Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory

MagicStarwipe · Post #1921 » by **MagicStarwipe** » Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:30 am

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he wasn't Elfrid Payton.

pepe1991 · Post #1922 » by **pepe1991** » Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:31 am

UnFadeable21 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Xatticus wrote:
The Magic still won't have any stars.

Vucevic isn't a star. He is probably a top-10 center?

He certainly isn't as good as Jokic, Gobert, Embiid, Adebayo, or Davis. There are many more we could have a conversation about, but I'm not really trying to **** on Vucevic.

In short, you can't build around him. Well... you can, but you get what we watch every night. You go 200-347 with 2 playoff wins in 8 years. And yes... Vucevic is a better player today than he was four years ago, but he still isn't good enough to justify his role for this team. The problem, of course, is that he is now 30 years old and our window won't even open until he is too old to be the reason that the window is opening. We should be accumulating assets that will be worth something three years from now. Can we get that in return for Vucevic? Probably not. So we are locked in purgatory until his contract winds down. He keeps us just good enough to severely hamper our likelihood of landing a franchise-altering talent in the draft. If an opportunity to get some future assets presents itself, we should jump at the opportunity.

Vuc is complimentary- star. Just like half of allstars are. You can't really build winning roster around of half of "allstars".
Vuc existence never stopped anybody from emerging as star on this roster in last 8 years. it's their lack of star potential, poor drafting, no FAs, poor development.

But let's go back to "allstar " and winning basketball for a second.

Kyle Lowry- there is no evidence he can be best player on great team
Ben Simmons - eh, maybe? Never proven, spent whole career with Embiid, as player never improved pass rookie year
Middelton- pretty crappy performance once GIannis got hurt, probably can't be go to guy
Adebayo- plays behind Butler as distanced second to third option
Blake Griffin- pretty much never got anywhere as best player
Beal- 7 years in nba, never passed second round
Wall- 9 years in nba, 3 times passed first round, never passed second.
Davis - as solo star passed first round once in 7 years.
Brandon Ingram - 0 playoff games played
Devin Booker- 0 playoff games played
Karl Anthony Towns- 0 playoff games played
D'angelo Russell- never won more than 1 game in playoffs ( 5 years in nba).
Sabonis- never passed first round
Kemba Walker - never passed first round with Hornets.
Trae Young -never won 30 games. (small sample size tho)

7 nba allstars never passed first round of playoffs and 4 of them never even played single playoff game.

This is incorrect and fake news.

Karl Anthony Towns has played in 5 playoff games, not 0 like stated.

Ben Simmons has improved, he made 1st team all nba defense this season.

Every team does need two stars. Vuc is good but he’s old and not on the timeline as Isaac and Fultz. Orlando needs to find their two max guys and build a real contending team.

"Fake news" is making 1 mistake in huge post ? :lol:

But thanks to pointing out how Towns DID play one playoff game thanks to Jimmy Butler. As soon Jimmy left, Towns is back at being tank commander.

Towns played 5 playoff games. True. Averaged 15 points on 54% TS in them and was average at best. Once again was negative contributor on defense through 5 games.

Ben Simmons DBPM went from 2,5 in "rookie" year to 2,3 in thrd year. What a strides of improvment :rofl:

Guy went from 4,5 BPM to 3,6. Major leaps... if getting worst is new improvment.

How Simmons improved his efficiency, only tengable improvment in 3 years? By learning how to shoot 3s and FTs? Naah. By shooting nothing but point blank shots more and abandoning any sort of mid range shots. Literally guy is layup or no shot player.

Every team does need two stars. Vuc is good but he’s old and not on the timeline as Isaac and Fultz. Orlando needs to find their two max guys and build a real contending team

Vučević turned 30 today. 10 allstars from 2020 allstar game are up there with him in age or older.
This "old " narrative is false. If you make top 10 nba players list ( Durant, Lebron, Curry, Davis, Kawhi, Giannis, Harden, Lillard, Butler, Embiid/Jokić/ Paul George..whoever you prefer), half of them are 30 or older. On "young and good and sucessful" side there are Doncic and Tatum. That's a lonley island. On other side Lebron is 35, Durant 32, Kawhi 29, Harden 31, Butler 31. Anthony Davis is viewed as young, yet only 2 years younger than Vuc. Even Giannis is almost 26 now. Embiid is March turning 27.

