Regular Season Game 50: Orlando Magic (21-28) at Charlotte Hornets (16-33) - 7:00pm ET

[drsd]

All road wins are good wins. In this: Orlando outscored the Hornets in all four quarters!

[cedric76]

Those wins r so annoying because it shows us that when we play the right way we can beat anyone

Fultz should always lead our offense, his vision is outstanding.
Evan should focus on shooting 3s and attack the basket
Vuc is always good when fultz isn't in passive mode
Ag plays at his best when at pf and when attacking the basket (no more ag iso hero mamba mode)
Mo can be special when he ll put on more muscle

[The Real Dalic]

22-28! Woo 6 games under 500! Mediocrity!

[TheGlyde]

Odds are they aren't blowing this thing up... If this is the crew we ride with, I'd be interested in leaving Aaron at the 4 and starting Wes. At least Wes can hit open Jumpers and still is solid on D.

A few things I don't like about Cliff and one is that his coaching style is very reactive. Like playing the Clippers, Kawai goes to the bench = Aaron goes to the bench. Kawai subs back in = Aaron subs back in.

OKC has 3 PG lineup, Well we can't guard that cause we don't have 3 PGs... Okay, but how did their PGs manage to guard us?

Opposing team has big lineup = Start Khem at the 4 and Aaron at the 3 etc etc etc...

Why don't we ever try and be the one creating a mismatch and leading the dance? Even when we play against teams that are well beneath us?

Start Aaron at the 4 against a bigger PF and see if he can use his speed, athleticism and range to his advantage...

Khem is better at getting guys open with screens but he just can not shoot and works better with C-Ross (Chuck-Ross, see what I did there... har) in the second unit.

[SOUL]

A few things I don't like about Cliff and one is that his coaching style is very reactive. Like playing the Clippers, Kawai goes to the bench = Aaron goes to the bench. Kawai subs back in = Aaron subs back in.

This is my least favorite thing, and it's great that you point it out. Vogel was the same way. Our coaching has been way too conservative the past 5-7 seasons. The style is never constructed around the personnel, it's about the philosophy of the coach. So now we're a good defensive team (although we've sucked since Isaac went down), don't turn the ball over, but still are a terrible offensive team just like most of Cliff's teams.

I don't hate Cliff nor do I want him fired (at least this season), but at some point to get to where we want to go, we need a coach that is fluid enough to play to the personnel with a front office that has a clear vision in mind. You gotta take some risks to get where you want.. and I don't mean dumb risks like trading Oladipo and Sabonis for Ibaka..

The reactionary substitutions are just the cherry on top. That's literally the easiest thing to fix, but instead, we too often let other star players dictate our lineups no matter how well our guys are playing.

It's amazing that Rockets can play 5 guys under 6'6 and Heat can play Bam at PG, hell, even a bunch of bad teams try experimental lineups but we can't ever play Isaac at C or Bamba/Vuc together for stints while touting out lineups of MCW/Iwundu/Birch semi-frequently.

[p0peye]

We shot 47% on 3pts (16-34). Feels great, but we're not seeing that again soon.

I die a little bit inside every time Clifford says we need to shoot the ball better and that the offense was creating good shots. It bothers me when he is satisfied with crap offense. Tonight was an exception though. We generated good shots all night long. We got into the paint and kicked it out. It wasn't just Fultz.

We were just lucky those shots went in.

Magic are 4th worst team in the league shooting wide open 3pt shots (closest defender is more than 6 feet away) and 3rd worst team in the league shooting open 3pts shots (closest defender is 4-6 feets away).

When you can't throw a rock into ocean, that has nothing to do with coach.



What is even more important, and what I can't seem to find stats for, is the average number of wide open shots that we didn't take because player on perimeter can't shoot and chooses to pass. I bet it is tragic.

[drsd]

Orlando only had 9 Tis, dominated in FG%, defended the 3-ball in an elite manner. The only thing keeping this from being a "perfect" game was that the Hornets bench dominated the Magic bench on the boards. This led to 9 extra FG opportunities for Charlotte.

[zaymon]

Odds are they aren't blowing this thing up... If this is the crew we ride with, I'd be interested in leaving Aaron at the 4 and starting Wes. At least Wes can hit open Jumpers and still is solid on D.

A few things I don't like about Cliff and one is that his coaching style is very reactive. Like playing the Clippers, Kawai goes to the bench = Aaron goes to the bench. Kawai subs back in = Aaron subs back in.

