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Vuc...anchor or albatross?

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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#81 » by j-ragg » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:01 pm

I asked it earlier but has any player ever been a part of a team this long in recent history w/ such little success as a team? I don’t even mean this negatively toward him (as hard as that may be to believe).

There’s just so much turnaround in the NBA usually. Much more so for teams that aren’t contenders. This can also go for Fournier and AG in a couple years, but are there any other recent examples of this?

I said earlier Drummond was only one to come to mind but he was traded for a 2nd round pick. Looks like they finally decided their long needed rebuild is coming.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#82 » by MagicStarwipe » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:09 pm

j-ragg wrote:I asked it earlier but has any player ever been a part of a team this long in recent history w/ such little success as a team? I don’t even mean this negatively toward him (as hard as that may be to believe).

There’s just so much turnaround in the NBA usually. Much more so for teams that aren’t contenders. This can also go for Fournier and AG in a couple years, but are there any other recent examples of this?

I said earlier Drummond was only one to come to mind but he was traded for a 2nd round pick. Looks like they finally decided their long needed rebuild is coming.


Just off the top of my head... Mitch Richmond on the Kings?
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#83 » by j-ragg » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:19 pm

MagicStarwipe wrote:
j-ragg wrote:I asked it earlier but has any player ever been a part of a team this long in recent history w/ such little success as a team? I don’t even mean this negatively toward him (as hard as that may be to believe).

There’s just so much turnaround in the NBA usually. Much more so for teams that aren’t contenders. This can also go for Fournier and AG in a couple years, but are there any other recent examples of this?

I said earlier Drummond was only one to come to mind but he was traded for a 2nd round pick. Looks like they finally decided their long needed rebuild is coming.


Just off the top of my head... Mitch Richmond on the Kings?

Good call. Only 7 seasons but they stunk with him. Immediately got better when he left.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#84 » by Skybox » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:29 pm

We circle back to the initial intended question posed by the thread...

Assumptions/Truths...Vuc is a good player (not debatable), Bamba is not better than Vuc right now, there is probably not a strong trade market for Vuc without some significant risk coming back-so, assume keeping Vuc is the "safe" move.

The Question...What happens to the Magic IF Vuc is moved and Bamba has to step in?
-Do we crash and burn due to our complete lack of offensive firepower?
-Do we assess, adapt our offense to suit our other personnel and become a high-speed quick-strike dunkfest around Fultz?

...my guess, hope, poke is we get Wiggins (and his mammoth deal), Bamba struggles but Fultz goes berserk, averaging 18/10. Evan opts in for the money but finds that he flourishes as secondary ball handler like a CJ McC in POR. This was Evan's role, apparently, on French national team...he scores 22 a game with 5 assists. Bamba improves but is still basically an offensive non-factor (like Gobert) but with a little more of a threat from deep (2 makes a game @ 35%), also 2 outback's and 2.5 blocks with 10 rbs. He embraces the Gobert role and steadily "gets it" with Isaac being a great example of defensive anticipation, etc. Then there's DPOY candidate Isaac, AG loving the lane-filling and more action on the offensive glass (knowing that JI and Bamba have his back on the other end), Ross, Okeke, #15, and whoever we can get for Vuc (Wiggins makes sense from both sides and, despite his warts, has scored a LOT, if inefficiently). That's a fun team, especially if we swing away with our pick, perhaps for a Maxey or Nesmith, who can light it up on any given night.

Maybe we're not a top 5 defensive team but there's still a lot of length and speed out there and, theoretically, a faster game with a deeper lineup with more firepower would lead to a fan-friendly ball moving style with Fultz, AG, JI ripping and running up court to catch the others on their heels (like Giannis routinely does). There are certainly holes here but I'd pay to see it.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#85 » by Bensational » Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:22 pm

Skybox wrote:We circle back to the initial intended question posed by the thread...

Assumptions/Truths...Vuc is a good player (not debatable), Bamba is not better than Vuc right now, there is probably not a strong trade market for Vuc without some significant risk coming back-so, assume keeping Vuc is the "safe" move.

The Question...What happens to the Magic IF Vuc is moved and Bamba has to step in?
-Do we crash and burn due to our complete lack of offensive firepower?
-Do we assess, adapt our offense to suit our other personnel and become a high-speed quick-strike dunkfest around Fultz?

