ImageImageImageImage

Jonathan Isaac ran for the first time since Jan. 1 this week

Moderators: SOUL, UCFJayBird, Def Swami, Howard Mass, UCF, ChosenSavior, Knightro

The Effect
Magic Forum Mock Draft Co-Champ
Posts: 2,626
And1: 749
Joined: Jul 09, 2004

Re: Jonathan Isaac ran for the first time since Jan. 1 this week 

Post#61 » by The Effect » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:10 pm

Skybox wrote:We all love JI but while falling down the YouTube rabbit hole I came across a couple of profiles of his defensive impact. He's freaking amazing and while no one's completely untouchable, he's got to be pretty close based on his DPOY (I won't even call it potential).

His highlight reel is like the defense version of a Jason Williams highlight reel-looks like the greatest PG ever.

I dont know, Gobert is maybe the best defensive big since Dwight, and even before the corona incident, i heard rumors of him being on the block, so if hes available via trade (not saying for us, but in general), i dont see how a guy with even less of an offensive game and a long injury history, would be considered untouchable

JI is a very nice piece to have, but i wouldnt say untouchable, and ill be in the minority and say hes not worthy of a max (yes i know he'll get one, but i dont think he should) right now because of the 2 issues i mentioned.
User avatar
drsd
RealGM
Posts: 27,778
And1: 4,414
Joined: Mar 16, 2003
     

Re: Jonathan Isaac ran for the first time since Jan. 1 this week 

Post#62 » by drsd » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:30 pm

The Effect wrote:I dont know, Gobert is maybe the best defensive big since Dwight, and even before the corona incident, i heard rumors of him being on the block, so if hes available via trade (not saying for us, but in general), ....


Gobert is eligible for a super-Max. My question to you, should Orlando invest 40M+ a year for him on a five-year deal?



..
User avatar
MagicFan101
General Manager
Posts: 9,046
And1: 5,071
Joined: Jul 04, 2012
 

Re: Jonathan Isaac ran for the first time since Jan. 1 this week 

Post#63 » by MagicFan101 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:44 pm

drsd wrote:
The Effect wrote:I dont know, Gobert is maybe the best defensive big since Dwight, and even before the corona incident, i heard rumors of him being on the block, so if hes available via trade (not saying for us, but in general), ....


Gobert is eligible for a super-Max. My question to you, should Orlando invest 40M+ a year for him on a five-year deal?
..


500% No. Way. Never. Going. To. Happen.

Why would you even ask this??
User avatar
j-ragg
RealGM
Posts: 17,518
And1: 10,875
Joined: Mar 31, 2005
Location: the don't re-sign Hedo bandwagon.
   

Re: Jonathan Isaac ran for the first time since Jan. 1 this week 

Post#64 » by j-ragg » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:40 pm

drsd wrote:
The Effect wrote:I dont know, Gobert is maybe the best defensive big since Dwight, and even before the corona incident, i heard rumors of him being on the block, so if hes available via trade (not saying for us, but in general), ....


Gobert is eligible for a super-Max. My question to you, should Orlando invest 40M+ a year for him on a five-year deal?



..

We wouldn’t be allowed to offer him the super max.

We could offer him the max if we had the space (which we surely wouldn’t).

This idea is terrible but sounds like one Hammond could entertain.
BadMofoPimp wrote:Durant thinks Vooch is one of the Best Centers in the NBA. I will take his word over a couch-GM yelling at a TV.
User avatar
PrimeThyme
General Manager
Posts: 8,101
And1: 10,376
Joined: May 25, 2016
Location: Doak Campbell
 

Re: Jonathan Isaac ran for the first time since Jan. 1 this week 

Post#65 » by PrimeThyme » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:23 am

Pairing Gobert next to Isaac sounds great in a vacuum. But when you consider the fact we have 100m invested into Vuc and just spent a top 6 pick on his backup, it's not even up for debate how bad of an idea trading for him would be.
Image
User avatar
Dubious Kitty
Sophomore
Posts: 160
And1: 130
Joined: Feb 14, 2011
 

Re: Jonathan Isaac ran for the first time since Jan. 1 this week 

Post#66 » by Dubious Kitty » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:28 am

We need damn offense, not defensive guys like Gobert...the only reason the Utah team when works is because of their wing offense paired with Gobert. Without guys like Mitchell they’d be in the lottery
Bensational
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 22,968
And1: 8,704
Joined: Apr 10, 2001
     

Re: Jonathan Isaac ran for the first time since Jan. 1 this week 

Post#67 » by Bensational » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:29 am

We don't need Gobert, we've got Isaac AND Bamba.

Cliff has hardly played them together (injuries don't help) but in the small amount they played together this season their lineups did well across the board.

