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Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory

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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#1841 » by Knightro » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:49 pm

MagicMatic wrote:That’s similar to asking “we have Fultz do we need Luka Doncic?”

We need talent in all forms.


This.

I like Fultz, but he's certainly not proven enough to justify passing up an elite talent at his position.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#1842 » by MoMM » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:05 pm

Knightro wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:That’s similar to asking “we have Fultz do we need Luka Doncic?”

We need talent in all forms.


This.

I like Fultz, but he's certainly not proven enough to justify passing up an elite talent at his position.

Even if he was the real thing, imagine if the Spurs had passed TD in favor of Van Horn because TD can't play along with DRob?
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#1843 » by MagicMatic » Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:56 pm

Knightro wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:That’s similar to asking “we have Fultz do we need Luka Doncic?”

We need talent in all forms.


This.

I like Fultz, but he's certainly not proven enough to justify passing up an elite talent at his position.


Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for “opportunity” and giving players the best shot at success when utilizing draft picks...

When we are talking about era defining talent, that whole idea gets thrown out the window entirely.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#1844 » by zaymon » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:04 pm

The question is not do we want Cunnighan. The questions are:
How much worse do we need to get to have a shot at him.
What is the propability of getting him.
Will he be a star.
How bad it will be when we miss on him.
Will we be able to build around him after we trade veterans.
How much will we lose on internal improvement, extension negotiations, free agent deals.
Bold Predictions:
1. Deandre Ayton biggest disappointment of 2018 draft.
2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#1845 » by MagicMatic » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:00 pm

zaymon wrote:The question is not do we want Cunnighan. The questions are:
How much worse do we need to get to have a shot at him.
What is the propability of getting him.
Will he be a star.
How bad it will be when we miss on him.
Will we be able to build around him after we trade veterans.
How much will we lose on internal improvement, extension negotiations, free agent deals.


We would need to trade a package involving AG, or ship Vucevic away for prospects, filler, and picks.

Next years draft is absolutely stacked with talent at the top. It would be the best year to tank, similar to 2018.

The year is already shot with Isaac out. Internal improvement would be getting #15, Okeke, Fultz, and Bamba healthy and acclimated to playing real minutes in an nba season.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#1846 » by Bensational » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:47 am

MagicMatic wrote:
zaymon wrote:The question is not do we want Cunnighan. The questions are:
How much worse do we need to get to have a shot at him.
What is the propability of getting him.
Will he be a star.
How bad it will be when we miss on him.
Will we be able to build around him after we trade veterans.
How much will we lose on internal improvement, extension negotiations, free agent deals.


We would need to trade a package involving AG, or ship Vucevic away for prospects, filler, and picks.

Next years draft is absolutely stacked with talent at the top. It would be the best year to tank, similar to 2018.

The year is already shot with Isaac out. Internal improvement would be getting #15, Okeke, Fultz, and Bamba healthy and acclimated to playing real minutes in an nba season.


I would be shocked if WeHam tanked. They seem much more inclined to try for playoffs, and if they miss out, hope for lottery luck from the back 5. Perhaps then they look to package Vuc + that pick + assets for Cunningham, if the other team would bite? We need one more good asset to become clear between now and then. Maybe our 2020 pick? Or Okeke?
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#1847 » by MagicMatic » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:16 am

Bensational wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
zaymon wrote:The question is not do we want Cunnighan. The questions are:
How much worse do we need to get to have a shot at him.
What is the propability of getting him.
Will he be a star.
How bad it will be when we miss on him.
Will we be able to build around him after we trade veterans.
How much will we lose on internal improvement, extension negotiations, free agent deals.


We would need to trade a package involving AG, or ship Vucevic away for prospects, filler, and picks.

Next years draft is absolutely stacked with talent at the top. It would be the best year to tank, similar to 2018.

The year is already shot with Isaac out. Internal improvement would be getting #15, Okeke, Fultz, and Bamba healthy and acclimated to playing real minutes in an nba season.


I would be shocked if WeHam tanked. They seem much more inclined to try for playoffs, and if they miss out, hope for lottery luck from the back 5. Perhaps then they look to package Vuc + that pick + assets for Cunningham, if the other team would bite? We need one more good asset to become clear between now and then. Maybe our 2020 pick? Or Okeke?


What they will do and what they should do are different things entirely.

I don’t believe they’ll actually do it, but I think it’s the best way of getting a real star level player.

I don’t believe Orlando has the assets to trade for a top 3-5 pick in next years draft. In other words, they’d have to earn it.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#1848 » by Bensational » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:54 am

MagicMatic wrote:
Bensational wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
We would need to trade a package involving AG, or ship Vucevic away for prospects, filler, and picks.

Next years draft is absolutely stacked with talent at the top. It would be the best year to tank, similar to 2018.

The year is already shot with Isaac out. Internal improvement would be getting #15, Okeke, Fultz, and Bamba healthy and acclimated to playing real minutes in an nba season.


I would be shocked if WeHam tanked. They seem much more inclined to try for playoffs, and if they miss out, hope for lottery luck from the back 5. Perhaps then they look to package Vuc + that pick + assets for Cunningham, if the other team would bite? We need one more good asset to become clear between now and then. Maybe our 2020 pick? Or Okeke?


What they will do and what they should do are different things entirely.

I don’t believe they’ll actually do it, but I think it’s the best way of getting a real star level player.

I don’t believe Orlando has the assets to trade for a top 3-5 pick in next years draft. In other words, they’d have to earn it.


Yeah, I'm down for ideal scenario plans too, but trying to figure out how to do it within the limitations of WeHam is the real challenge.

The one bonus is the new draft odds, because we'll never tank and drop into bottom 3 rankings intentionally.

Trading for that Minny 21 pick could be worth the gamble. Not sure what it would cost to pry it from GSW. Vuc + Gordon/Fournier for Wiggins + Min 21 would both sabotage us - but whilst adding a player who could be framed as a 'big addition' - and give us another ticket in the draw.

Bamba/Birch
Gordon/Clark/(Isaac)
Ennis/Okeke
Wiggins/Ross
Fultz/Lewis

Can WeHam convince themselves that the 'young veterans' would keep us competitive enough for their playoff aspirations? Or do they hope they've bought enough good faith from the FO that one down season followed by a ton of cap space in a good offseason and two potentially high picks are seen as worth it?

That's assuming Bamba/Gordon/Wiggins/Fultz
don't become the GOATs Pepe keeps claiming they all can become. 8-)
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#1849 » by MagicMatic » Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:21 am

Bensational wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Bensational wrote:
I would be shocked if WeHam tanked. They seem much more inclined to try for playoffs, and if they miss out, hope for lottery luck from the back 5. Perhaps then they look to package Vuc + that pick + assets for Cunningham, if the other team would bite? We need one more good asset to become clear between now and then. Maybe our 2020 pick? Or Okeke?


What they will do and what they should do are different things entirely.

