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Vuc...anchor or albatross?

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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#21 » by jezzerinho » Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:18 am

Board wisdom dictates that we'd move to a high paced transition offense, using Fultz like Mitchell and Isaac like Siakam, with Gordon crashing boards at both ends and Ross/Fournier trailing for easy 3s. Bamba using his phenomenal speed for a center and his nice 3pt form.

It wouldnt happen. Clifford is a defence first, PnR guy who loves the inside-out game to collapse defences and find open shooters. We play at a slow pace to minimise turnovers, allow our defence to set when we lose possession and to control the clock. I don't see Clifford compromising much on those tenets.

I don't see what we couldn't play like that with Vuc on the team. Problem is he's a crutch for our offence and it would take balls toinimise his impact in order to maximise the roles of less mature players.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#22 » by AdamTheGreek » Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:01 am

Two things I want to point out about Vooch this season:
1. Nik won Eastern Conference Player of the Week in November, then immediately got hurt in Toronto and was out almost a month. It took him until basically the All-Star Break to get back to an ideal form.

2. In the 10 games (6-4 record) he's played since the All-Star Break, Nik is averaging 21.8 ppg, 12.0 reg, 3.8 apg on 52.0 FG% (and that's factoring a very low 23.5 3PT% weighting it down) and 80.0 FT%. That's just about right on par with his All-Star stats last season.

I really want the Magic to nab 7th and take on Toronto in the playoffs because I want to see what Nik can do with this opportunity at redemption. Marc Gasol losing a lot of weight I think favors Vooch. Nik struggles most with thick dudes like Valanciunas and wide Marc. I get it, the Raptors are the 2nd seed. Nurse gets a lot out of guys who in particular built themselves up from their great G-League affiliate. But 2 of the three guys who killed us last year are gone. And while everyone focuses on Kawhi, don't forget Danny Green won a regular season game last season at the buzzer against us. Green was a big reason Fournier looked bad on both ends. In a neutral setting, I really think the Magic can do some damage in a 7-game series.

Until Bamba shows he's capable of taking on more responsibility, Vooch is badly needed if we want to remain a playoff team. Mo needs at least another full year of physical and player development before the conversation can truly be had. Mo is making progress, but Vooch is an All-Star, and Mo has plenty of catching up to do.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#23 » by MagicFan101 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:21 pm

drsd wrote:
j-ragg wrote:I don't think we'd miss much without him or without any other single player here. Usage can go elsewhere. We're a 30-35 team.


I totally, totally disagree with this though line. Without Vučević, Orlando would be the Hawks. Vučević is the reason orlando has capacity to wi games i the first place.



\..



“Without Vuc, Orlando would be the Hawks”

You must mean in terms of a serious injury where we are still stuck with his salary? But this misses the point of the conversation — as usual.

Vuc makes quite a bit of money; nothing absurd but it is a good bit. Vuc is a solid contributor who helps us win but he is not irreplaceable at that amount of $$. We can find another contributor.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#24 » by Skybox » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:10 pm

Follow up question...IF Vuc went down with an injury(or was moved for a non-big man) and Bamba HAD to start...he would no doubt have a rough time but...how would he do overall? Would he average a double-double with 3 blocks? Would he and Isaac (by the end of the year) form the most fearsome defensive octopus in the league? Would they both finish in the top 3 in blocks (along with Rudy)? Obviously, Mo is a LONG way from replacing Vuc's scoring and passing but IF that could be made up elsewhere, or we had no choice but to play Mo 30 mins...how would he look?
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#25 » by zaymon » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:17 pm

Skybox wrote:Follow up question...IF Vuc went down with an injury(or was moved for a non-big man) and Bamba HAD to start...he would no doubt have a rough time but...how would he do overall? Would he average a double-double with 3 blocks? Would he and Isaac (by the end of the year) form the most fearsome defensive octopus in the league? Would they both finish in the top 3 in blocks (along with Rudy)? Obviously, Mo is a LONG way from replacing Vuc's scoring and passing but IF that could be made up elsewhere, or we had no choice but to play Mo 30 mins...how would he look?

Well Bamba is a worse defender at this stage even against reserves, and you literally cant pass to him on offense, unless its a wide open spot up 3. Vucevic was injured this season and Clifford played our 3rd string center before Bamba, which says Bamba ability is below 3rd string center at this stage of his development.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#26 » by cwas2882 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:21 pm

Why not both?

Sometimes he's an anchor and he weighs the team down.

Sometimes he's an albatross and he helps us soarrrrr!!!!
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#27 » by Bensational » Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:19 pm

Skybox wrote:Follow up question...IF Vuc went down with an injury(or was moved for a non-big man) and Bamba HAD to start...he would no doubt have a rough time but...how would he do overall? Would he average a double-double with 3 blocks? Would he and Isaac (by the end of the year) form the most fearsome defensive octopus in the league? Would they both finish in the top 3 in blocks (along with Rudy)? Obviously, Mo is a LONG way from replacing Vuc's scoring and passing but IF that could be made up elsewhere, or we had no choice but to play Mo 30 mins...how would he look?


