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Summer Trades...never too early

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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#61 » by pepe1991 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:59 pm

Knightro wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Nothing says good player more than -4,2 ORPM and 44% TS.
If only Heat's evolution center didn't run out of Superman- blood he would have been new Pippen.

If he is good player , Aminu is superstar.


So you're citing his 350 minute sample size of this season where he's battled numerous injuries over last year's 2000 minutes where he was significantly better?

Got it.


I'm so sorry, 48,6% TS for career on 9 ppg over 28 mpg is clear evidence Justic(s)e Winslow would have been new member of Justice Leaegue. it's in his damn name god damn it.
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#62 » by OrlandoNed » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:02 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Why Heat's evolution center didn't help Justice Winslow,Emanual Terry, Yante Maten, Jordan MIckey, Derrick Walton?

It doesn't matter why it didn't work out, it's the fact THAT it didn't work out. And because it didn't work out, the Heat acknowledged it and moved on in a timely manner unlike Orlando does.

Sidenote: The Heat went all-in on this season trading for Iggy and the injured Winslow was the price they had to pay for it. Have to give something to get something.
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#63 » by MagicMatic » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:03 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Magic matic also spoke about development of players who spent like 80 days with Heat before they become NBA starters so i should take any of that seriously? Or just part about games and wins?
if any of you guys think player can be developed in 2-3 months, than you are probably same people who buy detox teas and things like this
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This is like parody of this forum for this topic. People just write nonsense to see how far they can go with it.

I should try too. I think they should build team around Ennis. He brought winning mentality from Philadelphia so he is a leader. He also shoots at league average and therfore he should get 45% usage rate. In one game he had 3 assists, it's clear that we are dealing with case of hiden - Lebron here folks. Strap on, in Ennis we trust.



This is a good look for you pepe. Stick to schlock and making the forum “fun” again.

Should no one make trade centered around Evan and Vuc because you’re terrified of losing 5 more games?

Or is this a euro ball thing?

Yeah. I’m just making this **** up. That’s what your going to go with after getting called out per usual.


I feel like i'm being involved in internet prak, where posters who are normally - normal , now pretend that players who , at age of 24 probably play basketball for last 15 years, are being "developed" into good basketball players over 120 days.

I just can't.

This is too much for me, have to move away and laugh my a** off from comp before i get banned from trolling too hard.

Why Heat's evolution center didn't help Justice Winslow,Emanual Terry, Yante Maten, Jordan MIckey, Derrick Walton?
They runned off secret sauce? Frenkenstein failed to catch lighting? Dexter's labaratory was invaded by Didi?


Let’s go back to what originally set you off instead of diverging from the topic at hand, something that always seems to happen when people interact with you.

pepe1991 wrote:And ofc, if he is gone, it's already a given that Magic will be more s**+y next year than they are this year.
Especially if Dj and him walk. Pending 35 wins season.


This somehow devolved into a conversation about how Miami develops players better than Orlando. You don’t buy that they take chances and adapt players into conforming to their system. Sure, whatever.

Bottom line to the original conversation is that Orlando doesn’t take risks. Didn’t with moving AG, Fournier, Vuc, Ross, etc. However, there is literally no downside to them trying something different. They are in the worst possible situation being in the middle of the pack with a losing record and no way to get better rather than hoping their selections make extremely significant strides.

Miami takes risks. They’ll do whatever they can to win even if it means cutting bait from players that obviously don’t produce results. That’s something Orlando refuses to do.
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#64 » by GelbeWand09 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:05 pm

zaymon wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:

This is a good look for you pepe. Stick to schlock and making the forum “fun” again.

Should no one make trade centered around Evan and Vuc because you’re terrified of losing 5 more games?

Or is this a euro ball thing?

Yeah. I’m just making this **** up. That’s what your going to go with after getting called out per usual.


I feel like i'm being involved in internet prak, where posters who are normally - normal , now pretend that players who , at age of 24 probably play basketball for last 15 years, are being "developed" into good basketball players over 120 days.

I just can't.

This is too much for me, have to move away and laugh my a** off from comp before i get banned from trolling too hard.