I don’t believe they’ll actually do it, but I think it’s the best way of getting a real star level player.

I don’t believe Orlando has the assets to trade for a top 3-5 pick in next years draft. In other words, they’d have to earn it.


Yeah, I'm down for ideal scenario plans too, but trying to figure out how to do it within the limitations of WeHam is the real challenge.

The one bonus is the new draft odds, because we'll never tank and drop into bottom 3 rankings intentionally.

Trading for that Minny 21 pick could be worth the gamble. Not sure what it would cost to pry it from GSW. Vuc + Gordon/Fournier for Wiggins + Min 21 would both sabotage us - but whilst adding a player who could be framed as a 'big addition' - and give us another ticket in the draw.

Bamba/Birch
Gordon/Clark/(Isaac)
Ennis/Okeke
Wiggins/Ross
Fultz/Lewis

Can WeHam convince themselves that the 'young veterans' would keep us competitive enough for their playoff aspirations? Or do they hope they've bought enough good faith from the FO that one down season followed by a ton of cap space in a good offseason and two potentially high picks are seen as worth it?

That's assuming Bamba/Gordon/Wiggins/Fultz
don't become the GOATs Pepe keeps claiming they all can become. 8-)


Yeah, they will need to make such a move eventually. Picking later in the first round, with first round exits, isn’t going to get it done in terms of finding a player to build around.

I’m not entirely sure what value AG/Vuc/Fournier have individually. Golden State fans seem to think it’s an overpay for their pick + Wiggins. Edwards/Hayes/Avdija seem like the only players I’d bet have the potential to be stars. Next years draft is infinitely better.

Hopefully this FO can make a move knowing this. Doubtful they will.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#1850 » by pepe1991 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:01 am

Bensational wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Bensational wrote:
I would be shocked if WeHam tanked. They seem much more inclined to try for playoffs, and if they miss out, hope for lottery luck from the back 5. Perhaps then they look to package Vuc + that pick + assets for Cunningham, if the other team would bite? We need one more good asset to become clear between now and then. Maybe our 2020 pick? Or Okeke?


What they will do and what they should do are different things entirely.

I don’t believe they’ll actually do it, but I think it’s the best way of getting a real star level player.

I don’t believe Orlando has the assets to trade for a top 3-5 pick in next years draft. In other words, they’d have to earn it.


Yeah, I'm down for ideal scenario plans too, but trying to figure out how to do it within the limitations of WeHam is the real challenge.

The one bonus is the new draft odds, because we'll never tank and drop into bottom 3 rankings intentionally.

Trading for that Minny 21 pick could be worth the gamble. Not sure what it would cost to pry it from GSW. Vuc + Gordon/Fournier for Wiggins + Min 21 would both sabotage us - but whilst adding a player who could be framed as a 'big addition' - and give us another ticket in the draw.

Bamba/Birch
Gordon/Clark/(Isaac)
Ennis/Okeke
Wiggins/Ross
Fultz/Lewis

Can WeHam convince themselves that the 'young veterans' would keep us competitive enough for their playoff aspirations? Or do they hope they've bought enough good faith from the FO that one down season followed by a ton of cap space in a good offseason and two potentially high picks are seen as worth it?

That's assuming Bamba/Gordon/Wiggins/Fultz
don't become the GOATs Pepe keeps claiming they all can become. 8-)



:lol:

Main reason why teams don't do this is because it's suicide move.

You are departing every single player that is lockerroom leader and change him for 19 years old kids and one of worst nba contracts who has history of being lazy, selfish player that never did anything for a teams he played on and who tends to just play for his PPGs. That is same guy who is for years one of worst 6'8 or taller rebounder. He just does not care. Put young kids next to him and what are you telling them? Don't do anything for a team, play video games, feud with good players, average 20 points on 20 wins team and max contract is for you after 4 years? His body is best body of (no) work done. Entered nba as skinny guy with no muscles, everybody was up in arms how he has great frame and how in no time he will look like Kawhi Leonard or something like that. Almost 7 years passed guy is still toothpick that can't take contact.

And about Warriors pick. Who you even take at 2#?
Wiseman is BPA. So another center? I assume Edwards is gone, where are you really going? Lamelo Ball? And Wiggins? That combo has potential to become most toxic combo since Jail Blazers were a thing.

Hayes is guard who needs ball, so it moves Fultz to bench. Avdija ? With Okeke, isaac, Gordon it's another SF-PF player.
There is no objective reason to reach for 2# pick just to draft Vassell who probably won't be taken before 7th spot.

There is simply so little that Magic can gain with that pick. Second round pick here sounds WAAAAY more sexy than you see who you can get with it. Once you start going through names you figure that pick does not have anywhere near value as it sounds it has.

Now you are moving to 2021 season with complete lack of interest to be competitive ( well you added Wiggns, so wins were never an option ). Tank, get 4th pick for example. Team still has no salary ...

Wiggins $31M
Fultz ( projected $15M)
Isaac ( projected $18M)
Bamba $6M
2020 pick $8M
Ross $12M
Gordon $16M
2021 pick $8M
Okeke $5M

That's around $119 M commited to tanking roster :dontknow:

Even on first look you there is some massive objective problem with that roster. Nobody can shoot. Outside of unnamed 2020 and 2021 pick, nobody can even score with any efficiency.

Until Wiggins does not get a F out ( in 2024) you won't ba able to do anything in FA.

Sad reality of building through draft is games, days and weeks when you are getting exited about Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk because he scored 25 points against Atlanta, where on other side John Collins scored 20 while having plus minus of -31 in 27 min, while allowing Drummond to grab 7 offensive rebounds in 27 min... Yet you are lying to yourself how great Collins and Young are because they put up 20+ points while losing by 40. NBA hell is rebuilding and selling illusion of bright future. While almost not a single "built through draft" small market team ever won championship.
ONce you reach rock bottom, you finally understand how far from mediocrity you really are.

I still see no objecitve reason why would Magic be so desparate to get into top 5 2020 pick. Especially in year where teams that actually have top 3 picks, are all looking how to trade down, because they don't see any upside in drafting high.
And talking about 2021 as some god given draft is also silly. Nassir Little went from projected top 5 pick two years ago, to being benched behind Mario Hezonja.
Cade Cunningham, projected 1# pick comparison is "stronger Shaun Livingstone, smaller Ben Simmons".. so if everything goes right, maybe top 30 player one day?
Jalen Green " lite Kobe" so... rich man JR Smith ?
Brandon Boston- Jeremy Lamb? Where is my " abort mission button" ?

Image


In minds of fans picks always sound better than players. Winning lottery always sounds better than drafting James Wiseman. Winning lottery always sounds more promising than drafting Ayton, especially if alternative ends up being superstar. But most of the time,team does not win lottery and ends up with some project .
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#1851 » by MagicMatic » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:03 am

pepe1991 wrote:
Bensational wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
What they will do and what they should do are different things entirely.

