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Vuc...anchor or albatross?

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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#61 » by basketballRob » Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:46 am

Vucevic had one of the worst defensive seasons i can recall a player having last year. He couldn't stop anything going to the basket or on the perimeter.

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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#62 » by Bensational » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:21 am

basketballRob wrote:Vucevic had one of the worst defensive seasons i can recall a player having last year. He couldn't stop anything going to the basket or on the perimeter.

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What? That's absurd. Vuc has been good defensively the past two seasons. He has his shortcomings which the system tries to help minimise, but he has played solid defense since Cliff got here.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#63 » by drsd » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:45 am

PrimeThyme wrote:Keep shifting those goalposts. You conveniently compared Vuc's career numbers to Bambas numbers but that wasn't the argument. My post compared both of their metrics this year and Bambas defensive metrics (outside of win shares) were better. Go back to my link and actually look instead of blindly denying.


Respectively another post above compared Vučević and Bamba at the same age-ranges. I simply did not want to be redundant to that post.

Look: Bamba does have Isacc's motor. If he can learn two things: i) to control his balance and ii) play team defense; Bamba has a physical skill set to be this generation's Dikembe Mutombo. Add to that; Bamba has a capacity to be a 40% three-ball shooter. (He will never be an elite offensive rebounder because he will be camped outside the arc, but the Magic does not need that from the 5-slot as constructed).

In conclusion:
Bamba does need to be a lot better on boxing out in defensive rebounds. Vučević is ELITE in this skill set (and thus why he gets great rebounding numbers). Bamba needs core strength and technical training to get there.



Will he get there: I would be a yes-vote. But: for today and for next year, Vučević must start over Bamba. And thus Vučević is kind of untradable this off-season.




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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#64 » by j-ragg » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:38 pm

I just don’t see how anyone can say Vuc by every metric is better than Bamba on both ends. It’s outlandish. Bamba’s block rate is elite, much better than Vuc. His TS% is higher already (while ts isn’t the end all be all). He’s a (much) better 3 point shooter already. That doesn’t mean Bamba is ready to supplant him but cmon you can give him an ounce of credit while still propping up your guy.

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#65 » by zaymon » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:28 pm

j-ragg wrote:I just don’t see how anyone can say Vuc by every metric is better than Bamba on both ends. It’s outlandish. Bamba’s block rate is elite, much better than Vuc. His TS% is higher already (while ts isn’t the end all be all). He’s a (much) better 3 point shooter already. That doesn’t mean Bamba is ready to supplant him but cmon you can give him an ounce of credit while still propping up your guy.

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

Defense is more than blocking shots. Vuvevic is better at positioning, at making rotations, at boxing out, defensive rebounding, even defending perimeter if needed. Bamba has all the tools to be better on defense than Vucevic, and we have seen it in flashes, but overall Vucevic is a better defender for now. I think Mo is closing in, but still have some way to go.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#66 » by j-ragg » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:23 pm

zaymon wrote:
j-ragg wrote:I just don’t see how anyone can say Vuc by every metric is better than Bamba on both ends. It’s outlandish. Bamba’s block rate is elite, much better than Vuc. His TS% is higher already (while ts isn’t the end all be all). He’s a (much) better 3 point shooter already. That doesn’t mean Bamba is ready to supplant him but cmon you can give him an ounce of credit while still propping up your guy.

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

Defense is more than blocking shots. Vuvevic is better at positioning, at making rotations, at boxing out, defensive rebounding, even defending perimeter if needed. Bamba has all the tools to be better on defense than Vucevic, and we have seen it in flashes, but overall Vucevic is a better defender for now. I think Mo is closing in, but still have some way to go.