Fultz and Isaac are not players to build team around. They are not any better than young Harris, Evan, Payton, Gordon, Oladipo or Vuc were. And we know how that went.

MagicMatic · Post #1923 » by **MagicMatic** » Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:06 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
UnFadeable21 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Vuc is complimentary- star. Just like half of allstars are. You can't really build winning roster around of half of "allstars".
Vuc existence never stopped anybody from emerging as star on this roster in last 8 years. it's their lack of star potential, poor drafting, no FAs, poor development.

But let's go back to "allstar " and winning basketball for a second.

Kyle Lowry- there is no evidence he can be best player on great team
Ben Simmons - eh, maybe? Never proven, spent whole career with Embiid, as player never improved pass rookie year
Middelton- pretty crappy performance once GIannis got hurt, probably can't be go to guy
Adebayo- plays behind Butler as distanced second to third option
Blake Griffin- pretty much never got anywhere as best player
Beal- 7 years in nba, never passed second round
Wall- 9 years in nba, 3 times passed first round, never passed second.
Davis - as solo star passed first round once in 7 years.
Brandon Ingram - 0 playoff games played
Devin Booker- 0 playoff games played
Karl Anthony Towns- 0 playoff games played
D'angelo Russell- never won more than 1 game in playoffs ( 5 years in nba).
Sabonis- never passed first round
Kemba Walker - never passed first round with Hornets.
Trae Young -never won 30 games. (small sample size tho)

7 nba allstars never passed first round of playoffs and 4 of them never even played single playoff game.

This is incorrect and fake news.

Karl Anthony Towns has played in 5 playoff games, not 0 like stated.

Ben Simmons has improved, he made 1st team all nba defense this season.

Every team does need two stars. Vuc is good but he’s old and not on the timeline as Isaac and Fultz. Orlando needs to find their two max guys and build a real contending team.

"Fake news" is making 1 mistake in huge post ? But thanks to pointing out how Towns DID play one playoff game thanks to Jimmy Butler. As soon Jimmy left, Towns is back at being tank commander.

Towns played 5 playoff games. True. Averaged 15 points on 54% TS in them and was average at best. Once again was negative contributor on defense through 5 games.

Ben Simmons DBPM went from 2,5 in "rookie" year to 2,3 in thrd year. What a strides of improvment

Guy went from 4,5 BPM to 3,6. Major leaps... if getting worst is new improvment.

How Simmons improved his efficiency, only tengable improvment in 3 years? By learning how to shoot 3s and FTs? Naah. By shooting nothing but point blank shots more and abandoning any sort of mid range shots. Literally guy is layup or no shot player.

Every team does need two stars. Vuc is good but he’s old and not on the timeline as Isaac and Fultz. Orlando needs to find their two max guys and build a real contending team

Vučević turned 30 today. 10 allstars from 2020 allstar game are up there with him in age or older.
This "old " narrative is false. If you make top 10 nba players list ( Durant, Lebron, Curry, Davis, Kawhi, Giannis, Harden, Lillard, Butler, Embiid/Jokić/ Paul George..whoever you prefer), half of them are 30 or older. On "young and good and sucessful" side there are Doncic and Tatum. That's a lonley island. On other side Lebron is 35, Durant 32, Kawhi 29, Harden 31, Butler 31. Anthony Davis is viewed as young, yet only 2 years younger than Vuc. Even Giannis is almost 26 now. Embiid is March turning 27.

Fultz and Isaac are not players to build team around. They are not any better than young Harris, Evan, Payton, Gordon, Oladipo or Vuc were. And we know how that went.

Orlando was never bad enough with Vuc to land a real star and they were never smart enough to draft well when they came close. No team in the nba can be a contender with Vucevic as your highest usg player and central offense. There has been no identity for Orlando since he was acquired in the Howard trade. I don’t believe that’s a coincidence through 2 regime changes and multiple coaches.