Why Heat's evolution center didn't help Justice Winslow,Emanual Terry, Yante Maten, Jordan MIckey, Derrick Walton?
They runned off secret sauce? Frenkenstein failed to catch lighting? Dexter's labaratory was invaded by Didi?

Pepe what is happening here ? Does logic finally died and we live in a world of chaos ?


What happened to you ? You moved from level headed poster to passive aggressive to aggressive poster without putting any substance to the discussions the last few months. How about you try to counterargument some of the posts instead of moving the goalposts or pull a drama queen.

Me, Matic & Knightro wrote a ton of arguments. You & pepe only harp on some sidefacts just not to answer the real questions & arguments. And all this in drama queen style, why? Maybe read the whole discussion again tomorrow, with less bloodpressure & you see it yourself.
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#65 » by pepe1991 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:09 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:

This is a good look for you pepe. Stick to schlock and making the forum “fun” again.

Should no one make trade centered around Evan and Vuc because you’re terrified of losing 5 more games?

Or is this a euro ball thing?

Yeah. I’m just making this **** up. That’s what your going to go with after getting called out per usual.


I feel like i'm being involved in internet prak, where posters who are normally - normal , now pretend that players who , at age of 24 probably play basketball for last 15 years, are being "developed" into good basketball players over 120 days.

I just can't.

This is too much for me, have to move away and laugh my a** off from comp before i get banned from trolling too hard.

Why Heat's evolution center didn't help Justice Winslow,Emanual Terry, Yante Maten, Jordan MIckey, Derrick Walton?
They runned off secret sauce? Frenkenstein failed to catch lighting? Dexter's labaratory was invaded by Didi?


Let’s go back to what originally set you off instead of diverging from the topic at hand, something that always seems to happen when people interact with you.

pepe1991 wrote:And ofc, if he is gone, it's already a given that Magic will be more s**+y next year than they are this year.
Especially if Dj and him walk. Pending 35 wins season.


This somehow devolved into a conversation about how Miami develops players better than Orlando. You don’t buy that they take chances and adapt players into conforming to their system. Sure, whatever.

Bottom line to the original conversation is that Orlando doesn’t take risks. Didn’t with Fournier, Vuc, Ross, etc. However, there is literally no downside to them trying something different. They are in the worst possible situation being in the middle of the pack with a losing record and no way to get better rather than hoping their selections make extremely significant strides.

Miami takes risks. They’ll do whatever they can to win even if it means cutting bait from players that obviously don’t produce results. That’s something Orlando refuses to do.


Right now Magic are 8th of 15 teams.
So downside is to fall 7 slots below current one.

You love to pretend Magic are worst team on East and there is no worst than that, but there is.
Hawks, Hornets, Bulls, Knicks, Cavs and Pistons, Wizards are all worst. Right now each and every one of them would want to be 8th seed, yet they are incapable of jumping.
Why we know that's the case ? Because just look at their moves:

Cavs- took gamble on Drummond to be relevant now
Hawks- took on Capela to be relevant now
Wizards -resigned Beal to be relevant now
Bulls- signed Young, and Satoransky in offseson to be relevant now
Knicks- went for every single FA to be relevant now
Hornets- signed on Terry Rozier to not fall back to 10 wins season
Pistons - kept Rose to stay somewhat competitive and not fall off cliff


So nobody is activily trying to make roster worst any more. Nobody is tanking. In whole league nobody but Warriors really "tank" and they do it because they will use pick to add another player for championship run next year.
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#66 » by MagicMatic » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:22 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
I feel like i'm being involved in internet prak, where posters who are normally - normal , now pretend that players who , at age of 24 probably play basketball for last 15 years, are being "developed" into good basketball players over 120 days.

I just can't.

This is too much for me, have to move away and laugh my a** off from comp before i get banned from trolling too hard.

Why Heat's evolution center didn't help Justice Winslow,Emanual Terry, Yante Maten, Jordan MIckey, Derrick Walton?
They runned off secret sauce? Frenkenstein failed to catch lighting? Dexter's labaratory was invaded by Didi?