They're mostly 2nd unit lineups, largely paired with Ross and Augustin who carry the offensive load.

Against starters we will want some higher level scoring threats to partner with them, of similar capabilities. Fultz plus a couple of wings like Ross, but who can score off the dribble more from range.

Their top 3 lineups with Fultz are very strong, too.

Fournier is a good fit for that group. Someone like Hield, Beal, or CJ could be an upgrade. Okeke projects to be a good fitting 3.

Neismith and Lewis would be good fits as draft prospects, too.

But - we likely won't see those guys share the court much more for another season or two, until Vuc is moved. It's annoying, because a quality veteran SG or SF would stabilise those lineups as much as Vuc does, and he has the only 'star-sized' contract on the team. If we wanted to consolidate Vuc + Gordon, there's only one more season to get it done. Hopefully we get active this summer.
User avatar
drsd
RealGM
Posts: 27,778
And1: 4,414
Joined: Mar 16, 2003
     

Re: Jonathan Isaac ran for the first time since Jan. 1 this week 

Post#68 » by drsd » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:51 am

MagicFan101 wrote:
drsd wrote:
The Effect wrote:I dont know, Gobert is maybe the best defensive big since Dwight, and even before the corona incident, i heard rumors of him being on the block, so if hes available via trade (not saying for us, but in general), ....


Gobert is eligible for a super-Max. My question to you, should Orlando invest 40M+ a year for him on a five-year deal?
..


500% No. Way. Never. Going. To. Happen.

Why would you even ask this??


It was a rhetoric as to why:
a) it is impossible for Orlando Cap wise and b) it is not a good investment.
Gobert's next contract I predict will emerge as an albatross for Utah. Orlando should have ZERO interest in a player of Gorbert's talent making a salary line ABOVE James and Curry. It is ridiculous to fathom. But that is what it means to be a Jazz fan today.


j-ragg wrote:This idea is terrible but sounds like one Hammond could entertain.


Why would you think this?

Gorbert does not have the skill set that Orlando management has prioritized, in my opinion.
User avatar
drsd
RealGM
Posts: 27,778
And1: 4,414
Joined: Mar 16, 2003
     

Re: Jonathan Isaac ran for the first time since Jan. 1 this week 

Post#69 » by drsd » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:53 am

Back to Isaac: I am curious to see how his next tract evolves. What is his value? Is it mini-max? Is it mid range starter?

I see nothing less than a 100M 4-year deal.
zaymon
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,918
And1: 1,043
Joined: Jul 01, 2015
   

Re: Jonathan Isaac ran for the first time since Jan. 1 this week 

Post#70 » by zaymon » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:48 am

drsd wrote:Back to Isaac: I am curious to see how his next tract evolves. What is his value? Is it mini-max? Is it mid range starter?

I see nothing less than a 100M 4-year deal.

I think Hollinger estimated his value around 25M/ year, but i really hope we will get a discount.
Bold Predictions:
1. Deandre Ayton biggest disappointment of 2018 draft.
2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
User avatar
j-ragg
RealGM
Posts: 17,518
And1: 10,875
Joined: Mar 31, 2005
Location: the don't re-sign Hedo bandwagon.
   

Re: Jonathan Isaac ran for the first time since Jan. 1 this week 

Post#71 » by j-ragg » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:47 pm

drsd wrote:Why would you think this?

Gorbert does not have the skill set that Orlando management has prioritized, in my opinion.

Image
BadMofoPimp wrote:Durant thinks Vooch is one of the Best Centers in the NBA. I will take his word over a couch-GM yelling at a TV.
User avatar
MagicFan101
General Manager
Posts: 9,046
And1: 5,071
Joined: Jul 04, 2012
 

Re: Jonathan Isaac ran for the first time since Jan. 1 this week 

Post#72 » by MagicFan101 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:56 pm

drsd wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
drsd wrote:
Gobert is eligible for a super-Max. My question to you, should Orlando invest 40M+ a year for him on a five-year deal?
..


500% No. Way. Never. Going. To. Happen.

Why would you even ask this??


It was a rhetoric as to why:
a) it is impossible for Orlando Cap wise and b) it is not a good investment.
Gobert's next contract I predict will emerge as an albatross for Utah. Orlando should have ZERO interest in a player of Gorbert's talent making a salary line ABOVE James and Curry. It is ridiculous to fathom. But that is what it means to be a Jazz fan today.


j-ragg wrote:This idea is terrible but sounds like one Hammond could entertain.


Why would you think this?

Gorbert does not have the skill set that Orlando management has prioritized, in my opinion.


Not only is a super max to Gobert a very iffy move in general for any NBA team (including the Jazz), but even if Orlando had the cap space to sign him we just don’t have the roster for him. We should need to gut out big man rotation and somehow still add that star scoring guard to compliment him.

