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Vuc...anchor or albatross?

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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#41 » by basketballRob » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:07 am

drsd wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:“Without Vuc, Orlando would be the Hawks”

You must mean in terms of a serious injury where we are still stuck with his salary? But this misses the point of the conversation — as usual.

Vuc makes quite a bit of money; nothing absurd but it is a good bit. Vuc is a solid contributor who helps us win but he is not irreplaceable at that amount of $$. We can find another contributor.


Nope. What I mean is that Vučević is the anchor core of defensive rebounding and team defense. He fails eye tests, but statistically, Vučević is a very good two-way player in the NBA. His value divided by salary is very good by league standards.


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The reason he's a good defensive rebounder is he rarely leaves the paint. The opponents guard and center can run a pick and give the guard a wide open 3 point shot. If Vuc steps up a little the guard can blow by him.

Mo is only slightly better than Vuc guarding the perimeter, that's why I think player like Isaac might be our best option.

The blueprint to beat the Celtics with Walker or the Raptors is Isaac at center.

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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#42 » by MagicFan101 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:06 pm

drsd wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:“Without Vuc, Orlando would be the Hawks”

You must mean in terms of a serious injury where we are still stuck with his salary? But this misses the point of the conversation — as usual.

Vuc makes quite a bit of money; nothing absurd but it is a good bit. Vuc is a solid contributor who helps us win but he is not irreplaceable at that amount of $$. We can find another contributor.


Nope. What I mean is that Vučević is the anchor core of defensive rebounding and team defense. He fails eye tests, but statistically, Vučević is a very good two-way player in the NBA. His value divided by salary is very good by league standards.


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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#43 » by AdamTheGreek » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:49 pm

basketballRob wrote:Vuc is so god awful on defense, that i can't see him being a focal part of any successful team.

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Read Robbins' Athletic piece on analytics of Bamba and Vucevic, and your mind may be changed.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#44 » by drsd » Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:28 pm

AdamTheGreek wrote:
basketballRob wrote:Vuc is so god awful on defense, that i can't see him being a focal part of any successful team.

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Read Robbins' Athletic piece on analytics of Bamba and Vucevic, and your mind may be changed.


This is really the point !

I accept many here fail Vučević on their respective eye-tests. But Bamba is horrible on offence and defense by all metrics. And that is as a back-up. The idea that Bamba is an upgrade over Vučević by many here makes my head hurt.


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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#45 » by PrimeThyme » Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:51 pm

It's just hard for me in today's NBA to consider any defender who can't defend in space "good". Is Vuc a good post defender and rebounder? Sure. But a lot of those skills just aren't as valued in today's game. When we go against strong guard play who can effectively PnR us we get flat out exposed. Clifford has both Vuc and Bamba drop back 10 feet and consistently give up high percentage 3pt shots and mid-rangers (to players who make them at an above average clip). The Indiana game earlier in the year is a great example of this, but there are countless more (Portland, Charlotte last year, etc).

Some argue that this is Clifford's design, and while I would agree, I would also argue that it's his design because he has two centers that do not have the ability to guard in space. Weltman's "model" is to have players who can switch all 5 positions but the value of that is greatly diminished when you have a center who can't and an opposing team who can spam PnR's and consistently get that favorable matchup.

It's partly why a lot of us like Isaac's potential at the 5. Having the true ability to switch positions 1-5 is something that is very intriguing and is imo the key to a great defense in today's game.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#46 » by yoyojw17 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:52 pm

drsd wrote:
AdamTheGreek wrote:
basketballRob wrote:Vuc is so god awful on defense, that i can't see him being a focal part of any successful team.

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Read Robbins' Athletic piece on analytics of Bamba and Vucevic, and your mind may be changed.


This is really the point !

I accept many here fail Vučević on their respective eye-tests. But Bamba is horrible on offence and defense by all metrics. And that is as a back-up. The idea that Bamba is an upgrade over Vučević by many here makes my head hurt.


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To me Vuc is a great center. He's by no means a perfect stalwart of a defender like people want... but in a structured defensive system... he does his part. Hell... we are a top defensive team at points during the last 2 years with him as our center. Let's not act like he doesn't contribute to that success. lol

actually funny thing is.... some people always focus on what our player can't do and does not praise them enough for what they can do great and what sets them apart from the rest. Other than Jokic... what other true center has the same combination of scoring, shooting, rebounding, and passing. not many at all. Jokic is still a superior offensive player...but it is safe to argue that he is a better defender than jokic.