Let’s go back to what originally set you off instead of diverging from the topic at hand, something that always seems to happen when people interact with you.

pepe1991 wrote:And ofc, if he is gone, it's already a given that Magic will be more s**+y next year than they are this year.
Especially if Dj and him walk. Pending 35 wins season.


This somehow devolved into a conversation about how Miami develops players better than Orlando. You don’t buy that they take chances and adapt players into conforming to their system. Sure, whatever.

Bottom line to the original conversation is that Orlando doesn’t take risks. Didn’t with Fournier, Vuc, Ross, etc. However, there is literally no downside to them trying something different. They are in the worst possible situation being in the middle of the pack with a losing record and no way to get better rather than hoping their selections make extremely significant strides.

Miami takes risks. They’ll do whatever they can to win even if it means cutting bait from players that obviously don’t produce results. That’s something Orlando refuses to do.


Right now Magic are 8th of 15 teams.
So downside is to fall 7 slots below current one.

You love to pretend Magic are worst team on East and there is no worst than that, but there is.
Hawks, Hornets, Bulls, Knicks, Cavs and Pistons, Wizards are all worst. Right now each and every one of them would want to be 8th seed, yet they are incapable of jumping.
Why we know that's the case ? Because just look at their moves:

Cavs- took gamble on Drummond to be relevant now
Hawks- took on Capela to be relevant now
Wizards -resigned Beal to be relevant now
Bulls- signed Young, and Satoransky in offseson to be relevant now
Knicks- went for every single FA to be relevant now
Hornets- signed on Terry Rozier to not fall back to 10 wins season
Pistons - kept Rose to stay somewhat competitive and not fall off cliff


So nobody is activily trying to make roster worst any more. Nobody is tanking. In whole league nobody but Warriors really "tank" and they do it because they will use pick to add another player for championship run next year.


Since this is a trade thread I’ll stick to the topic.

I don’t know what you are reading exactly. I make the claim that Orlando never took risks in moving (trading) AG,Vuc, Ross, now Fournier and you somehow interpret that as me saying - tank. What?

I could care less about the other organizations and the stupid decisions they’ve made in the past leading them to their current situation(s). Orlando is making bad decisions NOW by tripling down on their roster that, when healthy, isn’t capable of exceeding a winning record. They went only +2 games over .500 last season with the healthiest roster imaginable in a contract/career season for Vuc and Ross. Coincidence? Nope

It’s all downhill from there.

When we look back at why Orlando still isn’t getting out of the first round 2-3 years from now we will remember the FO’s inability to move on from the status quo despite the results staring them in the face.

The problem with Orlando isn’t the players individually - it never has been. It’s entirely about the players as a collective whole. The roster hasn’t made sense for years and they’ve done nothing to alleviate that. They can’t even make decisions prior to overpaying the same roster. They could trade anyone on this roster not named Isaac and the resulting roster would probably make more sense.
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#67 » by zaymon » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:23 pm

GelbeWand09 wrote:
zaymon wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
I feel like i'm being involved in internet prak, where posters who are normally - normal , now pretend that players who , at age of 24 probably play basketball for last 15 years, are being "developed" into good basketball players over 120 days.

I just can't.

This is too much for me, have to move away and laugh my a** off from comp before i get banned from trolling too hard.

Why Heat's evolution center didn't help Justice Winslow,Emanual Terry, Yante Maten, Jordan MIckey, Derrick Walton?
They runned off secret sauce? Frenkenstein failed to catch lighting? Dexter's labaratory was invaded by Didi?

Pepe what is happening here ? Does logic finally died and we live in a world of chaos ?


What happened to you ? You moved from level headed poster to passive aggressive to aggressive poster without putting any substance to the discussions the last few months. How about you try to counterargument some of the posts instead of moving the goalposts or pull a drama queen.

Me, Matic & Knightro wrote a ton of arguments. You & pepe only harp on some sidefacts just not to answer the real questions & arguments. And all this in drama queen style, why? Maybe read the whole discussion again tomorrow, with less bloodpressure & you see it yourself.