Once you see the entire picture you have to circle back to the initial stance that he isn’t a talent at position truly worthy of such a deal where I repeat ... why even bother asking this?
User avatar
Def Swami
Forum Mod - Magic
Forum Mod - Magic
Posts: 23,908
And1: 12,124
Joined: Aug 04, 2008
Location: Aaron Gordon Island
Contact:
     

Re: Jonathan Isaac ran for the first time since Jan. 1 this week 

Post#73 » by Def Swami » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:02 pm

zaymon wrote:
drsd wrote:Back to Isaac: I am curious to see how his next tract evolves. What is his value? Is it mini-max? Is it mid range starter?

I see nothing less than a 100M 4-year deal.

I think Hollinger estimated his value around 25M/ year, but i really hope we will get a discount.

Jaylen Brown re-signed with the Celtics last year for $115 million/4 years after a season averaging 13 ppg/4 rpg/1 apg and played in 74 games. It was paying off in a big way for the Celtics. Brown took a big leap this year in his role and production while also IMPROVING his efficiency. He went 20 ppg/6 rpg/2 apg on 49/38/73 splits.

Isaac at $100 mill/4 years would be tied with Vucevic for highest paid player on the team. Something about paying Isaac the highest on the team without showing the chops to be a lead guy on a team and his injury history sits awkwardly with me. I can buy the argument that he's the most valuable player on the team or as valuable as Vucevic. But, I think it speaks more to how fundamentally flawed our team is if our two highest paid players are probably not top 2 players on most playoff teams. The Brown contract doesn't look as pretty if his efficiency and production doesn't improve like it did. Brown's per 36 minute stats have always been better than Isaac's. So his production going up with more minutes wasn't too astounding, but his 3 point shooting becoming very good was a huge boon for the Celtics.

$100 million/4 years for Isaac is a bet that he's going to get better, which is a bet that I'd rather make than Vucevic leading the team to deep playoff runs or Aaron Gordon developing into an all-star, Evan Fournier learning to pass, or Markelle Fultz finding himself again. Isaac's value is probably in the tier that Brown's was last year. It's probably going to look more awkward without a Kemba Walker or Jayson Tatum level talent surrounding the roster. The Magic will eventually have to move some players around to make the room for Isaac's contract, especially with the salary cap to likely be lower over the next 2 seasons (that will also assuredly impact Isaac's overall contract, which will likely be less than the $100 million we are talking about).
User avatar
PrimeThyme
General Manager
Posts: 8,101
And1: 10,376
Joined: May 25, 2016
Location: Doak Campbell
 

Re: Jonathan Isaac ran for the first time since Jan. 1 this week 

Post#74 » by PrimeThyme » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:39 pm

I'd have no issue with that kind of contract for Isaac if it wasn't for the injury history. He was showing this year that he will at some point be a DPOY candidate and a perennial all-defensive type player. I just don't think he or Fultz has shown enough health-wise to get those kinds of contracts yet.

I'd prefer both to hit restricted free agency so that we can buy some time and see if they can remain healthy. The positive risk of them developing into stars and earning more money is a risk i'd rather take than them signing a big contract beforehand and getting injured again.
Image
pepe1991
RealGM
Posts: 11,714
And1: 9,359
Joined: Jan 10, 2016
   

Re: Jonathan Isaac ran for the first time since Jan. 1 this week 

Post#75 » by pepe1991 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:15 pm

Pointless to talk about $$$ when in times nobody has clear idea what salary cap will look like going forward.
"A straight path never leads anywhere except to the objective."
Andre Gide
jezzerinho
Sophomore
Posts: 171
And1: 100
Joined: Jul 08, 2019
     

Re: Jonathan Isaac ran for the first time since Jan. 1 this week 

Post#76 » by jezzerinho » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:45 pm

Well you can certainly talk about % of the cap you dedicate to a player.
basketballRob
General Manager
Posts: 8,617
And1: 3,148
Joined: May 05, 2014
     

Re: Jonathan Isaac ran for the first time since Jan. 1 this week 

Post#77 » by basketballRob » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:54 pm

When Isaac and Fultz get new contracts they'll get more usage. Coaches like Clifford always seem to find more usage for players going into a contract year too.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app
User avatar
EasternMagic
RealGM
Posts: 15,204
And1: 912
Joined: Oct 17, 2007
Location: Orlando
     

Re: Jonathan Isaac ran for the first time since Jan. 1 this week 

Post#78 » by EasternMagic » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:22 am

The Effect wrote:
Skybox wrote:We all love JI but while falling down the YouTube rabbit hole I came across a couple of profiles of his defensive impact. He's freaking amazing and while no one's completely untouchable, he's got to be pretty close based on his DPOY (I won't even call it potential).