OKC has 3 PG lineup, Well we can't guard that cause we don't have 3 PGs... Okay, but how did their PGs manage to guard us?

Opposing team has big lineup = Start Khem at the 4 and Aaron at the 3 etc etc etc...

Why don't we ever try and be the one creating a mismatch and leading the dance? Even when we play against teams that are well beneath us?

Start Aaron at the 4 against a bigger PF and see if he can use his speed, athleticism and range to his advantage...

Khem is better at getting guys open with screens but he just can not shoot and works better with C-Ross (Chuck-Ross, see what I did there... har) in the second unit.

Better offensive team usually dictates the terms. We dont have any players that can dominate a matchup. Gordon doesnt have the handle to blow by even centers let alone other forwards. I would risk a statement Birch screen creates a better shot than Gordon drive.

[Optimus_Steel]

Odds are they aren't blowing this thing up... If this is the crew we ride with, I'd be interested in leaving Aaron at the 4 and starting Wes. At least Wes can hit open Jumpers and still is solid on D.

A few things I don't like about Cliff and one is that his coaching style is very reactive. Like playing the Clippers, Kawai goes to the bench = Aaron goes to the bench. Kawai subs back in = Aaron subs back in.

OKC has 3 PG lineup, Well we can't guard that cause we don't have 3 PGs... Okay, but how did their PGs manage to guard us?

Opposing team has big lineup = Start Khem at the 4 and Aaron at the 3 etc etc etc...

Why don't we ever try and be the one creating a mismatch and leading the dance? Even when we play against teams that are well beneath us?

Start Aaron at the 4 against a bigger PF and see if he can use his speed, athleticism and range to his advantage...

Khem is better at getting guys open with screens but he just can not shoot and works better with C-Ross (Chuck-Ross, see what I did there... har) in the second unit.

On the Kawhi thing, since Issac is out then AG needs to be out on the floor every time Kawhi is in the game so that works for me.

[Skybox]

It's amazing that Rockets can play 5 guys under 6'6 and Heat can play Bam at PG, hell, even a bunch of bad teams try experimental lineups but we can't ever play Isaac at C or Bamba/Vuc together for stints while touting out lineups of MCW/Iwundu/Birch semi-frequently."

Would be fun. When Isaac plays next to Vuc, he blocks 4 shots and plays switchy D, and hangs at the perimeter for open 3's...why can't Bamba TRY to do the same? especially while we're depleted. Cliff comes in, minimizes mistakes and turnovers, builds a solid foundation...great work but it's time to experiment, IMO. We're going nowhere and potentially delaying the development of our high picks and Fultz.

[Xatticus]

We shot 47% on 3pts (16-34). Feels great, but we're not seeing that again soon.

I die a little bit inside every time Clifford says we need to shoot the ball better and that the offense was creating good shots. It bothers me when he is satisfied with crap offense. Tonight was an exception though. We generated good shots all night long. We got into the paint and kicked it out. It wasn't just Fultz.

We were just lucky those shots went in.

Magic are 4th worst team in the league shooting wide open 3pt shots (closest defender is more than 6 feet away) and 3rd worst team in the league shooting open 3pts shots (closest defender is 4-6 feets away).

When you can't throw a rock into ocean, that has nothing to do with coach.



What is even more important, and what I can't seem to find stats for, is the average number of wide open shots that we didn't take because player on perimeter can't shoot and chooses to pass. I bet it is tragic.

I vehemently disagree with this. The quality of shots from night to night aren't a constant. We didn't get 'lucky' last night. Watch the game again. We generated very good shots last night.

It's just such a lazy and uninformed argument to decry a team's shooting for it's struggles. It's akin to blaming a lack of blitzes for a bad defense in football.

You don't actually need good shooters to have a good offense, though it certainly doesn't hurt. Having good shooters makes it easier to generate good shots, but it is just one factor. This team was 12th in 3P% last year. Has our shooting suddenly tanked because we lost Jonathon Simmons and Jerian Grant? Our offensive problems run so much deeper than a lack of shooting.

[The Real Dalic]

I die a little bit inside every time Clifford says we need to shoot the ball better and that the offense was creating good shots. It bothers me when he is satisfied with crap offense. Tonight was an exception though. We generated good shots all night long. We got into the paint and kicked it out. It wasn't just Fultz.

We were just lucky those shots went in.

Magic are 4th worst team in the league shooting wide open 3pt shots (closest defender is more than 6 feet away) and 3rd worst team in the league shooting open 3pts shots (closest defender is 4-6 feets away).