How am i not putting any substance to the discussion ? I always do my research, sometimes over an hour of work to post something relevant and true. Its frustrating when i must fight against the FACTS, becouse no one wants to check themself. One is discussion about our future, and the other is reading badly informed, false posts.
High blood pressure is the "reward" for trying to be positive about our team, and realistic about other teams on this board.
Do it yourself, check every contract Miami Heat gave in the last 5 years, check how long a player is on a team before you write somebody developed them. Do it, and then you will see how i feel when someone who didnt bother to check tries to argue with you.
My money is on Banchero going number 1 !
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#68 » by pepe1991 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:38 pm

GelbeWand09 wrote:
zaymon wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
I feel like i'm being involved in internet prak, where posters who are normally - normal , now pretend that players who , at age of 24 probably play basketball for last 15 years, are being "developed" into good basketball players over 120 days.

I just can't.

This is too much for me, have to move away and laugh my a** off from comp before i get banned from trolling too hard.

Why Heat's evolution center didn't help Justice Winslow,Emanual Terry, Yante Maten, Jordan MIckey, Derrick Walton?
They runned off secret sauce? Frenkenstein failed to catch lighting? Dexter's labaratory was invaded by Didi?

Pepe what is happening here ? Does logic finally died and we live in a world of chaos ?


What happened to you ? You moved from level headed poster to passive aggressive to aggressive poster without putting any substance to the discussions the last few months. How about you try to counterargument some of the posts instead of moving the goalposts or pull a drama queen.

Me, Matic & Knightro wrote a ton of arguments. You & pepe only harp on some sidefacts just not to answer the real questions & arguments. And all this in drama queen style, why? Maybe read the whole discussion again tomorrow, with less bloodpressure & you see it yourself.


I don't harp about side-effect i literally mock mindset about nonsense that some 25 years old can be developed over 90 days of "boot camp" in Miami.

That notion is definition of nonsense.

Why Waiters ( 25 at arrival, former 4# pick ) and Winslow ( 19 years old rookie at times) were not turned into superstars by working with same people ,same system and same "evolution center" that allegedly transformed nobodies : Whiteside, Nunn, Duncan Robinson and Herro ( this is funniest example by wide margin,as guy was litearlly lottery pick) ?

What happend ? Lab runned out of energy? System overheated in middle of operation?

Maybe just maybe Whiteside always had talent, just did not have clear head to become nba player until he was casted off nba, and out of G league and was in China ?
Just a reminder, at college he averaged: 13 points, 9 rebound and freaking 5,4 blocks a game.

Kendrick Nunn and Duncan Robinson DOMINATED in G league last year. One 19 ppg, other 23 ppg. DUncan Robinson shot almost 50% for 3. He did not wake up one day , attemped Heat evolution center for 30 days and returned as Klay Thompson.
In his first year at college he shot 95/211 (45% ) for 3.
Guy always had elite jumpshot.

Kendrick Nunn averaged 25,9 ppg at college on 48,9% FG, 39,4% for 3 and 84% FTs.
Justl like everybody else, he did NOT knocked on Heat's door of "develomental studies and operations for superhumans" and become good, he was by most odds, always really,really good scorer that other teams did not notice because , as like it's case in most of the time, most scouts and GMs just fap over " Untapped Potential" and nobody wants 24 years old rookie.


Heat takes on players other teams simply overlook.


But most important part about all this is part that Knighto, MM and you conveniently left out of your points: Jimmy Butlerr and Goran Dragić. 31 and 34 years old vets that are heart of Miami Heat. ( not to mention Haslem who is still on roster, for i belive 14 years ) .
Why you didn't bring them up ? For simple reason: They do not fit your "young = sucess, everything selse = failure" agenda. They present everything you try to target on Orlando as issue. They are their Vučević and Fournier.

I could approach this topic way more serious than i did, and i feel no regrets, just a notion that guys belive 25 years old player can be developed over 1 summer is funny enough to not take whole topic too serious.
Maybe we could borrow them Iwundu ? He'll return as


HEEEEEEEEMAAAAAAAAAAN

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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#69 » by MagicMatic » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:46 pm

Yeah.