Isaac and Fultz might not be the answers to build around, but neither is Vucevic. He’s already proven that. People value age in the nba for two reasons: mileage and potential ceiling. For example, Jokic is young (24) and has already been deep in the playoffs with a team identity built around his capabilities. Vucevic’s all star season 2018-19, conveniently his payday year, was as good as he will ever be at 30. There is no ceiling, no upside, and nothing to look forward to in Orlando.

Not really sure what your point is about good up and coming players. Are you trying to argue that Luka, Tatum, Simmons, Young, Bam, Towns, Mitchell, Booker, Ingram, Fox, Morant, Brown, SGA, KP, Murray, etc. etc. (all players under 25) are either less accomplished, have less ceiling, or aren’t as valuable as Vuc ever was? Because you’d be wrong on any of those assertions. All of them are capable of winning if they are in the right situation because many have proven how good they are in a bad one.

pepe1991 · Post #1924 » by **pepe1991** » Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:06 am

The NBA missed its revenue projections this season by $1.5 billion, sources told Tim Reynolds of The Associated Press.

The losses were due to a combination of the shutdown due to the pandemic, the cancellation of 171 regular-season games, completing the season without fans, and losing $200 million in a rift with the Chinese government.

There have been no decisions on finalizing the start of next season's schedule, though beginning the season in December as opposed to January or later could generate the league an extra $500 million in revenue.

The NBA is currently targeting a December 22nd start date, with a 72-game season.

Bleeding money, another reason why nobody will tank.

doct3r dr3 · Post #1925 » by **doct3r dr3** » Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:48 pm

A fun trip down memory lane:

Watch on YouTube

Magicfanatic82 · Post #1926 » by **Magicfanatic82** » Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:44 pm

Hey there, been reading these forums for a while. Finally decided to post. With the cap possibly going down 3-12mil that could push us towards moving onto youth. Resigning Dj would be harder and this team is not worth pushing into the tax.

Letting him move on and not using mle/ble would make us less likely to make the playoffs
Add in JIs injury and hopefully wetham is willing to develope okeke bamba fultz and 15. Maybe move Vuc, AG or Evan.

RookieStar · Post #1927 » by **RookieStar** » Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:23 am

Does it impact our cap limit if we apply JIs injury excemption? If so... by how much?

Post #1928 » by **Bensational** » Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:42 am

RookieStar wrote:Does it impact our cap limit if we apply JIs injury excemption? If so... by how much?

It would just give us an exception to use to sign his replacement, at half the value of his contract. About $3.6M - not much. But I'm pretty sure that still counts against the cap on top of whatever other salaries we already have. Being so close to luxury tax, WeHam may not want to use it.

RookieStar · Post #1929 » by **RookieStar** » Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:23 am

Bensational wrote:
RookieStar wrote:Does it impact our cap limit if we apply JIs injury excemption? If so... by how much?

It would just give us an exception to use to sign his replacement, at half the value of his contract. About $3.6M - not much. But I'm pretty sure that still counts against the cap on top of whatever other salaries we already have. Being so close to luxury tax, WeHam may not want to use it.

Normally it doesnt sound significant enough but with the talks about salary cap being decreased? You think we can use it to do something?

drsd · Post #1930 » by **drsd** » Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:07 pm

Magicfanatic82 wrote:Resigning Dj would be harder and this team is not worth pushing into the tax.

Augustin, and any vet in the league 3+ years will only cost the Magic $1.7M, if signed to a minimum contract for only one year. So, even though he would make about 2.7M, his cam hit would bee much lower.

NBA salary cap FAQ

I would imaging that a whole host of over-30s will go this one year, min contract path (as for many it is all that would be offered anyhow).

..

BadMofoPimp · Post #1931 » by **BadMofoPimp** » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:23 pm

Top priority for the Magic this offseason should be finding a way to trade Aminu off this team.

thelead · Post #1932 » by **thelead** » Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:57 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:Top priority for the Magic this offseason should be finding a way to trade Aminu off this team.

Yup. Fixing a mistake that this FO made a just year ago. Things are going well here...

