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Summer Trades...never too early

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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#421 » by drsd » Tue May 5, 2020 1:55 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:I said I used the last complete season which is 2018-2019. The correct number of regular season cases according to ESPN Stats is 14.


I only see 12 for for 2018/19. Perhaps this is about "qualified" players, as by NBA standards:
NBA.com link = 12 players for 2018/19



We are on pace for 20 such cases in 2019-2020. So I have no idea where you’re getting 18.


Here:
NBA.com link = 18 players



Still, even if we push this out to the 65 number you’re speaking of ... Let’s put our thinking caps on and ask ourselves what that really means. This says you have approx 2 elite shooters per team if talent is equally distributed.


65 players is not "elite". There are only ~400 NBA players and only 300 will have qualifying statistics (that is play in 60 games or so). Now: most of those 65 are wing players and thus this is something like 50 players out of about 180 wing players. Or about one in four wind players has a 36% 3-ball with 4 attempts per game.

So for all the things they do well, are we expecting shooting to be what Fultz or Gordon become ELITE at?


In conclusion: I am not saying Fultz and/orGordon would get to these numbers, but the goal is a realistic one for them to both aim for.



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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#422 » by MagicFan101 » Tue May 5, 2020 2:41 pm

drsd wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:I said I used the last complete season which is 2018-2019. The correct number of regular season cases according to ESPN Stats is 14.


I only see 12 for for 2018/19. Perhaps this is about "qualified" players, as by NBA standards:
NBA.com link = 12 players for 2018/19



We are on pace for 20 such cases in 2019-2020. So I have no idea where you’re getting 18.


Here:
NBA.com link = 18 players



Still, even if we push this out to the 65 number you’re speaking of ... Let’s put our thinking caps on and ask ourselves what that really means. This says you have approx 2 elite shooters per team if talent is equally distributed.


65 players is not "elite". There are only ~400 NBA players and only 300 will have qualifying statistics (that is play in 60 games or so). Now: most of those 65 are wing players and thus this is something like 50 players out of about 180 wing players. Or about one in four wind players has a 36% 3-ball with 4 attempts per game.

So for all the things they do well, are we expecting shooting to be what Fultz or Gordon become ELITE at?


In conclusion: I am not saying Fultz and/orGordon would get to these numbers, but the goal is a realistic one for them to both aim for.



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Sure, that makes sense. ESPN includes players with as little as ~ 30 games played.

Even at 65, you can call it what you will but remember that is the FLOOR so 65 is the worst player of the group. Really we are talking #30-65. That’s pretty strong.
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#423 » by drsd » Tue May 5, 2020 4:35 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:Sure, that makes sense. ESPN includes players with as little as ~ 30 games played.

Even at 65, you can call it what you will but remember that is the FLOOR so 65 is the worst player of the group. Really we are talking #30-65. That’s pretty strong.


Sorted by FG%, for 40% and 4attempts pg, the lowest per percentage is Tyler Herro; by attempts per game is Kyle Korver. No sane Magic fan thinks Gordon or Fultz should realistically aspire to either of their shooting numbers.


Sorted by FG%, for 36% and 4attempts pg, the lowest per percentage is Chris Paul; by attempts per game is Patrick Beverley. For Fultz, aspiring to the 3-ball of Paul and Beverley is realistic, in my opinion. For Gordon, well there is Doug McDermott; that is also aspirational but not insane.


My final thoughts: if Fultz gets his three-ball numbers to that of Patrick Beverley AND Gordon to that of Doug McDermott, the Magic will be title contenders without making any roster changes.



This was a fun thought exercise !!!!

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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#424 » by Skybox » Tue May 5, 2020 11:57 pm

I guess that was kind of my point with the question...40% on 4+ attempts is a pretty elite shooter, not a reasonable assumption for both
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#425 » by pepe1991 » Wed May 6, 2020 6:42 am

being 35% three point shooter while never demanding any attention means nothing really. Almost all centers, despite their hot streaks, never get any attention while camping on 3 point line.
That's why Lopez is such a disaster this year and that's why Myles Turner is trading chip, not building stone of Pacers.