...my guess, hope, poke is we get Wiggins (and his mammoth deal), Bamba struggles but Fultz goes berserk, averaging 18/10. Evan opts in for the money but finds that he flourishes as secondary ball handler like a CJ McC in POR. This was Evan's role, apparently, on French national team...he scores 22 a game with 5 assists. Bamba improves but is still basically an offensive non-factor (like Gobert) but with a little more of a threat from deep (2 makes a game @ 35%), also 2 outback's and 2.5 blocks with 10 rbs. He embraces the Gobert role and steadily "gets it" with Isaac being a great example of defensive anticipation, etc. Then there's DPOY candidate Isaac, AG loving the lane-filling and more action on the offensive glass (knowing that JI and Bamba have his back on the other end), Ross, Okeke, #15, and whoever we can get for Vuc (Wiggins makes sense from both sides and, despite his warts, has scored a LOT, if inefficiently). That's a fun team, especially if we swing away with our pick, perhaps for a Maxey or Nesmith, who can light it up on any given night.

Maybe we're not a top 5 defensive team but there's still a lot of length and speed out there and, theoretically, a faster game with a deeper lineup with more firepower would lead to a fan-friendly ball moving style with Fultz, AG, JI ripping and running up court to catch the others on their heels (like Giannis routinely does). There are certainly holes here but I'd pay to see it.


The problem is, teams rarely pay good value for C's on the trade market. In my mind, a Wiggins/Vuc swap would help both teams, but GSW don't seem to want to spend money on C's anymore. There are maybe a handful of decent players that we could swap for straight up that would make sense for both teams (in my mind).

Vuc for Hield?
Vuc for DeRozan?
Vuc for Powell + filler/TPE?
Vuc for JJ + NAW + filler?
Vuc + Fournier for Hayward + Smart + Langford?

I think most of the new Magic teams built from those deals would give us a similar record to what we're seeing now, but at the very least it would force a rethink on our style of play. DeRozan is probably the only deal I wouldn't want to do, as he'd be a poor fit with our other players.

I'd also use the opportunity to try Isaac at the 5 for stretches in games.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#86 » by Xatticus » Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:39 am

Bensational wrote:
Skybox wrote:We circle back to the initial intended question posed by the thread...

Assumptions/Truths...Vuc is a good player (not debatable), Bamba is not better than Vuc right now, there is probably not a strong trade market for Vuc without some significant risk coming back-so, assume keeping Vuc is the "safe" move.

The Question...What happens to the Magic IF Vuc is moved and Bamba has to step in?
-Do we crash and burn due to our complete lack of offensive firepower?
-Do we assess, adapt our offense to suit our other personnel and become a high-speed quick-strike dunkfest around Fultz?

...my guess, hope, poke is we get Wiggins (and his mammoth deal), Bamba struggles but Fultz goes berserk, averaging 18/10. Evan opts in for the money but finds that he flourishes as secondary ball handler like a CJ McC in POR. This was Evan's role, apparently, on French national team...he scores 22 a game with 5 assists. Bamba improves but is still basically an offensive non-factor (like Gobert) but with a little more of a threat from deep (2 makes a game @ 35%), also 2 outback's and 2.5 blocks with 10 rbs. He embraces the Gobert role and steadily "gets it" with Isaac being a great example of defensive anticipation, etc. Then there's DPOY candidate Isaac, AG loving the lane-filling and more action on the offensive glass (knowing that JI and Bamba have his back on the other end), Ross, Okeke, #15, and whoever we can get for Vuc (Wiggins makes sense from both sides and, despite his warts, has scored a LOT, if inefficiently). That's a fun team, especially if we swing away with our pick, perhaps for a Maxey or Nesmith, who can light it up on any given night.

Maybe we're not a top 5 defensive team but there's still a lot of length and speed out there and, theoretically, a faster game with a deeper lineup with more firepower would lead to a fan-friendly ball moving style with Fultz, AG, JI ripping and running up court to catch the others on their heels (like Giannis routinely does). There are certainly holes here but I'd pay to see it.