So would you say every metric out there favors Vucevic over Bamba on both ends? Because that's the point I was speaking to.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#67 » by Skybox » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:29 pm

No question in my mind that Vuc is better today...question is what's next and what would happen to our schemes if we were to make the swap and/or get some value back from a contender for Vuc BEFORE he slides to the point that Bamba IS just better than him.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#68 » by basketballRob » Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:04 pm

zaymon wrote:
j-ragg wrote:I just don’t see how anyone can say Vuc by every metric is better than Bamba on both ends. It’s outlandish. Bamba’s block rate is elite, much better than Vuc. His TS% is higher already (while ts isn’t the end all be all). He’s a (much) better 3 point shooter already. That doesn’t mean Bamba is ready to supplant him but cmon you can give him an ounce of credit while still propping up your guy.

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

Defense is more than blocking shots. Vuvevic is better at positioning, at making rotations, at boxing out, defensive rebounding, even defending perimeter if needed. Bamba has all the tools to be better on defense than Vucevic, and we have seen it in flashes, but overall Vucevic is a better defender for now. I think Mo is closing in, but still have some way to go.
Vuc never leaves the paint is why he's in position to get defensive rebounds. I wouldn't want Bamba to learn that. That's mostly just padding your stats.

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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#69 » by Xatticus » Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:44 am

zaymon wrote:
j-ragg wrote:I just don’t see how anyone can say Vuc by every metric is better than Bamba on both ends. It’s outlandish. Bamba’s block rate is elite, much better than Vuc. His TS% is higher already (while ts isn’t the end all be all). He’s a (much) better 3 point shooter already. That doesn’t mean Bamba is ready to supplant him but cmon you can give him an ounce of credit while still propping up your guy.

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

Defense is more than blocking shots. Vuvevic is better at positioning, at making rotations, at boxing out, defensive rebounding, even defending perimeter if needed. Bamba has all the tools to be better on defense than Vucevic, and we have seen it in flashes, but overall Vucevic is a better defender for now. I think Mo is closing in, but still have some way to go.


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https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612753&VsPlayerID=1628964
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#70 » by zaymon » Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:55 am

Xatticus wrote:
zaymon wrote:
j-ragg wrote:I just don’t see how anyone can say Vuc by every metric is better than Bamba on both ends. It’s outlandish. Bamba’s block rate is elite, much better than Vuc. His TS% is higher already (while ts isn’t the end all be all). He’s a (much) better 3 point shooter already. That doesn’t mean Bamba is ready to supplant him but cmon you can give him an ounce of credit while still propping up your guy.

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

Defense is more than blocking shots. Vuvevic is better at positioning, at making rotations, at boxing out, defensive rebounding, even defending perimeter if needed. Bamba has all the tools to be better on defense than Vucevic, and we have seen it in flashes, but overall Vucevic is a better defender for now. I think Mo is closing in, but still have some way to go.


https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612753&VsPlayerID=202696

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612753&VsPlayerID=1628964

Bamba is playing agaisnt reserves, fouling like crazy and allowing twice as many shots at the rim. How many times Clifford took him out of the court becouse he had no chance to defend anyone ? I asure you that if Vucevic played against reserves and was benched every time matchup was unfavourable stats would look much different.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#71 » by basketballRob » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:06 pm

zaymon wrote:
Xatticus wrote:
zaymon wrote:Defense is more than blocking shots. Vuvevic is better at positioning, at making rotations, at boxing out, defensive rebounding, even defending perimeter if needed. Bamba has all the tools to be better on defense than Vucevic, and we have seen it in flashes, but overall Vucevic is a better defender for now. I think Mo is closing in, but still have some way to go.


https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612753&VsPlayerID=202696

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612753&VsPlayerID=1628964

Bamba is playing agaisnt reserves, fouling like crazy and allowing twice as many shots at the rim. How many times Clifford took him out of the court becouse he had no chance to defend anyone ? I asure you that if Vucevic played against reserves and was benched every time matchup was unfavourable stats would look much different.
I remember Redick could never stay on the floor when coached by these guys either.

Vuc does not stop anything at the rim or very rarely. He could stand directly under the basket for the whole possession and still give up at layup.

