordon played awful ? brilliant logic.
I never said Fournier should be our number 1 option, but i cant stand the hate he is getting. I try to look at stats as a whole, thats why i wrote he doesnt pass as much as the other starters, but i also try to search for the causes and he has a lot of good things going for him.
I would argue AG can play both sides of the court. He was a disaster on the offensive end this season. His defense is also overrated, makes many simple mistakes on rotations. I would never put AG and Fournier in the same tier offensively, they are not even close. Believe it or not, but Evan had much harder defensive assignments this year, i wrote the specific numbers before, but Evan mostly guards lead ball handlers while Gordon spot up shooters.


In all honesty I think a lot of your criticisms of Gordon are on point and genuine flaws of his, but you exaggerate the extent of how detrimental they are. Tragic, awful, disaster - it's all unnecessary hyperbole. But, the specific shortcomings you point out are definitely there.

Evan guarding lead ball handlers doesn't mean much to me when the league's most impactful players are big wings he never matches up with. Giannis, Luka, LeBron, Kawhi, Durant, Tatum, Simmons, etc etc. These are the league's most elite and Gordon draws those assignments, even over Isaac. Evan's toughest matchup is Harden who blew him out of the water (but when Evan was out we kept him contained). I think Evan is generally good sticking with his man on the perimeter and disrupting lanes, but the moment his player goes near the paint he's a non-factor.

That said, I think you roll me into the Evan haters when I'm not. I float his name in trades all the time, but I can't stress enough that I'm actually a big fan of his. I could see him thriving in the right circumstances, in just not sure if this is that situation. My gut says he goes back to Denver as a FA and he'll thrive in their system.

And for the record, you and I clash a lot, but I genuinely enjoy and agree with a lot of your insight and takes. I think you've got a strong feel for how our FO actually operates. We just can't seem to find a mutual appreciation on Vuc, Gordon and Fournier is all.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#887 » by Skin » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:28 pm

The Effect wrote:
Skin wrote:
The Effect wrote:
What if the coaches and WeHam got him, then found out he was lazy, was 2 years away from being 2 years away and realized he wasnt the answer and would be a mistake to jettison Vuc for him?
To me thats the most logical explanation for the vuc extension. People can trash talk vuc, but he was the best player on a team that made the playoffs for the first time in years, no way you let him leave for a guy like bamba, especially when its painfully obvious that hes no where near real and unless he changes his attitude, wont be ready til his 2nd contract at the earliest




I hate to say it, but you know, some times GMs miss on players, even at the top of the draft. Dont forget that hammond is the same guy who drafted Thon Maker. Weltman was a top guy in Toronto when they used #9 on Poetl and are the team that drafted the original "2 years away from being 2 years away". And CLifford was the HC when the hornets drafted Noah Vonleh.... But they are also the guys who draft Giannis and Siakem. So they swing for the fences and they win some, they lose some. Im betting 2 years in, WeHam are chalking up Bamba as a miss.

I keep going back to it, but i dont think its his physical skill, i think its his mentality. You can say hes not lazy, but everything he does on the court says otherwise. He doesnt hustle, he jogs back and forth, and only sprints when he has a chance at a sportscenter play. He cares more about highlights than fundamentals. Clearly the coaches see it, hell most here saw it when he was at texas and criticized him for it, and damn if it didnt carry over to the NBA. I wish i was wrong about him, and was really excited about him early on (wasnt a big fan of his in college, but convinced myself he would be good after realizing that there was no way we would pass if he was there), and his first game in the NBA he looked like a future superstar, but that first game might of been his best game.

I hope im wrong, id love for bamba to suddenly turn it on, get that killer attitude and become the next KG, but as of right now, i dont see it and worried hes more likely to be Noah Vonleh than Siakem (wont even say Giannis, thats not fair to anyone)

Why would somebody who works so hard on his body (like top 3 biggest transformations during corona) ever be called lazy? Why would he go through all that trouble (like waking up in the middle of the night to eat) kind of trouble... just to purposely play with no desire when he has limited minutes? Does that sound like a reasonable analysis?

Feels like your take on him is negative because it aligns with your judgements of him as a prospect... and you'd rather prefer him to fail because that how you projected him. So you ding him for every flaw in every bad play in every game. That's cool. That's your prerogative. That's your right. But the bias is clear.