I don’t believe they’ll actually do it, but I think it’s the best way of getting a real star level player.

I don’t believe Orlando has the assets to trade for a top 3-5 pick in next years draft. In other words, they’d have to earn it.


Yeah, I'm down for ideal scenario plans too, but trying to figure out how to do it within the limitations of WeHam is the real challenge.

The one bonus is the new draft odds, because we'll never tank and drop into bottom 3 rankings intentionally.

Trading for that Minny 21 pick could be worth the gamble. Not sure what it would cost to pry it from GSW. Vuc + Gordon/Fournier for Wiggins + Min 21 would both sabotage us - but whilst adding a player who could be framed as a 'big addition' - and give us another ticket in the draw.

Bamba/Birch
Gordon/Clark/(Isaac)
Ennis/Okeke
Wiggins/Ross
Fultz/Lewis

Can WeHam convince themselves that the 'young veterans' would keep us competitive enough for their playoff aspirations? Or do they hope they've bought enough good faith from the FO that one down season followed by a ton of cap space in a good offseason and two potentially high picks are seen as worth it?

That's assuming Bamba/Gordon/Wiggins/Fultz
don't become the GOATs Pepe keeps claiming they all can become. 8-)



:lol:

Main reason why teams don't do this is because it's suicide move.

You are departing every single player that is lockerroom leader and change him for 19 years old kids and one of worst nba contracts who has history of being lazy, selfish player that never did anything for a teams he played on and who tends to just play for his PPGs. That is same guy who is for years one of worst 6'8 or taller rebounder. He just does not care. Put young kids next to him and what are you telling them? Don't do anything for a team, play video games, feud with good players, average 20 points on 20 wins team and max contract is for you after 4 years? His body is best body of (no) work done. Entered nba as skinny guy with no muscles, everybody was up in arms how he has great frame and how in no time he will look like Kawhi Leonard or something like that. Almost 7 years passed guy is still toothpick that can't take contact.

And about Warriors pick. Who you even take at 2#?
Wiseman is BPA. So another center? I assume Edwards is gone, where are you really going? Lamelo Ball? And Wiggins? That combo has potential to become most toxic combo since Jail Blazers were a thing.

Hayes is guard who needs ball, so it moves Fultz to bench. Avdija ? With Okeke, isaac, Gordon it's another SF-PF player.
There is no objective reason to reach for 2# pick just to draft Vassell who probably won't be taken before 7th spot.

There is simply so little that Magic can gain with that pick. Second round pick here sounds WAAAAY more sexy than you see who you can get with it. Once you start going through names you figure that pick does not have anywhere near value as it sounds it has.

Now you are moving to 2021 season with complete lack of interest to be competitive ( well you added Wiggns, so wins were never an option ). Tank, get 4th pick for example. Team still has no salary ...

Wiggins $31M
Fultz ( projected $15M)
Isaac ( projected $18M)
Bamba $6M
2020 pick $8M
Ross $12M
Gordon $16M
2021 pick $8M
Okeke $5M

That's around $119 M commited to tanking roster :dontknow:

Spoiler:
Even on first look you there is some massive objective problem with that roster. Nobody can shoot. Outside of unnamed 2020 and 2021 pick, nobody can even score with any efficiency.

Until Wiggins does not get a F out ( in 2024) you won't ba able to do anything in FA.

Sad reality of building through draft is games, days and weeks when you are getting exited about Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk because he scored 25 points against Atlanta, where on other side John Collins scored 20 while having plus minus of -31 in 27 min, while allowing Drummond to grab 7 offensive rebounds in 27 min... Yet you are lying to yourself how great Collins and Young are because they put up 20+ points while losing by 40. NBA hell is rebuilding and selling illusion of bright future. While almost not a single "built through draft" small market team ever won championship.
ONce you reach rock bottom, you finally understand how far from mediocrity you really are.

I still see no objecitve reason why would Magic be so desparate to get into top 5 2020 pick. Especially in year where teams that actually have top 3 picks, are all looking how to trade down, because they don't see any upside in drafting high.
And talking about 2021 as some god given draft is also silly. Nassir Little went from projected top 5 pick two years ago, to being benched behind Mario Hezonja.
Cade Cunningham, projected 1# pick comparison is "stronger Shaun Livingstone, smaller Ben Simmons".. so if everything goes right, maybe top 30 player one day?
Jalen Green " lite Kobe" so... rich man JR Smith ?
Brandon Boston- Jeremy Lamb? Where is my " abort mission button" ?

Image



In minds of fans picks always sound better than players. Winning lottery always sounds better than drafting James Wiseman. Winning lottery always sounds more promising than drafting Ayton, especially if alternative ends up being superstar. But most of the time,team does not win lottery and ends up with some project .


The idea is to trade for a 2021 pick if possible. Hayes and Fultz can be on the floor together. Not sure why you’ve come to that conclusion.

Is it ideal to trade away known quantities for prospects and picks ? Not really. This FO has left us no choice. It’s also not ideal to perpetually be picking 15-17 while we watch teams like New Orleans, Dallas, and Memphis surpass us with talent and leverage for future moves.

You realize you’re poking holes in the games of HS kids that have been reviewed by tons of scouts and would disagree with you on their potential. Wiggins is a serviceable player on a terrible deal sure. Orlando isn’t competing in the next 2-3 years anyway so who cares. If taking him on lands us better assets then sign me up. Fournier/Vuc/AG wouldn’t give us that kind of return individually without taking on that deal.

Does that mean this FO will have to actually select the right player? Yes. It’s all a guessing game until the lottery is set. You know what isn’t a guessing game? The future of this roster as currently constructed. Isaac is out all next season, so it’s more likely the mediocre Magic are a fringe playoff team anyway. That’s 1 more year down the drain overpaying an already expensive and aging roster for basically the same results. Pointless.

This is why they should take advantage of the situation while they still can. There is no possible way someone could convince me that rolling out the same roster this season, without making a major move, is the best case scenario.

The Magic will have to rebuild at some point. They could have done it years ago and decided not to for all the baseless reasons I’ve argued against...and now here we are. I’m not really sure why people downplay the draft like it hasn’t instantly led teams to brighter futures and potential. It’s the only possible way Orlando makes it out of purgatory. Lebron isn’t walking through the door, free agency isn’t an option, and the trade value just isn’t there. Serious question, do you actually enjoy watching this team and gain satisfaction from the results?
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#1852 » by pepe1991 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:36 am

MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Yeah, I'm down for ideal scenario plans too, but trying to figure out how to do it within the limitations of WeHam is the real challenge.

The one bonus is the new draft odds, because we'll never tank and drop into bottom 3 rankings intentionally.

Trading for that Minny 21 pick could be worth the gamble. Not sure what it would cost to pry it from GSW. Vuc + Gordon/Fournier for Wiggins + Min 21 would both sabotage us - but whilst adding a player who could be framed as a 'big addition' - and give us another ticket in the draw.