His highlight reel is like the defense version of a Jason Williams highlight reel-looks like the greatest PG ever.

I dont know, Gobert is maybe the best defensive big since Dwight, and even before the corona incident, i heard rumors of him being on the block, so if hes available via trade (not saying for us, but in general), i dont see how a guy with even less of an offensive game and a long injury history, would be considered untouchable

JI is a very nice piece to have, but i wouldnt say untouchable, and ill be in the minority and say hes not worthy of a max (yes i know he'll get one, but i dont think he should) right now because of the 2 issues i mentioned.


While I won't flat out say that calling JI injury prone is wrong, you do have to factor in the types of injuries that he's sustained. Year one's ankle injuries, okay ya, you can probably chalk those up to him being rail thin and not having an NBA body. However, this year's knee injury was a bit more fluke-y. By that I mean, any player in that situation would have sustained a similar, if not a worse injury. I wouldn't file this year's injury in the "this guy's body is just too fragile for the NBA" folder.

Again, yes, he's missed well over half of the games in 2 of his first three seasons due to injury, so it's hard to conclude that he's not injury-prone. But his sustainability seemed to be on the rise after year one, and I don't think this year's wild knee injury is cause for too much concern just quite yet.
User avatar
EasternMagic
RealGM
Posts: 15,204
And1: 912
Joined: Oct 17, 2007
Location: Orlando
     

Re: Jonathan Isaac ran for the first time since Jan. 1 this week 

Post#79 » by EasternMagic » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:30 am

Def Swami wrote:
zaymon wrote:
drsd wrote:Back to Isaac: I am curious to see how his next tract evolves. What is his value? Is it mini-max? Is it mid range starter?

I see nothing less than a 100M 4-year deal.

I think Hollinger estimated his value around 25M/ year, but i really hope we will get a discount.

Jaylen Brown re-signed with the Celtics last year for $115 million/4 years after a season averaging 13 ppg/4 rpg/1 apg and played in 74 games. It was paying off in a big way for the Celtics. Brown took a big leap this year in his role and production while also IMPROVING his efficiency. He went 20 ppg/6 rpg/2 apg on 49/38/73 splits.

Isaac at $100 mill/4 years would be tied with Vucevic for highest paid player on the team. Something about paying Isaac the highest on the team without showing the chops to be a lead guy on a team and his injury history sits awkwardly with me. I can buy the argument that he's the most valuable player on the team or as valuable as Vucevic. But, I think it speaks more to how fundamentally flawed our team is if our two highest paid players are probably not top 2 players on most playoff teams. The Brown contract doesn't look as pretty if his efficiency and production doesn't improve like it did. Brown's per 36 minute stats have always been better than Isaac's. So his production going up with more minutes wasn't too astounding, but his 3 point shooting becoming very good was a huge boon for the Celtics.

$100 million/4 years for Isaac is a bet that he's going to get better, which is a bet that I'd rather make than Vucevic leading the team to deep playoff runs or Aaron Gordon developing into an all-star, Evan Fournier learning to pass, or Markelle Fultz finding himself again. Isaac's value is probably in the tier that Brown's was last year. It's probably going to look more awkward without a Kemba Walker or Jayson Tatum level talent surrounding the roster. The Magic will eventually have to move some players around to make the room for Isaac's contract, especially with the salary cap to likely be lower over the next 2 seasons (that will also assuredly impact Isaac's overall contract, which will likely be less than the $100 million we are talking about).


Yes, I think that the biggest pitfall to Isaac's potential, outside of his injuries, is the fact that WeltHam has, so far, failed to build a cohesive roster.

I'm hopeful for Isaac's development, but he's going to have to prove himself to be more sustainable and more offensively efficient before I'd be comfortable ponying up a $100 mill+ contract for him. He's got some time to get there.
The Effect
Magic Forum Mock Draft Co-Champ
Posts: 2,626
And1: 749
Joined: Jul 09, 2004

Re: Jonathan Isaac ran for the first time since Jan. 1 this week 

Post#80 » by The Effect » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:38 am

drsd wrote:
The Effect wrote:I dont know, Gobert is maybe the best defensive big since Dwight, and even before the corona incident, i heard rumors of him being on the block, so if hes available via trade (not saying for us, but in general), ....


Gobert is eligible for a super-Max. My question to you, should Orlando invest 40M+ a year for him on a five-year deal?



..

of course not, and my point wasnt that we should trade gobert for JI, what im saying is that the best defensive player in the league is available for trade, so to say JI is untouchable is farfetched

And before you ask, no i wouldnt give JI the max, let alone the super max. He hasnt shown he can stay healthy for any long period of time dating back to college (maybe longer, didnt look into it)

Return to Orlando Magic