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Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory

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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#821 » by Bensational » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:03 am

Knightro wrote:I definitely see both sides of the argument for a guy like LaVine.

On one hand, he’s only 25 years old and he’s coming off a season where he averaged 25.5 PPG with a +3.3 OBPM. That ranked just outside the top 20 players in the entire league and was 12th best in the entire NBA among non bigs. The guy can really score at at all three levels.

On the other hand, he’s statistically been a pretty miserable defender throughout his career and his teams have quite literally always been horrendously bad when he’s been on the floor.

I mean this is UGLY.

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The Magic would have to ask themselves three questions.

Is LaVine capable of giving better effort defensively?

If not, do the Magic have a sound enough defensive system/enough defensive talent at other positions to hide LaVine on a nightly basis?

Is LaVine capable of putting up big offensive stats within the context of a winning basketball team?

He’s never done any of the before.


We hid DJ on defense all last season, so I think we could hide LaVine no worries. MCW might be a better backcourt partner with him than Fultz until Fultz becomes a more committed defender, but Fultz should be able to cover the opposing lead guard.

With the likes of Isaac and Bamba floating around the paint it should still be a strong deterrent. If Okeke defends the lanes like he did in college that is an even bigger strength.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#822 » by PrimeThyme » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:05 am

When you look at his DBPM numbers and win shares he did improve defensively this year. Still not a plus player, but if he's going to be a 3.3 OBPM type guard while still maintaining an overall 2.5 BPM (2.4 Vorp as well) those are things I could probably live with. I don't disagree with any of the stat padding arguments tho. His shot selection is cringe-worthy at times as well.

With all that said though, It would be hard to deny that he would be a shot in the arm offensively for this team. He averaged 38% from 3 on close to 9 attempts this year and I think I can confidently say that he would become the best scorer on this team upon his arrival imo.

I don't buy into the season Fournier has had. I think its more of a mirage than anything. I expect his shooting percentages to tick back down to their career averages. Lavine, on the other hand, is 24 and should theoretically continue to improve. I don't know what I would give up for him though. I'd entertain an AG for Lavine swap but I'm not sure if Chicago would.

They could certainly get a better offer than Fournier and a pick. Mikal Bridges is who I would be targeting from Phx but I have a feeling he's very valued by that FO for good reason. I don't think AG and a pick would cut it.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#823 » by drsd » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:05 am

Gordon, Iwundu and Isaac are all listed Day-to-day on the injury report. Any updates on these three?
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#824 » by BadMofoPimp » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:26 pm

PrimeThyme wrote:When you look at his DBPM numbers and win shares he did improve defensively this year. Still not a plus player, but if he's going to be a 3.3 OBPM type guard while still maintaining an overall 2.5 BPM (2.4 Vorp as well) those are things I could probably live with. I don't disagree with any of the stat padding arguments tho. His shot selection is cringe-worthy at times as well.

With all that said though, It would be hard to deny that he would be a shot in the arm offensively for this team. He averaged 38% from 3 on close to 9 attempts this year and I think I can confidently say that he would become the best scorer on this team upon his arrival imo.

I don't buy into the season Fournier has had. I think its more of a mirage than anything. I expect his shooting percentages to tick back down to their career averages. Lavine, on the other hand, is 24 and should theoretically continue to improve. I don't know what I would give up for him though. I'd entertain an AG for Lavine swap but I'm not sure if Chicago would.

They could certainly get a better offer than Fournier and a pick. Mikal Bridges is who I would be targeting from Phx but I have a feeling he's very valued by that FO for good reason. I don't think AG and a pick would cut it.


Lavine is 25 and a half years old but I wouldn't mind having him. Doubt it happens tho. Nice story, bro.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#825 » by j-ragg » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:54 pm

Lavine’s shots would force Cliff to medically retire.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#826 » by Skybox » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:16 pm

Lavine all day if we can get him. I like Mikal, but he's not a big shot in the arm, he projects to be stable and reliable...Lavine is a MAJOR offensive weapon that we can surround with complementary support on both ends.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#827 » by zaymon » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:15 pm

Skybox wrote:Lavine all day if we can get him. I like Mikal, but he's not a big shot in the arm, he projects to be stable and reliable...Lavine is a MAJOR offensive weapon that we can surround with complementary support on both ends.