Bamba/Birch
Gordon/Clark/(Isaac)
Ennis/Okeke
Wiggins/Ross
Fultz/Lewis

Can WeHam convince themselves that the 'young veterans' would keep us competitive enough for their playoff aspirations? Or do they hope they've bought enough good faith from the FO that one down season followed by a ton of cap space in a good offseason and two potentially high picks are seen as worth it?

That's assuming Bamba/Gordon/Wiggins/Fultz
don't become the GOATs Pepe keeps claiming they all can become. 8-)



:lol:

Main reason why teams don't do this is because it's suicide move.

You are departing every single player that is lockerroom leader and change him for 19 years old kids and one of worst nba contracts who has history of being lazy, selfish player that never did anything for a teams he played on and who tends to just play for his PPGs. That is same guy who is for years one of worst 6'8 or taller rebounder. He just does not care. Put young kids next to him and what are you telling them? Don't do anything for a team, play video games, feud with good players, average 20 points on 20 wins team and max contract is for you after 4 years? His body is best body of (no) work done. Entered nba as skinny guy with no muscles, everybody was up in arms how he has great frame and how in no time he will look like Kawhi Leonard or something like that. Almost 7 years passed guy is still toothpick that can't take contact.

And about Warriors pick. Who you even take at 2#?
Wiseman is BPA. So another center? I assume Edwards is gone, where are you really going? Lamelo Ball? And Wiggins? That combo has potential to become most toxic combo since Jail Blazers were a thing.

Hayes is guard who needs ball, so it moves Fultz to bench. Avdija ? With Okeke, isaac, Gordon it's another SF-PF player.
There is no objective reason to reach for 2# pick just to draft Vassell who probably won't be taken before 7th spot.

There is simply so little that Magic can gain with that pick. Second round pick here sounds WAAAAY more sexy than you see who you can get with it. Once you start going through names you figure that pick does not have anywhere near value as it sounds it has.

Now you are moving to 2021 season with complete lack of interest to be competitive ( well you added Wiggns, so wins were never an option ). Tank, get 4th pick for example. Team still has no salary ...

Wiggins $31M
Fultz ( projected $15M)
Isaac ( projected $18M)
Bamba $6M
2020 pick $8M
Ross $12M
Gordon $16M
2021 pick $8M
Okeke $5M

That's around $119 M commited to tanking roster :dontknow:

Spoiler:
Even on first look you there is some massive objective problem with that roster. Nobody can shoot. Outside of unnamed 2020 and 2021 pick, nobody can even score with any efficiency.

Until Wiggins does not get a F out ( in 2024) you won't ba able to do anything in FA.

Sad reality of building through draft is games, days and weeks when you are getting exited about Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk because he scored 25 points against Atlanta, where on other side John Collins scored 20 while having plus minus of -31 in 27 min, while allowing Drummond to grab 7 offensive rebounds in 27 min... Yet you are lying to yourself how great Collins and Young are because they put up 20+ points while losing by 40. NBA hell is rebuilding and selling illusion of bright future. While almost not a single "built through draft" small market team ever won championship.
ONce you reach rock bottom, you finally understand how far from mediocrity you really are.

I still see no objecitve reason why would Magic be so desparate to get into top 5 2020 pick. Especially in year where teams that actually have top 3 picks, are all looking how to trade down, because they don't see any upside in drafting high.
And talking about 2021 as some god given draft is also silly. Nassir Little went from projected top 5 pick two years ago, to being benched behind Mario Hezonja.
Cade Cunningham, projected 1# pick comparison is "stronger Shaun Livingstone, smaller Ben Simmons".. so if everything goes right, maybe top 30 player one day?
Jalen Green " lite Kobe" so... rich man JR Smith ?
Brandon Boston- Jeremy Lamb? Where is my " abort mission button" ?

Image



In minds of fans picks always sound better than players. Winning lottery always sounds better than drafting James Wiseman. Winning lottery always sounds more promising than drafting Ayton, especially if alternative ends up being superstar. But most of the time,team does not win lottery and ends up with some project .


The idea is to trade for a 2021 pick if possible. Hayes and Fultz can be on the floor together. Not sure why you’ve come to that conclusion.

Is it ideal to trade away known quantities for prospects and picks ? Not really. This FO has left us no choice. It’s also not ideal to perpetually be picking 15-17 while we watch teams like New Orleans, Dallas, and Memphis surpass us with talent and leverage for future moves.

You realize you’re poking holes in the games of HS kids that have been reviewed by tons of scouts and would disagree with you on their potential. Wiggins is a serviceable player on a terrible deal sure. Orlando isn’t competing in the next 2-3 years anyway so who cares. If taking him on lands us better assets then sign me up. Fournier/Vuc/AG wouldn’t give us that kind of return individually without taking on that deal.

Does that mean this FO will have to actually select the right player? Yes. It’s all a guessing game until the lottery is set. You know what isn’t a guessing game? The future of this roster as currently constructed. Isaac is out all next season, so it’s more likely the mediocre Magic are a fringe playoff team anyway. That’s 1 more year down the drain overpaying an already expensive and aging roster for basically the same results. Pointless.

This is why they should take advantage of the situation while they still can. There is no possible way someone could convince me that rolling out the same roster this season, without making a major move, is the best case scenario.

The Magic will have to rebuild at some point. They could have done it years ago and decided not to for all the baseless reasons I’ve argued against...and now here we are. I’m not really sure why people downplay the draft like it hasn’t instantly led teams to brighter futures and potential. It’s the only possible way Orlando makes it out of purgatory. Lebron isn’t walking through the door, free agency isn’t an option, and the trade value just isn’t there. Serious question, do you actually enjoy watching this team and gain satisfaction from the results?



Killian Hayes shot 18% in catch&shoot situations. Fultz in nba can't play off ball. What execlly they will do together ? One will stand in corner and other will play pick&roll without chance to pop ? Brilliant offense right there .4 on 5 every possession.
people who are high on Hayes probably never watched single basketball game of him playing. Slow, unathletic, robotic, high dribble, left handed to the point where he can't even drive to his right, wery awkward position of legs and hands when shoots. For a guy who only shot 36 catch&shoot 3s, he was unguarded in 25 of them. He is like worst shooting, not so crafty dribbling version of D'angelo Russell...

Poking game at highschool kids is execlly what teams need to do. Not follow blind hype and end up with Thon Maker. Especially once HS start arriving in nba after next year. Amount of busts in top 10 will skyrocket (again, like back in a day when Tyson Chandler was 2# pick :rofl: and needed 10 years to learn how to play basketball )
Cade Cunningham outside of nike EYBL showed no jumpshot ability whatsoever. During U19 world cup guy went 1-14 for 3. In NBPA tournament 0-6 for 3. He is also good, but not spectacular athlete. At end of a day he is 6'6 point guard who probably can't shoot at NBA level. He might dominate in college due size ( like Lonzo Ball did) but in nba he'll be average sized player and that's only thing he has going for him.