The problem is, teams rarely pay good value for C's on the trade market. In my mind, a Wiggins/Vuc swap would help both teams, but GSW don't seem to want to spend money on C's anymore. There are maybe a handful of decent players that we could swap for straight up that would make sense for both teams (in my mind).

Vuc for Hield?
Vuc for DeRozan?
Vuc for Powell + filler/TPE?
Vuc for JJ + NAW + filler?
Vuc + Fournier for Hayward + Smart + Langford?

I think most of the new Magic teams built from those deals would give us a similar record to what we're seeing now, but at the very least it would force a rethink on our style of play. DeRozan is probably the only deal I wouldn't want to do, as he'd be a poor fit with our other players.

I'd also use the opportunity to try Isaac at the 5 for stretches in games.


I can't imagine why GS would want to pay $25M per year for a guy that isn't even going to make it past midcourt for a large share of their offensive possessions.

Vucevic is a nice offensive player, but it isn't because he scores 20 points a night. He is a ball mover. He greases the wheels. He'll make good decisions, but any offense with him involved is going to be plodding. That's not Golden St.

I just don't see why GS has to move Wiggins. They can wait for a deal they like while they rebuild his value. Everyone looks better in that offense and I expect that Wiggins will as well. I also rather doubt that GS would want to deal with Vucevic's defensive limitations. Wiggins isn't a good defender, but he is so much easier to slot into a lineup and he doesn't wreck your ability to switch.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#87 » by Bensational » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:53 am

Xatticus wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Skybox wrote:We circle back to the initial intended question posed by the thread...

Assumptions/Truths...Vuc is a good player (not debatable), Bamba is not better than Vuc right now, there is probably not a strong trade market for Vuc without some significant risk coming back-so, assume keeping Vuc is the "safe" move.

The Question...What happens to the Magic IF Vuc is moved and Bamba has to step in?
-Do we crash and burn due to our complete lack of offensive firepower?
-Do we assess, adapt our offense to suit our other personnel and become a high-speed quick-strike dunkfest around Fultz?

...my guess, hope, poke is we get Wiggins (and his mammoth deal), Bamba struggles but Fultz goes berserk, averaging 18/10. Evan opts in for the money but finds that he flourishes as secondary ball handler like a CJ McC in POR. This was Evan's role, apparently, on French national team...he scores 22 a game with 5 assists. Bamba improves but is still basically an offensive non-factor (like Gobert) but with a little more of a threat from deep (2 makes a game @ 35%), also 2 outback's and 2.5 blocks with 10 rbs. He embraces the Gobert role and steadily "gets it" with Isaac being a great example of defensive anticipation, etc. Then there's DPOY candidate Isaac, AG loving the lane-filling and more action on the offensive glass (knowing that JI and Bamba have his back on the other end), Ross, Okeke, #15, and whoever we can get for Vuc (Wiggins makes sense from both sides and, despite his warts, has scored a LOT, if inefficiently). That's a fun team, especially if we swing away with our pick, perhaps for a Maxey or Nesmith, who can light it up on any given night.

Maybe we're not a top 5 defensive team but there's still a lot of length and speed out there and, theoretically, a faster game with a deeper lineup with more firepower would lead to a fan-friendly ball moving style with Fultz, AG, JI ripping and running up court to catch the others on their heels (like Giannis routinely does). There are certainly holes here but I'd pay to see it.


The problem is, teams rarely pay good value for C's on the trade market. In my mind, a Wiggins/Vuc swap would help both teams, but GSW don't seem to want to spend money on C's anymore. There are maybe a handful of decent players that we could swap for straight up that would make sense for both teams (in my mind).

Vuc for Hield?
Vuc for DeRozan?
Vuc for Powell + filler/TPE?
Vuc for JJ + NAW + filler?
Vuc + Fournier for Hayward + Smart + Langford?

I think most of the new Magic teams built from those deals would give us a similar record to what we're seeing now, but at the very least it would force a rethink on our style of play. DeRozan is probably the only deal I wouldn't want to do, as he'd be a poor fit with our other players.

I'd also use the opportunity to try Isaac at the 5 for stretches in games.


I can't imagine why GS would want to pay $25M per year for a guy that isn't even going to make it past midcourt for a large share of their offensive possessions.