But that can be expended to guards/wings as well. Nobody really rushes to stop Pat Bev from shooting.
Giannis is 3rd in most 3 point shoot attemps while nobody is around him. Why? Well... because he sucks at it.

Vuc , Horford, Turner, Baynes (and Lopez who I already mentioned) are open and don't make anybody pay for it.

So you could say in nutshell "Turner is 34% three point shooter, that's basically league's average" ... and in reality he is player who is poor passer, super mediocre shooter and pretty bad pick&roll player, so comes as no suprise he , by himself makes whole offense tank.
Matter of fact his -1,47 ORPM makes hims 6th worst offensive center in basketball
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#426 » by Hogified05 » Wed May 6, 2020 9:44 am

The hero Orlando deserves is out there somewhere, Dwight was not the one we needed. So we will hunt for him...
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#427 » by Tarheel » Wed May 6, 2020 12:11 pm

Hogified05 wrote:http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y89jdl4m

Guy can dream can't he?


Lol imagine the Wizards fans if their FO traded Beal for Wiggins
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#428 » by drsd » Thu May 7, 2020 8:12 am

Hogified05 wrote:http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y89jdl4m

Guy can dream can't he?



Last night I dreamt that I had to escape prison on my Execution day for a murder I DID NOT COMMIT. So yes, one can always dream.
(( Freud needs to explain that dream to me !!! ))


p.s. In my dream I did escape successfully :D

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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#429 » by drsd » Sun May 10, 2020 7:00 am

One interesting rumour is the Warriors look to trade their first round pick for an upgrade over WIggens with Gordon being the target.


It would be a complex trade, as Orlando is not gonna get Wiggens and perhaps the overall #1 for only Gordon.

But; what would Orlando have to add to a Gordon package to end up with the rights to Anthony Edwards?

Given that an ace-SG is the easiest path to NBA titles in today's league, I would think the Magic could add a good bit to such a Gordon-package.
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#430 » by zaymon » Sun May 10, 2020 9:27 am

drsd wrote:One interesting rumour is the Warriors look to trade their first round pick for an upgrade over WIggens with Gordon being the target.


It would be a complex trade, as Orlando is not gonna get Wiggens and perhaps the overall #1 for only Gordon.

But; what would Orlando have to add to a Gordon package to end up with the rights to Anthony Edwards?

Given that an ace-SG is the easiest path to NBA titles in today's league, I would think the Magic could add a good bit to such a Gordon-package.

Is having ace- sg really the easiest path to nba titles ? It seems to me like its the most irrelevant position. You need shooting, size and basic ball handling. League is ruled with playmaking forwards and 3 level scoring point guards. Look at Bucks, they prefered to sign a center over shooting guard.
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#431 » by drsd » Mon May 11, 2020 4:24 pm

zaymon wrote:Is having ace- sg really the easiest path to nba titles ?


It is currently a guard's league.


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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#432 » by zaymon » Mon May 11, 2020 6:12 pm

drsd wrote:
zaymon wrote:Is having ace- sg really the easiest path to nba titles ?


It is currently a guard's league.


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I would say guard skillset on a forward body.
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#433 » by MasterGMer » Mon May 11, 2020 9:24 pm

Wiggins and the NO.1 pick? I'd trade anybody except JI and Fultz
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#434 » by AdonalFoyle4Prez » Tue May 12, 2020 3:05 am

MasterGMer wrote:Wiggins and the NO.1 pick? I'd trade anybody except JI and Fultz


Our board is 50%/50% with Wiggins. For me, I'd like to say we keep him and attempt to transform his game into the ball movement that we play.

For me, I'd swap trades for our top-3 pick + TPE to get Evan Fournier + 15th pick. What do you guys think?
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#435 » by MasterGMer » Tue May 12, 2020 3:24 am

AdonalFoyle4Prez wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:Wiggins and the NO.1 pick? I'd trade anybody except JI and Fultz


Our board is 50%/50% with Wiggins. For me, I'd like to say we keep him and attempt to transform his game into the ball movement that we play.

For me, I'd swap trades for our top-3 pick + TPE to get Evan Fournier + 15th pick. What do you guys think?