When Vuc went down to start the season we went 5-6 without him. That is with Mo only playing 18mpg and still being a raw 2nd year player. Over the last 15 games with Vuc back and the team playing in the best shape of the season we went 8-8, with Mo only playing 12mpg.

Over the last 15 games we played, Mo's per 36 puts him at a 16ppg, 13.5rpg, 4bpg C who shoots 40% from 3. Those are the same numbers Mo was putting up (in per36) when Vuc went down, too. He's still raw, but he will get there.

Bamba
Gordon
Isaac
XXXX
Fultz

If that SG slot was filled by a bonafide lead scorer, I think our current standard of play (fringe playoff team) would be our floor. Beal, CJ, DeRozan, maybe even Brown, Dinwiddie, LaVine, LeVert or Brogdon could likely keep us at this level. Fournier kept us there when Vuc went down and he shot 60% from 3, and whilst that's clearly not sustainable, it shows that just having one proper lead scorer can make all the difference.

We would certainly take steps back in some areas whilst Mo continues to develop, but we might see some benefits - namely increased shot blocking and deterrence in the paint, and improved 3 point shooting.

Vuc isn't hurting the team by being here, by any stretch. Would that money be better invested in trying to find a quality wing? I would say so.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#28 » by basketballRob » Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:09 pm

I think Vucevic's impact to winning is overrated.

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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#29 » by zaymon » Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:18 pm

Maybe i will ask different question. Can Vucevic be a second offensive option on a contender ?
If Fultz transforms into Dwayne Wade with a 3 point shot, and is our lead ball handler, does Vucevic has necessary skills to be a valueable player ?
Pluses:
1. He has 3 point range. Right now his efficiency is not very good, but its only second season he uses it regularly.
2. He is a great big man passer. His handle is too limited to create for himself much, but he can exploit every mistake opposing defenses make. His vision is great, his accuracy is great, and he is a quick decision maker. His assist/ turnover ratio is on par with the best guards and point forwards. He passes out of post ups, high post, short roll.
3. He can attack a close out. Quite mobile for a center.
4. He is great rebounder.
5. Good, smart defender in drop coverege. Doesnt make many mistakes.
6. Very good post up player, when he can establish a position near the rim.
Minuses:
1. Limited handle. Cant create much on the perimeter.
2. Not physical, bad at drawing fouls.
3. Not explosive, faster players can finish around him when help defender doesnt come.
4. Not a vertical athlete, limited in some aspects as a roller.

If Fultz becomes a star he needs someone to play with. Vucevic can pop, he can pass out of short roll, he can finish around the rim. ( he cant catch lobs). Fultz can bypass a guard without a screen so every shooter is even more valueable. Fultz is a good cutter and Vucevic has enough vision and passing skill to deliver.
My question is why Vucevic cant be a really good second option ? His deficiences are lethal for a lead ball handler, but as a secondary creator, what he really lacks ? He even developed into solid defender. His positioning is great, he doesnt make many mistakes on rotations, he is fairly mobile even on the perimeter. Yes he is not explosive and better players can finish over him, but luckily we have Isaac to deter potential drivers. What is a better allocation of 20 millions to play with Fultz if he blossoms ?
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#30 » by drsd » Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:33 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:Vuc is a solid contributor who helps us win but he is not irreplaceable at that amount of $$. We can find another contributor.



Can you please names four Centers in the NBA that are as accomplished as Vučević on smaller contracts, with respect.


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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#31 » by drsd » Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:35 pm

basketballRob wrote:I think Vucevic's impact to winning is overrated.


Dear moderators: when is the MINUS-one button going to appear for us?


Not to be snarky, but, really??? Vučević' game leads to wins. Those wins are not sexy, but winning need not be sexy.


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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#32 » by MagicFan101 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:48 pm

drsd wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:Vuc is a solid contributor who helps us win but he is not irreplaceable at that amount of $$. We can find another contributor.



Can you please names four Centers in the NBA that are as accomplished as Vučević on smaller contracts, with respect.


..


Why does that production have to come from the center position?

Spend that money elsewhere on the roster at a position where it is easier to find quality talent. As you are implying, 7 foot talent is rare. So don’t force it. Most teams are building their teams around other positions and using the center as a role player or defensive helper and little else.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#33 » by jezzerinho » Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:50 pm

drsd wrote:
basketballRob wrote:I think Vucevic's impact to winning is overrated.


Dear moderators: when is the MINUS-one button going to appear for us?


Not to be snarky, but, really??? Vučević' game leads to wins. Those wins are not sexy, but winning need not be sexy.


..


Yes, to be snarky. No need for it.

Vooch, as Orlando plays, is absolutely key to their offence and definitely key to winning. The question is whether that play style and the quantity of wins is a) enough for the fans and 2) the best the roster could deliver if Vooch and his salary were swapped out.