I think as one of the constants over the last 8 years... people wrongfully associate Vuc and losing.... and that is not 100% fair.

I believe we've seen the tip of the iceberg for fultz.... and i believe the organization feels the same as well. Our current roster, in my opinion, works great with what i envision Fultz to bring to the team. We can tell.... when the ball is placed in his hands more.... he gets everyone involved and efficiency spikes.

I'm not against trading some our players... but it better be for something that will fit... make sense... and has quality. not just making a trade just to make a trade/ or for namesake. I do believe in continuity and i can see how it will work in our case.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#47 » by PrimeThyme » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:21 pm

drsd wrote:But Bamba is horrible on offence and defense by all metrics. And that is as a back-up. The idea that Bamba is an upgrade over Vučević by many here makes my head hurt.

That's misleading imo. To start, I don't put weight into a lot of the metrics/advanced stats when it comes to centers in the first place due to many of them not being accurate representations of how good at something the player actually is, but if we are going to play that game, let's at least play it fairly.

Have a look for yourself:
Spoiler:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Mo+Bamba&player_id1_select=Mo+Bamba&player_id1=bambamo01&idx=bbr__players&y1=2020&player_id2_hint=Nikola+Vu%C4%8Devi%C4%87&player_id2_select=Nikola+Vu%C4%8Devi%C4%87&player_id2=vucevni01&idx=bbr__players&y2=2020


TRB%, BLK%, DBPM, and DRTG all favor Bamba. He actually has a 1.7 DBPM this year which I believe is second-highest on the team (behind Isaac). If we are just talking about the advanced stats and metrics here, he is far from horrible and quite comparable to Vuc, defensively that is.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#48 » by basketballRob » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:41 pm

PrimeThyme wrote:
drsd wrote:But Bamba is horrible on offence and defense by all metrics. And that is as a back-up. The idea that Bamba is an upgrade over Vučević by many here makes my head hurt.

That's misleading imo. To start, I don't put weight into a lot of the metrics/advanced stats when it comes to centers in the first place due to many of them not being accurate representations of how good at something the player actually is, but if we are going to play that game, let's at least play it fairly.

Have a look for yourself:
Spoiler:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Mo+Bamba&player_id1_select=Mo+Bamba&player_id1=bambamo01&idx=bbr__players&y1=2020&player_id2_hint=Nikola+Vu%C4%8Devi%C4%87&player_id2_select=Nikola+Vu%C4%8Devi%C4%87&player_id2=vucevni01&idx=bbr__players&y2=2020


TRB%, BLK%, DBPM, and DRTG all favor Bamba. He actually has a 1.7 DBPM this year which I believe is second-highest on the team (behind Isaac). If we are just talking about the advanced stats and metrics here, he is far from horrible and quite comparable to Vuc, defensively that is.
Bamba is clearly a better defender than Vucevic.

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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#49 » by Bensational » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:23 pm

drsd wrote:
AdamTheGreek wrote:
basketballRob wrote:Vuc is so god awful on defense, that i can't see him being a focal part of any successful team.

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Read Robbins' Athletic piece on analytics of Bamba and Vucevic, and your mind may be changed.


This is really the point !

I accept many here fail Vučević on their respective eye-tests. But Bamba is horrible on offence and defense by all metrics. And that is as a back-up. The idea that Bamba is an upgrade over Vučević by many here makes my head hurt.

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I haven't seen a single person say that Bamba would be an upgrade. They've said that the amount of money and team focus we've afforded Vuc could have been spent elsewhere, whilst Bamba could probably do a serviceable job at the 5.

The reason your head hurts is because you have to keep moving goalposts and inventing counter-narratives to accomodate valuing Vuc so highly.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#50 » by j-ragg » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:50 pm

drsd wrote:
AdamTheGreek wrote:
basketballRob wrote:Vuc is so god awful on defense, that i can't see him being a focal part of any successful team.

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Read Robbins' Athletic piece on analytics of Bamba and Vucevic, and your mind may be changed.

But Bamba is horrible on offence and defense by all metrics.

By all metrics? Just admit you don’t look at the numbers next time.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#51 » by GelbeWand09 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:53 pm

j-ragg wrote:
drsd wrote:
AdamTheGreek wrote:
Read Robbins' Athletic piece on analytics of Bamba and Vucevic, and your mind may be changed.

But Bamba is horrible on offence and defense by all metrics.