Magic are rebuilding since 2011. If you didn't notice, Magic were deep lottery team 2 years ago when they selected 6th overall pick Mo Bamba. That really translated into sucessful rebuild didn't it?
Matter of fact from 2011 Magic lined up : FIVE top 6 picks. 0 allstars.
Now they even have Fultz, former 1# pick from 2017 draft that happend just 3 years ago. You know, 2017, once hyped as best draft class in decade, first overall pick... That probably isn't top 20 player at his position today.
That's building through draft, complete crap shoot.

Wiggins is not average player. Wiggins is unleashed Mario Hezonja on 25% usage rate that is impossible to bench due $30M a year contract .
Wiggins is 47th amongst NBA starters in usage. Among those 47 players, Wiggins is dead last in field goal percentage, below the likes of Josh Jackson and Dennis Schroeder. He has taken a major step back as a free-throw shooter too, which is worrying for a guard who was supposed to be built on getting to the line with a variety of finishing moves and sheer power.

Among the 117 players attempting at least ten shots per game, Wiggins is 111th in field goal percentage. If you change the statistic to true shooting percentage which takes shot selection into account, Wiggins’ drops to 116th, with only rookie Kevin Knox below him.


This is not remark of average player, this is remark of dead salary that nobody wants part of. Warriors are now playing dump saying all the right things about him just to find somebody foolish enough to remove him, and probably cry themselfs to bed as they traded not great, but much better Russell for walking disaster of Andrew Wiggins.

I'm fine with rebuild that make sense. Dumping good players for 2# 2020 pick and getting one of the worst nba players compared to contract, and dumping all hope in 2021 draft class? Hard pass. During corona, economy disaster, crappy product, this team would be instant Seattle bound.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#1853 » by Bensational » Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:04 am

I reckon that above lineup (or something close to) would finish around the 30-35 win mark. Depends how Fultz and Wiggins go.

I think Wiggins could be DeRozan-ish good eventually. But he needs to carry a team to the postseason first.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#1854 » by pepe1991 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:10 am

;t=176s

Pls watch this and come back with desire to add $30M of Wiggins money.

There is no objective reason to belive Wiggins is anything more than bench player, other than stupid notion of potential, while almost being 26 and entering his 7th nba season, who also never made any significant improvment since college.

He is easly one of most depressing examples of false hype.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#1855 » by Blue_and_Whte » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:51 pm

IllMagic04 wrote:
yoyojw17 wrote:Really good video! Take a listen

I saw this earlier. I dont get why Okeke cant be a 3 or 4. In todays NBA its pretty interchangable. Until Bamba looks like an NBA basketball player I cant see trading Vuc unless its a damn good offer.

Sent from my SM-G970U using RealGM mobile app

He's giving too much credence to Mo Bamba. There's no way we move on from the better player in Vooch anytime soon if they want to actually compete next season.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#1856 » by MagicMatic » Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:28 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:

:lol:

Main reason why teams don't do this is because it's suicide move.

You are departing every single player that is lockerroom leader and change him for 19 years old kids and one of worst nba contracts who has history of being lazy, selfish player that never did anything for a teams he played on and who tends to just play for his PPGs. That is same guy who is for years one of worst 6'8 or taller rebounder. He just does not care. Put young kids next to him and what are you telling them? Don't do anything for a team, play video games, feud with good players, average 20 points on 20 wins team and max contract is for you after 4 years? His body is best body of (no) work done. Entered nba as skinny guy with no muscles, everybody was up in arms how he has great frame and how in no time he will look like Kawhi Leonard or something like that. Almost 7 years passed guy is still toothpick that can't take contact.

And about Warriors pick. Who you even take at 2#?
Wiseman is BPA. So another center? I assume Edwards is gone, where are you really going? Lamelo Ball? And Wiggins? That combo has potential to become most toxic combo since Jail Blazers were a thing.

Hayes is guard who needs ball, so it moves Fultz to bench. Avdija ? With Okeke, isaac, Gordon it's another SF-PF player.
There is no objective reason to reach for 2# pick just to draft Vassell who probably won't be taken before 7th spot.

There is simply so little that Magic can gain with that pick. Second round pick here sounds WAAAAY more sexy than you see who you can get with it. Once you start going through names you figure that pick does not have anywhere near value as it sounds it has.

Now you are moving to 2021 season with complete lack of interest to be competitive ( well you added Wiggns, so wins were never an option ). Tank, get 4th pick for example. Team still has no salary ...

Wiggins $31M
Fultz ( projected $15M)
Isaac ( projected $18M)
Bamba $6M
2020 pick $8M
Ross $12M
Gordon $16M
2021 pick $8M
Okeke $5M

That's around $119 M commited to tanking roster :dontknow:

Spoiler:
Even on first look you there is some massive objective problem with that roster. Nobody can shoot. Outside of unnamed 2020 and 2021 pick, nobody can even score with any efficiency.

Until Wiggins does not get a F out ( in 2024) you won't ba able to do anything in FA.

Sad reality of building through draft is games, days and weeks when you are getting exited about Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk because he scored 25 points against Atlanta, where on other side John Collins scored 20 while having plus minus of -31 in 27 min, while allowing Drummond to grab 7 offensive rebounds in 27 min... Yet you are lying to yourself how great Collins and Young are because they put up 20+ points while losing by 40. NBA hell is rebuilding and selling illusion of bright future. While almost not a single "built through draft" small market team ever won championship.
ONce you reach rock bottom, you finally understand how far from mediocrity you really are.

I still see no objecitve reason why would Magic be so desparate to get into top 5 2020 pick. Especially in year where teams that actually have top 3 picks, are all looking how to trade down, because they don't see any upside in drafting high.
And talking about 2021 as some god given draft is also silly. Nassir Little went from projected top 5 pick two years ago, to being benched behind Mario Hezonja.
Cade Cunningham, projected 1# pick comparison is "stronger Shaun Livingstone, smaller Ben Simmons".. so if everything goes right, maybe top 30 player one day?
Jalen Green " lite Kobe" so... rich man JR Smith ?
Brandon Boston- Jeremy Lamb? Where is my " abort mission button" ?

Image



In minds of fans picks always sound better than players. Winning lottery always sounds better than drafting James Wiseman. Winning lottery always sounds more promising than drafting Ayton, especially if alternative ends up being superstar. But most of the time,team does not win lottery and ends up with some project .


The idea is to trade for a 2021 pick if possible. Hayes and Fultz can be on the floor together. Not sure why you’ve come to that conclusion.

Is it ideal to trade away known quantities for prospects and picks ? Not really. This FO has left us no choice. It’s also not ideal to perpetually be picking 15-17 while we watch teams like New Orleans, Dallas, and Memphis surpass us with talent and leverage for future moves.