Vucevic is a nice offensive player, but it isn't because he scores 20 points a night. He is a ball mover. He greases the wheels. He'll make good decisions, but any offense with him involved is going to be plodding. That's not Golden St.

I just don't see why GS has to move Wiggins. They can wait for a deal they like while they rebuild his value. Everyone looks better in that offense and I expect that Wiggins will as well. I also rather doubt that GS would want to deal with Vucevic's defensive limitations. Wiggins isn't a good defender, but he is so much easier to slot into a lineup and he doesn't wreck your ability to switch.


I can see Wiggins falling into a support role on that Warriors team and ending up Barnes 2.0. The reason I can see them wanting to move him is the risk he doesn't fulfil enough of the value of his contract to get him into conversations for big upgrades. And he is a super expensive and less effective replacement for Iggy, let alone Durant. I just feel like they're going to realise quickly how little depth they have and that a combo of guys like Aminu + Fournier/Gordon would serve them better on a championship run.

With most of that core hitting the 30 mark or having crossed it, GSW have 4 seasons to slowly add players to their depth for the future. It's going to be interesting to see how they balance that out.

I think Vuc would do fine on their team and within their offense with his skill set. But with Draymond they don't need to worry about committing so many resources to a big man who can only play and defend one position, so they're best off spending it on more versatile wings. As we should have been doing.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#88 » by pepe1991 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:33 am

Xatticus wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Skybox wrote:We circle back to the initial intended question posed by the thread...

Assumptions/Truths...Vuc is a good player (not debatable), Bamba is not better than Vuc right now, there is probably not a strong trade market for Vuc without some significant risk coming back-so, assume keeping Vuc is the "safe" move.

The Question...What happens to the Magic IF Vuc is moved and Bamba has to step in?
-Do we crash and burn due to our complete lack of offensive firepower?
-Do we assess, adapt our offense to suit our other personnel and become a high-speed quick-strike dunkfest around Fultz?

...my guess, hope, poke is we get Wiggins (and his mammoth deal), Bamba struggles but Fultz goes berserk, averaging 18/10. Evan opts in for the money but finds that he flourishes as secondary ball handler like a CJ McC in POR. This was Evan's role, apparently, on French national team...he scores 22 a game with 5 assists. Bamba improves but is still basically an offensive non-factor (like Gobert) but with a little more of a threat from deep (2 makes a game @ 35%), also 2 outback's and 2.5 blocks with 10 rbs. He embraces the Gobert role and steadily "gets it" with Isaac being a great example of defensive anticipation, etc. Then there's DPOY candidate Isaac, AG loving the lane-filling and more action on the offensive glass (knowing that JI and Bamba have his back on the other end), Ross, Okeke, #15, and whoever we can get for Vuc (Wiggins makes sense from both sides and, despite his warts, has scored a LOT, if inefficiently). That's a fun team, especially if we swing away with our pick, perhaps for a Maxey or Nesmith, who can light it up on any given night.

Maybe we're not a top 5 defensive team but there's still a lot of length and speed out there and, theoretically, a faster game with a deeper lineup with more firepower would lead to a fan-friendly ball moving style with Fultz, AG, JI ripping and running up court to catch the others on their heels (like Giannis routinely does). There are certainly holes here but I'd pay to see it.


The problem is, teams rarely pay good value for C's on the trade market. In my mind, a Wiggins/Vuc swap would help both teams, but GSW don't seem to want to spend money on C's anymore. There are maybe a handful of decent players that we could swap for straight up that would make sense for both teams (in my mind).

Vuc for Hield?
Vuc for DeRozan?
Vuc for Powell + filler/TPE?
Vuc for JJ + NAW + filler?
Vuc + Fournier for Hayward + Smart + Langford?

I think most of the new Magic teams built from those deals would give us a similar record to what we're seeing now, but at the very least it would force a rethink on our style of play. DeRozan is probably the only deal I wouldn't want to do, as he'd be a poor fit with our other players.

I'd also use the opportunity to try Isaac at the 5 for stretches in games.


I can't imagine why GS would want to pay $25M per year for a guy that isn't even going to make it past midcourt for a large share of their offensive possessions.

Vucevic is a nice offensive player, but it isn't because he scores 20 points a night. He is a ball mover. He greases the wheels. He'll make good decisions, but any offense with him involved is going to be plodding. That's not Golden St.

