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Vuc...anchor or albatross?

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Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#1 » by Skybox » Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:12 pm

I'm jonesing for discussion, so...

The OBVIOUS thing is to move AG for a "true" SF...but, what about trading Vuc (if you can)? Here's the question (I don't know how to do a poll)...

If we moved Vuc for an equivalent talent at another spot (or the best we could get), do the Magic :

(a) Immediately improve with a more perimeter-oriented offense led by Fultz at a breakneck pace with AG regaining his efficiency from a year ago (not forcing), and Bamba delivering Gobert-like D and acceptable floor spreading after being thrown into the fire?

or...

(b) self-destruct deep into the lottery with the painful lesson that Vuc IS an All-Star level offensive force to build around and the kids are not yet ready for prime time? The grass isn't always greener
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#2 » by Driguez » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:00 pm

A)

Losing a star/superstar will "self destruct" any team. Vuc is not a star/superstar. We wouldn't be too far off where we are today not taking into consideration what kind of talent we get in return.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#3 » by fateis007 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:26 pm

It boils down to the market. Orlando hasn't been a big time free agent destination if years, and here we have a player that is a fringe allstar, wanting to be here.

So if you do make a trade, it has to be for someone that wants to think of Orlando as long term or is locked up for a few years.

I mean Mo can't even back down Marcus smart, so he is obviously not ready to take the lead. Do you really think an undersized center like Khem Birch is a starter on a playoff team?
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#4 » by MagicFan101 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:10 pm

How about (c) Neither

An anchor to me is a game changing star. He isn’t that but he is a very good player capable of making the end of the bench of the all-star game once in a while.

Is he an Albatross? He is the 23rd highest paid player in the league this season BUT he has a decreasing contract placing him at #44, 35, 29 37 over the remaining years of his contract. Given many young players in the league are due new deals he will go WAAAAAAAAAY down on that list very soon.

So financially he absolutely is NOT an albatross. How about skill? Well, Vuc is the second best passing C in the league (by stats) and hits 33% of his 3-pts from the C position which is an asset.

Vuc is clearly neither of these extremes. He is an ASSET.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#5 » by Skybox » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:16 pm

To be clear, I personally don't have any doubt that Vuc is the best player on the Magic today...my internal debate is how would the team play without him? Are they building a system around a scheme that features him but, maybe, limits the rest of the young guys developing to their best? If Fultz takes another big step - is Vuc the right complementary player or would AG, Isaac, Wiggins(?), DeRozan(?), Hayward(?), TRoss, Okeke, Bamba, Evan bloom around his speed, ability to finish, and penetration? I'm not putting it all on Fultz (or Vuc) but I wouldn't be surprised if FO's plan is to be move on as soon as we can and the "Vuc" system kept us competitive for a playoff spot while we sorted out pieces...I really appreciate Vuc but there's an exciting, fast-paced vision that might suit these agile longbois better...if they learn to shoot a bit (or does the motion open their shots up?)
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#6 » by fendilim » Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:28 am

I have my doubts on Vuc being traded until Bamba can prove he is a worthy replacement.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#7 » by JRoy » Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:44 am

Doubt ORL can get real value for Vooch.

He’s a solid player but looks more like a great second option on a great defensive team.

He reminds me a little bit of LMA in terms of style and impact; real nice player, not the best player on a contender, maybe a little overpaid.

Tough to find a team that needs that and willing to give up something ORL wants to get it.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#8 » by Skybox » Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:36 pm

JRoy wrote:Doubt ORL can get real value for Vooch.

He’s a solid player but looks more like a great second option on a great defensive team.

He reminds me a little bit of LMA in terms of style and impact; real nice player, not the best player on a contender, maybe a little overpaid.

Tough to find a team that needs that and willing to give up something ORL wants to get it.


My question is more about what happens to Orl without him...obviously, who you get for him plays a big part but I wasn’t thinking so much of his value but the massive Systemic change it would cause in Orl...good, eventual good, or terrible crash?

Similar to...”Fournier is obviously best shooter on team but when he’s out, the team shoots better overall” (not starting second debate, just framing what I hoped for in OP)
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#9 » by j-ragg » Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:56 pm

I don't think we'd miss much without him or without any other single player here. Usage can go elsewhere. We're a 30-35 team.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#10 » by drsd » Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:46 pm

Vučević is a top-8 Center in the NBA and is on a favorable contract. Is he aplyer to build a team around?

No for two reasons.

1) This is no longer a league that favors Center capacities to an NBA game.
2) Whereas Vučević has a bunch of useful NBA skills, he in not a star. 20/10 is not enough.