Miami has 2/5 vets starting at the most important positions in the modern nba - PG and SF

Orlando has the opposite 3/5 vets starting at the positions that provide far less - C, PF, and SG

Oh yeah, and none of those vets are true all stars.

Look at those results tho!

Sorry I left that out for you Pepe. Carry on.
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#70 » by Bensational » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:52 pm

zaymon wrote:
tiderulz wrote:
zaymon wrote:GSW is smart, they are building players value (even while losing) and then they deal them. I think even a horse would look great next to Curry and Klay, Wiggins value should go up. But we know how Wiggins looks on worse teams, i would trade nothing for him.

they didnt build Russell's value. that was a bad trade for them.

I think they still gained more than they spent.


Of course they did, because they used cap space as an asset.

They had cleverly planned books and incredibly convenient jumps in cap space, and they were able to add a MAX Kevin Durant to a team that already had Curry, Klay, Draymond and Iggy. Then they s&t'd that free agent and managed to get D'Lo in return instead of losing Durant for nothing. Although I suppose Durant came at an expense, as GSW had to let Harrison Barnes walk, and he was a former #7 pick they had spent a season tanking for.

Now, they're continuing to roll the value of that original asset attainted via cap space into more prospects that they can continue to shop around the league.
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#71 » by pepe1991 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:56 pm

Haslem (39) never plays, there for leadership
Igoudala- (36) traded for 23 years old
Dragić (34) - 28 mpg, defacto starter' level min
James Jonson-( 32) started half of the games he played
Jimmy Butler ( 31) star
Jae Crowder ( 30) new addition
Kelly Olynk ( 29) rotation peace
Leonard ( 28) starting 5


It's almost like it's easy to add young players when you have such a established veteran group oups. Doesn't fit agenda. Gotta delite that. Must all this be product of Ninja boot camp Heat holds over summer.

DeVeLoPMeNt.

Heat's evolution center works miracles for years. Especially when they for purpose of winning title developed Chris Bosh, Lebron James of years before Shaq.
What an amazing develomental group they have :oops:
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#72 » by zaymon » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:11 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Haslem (39) never plays, there for leadership
Igoudala- (36) traded for 23 years old
Dragić (34) - 28 mpg, defacto starter' level min
James Jonson-( 32) started half of the games he played
Jimmy Butler ( 31) star
Jae Crowder ( 30) new addition
Kelly Olynk ( 29) rotation peace
Leonard ( 28) starting 5


It's almost like it's easy to add young players when you have such a established veteran group oups. Doesn't fit agenda. Gotta delite that. Must all this be product of Ninja boot camp Heat holds over summer.

DeVeLoPMeNt.

Heat's evolution center works miracles for years. Especially when they for purpose of winning title developed Chris Bosh, Lebron James of years before Shaq.
What an amazing develomental group they have :oops:

The most sad thing is we agree that Heat win model is not bad. Miami Heat RESIGNED their veterans on more than fair deals. They play a small amount of young players, becouse that is good for player development. Resigning Vucevic and Ross is a Riley move, even resigning Gordon is a Riley move. I am certain Riley wouldnt think twice about resigning Fournier. He resigned worse players.
People here admire the Heat, but they want to do exactly opposite- trade veterans, play only young players.
BTW Heat cashed on most of their assets, and they are not even a true contender. I wonder how all of their unathletic shooters play in the post season.
My money is on Banchero going number 1 !
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#73 » by Knightro » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:30 pm

If you choose to believe that the Miami Heat do not have an A+ player development program compared to the rest of the NBA when they've turned more non-top 10 first round picks, second round picks and undrafted players into NBA rotation caliber guys than basically the rest of the league combined, then you're just being willingly ignorant to the situation.

Call it good scouting. Call it good coaching. Call it whatever you want to call it. It's factual information.

The Heat have developed a huge number of players who have outproduced their draft slot over the last 6-8 years. That is just a simple fact.

And the guys that don't work out are the guys they typically move on from really quickly.
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#74 » by Bensational » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:32 pm

zaymon wrote:
GelbeWand09 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
And?