The Real Dalic · Post #1933 » by **The Real Dalic** » Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:42 pm

thelead wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:Top priority for the Magic this offseason should be finding a way to trade Aminu off this team.

Yup. Fixing a mistake that this FO made a just year ago. Things are going well here...

To me, it's getting Fournier and DJ far away from this place and putting the ball in Fultz hands much more.

thelead · Post #1934 » by **thelead** » Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:17 am

The Real Dalic wrote:
thelead wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:Top priority for the Magic this offseason should be finding a way to trade Aminu off this team.

Yup. Fixing a mistake that this FO made a just year ago. Things are going well here...

To me, it's getting Fournier and DJ far away from this place and putting the ball in Fultz hands much more.

Fournier is definitely picking up his option. Not sure what we could trade him for but I would prefer to get rid of Aminu and just live with Evan for one more year to be honest. At least Evan isn't terrible.

And as much as we dislike DJ pounding the air out of the ball, good luck with finding a better backup that's willing to play here. The problem isn't DJ. The problem is the coach and his rotations. Other than Clifford, who else thinks that DJ should run the offense while Fultz is waiting to shoot 3's in the corner??? That just doesn't make any sense considering those two player's strengths.

Post #1935 » by **Bensational** » Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:38 am

RookieStar wrote:
Bensational wrote:
RookieStar wrote:Does it impact our cap limit if we apply JIs injury excemption? If so... by how much?

It would just give us an exception to use to sign his replacement, at half the value of his contract. About $3.6M - not much. But I'm pretty sure that still counts against the cap on top of whatever other salaries we already have. Being so close to luxury tax, WeHam may not want to use it.

Normally it doesnt sound significant enough but with the talks about salary cap being decreased? You think we can use it to do something?

Could be a good sized deal to offer to someone like Clark/Ennis/MCW possibly? Not those guys specifically, since we already have their rights. Likely someone from this year's FA crop of that mould though - a scrappy journeyman, hopeful diamond in the rough.

thelead · Post #1936 » by **thelead** » Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:55 am

Bensational wrote:
RookieStar wrote:
Bensational wrote:
It would just give us an exception to use to sign his replacement, at half the value of his contract. About $3.6M - not much. But I'm pretty sure that still counts against the cap on top of whatever other salaries we already have. Being so close to luxury tax, WeHam may not want to use it.

Normally it doesnt sound significant enough but with the talks about salary cap being decreased? You think we can use it to do something?

Could be a good sized deal to offer to someone like Clark/Ennis/MCW possibly? Not those guys specifically, since we already have their rights. Likely someone from this year's FA crop of that mould though - a scrappy journeyman, hopeful diamond in the rough.

Why bother? Until we land a star all of this roster shuffling is absolutely pointless.

BadMofoPimp · Post #1937 » by **BadMofoPimp** » Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:14 pm

The Real Dalic wrote:
thelead wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:Top priority for the Magic this offseason should be finding a way to trade Aminu off this team.

Yup. Fixing a mistake that this FO made a just year ago. Things are going well here...

To me, it's getting Fournier and DJ far away from this place and putting the ball in Fultz hands much more.

DJ and Fournier are much more productive than Aminu.

Post #1938 » by **Knightro** » Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:47 pm

Getting Aminu off the roster is not a priority. That's a nice to have thing, not a need to have thing.

Best case he's a 15-20 MPG backup forward.

MagicMatic · Post #1939 » by **MagicMatic** » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:27 am

BadMofoPimp wrote:
The Real Dalic wrote:
thelead wrote:Yup. Fixing a mistake that this FO made a just year ago. Things are going well here...

To me, it's getting Fournier and DJ far away from this place and putting the ball in Fultz hands much more.

DJ and Fournier are much more productive than Aminu.

Not the point.

Post #1940 » by **Knightro** » Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:30 am

Bobby Marks projects Evan Fournier would get 12-14M AAV on a new contract if he were to opt out.

Which begs the question... if Evan really does have a 3 year, 42M offer out there, will he actually consider opting out?

Yes, he'd be giving up 3M next year, but would he really be able to recoup 12.5M a year over the follow two years if he had a bad season?