You realize you’re poking holes in the games of HS kids that have been reviewed by tons of scouts and would disagree with you on their potential. Wiggins is a serviceable player on a terrible deal sure. Orlando isn’t competing in the next 2-3 years anyway so who cares. If taking him on lands us better assets then sign me up. Fournier/Vuc/AG wouldn’t give us that kind of return individually without taking on that deal.

Does that mean this FO will have to actually select the right player? Yes. It’s all a guessing game until the lottery is set. You know what isn’t a guessing game? The future of this roster as currently constructed. Isaac is out all next season, so it’s more likely the mediocre Magic are a fringe playoff team anyway. That’s 1 more year down the drain overpaying an already expensive and aging roster for basically the same results. Pointless.

This is why they should take advantage of the situation while they still can. There is no possible way someone could convince me that rolling out the same roster this season, without making a major move, is the best case scenario.

The Magic will have to rebuild at some point. They could have done it years ago and decided not to for all the baseless reasons I’ve argued against...and now here we are. I’m not really sure why people downplay the draft like it hasn’t instantly led teams to brighter futures and potential. It’s the only possible way Orlando makes it out of purgatory. Lebron isn’t walking through the door, free agency isn’t an option, and the trade value just isn’t there. Serious question, do you actually enjoy watching this team and gain satisfaction from the results?



Magic are rebuilding since 2011. If you didn't notice, Magic were deep lottery team 2 years ago when they selected 6th overall pick Mo Bamba. That really translated into sucessful rebuild didn't it?
Matter of fact from 2011 Magic lined up : FIVE top 6 picks. 0 allstars.

I'm fine with rebuild that make sense. Dumping good players for 2# 2020 pick and getting one of the worst nba players compared to contract, and dumping all hope in 2021 draft class? Hard pass. During corona, economy disaster, crappy product, this team would be instant Seattle bound.


It’s not a true “rebuild” if you are handing out huge contracts to nba vets in an attempt at pushing for the playoffs every season. One of the largest salaries in the nba with no true star. Which means that they either:

1) haven’t been truly “rebuilding” or
2) are one of the worst FO’s at “rebuilding” in history

I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they haven’t really been rebuilding since 2011. More like a half- rebuild to keep ticket sales up. Where has that gotten Orlando in a decade? Nowhere. Good job.

This organization has never proven to be successful without landing a top 5 pick and building around said player. Hopefully they look at history and realize that it’s their only way of being relevant again.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#1857 » by pepe1991 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:13 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
The idea is to trade for a 2021 pick if possible. Hayes and Fultz can be on the floor together. Not sure why you’ve come to that conclusion.

Is it ideal to trade away known quantities for prospects and picks ? Not really. This FO has left us no choice. It’s also not ideal to perpetually be picking 15-17 while we watch teams like New Orleans, Dallas, and Memphis surpass us with talent and leverage for future moves.

You realize you’re poking holes in the games of HS kids that have been reviewed by tons of scouts and would disagree with you on their potential. Wiggins is a serviceable player on a terrible deal sure. Orlando isn’t competing in the next 2-3 years anyway so who cares. If taking him on lands us better assets then sign me up. Fournier/Vuc/AG wouldn’t give us that kind of return individually without taking on that deal.

Does that mean this FO will have to actually select the right player? Yes. It’s all a guessing game until the lottery is set. You know what isn’t a guessing game? The future of this roster as currently constructed. Isaac is out all next season, so it’s more likely the mediocre Magic are a fringe playoff team anyway. That’s 1 more year down the drain overpaying an already expensive and aging roster for basically the same results. Pointless.

This is why they should take advantage of the situation while they still can. There is no possible way someone could convince me that rolling out the same roster this season, without making a major move, is the best case scenario.

The Magic will have to rebuild at some point. They could have done it years ago and decided not to for all the baseless reasons I’ve argued against...and now here we are. I’m not really sure why people downplay the draft like it hasn’t instantly led teams to brighter futures and potential. It’s the only possible way Orlando makes it out of purgatory. Lebron isn’t walking through the door, free agency isn’t an option, and the trade value just isn’t there. Serious question, do you actually enjoy watching this team and gain satisfaction from the results?



Magic are rebuilding since 2011. If you didn't notice, Magic were deep lottery team 2 years ago when they selected 6th overall pick Mo Bamba. That really translated into sucessful rebuild didn't it?
Matter of fact from 2011 Magic lined up : FIVE top 6 picks. 0 allstars.

I'm fine with rebuild that make sense. Dumping good players for 2# 2020 pick and getting one of the worst nba players compared to contract, and dumping all hope in 2021 draft class? Hard pass. During corona, economy disaster, crappy product, this team would be instant Seattle bound.


It’s not a true “rebuild” if you are handing out huge contracts to nba vets in an attempt at pushing for the playoffs every season. One of the largest salaries in the nba with no true star. Which means that they either:

1) haven’t been truly “rebuilding” or
2) are one of the worst FO’s at “rebuilding” in history

I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they haven’t really been rebuilding since 2011. More like a half- rebuild to keep ticket sales up. Where has that gotten Orlando in a decade? Nowhere. Good job.

This organization has never proven to be successful without landing a top 5 pick and building around said player. Hopefully they look at history and realize that it’s their only way of being relevant again.


Magic DID do huge rebuild after they traded Howard and every single valuable veteran under a sun. Their rebuild just, like most rebuilds, went nowhere.
In hindsight Magic keeping their vets and flipping Howard for Brook Lopez when they had a chance ,especially getting Nets picks would end up being better rebuild than one they elected to do.
NOw, almost 10 years later, many fans, inlcuding you, once again want to dump every single valuble player this team has for ping pong balls. In mean time lottery got fixed to stop idiotic teams from tanking and now whole draft will be overflowed with bunch of 18 years old kids jumping from highschool to make drafting in lottery even more usless.

If there was no one and done rule in place, last couple of years, team would have burned their lottery ping pong balls on Chris Walker, Cheick Diallo,Harry Giles and Skal Labissière as they all were 5 starts recruits, but thanks to 1 year at college rule their saved lot of GMs jobs by not being able to jump ship right into nba.

Good luck with lottery picks when you have to draft 17 yeras old still in puberty boy who is yet to shave for first time, while betting your multi million team on his shoulders.

Well on bright side we will see new Eddy Curry's and Kwame Brown's of the world being selected with top 3 picks :D
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#1858 » by MagicMatic » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:42 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:

Magic are rebuilding since 2011. If you didn't notice, Magic were deep lottery team 2 years ago when they selected 6th overall pick Mo Bamba. That really translated into sucessful rebuild didn't it?
Matter of fact from 2011 Magic lined up : FIVE top 6 picks. 0 allstars.

I'm fine with rebuild that make sense. Dumping good players for 2# 2020 pick and getting one of the worst nba players compared to contract, and dumping all hope in 2021 draft class? Hard pass. During corona, economy disaster, crappy product, this team would be instant Seattle bound.