What’s the difference between a 30 win team and a 35 win team in the grand scheme? Nothing, it’s still an inconsequential **** nba team.
At least the former will be getting better draft odds and won’t be overpaying crap players to get +5 wins.


Excactly. The smart teams in our situation try to get 4 producing young players or veterans on 10-12 mil contracts instead of 2 for 45 mil. When you are not a contender & not a rebuilding team you need flexibility more than everything. You need players you can trade everytime when a opportunity pops up like Houston, Miami, Indiana are doing.

Miami who everyone loves to compare us too did the same thing we are doing. They resigned their veterans and gathered their assets. NEVER TANKED. How can anyone bring Miami in this conversation and wont even check what they did for the last few years ?


Miami did what we did - resigned their free agents to large and lucrative extensions. Dragic, Whiteside, Tyler Johnson, Waiters, James Johnson.

With their 1 #5 pick and mid-first round picks, they drafted Winslow, Bam, Richardson and now Herro and Nunn.

Of the 5 prior seasons, since LeBron left, they were a fringe playoff team that made it 2/5 times. Where are they now?

Whiteside has been traded as a bloated contract. Miami quickly realised how empty his stats are after signing him to big money. WeHam are learning that now with Vuc. Richardson was traded to acquire Butler which kickstarted this new rebuild around a 30 year old wing. Winslow was traded with the bloated contract of James Johnson and Dion Waiters for the 36 year old Igoudala on a 2 year $30M extension (expensive move for veteran presence), Jae Crowder and Solomon Hill.

The difference between Miami and us is they reached the point of knowing Whiteside, Dragic and Richardson weren't going to carry them anywhere, so they moved on from them and started a new identity and it IMMEDIATELY improved the team. That's where we are with Vuc and Fournier right now. They traded some good value youth to fill out veteran presence, which might cost them down the line. Perhaps we have to do that with Gordon? Or perhaps the Jimmy Butler equivalent we trade Vuc and Fournier for can unlock a new gear in him like Jimmy has with Bam?

So yeah, maybe we are looking to follow their path. The difference is they're fresh off a 15 year window in which they won 3 championships and they have a legacy GM in Riley. But even he was smart enough to move on from his dead weight and kept flipping pieces until he found a winner. If you really want to be like Miami, you should be cheering to trade Vuc and Fournier.
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#75 » by OrlandoNed » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:45 pm

Bensational wrote:
zaymon wrote:
GelbeWand09 wrote:
Excactly. The smart teams in our situation try to get 4 producing young players or veterans on 10-12 mil contracts instead of 2 for 45 mil. When you are not a contender & not a rebuilding team you need flexibility more than everything. You need players you can trade everytime when a opportunity pops up like Houston, Miami, Indiana are doing.

Miami who everyone loves to compare us too did the same thing we are doing. They resigned their veterans and gathered their assets. NEVER TANKED. How can anyone bring Miami in this conversation and wont even check what they did for the last few years ?


Miami did what we did - resigned their free agents to large and lucrative extensions. Dragic, Whiteside, Tyler Johnson, Waiters, James Johnson.

With their 1 #5 pick and mid-first round picks, they drafted Winslow, Bam, Richardson and now Herro and Nunn.

Of the 5 prior seasons, since LeBron left, they were a fringe playoff team that made it 2/5 times. Where are they now?

Whiteside has been traded as a bloated contract. Miami quickly realised how empty his stats are after signing him to big money. WeHam are learning that now with Vuc. Richardson was traded to acquire Butler which kickstarted this new rebuild around a 30 year old wing. Winslow was traded with the bloated contract of James Johnson and Dion Waiters for the 36 year old Igoudala on a 2 year $30M extension (expensive move for veteran presence), Jae Crowder and Solomon Hill.

The difference between Miami and us is they reached the point of knowing Whiteside, Dragic and Richardson weren't going to carry them anywhere, so they moved on from them and started a new identity and it IMMEDIATELY improved the team. That's where we are with Vuc and Fournier right now. They traded some good value youth to fill out veteran presence, which might cost them down the line. Perhaps we have to do that with Gordon? Or perhaps the Jimmy Butler equivalent we trade Vuc and Fournier for can unlock a new gear in him like Jimmy has with Bam?