Vuc is a really good player. But he's not a leader. He's not a winner. He's a good guy on a bad team. As a 3rd or 4th option on a contender, he'd fit perfectly. As the #1 option, that's a dead end team that needs to rebuild. The Spurs or Mavs would be so perfect for him, imo.

Clearly one of us is viewing Bamba with pre-draft bias, and its not me.
Youre basing your opinions of him on predraft hype ONLY rather than anything hes done in the nba, because to this point he hasnt show anything except that he has a long wingspan.

im more than willing to change my mind on players based on my predraft opinions, case in point, aaron gordon. I hated him in college, partially because im sdsu fan and arizona knocked us out that year, but also because i thought he was another guy who drafted because of athletic ability and defensive potential with no offense game.....Difference? Hes shown he can play in the NBA and isnt just trying to live of being athletic, hes clearly put the work in, improved, impressed the coaches and become a real NBA starter. Bamba has done none of that. Hes the guy who 2 years in has all the same knocks about him in the NBA that he did in college, except now he has added weight

Of course it's you. You're the one referring back to your opinions of him when you thought he was lazy at Texas. You're the one that bashes him on the daily.

I'm not basing my opinions of him because of predraft hype. I'm not even predicting now that he's gonna be good or bad. He could be good or he could be bad. My problem remains with the decision to draft him and then block his path of development/ascension over the LONG TERM. How can Bamba show his value on the court when he plays off the ball (like Centers do) with globe trotter backups who are trying to get their own... or vets like T-Ross who thinks it's his job to play hero ball with the second unit?

So I go back to... why are people bashing him? He's still in his second year, playing scrimmage games in a new body, without a game plan around him, without the ball in his hands, without good players around him, and inconsistent minutes. Can you give the guy a chance to bust before you actually call him a bust? Can you see why his development plan could be a reason why he busts? Could you see him moving onto another organization and having a better career than he might get here?

IMO, we need to get rid of Vuc in order for Bamba to have the chance to truly shine. Vuc supporters love to say meaningless things like he brought us back to the playoffs (playoffs is not the goal)... they love to say he's not in the way (yes he is)... they love to say we can trade him when Bamba is ready (no we can't, his trade value is less than Bamba's... I wonder why???)... Vuc is just an expensive stop gap Center who WeHam resigned out of fear, not for fulfillment of their long term vision.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#888 » by basketballRob » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:37 pm

Fournier will opt in and be traded to a team willing to extend him.

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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#889 » by Skin » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:52 am

basketballRob wrote:Fournier will opt in and be traded to a team willing to extend him.

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No one will trade for him because they will just sign him in FA without needing to give up anything.

Trade deadline over for this year, right? Best time to trade him was then... to a team who would've wanted him for a playoff run + possible additional season (with his opt in year).
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#890 » by KillMonger » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:03 pm

Skin wrote:
basketballRob wrote:Fournier will opt in and be traded to a team willing to extend him.

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No one will trade for him because they will just sign him in FA without needing to give up anything.

Trade deadline over for this year, right? Best time to trade him was then... to a team who would've wanted him for a playoff run + possible additional season (with his opt in year).

yep.....missed opportunity....for me i've beeeeeen done with him....i appreciate what he's done but it's time to turn the page....hopefully he opts out but either way he'll be gone soon enough
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#891 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:29 pm

Skin wrote:
basketballRob wrote:Fournier will opt in and be traded to a team willing to extend him.

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No one will trade for him because they will just sign him in FA without needing to give up anything.

Trade deadline over for this year, right? Best time to trade him was then... to a team who would've wanted him for a playoff run + possible additional season (with his opt in year).


Still think Atlanta takes a real hard look at him come FA.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#892 » by Skybox » Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:05 pm

Skin wrote:
basketballRob wrote:Fournier will opt in and be traded to a team willing to extend him.

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No one will trade for him because they will just sign him in FA without needing to give up anything.

Trade deadline over for this year, right? Best time to trade him was then... to a team who would've wanted him for a playoff run + possible additional season (with his opt in year).


A LOT more teams are able to trade for him than come up with 18m in cap space to sign him. ATL is a real possibility- not too many others with the dough.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#893 » by Skin » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:04 pm

Skybox wrote:
Skin wrote:
basketballRob wrote:Fournier will opt in and be traded to a team willing to extend him.