What part of Lavine offense you like better than Fournier ?
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#828 » by BadMofoPimp » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:34 pm

Lavine hasn't made any team better once he joined them. Something about that doesn't sit right with me. I wouldn't mind having him, but not at anything more than $20 mil per year firm and he makes $19.5. Doubt they take Fournier straigup for him tho.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#829 » by Magic_Johnny12 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:33 pm

How would a starting lineup of the following do?

Fultz
Lavine
Fournier
Isaac
Vucevic

Would we give up 120 pts nightly? Is Fournier an underrated defender? Can Isaac be our defensive anchor?
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#830 » by Def Swami » Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:54 pm

I've always been aware of those on/off numbers, but there's something about Lavine's game that has still made me a believer. I could be wrong, but I think he's naturally talented as a scorer and athlete, and those 2 things are exceptionally hard to find in the NBA together. Every team needs a guy that can create a bucket when it comes to the playoffs and from that standpoint, I think Lavine holds value there. He's the kind of player in the league the Magic have to poach not for what they are today, but what they can become; kind of like how Indiana lucked into Oladipo. I believe there's a really good basketball player to be unlocked. He would need the right situation and right coaching. There's no one on our team except for Isaac that I wouldn't trade to take a flyer on Lavine.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#831 » by KillMonger » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:00 pm

Magic_Johnny12 wrote:How would a starting lineup of the following do?

Fultz
Lavine
Fournier
Isaac
Vucevic

Would we give up 120 pts nightly? Is Fournier an underrated defender? Can Isaac be our defensive anchor?

fournier is azz defensively, no hope for him....Lavine? maybe a change of scenery could be good for him maybe we could get more out of him defensively.....Isaac? most definitely can be an anchor, think Prime Josh Smith on the defensive end....a terror defensively
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#832 » by Skybox » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:15 pm

zaymon wrote:
Skybox wrote:Lavine all day if we can get him. I like Mikal, but he's not a big shot in the arm, he projects to be stable and reliable...Lavine is a MAJOR offensive weapon that we can surround with complementary support on both ends.

What part of Lavine offense you like better than Fournier ?


I love his aggressiveness...5.6 fta
His sheer volume...25.5 ppg, 2nd leading scorer is at 14.7(Lauri), so you know defenses know he's coming, but ...
His playmaking off of his attacking...4.2 assists

So, he's going strong to the rim, highlight reel dunking on people while still hitting 3's at 38% on 8 attempts per game

His athleticism looks like the rest of our young guys, Clifford MAY get him to buy in to keeping his arms up :wink: with the promise of breakaway dunks. He's also big enough that Fultz will not be counted on to cover for him on D, or allow bigger SG's to cheat onto Fultz.

He's just an elite scorer, efficiency and elite individual defense is secondary to me at this point, given the complimentary nature of our other players. People want a spot up 3 and D guy to free up Fultz and Vuc from doubles, but Lavine (offensively) an even bigger magnet. He'll draw multiple defenders every time down the court, leaving Okeke, Vuc, whoever to shoot open 3's or clearer lanes. Maybe we won't have to concede offensive rebounds anymore because opponents won't be able to clog the lane waiting for Fultz and Vuc and AG to drive into the mess.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#833 » by Skybox » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:20 pm

25 ppg is 25 ppg. Not a lot of guys can do that, and he's not shooting 30% from the field. It's not like CHI is built around him as designated scorer like Iverson's 76ers or even Harden's Rockets. It's more like JJ at Duke. The whole country gameplans for him and only him and he still does it.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#834 » by pepe1991 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:26 pm

Lavine is good player. It's not his fault that he spent youth years with Wiggins and now plays for Jim Boylen.
And Bulls would be in much better position if they don't have many injuries.
Otto Porter costs $28M a year and guy played grand total of 14 games this year.