So yeah, maybe we are looking to follow their path. The difference is they're fresh off a 15 year window in which they won 3 championships and they have a legacy GM in Riley. But even he was smart enough to move on from his dead weight and kept flipping pieces until he found a winner. If you really want to be like Miami, you should be cheering to trade Vuc and Fournier.

Good GMs know when and who to punt on.
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#76 » by PrimeThyme » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:46 pm

Trying to argue that the Miami Heat don't excel at player development is a weird hill to die on.
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#77 » by Knightro » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:01 pm

PrimeThyme wrote:Trying to argue that the Miami Heat don't excel at player development is a weird hill to die on.


Not only is Miami one of the NBA's leaders in player development/scouting, their front office also understands that "continuity" is overrated if you have a really strong culture and coaching staff, which they clearly have.

They are willing and able to pivot away from the guys who aren't working without batting an eye.
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#78 » by Bensational » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:02 pm

Skybox wrote:https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7287074

Orl sends Vuc, lotto protected 2021 pick
GSW sends Wiggins



This deal makes sense for both teams. GSW get a C who can space, pass and defend, who's on a declining contract which should help with luxury tax concerns. But his contract might also be why they don't want to make that deal. I keep thinking they might prefer to flip Wiggins for a few smaller pieces on good value contracts to fill out their depth. Plus, I read a quote from the GSW GM who said he liked that Wiggins is a big athletic body they can throw at LeBron/Kawhi. I don't actually think he's up for that challenge at all, but if that's what they want out of that role then Gordon is the perfect fit, and he's cheaper. So a Gordon/Wiggins flip seems more likely, IMO.

But, I also feel like Gordon is the guy you don't want to give away yet. Not until we put him in a position to maximise his his value. He's the guy I imagine will be a big difference maker in the playoffs. The Igoudala/Draymond type who propels next level defense.

I'm still a Wiggins believer. I'll probably be wrong for it, but I'm happy to take the chance. I believe Fultz/Wiggins could be just as good for us as Ja/Brooks are for Memphis. But I also think they'll need the right balance for that team to work. Memphis are probably a great model for us to follow, to be honest, and they're competing for the playoffs in the West.

Valanciunas - Bamba
JJJr - Isaac
Winslow - Gordon
Brooks - Wiggins
Morant - Fultz

Bamba isn't enough of a banger to give us what Val gives Memphis, but he would also offer us 3pt shooting from the C spot. Isaac needs to improve his 3's a lot to match JJJr, but if he does, he becomes a superstar with that and his defense. Fultz needs to improve his 3pt%, obvs, but Morant only takes 2 a game so he's not lighting the world on fire with his range yet. Brooks/Wiggins and Winslow/Gordon are pretty comparable.

You get a young core like that, show they can be competitive, and that's when you can start finding value trades for disgruntled stars and consolidate some of your youth for them. But with expensive ageing veterans, that's when you end up with a Whiteside for Myers Leonard and junk trade (though Leonard has given them good bench minutes this season).
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#79 » by pepe1991 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:04 pm

Knightro wrote:If you choose to believe that the Miami Heat do not have an A+ player development program compared to the rest of the NBA when they've turned more non-top 10 first round picks, second round picks and undrafted players into NBA rotation caliber guys than basically the rest of the league combined, then you're just being willingly ignorant to the situation.

Call it good scouting. Call it good coaching. Call it whatever you want to call it. It's factual information.

The Heat have developed a huge number of players who have outproduced their draft slot over the last 6-8 years. That is just a simple fact.

And the guys that don't work out are the guys they typically move on from really quickly.


People used to belive in illusoin of Spurs "develomental" program when they were using Europe to get most of their talents from without needing to win lottery to do so.
For mainstream american media it HAD to be something that 'muricans did to them "develop " them, God forbid admitting basketball existed outside their bubble.