It’s not a true “rebuild” if you are handing out huge contracts to nba vets in an attempt at pushing for the playoffs every season. One of the largest salaries in the nba with no true star. Which means that they either:

1) haven’t been truly “rebuilding” or
2) are one of the worst FO’s at “rebuilding” in history

I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they haven’t really been rebuilding since 2011. More like a half- rebuild to keep ticket sales up. Where has that gotten Orlando in a decade? Nowhere. Good job.

This organization has never proven to be successful without landing a top 5 pick and building around said player. Hopefully they look at history and realize that it’s their only way of being relevant again.


Magic DID do huge rebuild after they traded Howard and every single valuable veteran under a sun. Their rebuild just, like most rebuilds, went nowhere.
In hindsight Magic keeping their vets and flipping Howard for Brook Lopez when they had a chance ,especially getting Nets picks would end up being better rebuild than one they elected to do.
NOw, almost 10 years later, many fans, inlcuding you, once again want to dump every single valuble player this team has for ping pong balls. In mean time lottery got fixed to stop idiotic teams from tanking and now whole draft will be overflowed with bunch of 18 years old kids jumping from highschool to make drafting in lottery even more usless.

If there was no one and done rule in place, last couple of years, team would have burned their lottery ping pong balls on Chris Walker, Cheick Diallo,Harry Giles and Skal Labissière as they all were 5 starts recruits, but thanks to 1 year at college rule their saved lot of GMs jobs by not being able to jump ship right into nba.

Good luck with lottery picks when you have to draft 17 yeras old still in puberty boy who is yet to shave for first time, while betting your multi million team on his shoulders.

Well on bright side we will see new Eddy Curry's and Kwame Brown's of the world being selected with top 3 picks :D


Yeah, obviously they rebuilt by trading Dwight. Why would they keep their vets if the team was no longer contending for anything? Same as this team only with no top 5-10 player at all. Not even a consistent all star.

Good thing the 1- done rule is still in place for 2021...

Yeah, I’d rather Orlando have a chance at landing real talent as opposed to watching the team treadmill with Hennigan’s roster for another consecutive season sans Isaac. Sue me.

We’ve had all of these conversations before. You have no answers for getting off the treadmill, other than arguing when anyone mentions utilizing the draft or trading Vuc/ Fournier.

So let me get this straight. You don’t believe in attempting to draft promising young players, you don’t believe in Orlando’s young players, and you don’t want to trade anyone but AG? Hate to break it to you, but none of that equation equals anything but more of the same treadmill. I know you don’t believe this FO is doing an amazing job, but the result exactly what you want to watch. Buddy ball first round exit nonsense.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#1859 » by pepe1991 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:59 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
It’s not a true “rebuild” if you are handing out huge contracts to nba vets in an attempt at pushing for the playoffs every season. One of the largest salaries in the nba with no true star. Which means that they either:

1) haven’t been truly “rebuilding” or
2) are one of the worst FO’s at “rebuilding” in history

I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they haven’t really been rebuilding since 2011. More like a half- rebuild to keep ticket sales up. Where has that gotten Orlando in a decade? Nowhere. Good job.

This organization has never proven to be successful without landing a top 5 pick and building around said player. Hopefully they look at history and realize that it’s their only way of being relevant again.


Magic DID do huge rebuild after they traded Howard and every single valuable veteran under a sun. Their rebuild just, like most rebuilds, went nowhere.
In hindsight Magic keeping their vets and flipping Howard for Brook Lopez when they had a chance ,especially getting Nets picks would end up being better rebuild than one they elected to do.
NOw, almost 10 years later, many fans, inlcuding you, once again want to dump every single valuble player this team has for ping pong balls. In mean time lottery got fixed to stop idiotic teams from tanking and now whole draft will be overflowed with bunch of 18 years old kids jumping from highschool to make drafting in lottery even more usless.

If there was no one and done rule in place, last couple of years, team would have burned their lottery ping pong balls on Chris Walker, Cheick Diallo,Harry Giles and Skal Labissière as they all were 5 starts recruits, but thanks to 1 year at college rule their saved lot of GMs jobs by not being able to jump ship right into nba.

Good luck with lottery picks when you have to draft 17 yeras old still in puberty boy who is yet to shave for first time, while betting your multi million team on his shoulders.

Well on bright side we will see new Eddy Curry's and Kwame Brown's of the world being selected with top 3 picks :D


Yeah, obviously they rebuilt by trading Dwight. Why would they keep their vets if the team was no longer contending for anything? Same as this team only with no top 5-10 player at all. Not even a consistent all star.

Good thing the 1- done rule is still in place for 2021...

Yeah, I’d rather Orlando have a chance at landing real talent as opposed to watching the team treadmill with Hennigan’s roster for another consecutive season sans Isaac. Sue me.

We’ve had all of these conversations before. You have no answers for getting off the treadmill, other than arguing when anyone mentions utilizing the draft or trading Vuc/ Fournier.

So let me get this straight. You don’t believe in attempting to draft promising young players, you don’t believe in Orlando’s young players, and you don’t want to trade anyone but AG? Hate to break it to you, but none of that equation equals anything but more of the same treadmill. I know you don’t believe this FO is doing an amazing job, but the result exactly what you want to watch. Buddy ball first round exit nonsense.


Ulitzing draft and tanking to oblivion until you may or may not stumble across star are two separate things.

Nuggets, Jazz nor Rockets are contenders, i assume you would blow them up too? Why not? It's not like Giannis is walking through that doors. They have some stars, but no sucess in playoffs. Non of them will pass Lakers in next 3 years. Why not rebuild now?
See how it's easy to poke flaws in " championship or bust" myth. There are 30 teams, 1 winner and 29 losers every year. By far easiest way to do is surrender and just suck on purpose. But if sucking on purpose is some miracle work, why 76ers are not 2018,2019 nor 2020 champions by now? Nobody had worst ( or in your mind best) tank job in nba history?
Where are all those Kings and T wolves and Hornets/Bobcats championships at? Those are 3 teams that have the most top 3 pick selections in last 3 decades.

But wait. T wolves, Kings and HOrnets/Bobcats, despite being deep lottery team, despite keep drafting college stars, despite being in lottery each and every single year for better part of last 12 years NEVER EVEN PLAYED IN SECOND ROUND OF PLAYOFFS.

Maybe because ADDING YOUNG TALENT WITHOUT ANY INFRASTRUCTURE OF A TEAM SIMPLY WON'T DO ANYTHING FOR YOUR FRANCHISE?

Why Magic , like any team with any sense and logic are keeping their vets? Because they know team that is runned by bunch of puberty teenegers will Hennigan-ed himself again, with bunch of kids compeating hard between each other, in battle for empty stats to get exstensions more than they actually come as a team, improve as players and compete with other teams.

For same reasons Butler had no interest in playing for Wolves, he couldn't stand Wiggins and Towns only caring about their shots more than winning.
For same reason Lebron traded "transending star" Wiggins when he was "baby Lebron/Kobe" for established player like Kevin Love.