What is TPE? But Evan has player option this upcoming offseason. However, I'd do that in a heartbeat
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#436 » by AdonalFoyle4Prez » Tue May 12, 2020 4:01 am

MasterGMer wrote:
AdonalFoyle4Prez wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:Wiggins and the NO.1 pick? I'd trade anybody except JI and Fultz


Our board is 50%/50% with Wiggins. For me, I'd like to say we keep him and attempt to transform his game into the ball movement that we play.

For me, I'd swap trades for our top-3 pick + TPE to get Evan Fournier + 15th pick. What do you guys think?


What is TPE? But Evan has player option this upcoming offseason. However, I'd do that in a heartbeat


It's a traded player exception (TPE) we got from trading Iguodala to Memphis last offseason. It's a bit confusing, depending on the state of your teams' salary cap. In this case, the TPE would be used to take on Fournier's contract (If he opts into his Player Option for next season.).

What if we threw in Wiggins + Looney + 2020 Top 3-Pick + 2020 2nd Round Pick for Nikola Vucevic + Jonathan Isaac + 2020 15th Pick, instead?

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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#437 » by MasterGMer » Tue May 12, 2020 4:55 am

AdonalFoyle4Prez wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:
AdonalFoyle4Prez wrote:
Our board is 50%/50% with Wiggins. For me, I'd like to say we keep him and attempt to transform his game into the ball movement that we play.

For me, I'd swap trades for our top-3 pick + TPE to get Evan Fournier + 15th pick. What do you guys think?


What is TPE? But Evan has player option this upcoming offseason. However, I'd do that in a heartbeat


It's a traded player exception (TPE) we got from trading Iguodala to Memphis last offseason. It's a bit confusing, depending on the state of your teams' salary cap. In this case, the TPE would be used to take on Fournier's contract (If he opts into his Player Option for next season.).

What if we threw in Wiggins + Looney + 2020 Top 3-Pick + 2020 2nd Round Pick for Nikola Vucevic + Jonathan Isaac + 2020 15th Pick, instead?

Image



I think Jonathan Isaac is untouchable. Swap him with Gordon and swap Vucevic with Bamba. And I will do the deal
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#438 » by pepe1991 » Tue May 12, 2020 7:20 am

Even in 12 games for Warriors where he did play better, Wiggins was still painfully mediocre player.
His issue is like with Gordon, once upon a time somebody told fans they will be allstars and 6 years later fans still won't let it go.
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#439 » by drsd » Tue May 12, 2020 9:00 am

AdonalFoyle4Prez wrote:
MasterGMer wrote:Wiggins and the NO.1 pick? I'd trade anybody except JI and Fultz


Our board is 50%/50% with Wiggins. For me, I'd like to say we keep him and attempt to transform his game into the ball movement that we play.

For me, I'd swap trades for our top-3 pick + TPE to get Evan Fournier + 15th pick. What do you guys think?


For me it would be swallowing WIggens to get the #1. I see it as a cost, not a benefit. His inability to play defense, at all, will make him a bench player in any team coached by Coach Clifford. But a back-up duo of Ross and Wiggens would be fun for 10 minutes a game!

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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#440 » by drsd » Tue May 12, 2020 9:09 am

MasterGMer wrote:
I think Jonathan Isaac is untouchable. Swap him with Gordon and swap Vucevic with Bamba. And I will do the deal



Bamba, Gordon, and the Orlando FRP in 2020 for Wiggens, Looney, and the Warriors FRP in 2020; I could easily get behind that trade!

Assuming the Magic draft Anthony Edwards, Founrier and Ennis re-up and that Carter-Williams and Birch resign, Orlando's roster starts as:

Fultz/Carter-Williams
Fournier/Ross/Edwards
Isaac/Wiggens/Ennis
Aminu/Okeke
Vučević/Looney/Birch

Immediately either Fournier or Ross would be traded for Forward depth and a future asset (say Frank Kaminsky and a Phoenix SRP in 2021). Add a couple LLE vets, and this looks like a real roster to develop! It should really take shape the year after next.



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