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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#11 » by drsd » Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:48 pm

j-ragg wrote:I don't think we'd miss much without him or without any other single player here. Usage can go elsewhere. We're a 30-35 team.


I totally, totally disagree with this though line. Without Vučević, Orlando would be the Hawks. Vučević is the reason orlando has capacity to wi games i the first place.



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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#12 » by zaymon » Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:03 pm

Vucevic is one of the best center passers in the game, propably second behind Jokic. Gasol passing was one of the main reasons Raptors won championship last year, Jokic leads a team without stars to playoffs in tough west, Adebayo is core of miami offense, Sabonis leads overperforming Pacers, Horford cemented many great teams over the years with his passing.
Vucevic carries our sorry asses second time in a row to the playoffs, without a lead ball handler. Vucevic is not Jokic, he doesnt possess great ball handling and therefore he cant be a lead ball handler on a contender BUT he can be a great second option on a contender. Can we win without Vucevic ? Sure, if Fournier scores 30 pts a game on 60% true shooting, or if Fultz regains his shot, and pre nba form.
Is it possible that our best chance to win is getting Fultz to full health and play him WITH Vucevic ???? I guess we can only build around Vucevic or trade him, no middle road....
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#13 » by jezzerinho » Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:42 pm

I'm going to wait and see how Vooch does in this year's playoffs. But I have my doubts about his value to this team outside of his contract years. He's unquestionably talented but I don't believe he can lead the team or be fully depended upon in crunch moments.

If we had a lightning stick player on the roster, it probably wouldn't matter and we could enjoy his skillset as it is. But we need more from him and he can't give it.

I'd move on from him if the right trade came along, unless he delivers in the playoffs against top centers.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#14 » by Driguez » Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:54 pm

zaymon wrote: I guess we can only build around Vucevic or trade him, no middle road....


Vuc is a good player, but as our first option will not carry our sorry asses anywhere but a first round exit with his 11/8. He is not on that "carry" anyone level. Second/third option at best... Seems we have too many of those.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#15 » by Skybox » Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:30 pm

I strongly disagree with the whole "He's been our leader for 10 years and delivered nothing so move him" narrative. Maybe he hasn't had any help. Maybe he would gladly play second fiddle to a GOOD player. Same with Evan...It's frustrating to be called a black hole when the alternative is to pass to someone who will miss.

But, maybe Bamba would be MUCH farther along if the team demanded results from him instead of "bad play, you're out, put the starter back in"...question isn't strictly about Bamba's readiness either, how would the team play system-wise. To me, a Bamba/Isaac/AG front court with a fully-realized Fultz and a 20ppg+ guy next to him (could it be Evan in a different scheme? or Lavine or DeRozan or Wiggins or Beal or CJ or Levert or...?) is a WHOLE different game...maybe better, maybe disastrous-thats the nature of the whole thread (intended).
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#16 » by zaymon » Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:36 pm

If Fultz is really as good as our front office believes we wont have to rely on Vucevic and Fournier as much as we do now. Both of.them compliment Markelle really well with their shooting and passing. The odd man out is Gordon who is not a reliable shooter, cant be a secondary ball handler becouse his handle is weak and cant protect the rim from the weak side. If we believe in Fultz we should stick to Vucevic and Fournier, if not we will bottom out soon enough and it wont matter.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#17 » by Xatticus » Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:09 pm

Skybox wrote:I strongly disagree with the whole "He's been our leader for 10 years and delivered nothing so move him" narrative. Maybe he hasn't had any help. Maybe he would gladly play second fiddle to a GOOD player. Same with Evan...It's frustrating to be called a black hole when the alternative is to pass to someone who will miss.

But, maybe Bamba would be MUCH farther along if the team demanded results from him instead of "bad play, you're out, put the starter back in"...question isn't strictly about Bamba's readiness either, how would the team play system-wise. To me, a Bamba/Isaac/AG front court with a fully-realized Fultz and a 20ppg+ guy next to him (could it be Evan in a different scheme? or Lavine or DeRozan or Wiggins or Beal or CJ or Levert or...?) is a WHOLE different game...maybe better, maybe disastrous-thats the nature of the whole thread (intended).


This is just the wrong way to look at it. The time to move him has come and gone. If you couldn't get value in return on his last contract, there is no chance of it on his current contract. At this point, it would cost us assets to move his contract. He isn't worth anything near what he is earning and so he is a negative asset. He is miscast as a high-volume centerpiece on this roster. He isn't talented enough for the role. His per game averages are simply a function of his playing time and usage.