When you can't throw a rock into ocean, that has nothing to do with coach.



What is even more important, and what I can't seem to find stats for, is the average number of wide open shots that we didn't take because player on perimeter can't shoot and chooses to pass. I bet it is tragic.

I vehemently disagree with this. The quality of shots from night to night aren't a constant. We didn't get 'lucky' last night. Watch the game again. We generated very good shots last night.

It's just such a lazy and uninformed argument to decry a team's shooting for it's struggles. It's akin to blaming a lack of blitzes for a bad defense in football.

You don't actually need good shooters to have a good offense, though it certainly doesn't hurt. Having good shooters makes it easier to generate good shots, but it is just one factor. This team was 12th in 3P% last year. Has our shooting suddenly tanked because we lost Jonathon Simmons and Jerian Grant? Our offensive problems run so much deeper than a lack of shooting.

While I mostly agree, it should be noted that our offense was also a lot better because we were facing a terrible defensive team. That, and Fultz was the primary ball handler all game for once.

[p0peye]

I die a little bit inside every time Clifford says we need to shoot the ball better and that the offense was creating good shots. It bothers me when he is satisfied with crap offense. Tonight was an exception though. We generated good shots all night long. We got into the paint and kicked it out. It wasn't just Fultz.

We were just lucky those shots went in.

Magic are 4th worst team in the league shooting wide open 3pt shots (closest defender is more than 6 feet away) and 3rd worst team in the league shooting open 3pts shots (closest defender is 4-6 feets away).

When you can't throw a rock into ocean, that has nothing to do with coach.



What is even more important, and what I can't seem to find stats for, is the average number of wide open shots that we didn't take because player on perimeter can't shoot and chooses to pass. I bet it is tragic.

I vehemently disagree with this. The quality of shots from night to night aren't a constant. We didn't get 'lucky' last night. Watch the game again. We generated very good shots last night.

It's just such a lazy and uninformed argument to decry a team's shooting for it's struggles. It's akin to blaming a lack of blitzes for a bad defense in football.

You don't actually need good shooters to have a good offense, though it certainly doesn't hurt. Having good shooters makes it easier to generate good shots, but it is just one factor. This team was 12th in 3P% last year. Has our shooting suddenly tanked because we lost Jonathon Simmons and Jerian Grant? Our offensive problems run so much deeper than a lack of shooting.

This stat shows that we are one of the worst teams in the league when it comes to making open and wide open shots. Are they not considered as "quality shots", or you have other explanation on why we clank them other than fielding players with no range?

What exactly needs to happen so NBA player on our roster can make a basket with no opponent around them?

Again, what these stats don't tell are the wide open shots that aren't taken - watch the games and take screenshots on what happens when we have Fultz, Birch, MCW, Iwundu on perimeter - even with the ball in their hands. Pepe posted several times on this topic.

[TheGlyde]

On the Kawhi thing, since Issac is out then AG needs to be out on the floor every time Kawhi is in the game so that works for me.

Just an example of things being locked in and no adaptation on the fly.

What if Gordon went 4-4 from down town in the first 5 minutes to start the game, Doc Rivers calls time out. "Okay guys we need to slow Aaron Gordon down, so the easiest way to do that is sub out Kawhi for a few minutes and Clifford will bench him".

My point is to go with the ebb and flow a little more, at least occasionally.

[Xatticus]

We were just lucky those shots went in.

Magic are 4th worst team in the league shooting wide open 3pt shots (closest defender is more than 6 feet away) and 3rd worst team in the league shooting open 3pts shots (closest defender is 4-6 feets away).

When you can't throw a rock into ocean, that has nothing to do with coach.



What is even more important, and what I can't seem to find stats for, is the average number of wide open shots that we didn't take because player on perimeter can't shoot and chooses to pass. I bet it is tragic.

I vehemently disagree with this. The quality of shots from night to night aren't a constant. We didn't get 'lucky' last night. Watch the game again. We generated very good shots last night.

It's just such a lazy and uninformed argument to decry a team's shooting for it's struggles. It's akin to blaming a lack of blitzes for a bad defense in football.

You don't actually need good shooters to have a good offense, though it certainly doesn't hurt. Having good shooters makes it easier to generate good shots, but it is just one factor. This team was 12th in 3P% last year. Has our shooting suddenly tanked because we lost Jonathon Simmons and Jerian Grant? Our offensive problems run so much deeper than a lack of shooting.