I tend to think we could do better. Mainly because results bear out the league's collective decision that investing big in centers is not efficient and because Vooch is too often found wanting when we need him to step up under pressure.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#34 » by CPBalla2003 n da 863 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:44 am

It really depends on Mo's development... I'm fine with Vooch staying during the rest of his contract. At some point... Mo is going to have to show improvement or become an asset on a rookie scale contract. Vooch got the tools to be a nice 2nd or 3rd option when some talent who is currently on this team can ascend... Vooch is what he is at this point... It's up to this young talent(Isaac, Bamba, Fultz) to learn in playoff environments and grow in certain aspects of their games.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#35 » by basketballRob » Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:21 pm

Vuc is so god awful on defense, that i can't see him being a focal part of any successful team.

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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#36 » by Knightro » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:15 am

CPBalla2003 n da 863 wrote:It really depends on Mo's development... I'm fine with Vooch staying during the rest of his contract. At some point... Mo is going to have to show improvement or become an asset on a rookie scale contract. Vooch got the tools to be a nice 2nd or 3rd option when some talent who is currently on this team can ascend... Vooch is what he is at this point... It's up to this young talent(Isaac, Bamba, Fultz) to learn in playoff environments and grow in certain aspects of their games.


I've been as hard on Bamba as anyone on this board, but it's undeniable he's improved in Year 2.

RPM Year 1: -4.56
RPM Year 2: -1.64

BPM Year 1: -1.4
BPM Year 2: +0.5

Plus/Minus Per 100 Year 1: -14.1
Plus/Minus Per 100 Year 2: +3.0

Plus/Minus NET Year 1: -18.8
Plus/Minus NET Year 2: +5.5

His three best assets - rebounding, shot blocking and 3PT shooting - have all improved from his rookie year.

He's not where he needs to be, but he's definitely getting better.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#37 » by CPBalla2003 n da 863 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:00 am

Knightro wrote:
CPBalla2003 n da 863 wrote:It really depends on Mo's development... I'm fine with Vooch staying during the rest of his contract. At some point... Mo is going to have to show improvement or become an asset on a rookie scale contract. Vooch got the tools to be a nice 2nd or 3rd option when some talent who is currently on this team can ascend... Vooch is what he is at this point... It's up to this young talent(Isaac, Bamba, Fultz) to learn in playoff environments and grow in certain aspects of their games.


I've been as hard on Bamba as anyone on this board, but it's undeniable he's improved in Year 2.

RPM Year 1: -4.56
RPM Year 2: -1.64

BPM Year 1: -1.4
BPM Year 2: +0.5

Plus/Minus Per 100 Year 1: -14.1
Plus/Minus Per 100 Year 2: +3.0

Plus/Minus NET Year 1: -18.8
Plus/Minus NET Year 2: +5.5

His three best assets - rebounding, shot blocking and 3PT shooting - have all improved from his rookie year.

He's not where he needs to be, but he's definitely getting better.


For sure, There have been improvements, I agree... But i'm on board to let him marinate a lil bit while he works on his stamina and strength. hopefully at some point when we see the increase in his minutes and hopefully his numbers are still rising.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#38 » by Ducklett » Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:12 am

zaymon wrote:If Fultz is really as good as our front office believes we wont have to rely on Vucevic and Fournier as much as we do now. Both of.them compliment Markelle really well with their shooting and passing. The odd man out is Gordon who is not a reliable shooter, cant be a secondary ball handler becouse his handle is weak and cant protect the rim from the weak side. If we believe in Fultz we should stick to Vucevic and Fournier, if not we will bottom out soon enough and it wont matter.


When is "soon enough"? 4 years? 8?
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#39 » by zaymon » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:04 am

Ducklett wrote:
zaymon wrote:If Fultz is really as good as our front office believes we wont have to rely on Vucevic and Fournier as much as we do now. Both of.them compliment Markelle really well with their shooting and passing. The odd man out is Gordon who is not a reliable shooter, cant be a secondary ball handler becouse his handle is weak and cant protect the rim from the weak side. If we believe in Fultz we should stick to Vucevic and Fournier, if not we will bottom out soon enough and it wont matter.


When is "soon enough"? 4 years? 8?

4 seems about right ;)
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#40 » by drsd » Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:26 am

MagicFan101 wrote:“Without Vuc, Orlando would be the Hawks”

You must mean in terms of a serious injury where we are still stuck with his salary? But this misses the point of the conversation — as usual.

Vuc makes quite a bit of money; nothing absurd but it is a good bit. Vuc is a solid contributor who helps us win but he is not irreplaceable at that amount of $$. We can find another contributor.


Nope. What I mean is that Vučević is the anchor core of defensive rebounding and team defense. He fails eye tests, but statistically, Vučević is a very good two-way player in the NBA. His value divided by salary is very good by league standards.


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