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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#72 » by Skybox » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:40 pm

I think talking about Vuc as if he sucks is a ship that has sailed. Knucklehead armchair quarterbacks aren't the ones who voted him an All-Star. He's far from perfect or All-Defense but let's try to be realistic...this isn't a political debate.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#73 » by BadMofoPimp » Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:07 am

j-ragg wrote:I just don’t see how anyone can say Vuc by every metric is better than Bamba on both ends. It’s outlandish. Bamba’s block rate is elite, much better than Vuc. His TS% is higher already (while ts isn’t the end all be all). He’s a (much) better 3 point shooter already. That doesn’t mean Bamba is ready to supplant him but cmon you can give him an ounce of credit while still propping up your guy.

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.


The only contrast is Bamba's foul rate matches his block rate.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#74 » by Skin » Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:51 am

Vuc's zero trade value says it all.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#75 » by CPBalla2003 n da 863 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:05 am

Did anyone read the article on Athletic co-featuring Josh Robbins/John Hollinger? breaks things down pretty well... majority of you will hate how Hollinger ends the article as well.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#76 » by Bensational » Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:31 am

CPBalla2003 n da 863 wrote:Did anyone read the article on Athletic co-featuring Josh Robbins/John Hollinger? breaks things down pretty well... majority of you will hate how Hollinger ends the article as well.


There wasn't much to like or hate about the article. They basically said that with Vuc and Fournier we're a middling team with no real hope, and with Fultz, Isaac and Bamba none give him reason to be strongly optimistic about the future. That's a pretty on point take, though I'm more bullish on Fultz's potential than either of them.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#77 » by pepe1991 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:50 am

Skin wrote:Vuc's zero trade value says it all.


Another great insiders info :lol:
We don't even think about trading him, so how would you know his value?
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#78 » by pepe1991 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:57 am

Noel and Toronto's version of Biyombo are best example why defensive metrics for backup Cs don't mean anything.
Noel as starter was crap, got runned over and could not keep physicality nor production. Off bench he looks like all nba defense guy.
Mid 2016 there was general debate and common sense that Biyombo is better and more valuable player than Valanciunas.
4 years later it's as laughable as it gets when it comes to their actual comparison as players.

They play strictly against backups most of the time, so they are "saved" from being runned over by uber elite offensive players like Curry, Harden, Lebron, Giannis.... And most great teams are actually front louded- so even when you play against great teams, their benches tend to be ...average at best. 16 nba benches have negative net rating. There are only 6 nba teams that have benches that actually bring noticable value.

Vučević isn't player teams should build around, but he is still best option Magic have.
In itself, it's core of a problem ( team is middle of a road, 7-8th seed playoff team) but in same time he is one of main reasons why team is not Cavs level disaster.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#79 » by Knightro » Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:31 pm

Vucevic is the best player on the team, but you’re not going to be a very good team if he’s the best player.

Last year Vuc played the best basketball he’s capable of playing and the rest of the team was really healthy and the Magic only went 42-40.

This year Vuc is a good bit worse (although still a good player) and the team hasn’t been as healthy and they are once again under .500 and barely sneaking into the bottom of the playoffs.

And I certainly don't blame Vucevic. He didn't give himself the contract he just got, nor is he the coach designing the offense either.

But the Magic are in the one of the worst spots you can be in as a franchise. Stuck in the lower middle. They're a first round exit team that has no clear path to quickly improve because they're capped out and only earning middle of the first round draft picks.

If I had more faith in Weltman and Hammond to aggressively shake things up via trade, that's be one thing. But I don't. So my optimism is rather slight.
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Re: Vuc...anchor or albatross? 

Post#80 » by basketballRob » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:31 pm

I don't think Vuc moves the scale on winning. If you replced Vuc with 25m of other contracts, we wouldn't lose anymore games. Vuc has a lot of losing habits.

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