By all metrics? Just admit you don’t look at the numbers next time.


TBH i have the feeling for a long time, that he is stuck in the 90's. He writes like a nerd but uses only ol skool metrics. :lol:
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#52 » by j-ragg » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:02 pm

GelbeWand09 wrote:
j-ragg wrote:
drsd wrote:But Bamba is horrible on offence and defense by all metrics.

By all metrics? Just admit you don’t look at the numbers next time.


TBH i have the feeling for a long time, that he is stuck in the 90's. He writes like a nerd but uses only ol skool metrics. :lol:

lol he’s a physician (or PhD?) I believe so I’m sure he is a nerd. And seems like a nice guy but does use pretty old school way of looking at stats. Only real modern one I’ve seen him use is PER which is kind of a silly one.

We’re all homers in the end and most people have player favorites so I get it.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#53 » by basketballRob » Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:31 pm

j-ragg wrote:
GelbeWand09 wrote:
j-ragg wrote:By all metrics? Just admit you don’t look at the numbers next time.


TBH i have the feeling for a long time, that he is stuck in the 90's. He writes like a nerd but uses only ol skool metrics.

lol he’s a physician (or PhD?) I believe so I’m sure he is a nerd. And seems like a nice guy but does use pretty old school way of looking at stats. Only real modern one I’ve seen him use is PER which is kind of a silly one.

We’re all homers in the end and most people have player favorites so I get it.
He's always been pro Vuc and he's taken shots at Bamba every chance he gets.

I do like him, but disagree about Vucevic.

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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#54 » by drsd » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:33 pm

PrimeThyme wrote:
drsd wrote:But Bamba is horrible on offence and defense by all metrics. And that is as a back-up. The idea that Bamba is an upgrade over Vučević by many here makes my head hurt.

That's misleading imo. To start, I don't put weight into a lot of the metrics/advanced stats when it comes to centers in the first place due to many of them not being accurate representations of how good at something the player actually is, but if we are going to play that game, let's at least play it fairly.

Have a look for yourself:
Spoiler:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Mo+Bamba&player_id1_select=Mo+Bamba&player_id1=bambamo01&idx=bbr__players&y1=2020&player_id2_hint=Nikola+Vu%C4%8Devi%C4%87&player_id2_select=Nikola+Vu%C4%8Devi%C4%87&player_id2=vucevni01&idx=bbr__players&y2=2020


TRB%, BLK%, DBPM, and DRTG all favor Bamba. He actually has a 1.7 DBPM this year which I believe is second-highest on the team (behind Isaac). If we are just talking about the advanced stats and metrics here, he is far from horrible and quite comparable to Vuc, defensively that is.



?

These metrics show that Vučević had better offensive and deceive metrics. And win shares and all that. Look: we all want Bamba to be excellent as Vučević is at the tail end of his career. Here I hold hope.


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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#55 » by drsd » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:36 pm

basketballRob wrote:Bamba is clearly a better defender than Vucevic.


There is not a single quantitative measure that supports this statement.


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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#56 » by drsd » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:38 pm

j-ragg wrote:By all metrics? Just admit you don’t look at the numbers next time.


Others just listed the metrics illustrating quantitatively that Vučević is not only a better defender today, he was a better defender than Bamba age matched.


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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#57 » by drsd » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:40 pm

j-ragg wrote:By all metrics? Just admit you don’t look at the numbers next time.


Here you go:
Vučević vs. Bamba comparison LINK


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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#58 » by drsd » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:44 pm

j-ragg wrote:We’re all homers in the end and most people have player favorites so I get it.


I want Bamba to be better than Vučević. But he is not there now. There is no metric to support Bamba starting over Vučević.

But to Homerism: Yes. We are all strong in this !!!!!


My Homerism: I can see a path to Orlando making the ECF this year. This is a young, deep team. There is Hope !
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#59 » by PrimeThyme » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:31 pm


Keep shifting those goalposts. You conveniently compared Vuc's career numbers to Bambas numbers but that wasn't the argument. My post compared both of their metrics this year and Bambas defensive metrics (outside of win shares) were better. Go back to my link and actually look instead of blindly denying.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#60 » by Bensational » Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:29 am

drsd wrote:
j-ragg wrote:By all metrics? Just admit you don’t look at the numbers next time.


Others just listed the metrics illustrating quantitatively that Vučević is not only a better defender today, he was a better defender than Bamba age matched.


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No he wasn't.

Age matched: Bamba is better across the board.

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