I just don't see why GS has to move Wiggins. They can wait for a deal they like while they rebuild his value. Everyone looks better in that offense and I expect that Wiggins will as well. I also rather doubt that GS would want to deal with Vucevic's defensive limitations. Wiggins isn't a good defender, but he is so much easier to slot into a lineup and he doesn't wreck your ability to switch.


Wiggins is definition of player that has no purpose on Warriors team.
He is horrific spot up shooter with bad shot selection, dumb as bricks when it comes to decision making and complete liability on defense. Especially when you know Warriors need elite wing defense to cover for Curry.
On top of that he can't even move a ball. His career APG to TO ratio is almost 1:1. (1065 to 954)

This year, in order to put pretty "slim" 3,6 apg ( by far career high) ,he turns the ball over 2,6 times a game.
It's no secret that Wiggins is the worst NBA contract due lenght, production and complete inability to ulitize him in any positive way.

BB reference put "points added when player shoots FG" , Wiggins index is -548 ( that's minus), for career ( for comparison Vuc is +74, GIannis +449).

If Warriors want to do that trade it's being done for 2 reasons:
1) Klay and Curry are old and banged up, there is no way they will keep pushing super fast pace any more
2) anything > Wiggins when it comes to basketball value
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#89 » by drsd » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:29 am

Skybox wrote:We circle back to the initial intended question posed by the thread...

Assumptions/Truths...Vuc is a good player (not debatable), Bamba is not better than Vuc right now, there is probably not a strong trade market for Vuc without some significant risk coming back-so, assume keeping Vuc is the "safe" move.

The Question...What happens to the Magic IF Vuc is moved and Bamba has to step in?
-Do we crash and burn due to our complete lack of offensive firepower?
-Do we assess, adapt our offense to suit our other personnel and become a high-speed quick-strike dunkfest around Fultz?

...my guess, hope, poke is we get Wiggins (and his mammoth deal), Bamba struggles but Fultz goes berserk, averaging 18/10. Evan opts in for the money but finds that he flourishes as secondary ball handler like a CJ McC in POR. This was Evan's role, apparently, on French national team...he scores 22 a game with 5 assists. Bamba improves but is still basically an offensive non-factor (like Gobert) but with a little more of a threat from deep (2 makes a game @ 35%), also 2 outback's and 2.5 blocks with 10 rbs. He embraces the Gobert role and steadily "gets it" with Isaac being a great example of defensive anticipation, etc. Then there's DPOY candidate Isaac, AG loving the lane-filling and more action on the offensive glass (knowing that JI and Bamba have his back on the other end), Ross, Okeke, #15, and whoever we can get for Vuc (Wiggins makes sense from both sides and, despite his warts, has scored a LOT, if inefficiently). That's a fun team, especially if we swing away with our pick, perhaps for a Maxey or Nesmith, who can light it up on any given night.

Maybe we're not a top 5 defensive team but there's still a lot of length and speed out there and, theoretically, a faster game with a deeper lineup with more firepower would lead to a fan-friendly ball moving style with Fultz, AG, JI ripping and running up court to catch the others on their heels (like Giannis routinely does). There are certainly holes here but I'd pay to see it.



I agree on the Vučević / Bamba narrative.


Wiggens: are you floating the Gordon trade here? Do you thing Gordon and Orlando's FRP for Wiggens and GSW's FRP is plausible?



..
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#90 » by Skybox » Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:43 am

I I was only talking about Vuc/Wig here. The trade makes GSW better NOW. NOW is the only timeframe for GSW. Rings are hard to come by, they need to go all in while Steph and Klay are elite...same with POR, BRK, etc...nobody with a shot at a ring should pump the brakes or choose a rookie or plan for post-superstar plans. Even if only for $$$ reasons...unless GSW thinks Wiggins helps them contend tnext season, they should look for veteran depth while they’re still championship relevant.

On a similar note, I’m not a believer in “slow organic rebuild” after a few solid pieces are drafted and/or developed, a FO has a better chance of swinging a big trade to make a leap rather than just methodically continue...I think that’s where ORL is...look at MIA, multiple times in their history...this IS a business, fans want excitement and hope, not a farm system.

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