This stat shows that we are one of the worst teams in the league when it comes to making open and wide open shots. Are they not considered as "quality shots", or you have other explanation on why we clank them other than fielding players with no range?

What exactly needs to happen so NBA player on our roster can make a basket with no opponent around them?

Again, what these stats don't tell are the wide open shots that aren't taken - watch the games and take screenshots on what happens when we have Fultz, Birch, MCW, Iwundu on perimeter - even with the ball in their hands. Pepe posted several times on this topic.

We were 7th in the league on shots meeting that same set of criteria last season with a roster that is largely unchanged this season. We had a dreadful offense last season as well. Basketball isn't a game of horse.

It's my belief that a lot of the people that go down these rabbit holes don't really have an appreciation for what they are seeing when they watch basketball. I have basically tuned out the screen captures that pepe posts. They mean nothing without context. You get all sorts of odd alignments over the course of a game due to loose balls, offensive rebounds, switches and recoveries, etc...

Teams sag off of every player. They never abandon a player unless someone screws up. There was at least a couple occasions last night where Ross was left completely open, yet Fournier didn't make the easy pass to Ross and instead tried to force the ball into the post. If it was Iwundu that had been lost by the defense, I'm sure I'd have read a long-winded post explaining why Iwundu is the reason that our offense sucks.

I keep reading excuses for why Vucevic is struggling and the blame is always on some other player. People argue that he gets double and triple-teamed, which simply isn't the case. Nobody is going to triple Vucevic. It's really rare that anyone brings a double unless there is a mismatch due to a switch. Here is the kicker though... if you actually have a player that consistently draws doubles, that's a great thing. When the double comes, you pass to the open man and the defense goes into scramble mode.

As it regards last night's game, MCW, Iwundu, Gordon, and Fultz all got into the paint several times and kicked the ball out to open shooters. That's why our offense looked good. That's uncommon for us. We usually go into long stretches where we force the two-man game, force the ball into the post, or force the ball to Ross coming off of a screen.

[Skybox]

On the Kawhi thing, since Issac is out then AG needs to be out on the floor every time Kawhi is in the game so that works for me.

Just an example of things being locked in and no adaptation on the fly.

What if Gordon went 4-4 from down town in the first 5 minutes to start the game, Doc Rivers calls time out. "Okay guys we need to slow Aaron Gordon down, so the easiest way to do that is sub out Kawhi for a few minutes and Clifford will bench him".

My point is to go with the ebb and flow a little more, at least occasionally.

When our guys, particularly AG, are significant enough on offense, they WILL dictate a response. He hasn't gone 4 for 4 since middle school.

[Knightro]

This stat shows that we are one of the worst teams in the league when it comes to making open and wide open shots. Are they not considered as "quality shots", or you have other explanation on why we clank them other than fielding players with no range?

What exactly needs to happen so NBA player on our roster can make a basket with no opponent around them?

Again, what these stats don't tell are the wide open shots that aren't taken - watch the games and take screenshots on what happens when we have Fultz, Birch, MCW, Iwundu on perimeter - even with the ball in their hands. Pepe posted several times on this topic.

Something else to consider...

This Season
"Very Tight" 3PTA - 2nd per game
"Tight" 3PTA - 3rd per game
"Open" 3PTA - 29th per game
"Wide Open" 3PTA - 19th per game

Last Season
"Very Tight" 3PTA - 4th per game
"Tight" 3PTA - 7th per game
"Open" 3PTA - 21st per game
"Wide Open" 3PTA - 12th per game

It goes much deeper than simply making or missing shots. This team struggles to create enough good shots (combined with their inability to draw a lot of FTs) to maintain any sort of hope of having an efficient offense.

The percentages aren't where they need to be this year, but they're also just not generating enough open and wide open 3PT attempts compared to the rest of the NBA or compared to last season either.

[TheGlyde]

On the Kawhi thing, since Issac is out then AG needs to be out on the floor every time Kawhi is in the game so that works for me.

Just an example of things being locked in and no adaptation on the fly.

What if Gordon went 4-4 from down town in the first 5 minutes to start the game, Doc Rivers calls time out. "Okay guys we need to slow Aaron Gordon down, so the easiest way to do that is sub out Kawhi for a few minutes and Clifford will bench him".

My point is to go with the ebb and flow a little more, at least occasionally.

When our guys, particularly AG, are significant enough on offense, they WILL dictate a response. He hasn't gone 4 for 4 since middle school.