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No one will trade for him because they will just sign him in FA without needing to give up anything.

Trade deadline over for this year, right? Best time to trade him was then... to a team who would've wanted him for a playoff run + possible additional season (with his opt in year).


A LOT more teams are able to trade for him than come up with 18m in cap space to sign him. ATL is a real possibility- not too many others with the dough.

When Fournier is a UFA in 2021, 2/3rds of the league will have more than 18M in cap space.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/cap/2020/
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#894 » by basketballRob » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:15 pm

Skin wrote:
Skybox wrote:
Skin wrote:No one will trade for him because they will just sign him in FA without needing to give up anything.

Trade deadline over for this year, right? Best time to trade him was then... to a team who would've wanted him for a playoff run + possible additional season (with his opt in year).


A LOT more teams are able to trade for him than come up with 18m in cap space to sign him. ATL is a real possibility- not too many others with the dough.

When Fournier is a UFA in 2021, 2/3rds of the league will have more than 18M in cap space.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/cap/2020/
I think they can work a deal where he opts in and gets an extension from the Magic then traded. I think he'll want security, plus it doesn't make the Magic look like the bad guys. A team that's already over the cap could trade for him. Golden state could add him with the TPE and just give us a draft pick. They have a 17m TPE which isn't quite enough for AG.

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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#895 » by Skin » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:17 am

basketballRob wrote:
Skin wrote:
Skybox wrote:
A LOT more teams are able to trade for him than come up with 18m in cap space to sign him. ATL is a real possibility- not too many others with the dough.

When Fournier is a UFA in 2021, 2/3rds of the league will have more than 18M in cap space.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/cap/2020/
I think they can work a deal where he opts in and gets an extension from the Magic then traded. I think he'll want security, plus it doesn't make the Magic look like the bad guys. A team that's already over the cap could trade for him. Golden state could add him with the TPE and just give us a draft pick. They have a 17m TPE which isn't quite enough for AG.

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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#896 » by KillMonger » Sat Aug 1, 2020 5:23 pm

so no summer league at all correct? like at a later date?
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#897 » by Knightro » Sun Aug 2, 2020 2:41 pm

KillMonger wrote:so no summer league at all correct? like at a later date?


Almost assuredly not.

The offseason is going to be a lot shorter than usual. The rumor is the NBA is looking to start the 2020-2021 season on or around December 1, 2020.

The Bubble Finals if they go 7 games won't end until October 13th. The two teams that make the finals are only going to have like 6 weeks off until the next training camp and less than two months before their first regular season game of the following season.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#898 » by j-ragg » Sun Aug 2, 2020 2:43 pm

Knightro wrote:
KillMonger wrote:so no summer league at all correct? like at a later date?


Almost assuredly not.

The offseason is going to be a lot shorter than usual. The rumor is the NBA is looking to start the 2020-2021 season on or around December 1, 2020.

The Bubble Finals if they go 7 games won't end until October 13th. The two teams that make the finals are only going to have like 6 weeks off until the next training camp and less than two months before their first regular season game of the following season.

They already cancelled it unfortunately. Looks tough logistically like you said but would've been fun to see our 2-3 guys.
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#899 » by KillMonger » Sun Aug 2, 2020 2:58 pm

Knightro wrote:
KillMonger wrote:so no summer league at all correct? like at a later date?


Almost assuredly not.

The offseason is going to be a lot shorter than usual. The rumor is the NBA is looking to start the 2020-2021 season on or around December 1, 2020.

The Bubble Finals if they go 7 games won't end until October 13th. The two teams that make the finals are only going to have like 6 weeks off until the next training camp and less than two months before their first regular season game of the following season.

that's a quick turnaround but there is no choice i guess.....going to be A LOT happening during that "off-season" trades/free agency is going to go a mile a minute
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zaymon
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Re: Official 2020 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#900 » by zaymon » Mon Aug 3, 2020 9:48 am

I feel like with injury to Isaac, Pokusevski and Williams will rise on our board. I would not be suprised if we trade up for Pokusevski. He is the only player who can try to fill the void left by JI on defense. (not half the defender Isaac is sadly ;((((((
Bold Predictions:
1. Deandre Ayton biggest disappointment of 2018 draft.
2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)

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