For crying out loud, Kriss Dunn is best PG Lavine ever played with :rofl: ( can't remember did he play with Rubio tho)

I just don't know what would Bulls want. With Wendell and Lavine and Porter they don't need Gordon. Evan can't even be traded until he takes player's option.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#835 » by thelead » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:26 pm

Listen, I'm well aware of his faults and even though I didn't want to draft him due to his immaturity, we need scoring. I believe in Fultz', AG's and Isaac's defense (and Chuma hopefully can contribute soon). I *think* Vuc might be okay enough on defense to make it all work. As skybox said: 25ppg is 25ppg. He does chuck shots but he is a gifted scorer and in the right system he can be a super efficient 23-25ppg scorer. He has the jumper, handle and athleticism to take it to another level with the right pieces around him and the right coach.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#836 » by Skybox » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:26 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:Lavine hasn't made any team better once he joined them. Something about that doesn't sit right with me. I wouldn't mind having him, but not at anything more than $20 mil per year firm and he makes $19.5. Doubt they take Fournier straigup for him tho.


I get this, but Jack Haley has rings and Charles Barkley doesn't. I'm not looking at Lavine in a vacuum, I think the fit in ORL would work to his strengths. If I'm the worst team in the league with no defensive identity, I'm staying away. For example, I don't think NYK is a good idea, because he'll get his points while they lose and take all the heat (like Starbury).
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#837 » by Skybox » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:28 pm

Question...Fultz always goes to the rim with strength and agility...why doesn't he get to the foul line? Is it just a "rookie" type bias/hasn't established himself to get the calls BS?
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#838 » by BadMofoPimp » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:33 pm

Skybox wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:Lavine hasn't made any team better once he joined them. Something about that doesn't sit right with me. I wouldn't mind having him, but not at anything more than $20 mil per year firm and he makes $19.5. Doubt they take Fournier straigup for him tho.


I get this, but Jack Haley has rings and Charles Barkley doesn't. I'm not looking at Lavine in a vacuum, I think the fit in ORL would work to his strengths. If I'm the worst team in the league with no defensive identity, I'm staying away. For example, I don't think NYK is a good idea, because he'll get his points while they lose and take all the heat (like Starbury).


Barkley always made teams better and even beent to the finals. What has Lavine do for his teams before throw up lots of shots and points? But, like I said, I think he could help Orlando maybe marginally better than Fournier mainly because of he is younger.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#839 » by Skybox » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:35 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:
Skybox wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:Lavine hasn't made any team better once he joined them. Something about that doesn't sit right with me. I wouldn't mind having him, but not at anything more than $20 mil per year firm and he makes $19.5. Doubt they take Fournier straigup for him tho.


I get this, but Jack Haley has rings and Charles Barkley doesn't. I'm not looking at Lavine in a vacuum, I think the fit in ORL would work to his strengths. If I'm the worst team in the league with no defensive identity, I'm staying away. For example, I don't think NYK is a good idea, because he'll get his points while they lose and take all the heat (like Starbury).


throw up lots of shots and points? .


THIS is a good thing
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Re: Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory 

Post#840 » by pepe1991 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:45 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:
Skybox wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:Lavine hasn't made any team better once he joined them. Something about that doesn't sit right with me. I wouldn't mind having him, but not at anything more than $20 mil per year firm and he makes $19.5. Doubt they take Fournier straigup for him tho.


I get this, but Jack Haley has rings and Charles Barkley doesn't. I'm not looking at Lavine in a vacuum, I think the fit in ORL would work to his strengths. If I'm the worst team in the league with no defensive identity, I'm staying away. For example, I don't think NYK is a good idea, because he'll get his points while they lose and take all the heat (like Starbury).


Barkley always made teams better and even beent to the finals. What has Lavine do for his teams before throw up lots of shots and points? But, like I said, I think he could help Orlando maybe marginally better than Fournier mainly because of he is younger.


Did you watch teams Lavine has been on?

Minessota before Butler trade : Wiggins taking 20 shots a night , Towns playing some Andrew Nicholson defense.

Moves to Bulls. Otto Porter misses majority of season, Lauri is out for 15 games, Carter is out for 20 games, Dunn is out for 15 games. They started 14 different players in starting lineup this year.

It's really hard to judge player if for vast majority of his career he is in crappy situations.

Unlike Evan, Lavine commands attention and lot of times double team. Where against Orlando today, teams mostly gang on Vuc and others are out there ,floating. In playoffs against Toronto that was best exploited. Others simply do not have talent to go supernova and drop 35 when oportunity is there.
Will Lavine take some crappy shots? Of course. But hey, it's not like Magic don't take some crappy shots right now.
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