For same reason Lakers current roster, chmapionship one, had grand total of ONE player younger than 25 that was rotation player. One.

Young players NEVER achive anything, their rookie scale contracts are literally grooming process for them to start actually contributing to winning basketball. Nobody does jack **** in first few years. By the time they actually mature, they have full control over their future and much like Dwight, Melo, Lebron , Durant or any other star no longer have interest in staying with teams that drafted them. Being lottery team today means being farm system. Nobody had any sucess building through draft because major market teams know they don't need to tank, they just need to let others to the tank for them and steal their finished products.

Lakers tried to tank once, and until Lebron walked in they had one of most painful, pathetic rebuilds i have seen.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#1860 » by MagicMatic » Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:07 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Magic DID do huge rebuild after they traded Howard and every single valuable veteran under a sun. Their rebuild just, like most rebuilds, went nowhere.
In hindsight Magic keeping their vets and flipping Howard for Brook Lopez when they had a chance ,especially getting Nets picks would end up being better rebuild than one they elected to do.
NOw, almost 10 years later, many fans, inlcuding you, once again want to dump every single valuble player this team has for ping pong balls. In mean time lottery got fixed to stop idiotic teams from tanking and now whole draft will be overflowed with bunch of 18 years old kids jumping from highschool to make drafting in lottery even more usless.

If there was no one and done rule in place, last couple of years, team would have burned their lottery ping pong balls on Chris Walker, Cheick Diallo,Harry Giles and Skal Labissière as they all were 5 starts recruits, but thanks to 1 year at college rule their saved lot of GMs jobs by not being able to jump ship right into nba.

Good luck with lottery picks when you have to draft 17 yeras old still in puberty boy who is yet to shave for first time, while betting your multi million team on his shoulders.

Well on bright side we will see new Eddy Curry's and Kwame Brown's of the world being selected with top 3 picks :D


Yeah, obviously they rebuilt by trading Dwight. Why would they keep their vets if the team was no longer contending for anything? Same as this team only with no top 5-10 player at all. Not even a consistent all star.

Good thing the 1- done rule is still in place for 2021...

Yeah, I’d rather Orlando have a chance at landing real talent as opposed to watching the team treadmill with Hennigan’s roster for another consecutive season sans Isaac. Sue me.

We’ve had all of these conversations before. You have no answers for getting off the treadmill, other than arguing when anyone mentions utilizing the draft or trading Vuc/ Fournier.

So let me get this straight. You don’t believe in attempting to draft promising young players, you don’t believe in Orlando’s young players, and you don’t want to trade anyone but AG? Hate to break it to you, but none of that equation equals anything but more of the same treadmill. I know you don’t believe this FO is doing an amazing job, but the result exactly what you want to watch. Buddy ball first round exit nonsense.


Ulitzing draft and tanking to oblivion until you may or may not stumble across star are two separate things.

Nuggets, Jazz nor Rockets are contenders, i assume you would blow them up too? Why not? It's not like Giannis is walking through that doors. They have some stars, but no sucess in playoffs. Non of them will pass Lakers in next 3 years. Why not rebuild now?
See how it's easy to poke flaws in " championship or bust" myth. There are 30 teams, 1 winner and 29 losers every year. By far easiest way to do is surrender and just suck on purpose. But if sucking on purpose is some miracle work, why 76ers are not 2018,2019 nor 2020 champions by now? Nobody had worst ( or in your mind best) tank job in nba history?
Where are all those Kings and T wolves and Hornets/Bobcats championships at? Those are 3 teams that have the most top 3 pick selections in last 3 decades.

But wait. T wolves, Kings and HOrnets/Bobcats, despite being deep lottery team, despite keep drafting college stars, despite being in lottery each and every single year for better part of last 12 years NEVER EVEN PLAYED IN SECOND ROUND OF PLAYOFFS.

Maybe because ADDING YOUNG TALENT WITHOUT ANY INFRASTRUCTURE OF A TEAM SIMPLY WON'T DO ANYTHING FOR YOUR FRANCHISE?

Why Magic , like any team with any sense and logic are keeping their vets? Because they know team that is runned by bunch of puberty teenegers will Hennigan-ed himself again, with bunch of kids compeating hard between each other, in battle for empty stats to get exstensions more than they actually come as a team, improve as players and compete with other teams.

For same reasons Butler had no interest in playing for Wolves, he couldn't stand Wiggins and Towns only caring about their shots more than winning.
For same reason Lebron traded "transending star" Wiggins when he was "baby Lebron/Kobe" for established player like Kevin Love.

For same reason Lakers current roster, chmapionship one, had grand total of ONE player younger than 25 that was rotation player. One.

Young players NEVER achive anything, their rookie scale contracts are literally grooming process for them to start actually contributing to winning basketball. Nobody does jack **** in first few years. By the time they actually mature, they have full control over their future and much like Dwight, Melo, Lebron , Durant or any other star no longer have interest in staying with teams that drafted them. Being lottery team today means being farm system. Nobody had any sucess building through draft because major market teams know they don't need to tank, they just need to let others to the tank for them and steal their finished products.

Lakers tried to tank once, and until Lebron walked in they had one of most painful, pathetic rebuilds i have seen.


First, a few things...

Making it to the conference finals/ semi finals isn’t “blow up” worthy. That isn’t what we are talking about here with Orlando having a capped ceiling, no star, and drafting 15th. This roster is the classic definition of treadmill with a core that has outlasted a failed GM from years ago.

Secondly, quit using examples like LA building a championship roster in 2 years with two top 5 players walking into an organization. Jimmy Butler didn’t mesh with Philly or Minnesota until he went to a team fit for him.

Young players never achieve anything? Interesting considering nearly every player has been drafted at some point. You will find any reason to take away the validity of teams like Dallas, Denver, Memphis, and New Orleans despite them building through the draft and surpassing Orlando with assets/talent.

Nba teams have about 7 years with drafted players to try and convince them it’s where they need to be. Not one throwaway rookie year (usually). Orlando isn’t exciting and there is nothing to look forward to unless you believe some of these role player rookies surprise us.

It’s hilarious how you always go back to the extreme of Philadelphia as your model for why the draft doesn’t work. For as much **** as they got for what they did they are still further than Orlando, in a shorter timeframe, with also more valuable assets.

They went from 10-72 in 2015 to 52-30 two years later.
Orlando by comparison cracked 30 wins twice since 2012.

So who’s the joke on? Lol... I know that probably makes you mad and you’re already typing some response with statistics that I’ll never read.

Bottom line is that Orlando needs to attract talent with talent. That will never happen unless they either rob someone in a trade, draft an unlikely diamond in the rough at 15+, or draft at the top on a down year. Only one of those scenarios is a real possibility. Again, you offer no alternatives and all criticism with random examples that really don’t correlate to what we are discussing.

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