He isn't actually good in the post. He has ranged from average to awful over the course of his career. It is a gift when opposing defenses send a double-team at him. He is immobile. He doesn't advance his position after he catches the ball. He makes good decisions, but he is stationary anytime the ball is in his hands. He is vastly improved as a screener, but he isn't a particularly good roll man because he lacks the athleticism to finish above the rim. He simply isn't dynamic.

There is a place for him in this league, but his role should be that of a poor man's Brook Lopez. The problem is that we are paying him twice what Lopez is earning. He isn't the rim protector that Lopez is, but he could provide the same value at the offensive end as a ball mover and spacer. Credit to him and his agent for extracting as much money as he has from this organization, but it certainly isn't going to help us accomplish anything meaningful. It's such a massive waste of resources and he has zero positional versatility.

As to your initial query... I could argue that he is both. He is an anchor in that he prevents us from going anywhere. That probably wasn't your intent when you used the metaphor, but an anchor isn't actually a good thing unless you are in a good place, which we aren't. His contract is a problem. This makes him an albatross. Are there worse contracts? Sure. So he isn't the biggest albatross. That doesn't make it any more palatable.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#18 » by MagicMatic » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:08 am

Xatticus wrote:
Skybox wrote:I strongly disagree with the whole "He's been our leader for 10 years and delivered nothing so move him" narrative. Maybe he hasn't had any help. Maybe he would gladly play second fiddle to a GOOD player. Same with Evan...It's frustrating to be called a black hole when the alternative is to pass to someone who will miss.

But, maybe Bamba would be MUCH farther along if the team demanded results from him instead of "bad play, you're out, put the starter back in"...question isn't strictly about Bamba's readiness either, how would the team play system-wise. To me, a Bamba/Isaac/AG front court with a fully-realized Fultz and a 20ppg+ guy next to him (could it be Evan in a different scheme? or Lavine or DeRozan or Wiggins or Beal or CJ or Levert or...?) is a WHOLE different game...maybe better, maybe disastrous-thats the nature of the whole thread (intended).


This is just the wrong way to look at it. The time to move him has come and gone. If you couldn't get value in return on his last contract, there is no chance of it on his current contract. At this point, it would cost us assets to move his contract. He isn't worth anything near what he is earning and so he is a negative asset. He is miscast as a high-volume centerpiece on this roster. He isn't talented enough for the role. His per game averages are simply a function of his playing time and usage.

He isn't actually good in the post. He has ranged from average to awful over the course of his career. It is a gift when opposing defenses send a double-team at him. He is immobile. He doesn't advance his position after he catches the ball. He makes good decisions, but he is stationary anytime the ball is in his hands. He is vastly improved as a screener, but he isn't a particularly good roll man because he lacks the athleticism to finish above the rim. He simply isn't dynamic.

There is a place for him in this league, but his role should be that of a poor man's Brook Lopez. The problem is that we are paying him twice what Lopez is earning. He isn't the rim protector that Lopez is, but he could provide the same value at the offensive end as a ball mover and spacer. Credit to him and his agent for extracting as much money as he has from this organization, but it certainly isn't going to help us accomplish anything meaningful. It's such a massive waste of resources and he has zero positional versatility.

As to your initial query... I could argue that he is both. He is an anchor in that he prevents us from going anywhere. That probably wasn't your intent when you used the metaphor, but an anchor isn't actually a good thing unless you are in a good place, which we aren't. His contract is a problem. This makes him an albatross. Are there worse contracts? Sure. So he isn't the biggest albatross. That doesn't make it any more palatable.


Couldn’t have put this better myself.

Is he an anchor? Sure, for a fringe playoff team lacking a go-to player.

Is he an albatross? Sure, for the simple fact that he’s a negative contract at a position with the least value.

So he’s both.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#19 » by PrimeThyme » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:24 am

I will continue to pushback on the notion that Vuc is an asset with his current contract. It's not realistic to assume that we could move him for an equivalent player at another position because a center with Vuc's skillset is arguably the least desired in the new modern NBA.

If you look at the numbers and advanced metrics his 3pt shooting has come back down to earth (32% which is far below league average) and his defensive metrics are inching closer to his career averages across the board.

I got ripped for comparing Valanciunas's contract to the one Vuc signed last offseason, but idk, look at his numbers this season and the advanced metrics and tell me if Vuc is worth more than 10 million compared to what Val is making (also on a declining contract with one less year).
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#20 » by Skybox » Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:57 am

Let me chop the initial question down to keep it simple...if Vuc leaves the team as it stands (injury?) and the Coach/FO has time to adjust game plans...how will the team play differently? And will they stink or jump ahead in development?

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