Okay for one, Gordon went 5-5 against the Suns earlier this season and 4-5 against (funny enough) the Clippers.

For two, I get your argument when we are playing defensively capable teams, but what about when we play the Washington's of the world? We can't try and dictate play to take advantage of any of their lawn chairs they have set up to play D?

[Xatticus]

Teams sag off of every player. They never abandon a player unless someone screws up. There was at least a couple occasions last night where Ross was left completely open, yet Fournier didn't make the easy pass to Ross and instead tried to force the ball into the post. If it was Iwundu that had been lost by the defense, I'm sure I'd have read a long-winded post explaining why Iwundu is the reason that our offense sucks.

I dug one up:


This was Fournier running the two-man game with Bamba. It's usually Vucevic, but this works fine as an example. I'd make a video if I knew how, but it's never seemed worth the effort to bother.

A brief synopsis of what is going on: MCW brings the ball into the frontcourt and gives it to Bamba at the top of the key. MCW heads to the far corner and takes Ross' defender with him. Ross slides up to the wing all alone. MCW's defender just gets himself lost in the paint. Bamba hands it off to Fournier and screens again for Fournier before rolling to the basket. Zeller hedges Fournier before trying to recover. The guard that got lost picks up Bamba as he drops to the basket. It should've been the man defending MCW in the corner that rotated, but their guard screwed up and Ross was all alone.

Due to Zeller hedging, Fournier had two defenders on him and so he had to give up the ball. The really easy decision here is for Fournier to pass the ball to Ross. That doesn't happen though. He forces the ball in to Bamba. When Fournier runs the two-man game, he sees nothing else. The pass to Bamba was inaccurate and takes Bamba away from the basket. Clark clears out of the corner when Bamba ends up there. Fournier moves towards Bamba to get the ball back, but Fournier's defender tries to steal the ball from Bamba and he is forced to aggressively try to close out Fournier after Bamba passes it out. Fournier sidesteps the defender and hits a three. Great possession? No. Not really.

Conclusion: Our offense sucks because teams simply don't respect Ross' ability to shoot.

[p0peye]

Teams sag off of every player. They never abandon a player unless someone screws up. There was at least a couple occasions last night where Ross was left completely open, yet Fournier didn't make the easy pass to Ross and instead tried to force the ball into the post. If it was Iwundu that had been lost by the defense, I'm sure I'd have read a long-winded post explaining why Iwundu is the reason that our offense sucks.

I dug one up:


This was Fournier running the two-man game with Bamba. It's usually Vucevic, but this works fine as an example. I'd make a video if I knew how, but it's never seemed worth the effort to bother.

A brief synopsis of what is going on: MCW brings the ball into the frontcourt and gives it to Bamba at the top of the key. MCW heads to the far corner and takes Ross' defender with him. Ross slides up to the wing all alone. MCW's defender just gets himself lost in the paint. Bamba hands it off to Fournier and screens again for Fournier before rolling to the basket. Zeller hedges Fournier before trying to recover. The guard that got lost picks up Bamba as he drops to the basket. It should've been the man defending MCW in the corner that rotated, but their guard screwed up and Ross was all alone.

Due to Zeller hedging, Fournier had two defenders on him and so he had to give up the ball. The really easy decision here is for Fournier to pass the ball to Ross. That doesn't happen though. He forces the ball in to Bamba. When Fournier runs the two-man game, he sees nothing else. The pass to Bamba was inaccurate and takes Bamba away from the basket. Clark clears out of the corner when Bamba ends up there. Fournier moves towards Bamba to get the ball back, but Fournier's defender tries to steal the ball from Bamba and he is forced to aggressively try to close out Fournier after Bamba passes it out. Fournier sidesteps the defender and hits a three. Great possession? No. Not really.

Conclusion: Our offense sucks because teams simply don't respect Ross' ability to shoot.

That is a rare situation as Ross is one of the guys in our team that has least wide open 3PA per game (0.8) - meaning as it rarely happens.

Number of wide open 3PA is not valid either as it simply represent situation where wide open player chooses to shoot. What we have here most frequently is that one of our players (be it Birch, Fultz or someone else) in almost every offensive possession has a wide open shot that he chooses not to take.

You are right, other teams have to work and move the ball, force switches and scrambles to get a player in such favorable position - we are getting that by opponent team defense design because we have players that can't shoot. I have no idea how this is even for debate. You can't use 3PA in this situation because we don't shoot.