So it was such a miracle of "development" for them that 25 years old , Euroleague's MVP, who did something unthinkable in Argentina and Europe can actually be good at basketball. Manu DOMINATED Europe hoops like only some biggest stars did. He won Euroleague with minor team, last guy who did it : no big deal, HOF Toni Kukoć. :wink:


Same team using adventage of stupidity and ignorance once more 2000 draft was garbage. Did you know who was best player in hoops summit in 2000? Tony Parker. Do you know what he did there ? 20 points, 7 assists. How he ended up in second round ? Because he refused to come and play college basketball. Not talent, not development , just stigma.
Second best player from that draft, drafted 16# -Hedo Turkogulu.
Who were top 3 picks : Kenyon " i can't do anything but dunk lobs" Martin, one of biggest draft busts ever Stromile Swift and Darius " my only basketball skill is better used at high jumps than basketball " Miles.


Heat targets specific needs that they need and find players that fit that specific needs. When they need scorer- they go for scorer. When they need shooters they target best shooters. It's easy logic and execution of their moves.
There is nothing super complicated about taking 2 great G league guys in mid 20s and implementing their skills in nba. Why Magic can't do it? Because their front office has other "agenda" and belives wingspan and defense is winning basketball.

Riley's contcept of sucess is to never become bad and never think too much about future that might or may not come.

Under Pat Riley, a Heat coach or executive since 1995, the team has relentlessly pursued winning. Under Spoelstra, the Heat head coach since 2008, the team has never tanked.

“This is what pro sports is supposed to be about,” Spoelstra told The Crossover. “Competing every night. To try to win. Not the opposite. Obviously not every year you are going to have a realistic chance to compete for a title. Since I have been here, working for Pat, from day 1, that has always been the directive. For me, that brings great clarity. Keep the main thing the main thing. And everything else is just b ---- t.”


Riley is as against everything half of this forum wants.
Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. -John Lennon
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Re: Summer Trades...never too early 

Post#80 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:05 pm

Bensational wrote:
Skybox wrote:https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7287074

Orl sends Vuc, lotto protected 2021 pick
GSW sends Wiggins



This deal makes sense for both teams. GSW get a C who can space, pass and defend, who's on a declining contract which should help with luxury tax concerns. But his contract might also be why they don't want to make that deal. I keep thinking they might prefer to flip Wiggins for a few smaller pieces on good value contracts to fill out their depth. Plus, I read a quote from the GSW GM who said he liked that Wiggins is a big athletic body they can throw at LeBron/Kawhi. I don't actually think he's up for that challenge at all, but if that's what they want out of that role then Gordon is the perfect fit, and he's cheaper. So a Gordon/Wiggins flip seems more likely, IMO.

But, I also feel like Gordon is the guy you don't want to give away yet. Not until we put him in a position to maximise his his value. He's the guy I imagine will be a big difference maker in the playoffs. The Igoudala/Draymond type who propels next level defense.

I'm still a Wiggins believer. I'll probably be wrong for it, but I'm happy to take the chance. I believe Fultz/Wiggins could be just as good for us as Ja/Brooks are for Memphis. But I also think they'll need the right balance for that team to work. Memphis are probably a great model for us to follow, to be honest, and they're competing for the playoffs in the West.

Valanciunas - Bamba
JJJr - Isaac
Winslow - Gordon
Brooks - Wiggins
Morant - Fultz

Bamba isn't enough of a banger to give us what Val gives Memphis, but he would also offer us 3pt shooting from the C spot. Isaac needs to improve his 3's a lot to match JJJr, but if he does, he becomes a superstar with that and his defense. Fultz needs to improve his 3pt%, obvs, but Morant only takes 2 a game so he's not lighting the world on fire with his range yet. Brooks/Wiggins and Winslow/Gordon are pretty comparable.

You get a young core like that, show they can be competitive, and that's when you can start finding value trades for disgruntled stars and consolidate some of your youth for them. But with expensive ageing veterans, that's when you end up with a Whiteside for Myers Leonard and junk trade (though Leonard has given them good bench minutes this season).


Golden State can just take Wiseman in the draft and not give up Wiggins... There is 0 way an organization as smart as the Warriors is interested in Vuc. GS just needs a C to rebound be a defensive monster while setting screens and what not
A scoring guard.. never heard of one. :roll:

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