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In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else?

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In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else? 

Post#1 » by SHAQ32 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:47 pm

LA was the beginning of the end of his dominant reign. :nonono:


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Re: In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else? 

Post#2 » by ORLMagicGirl15 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:50 pm

On the tail end of his career here he was injured. I think his injury was worst than he let on but it was obvious that he wasn't the same. He was doing well in Houston, but was sidelined because of injuries. He honestly should have stayed and been quiet throughout his free-agency.
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Re: In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else? 

Post#3 » by Xatticus » Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:21 am

From the moment that he started rankling for a trade, I wanted to move him to OKC for Ibaka and Harden. That seems silly in retrospect, but it was common knowledge at the time that OKC wasn't willing to pay to keep both of them and I thought they might be willing to work something around that idea to consolidate their talent. Howard was the dominant big man in the league at that time and Harden wasn't viewed as anything resembling what he is now, but I was very impressed by his ability to score. Would OKC have been willing to pay Howard instead? I don't know. Probably not. We were still trying to reconcile things with Howard though, and by the time we finally decided to move him, he was undercutting our efforts by trying to force his way to Brooklyn or LAL.

Given the way the last eight years have transpired, the answer is rather obvious. There is still the occasional post around here that points out how we won that trade, but it was a pyrrhic victory at best. We've won 35.8% of our games since we made that trade (that's 29-53 over an 82-game schedule) and we are currently on our fifth head coach. I'd take any unknown hypothetical over what has actually transpired. We'd almost certainly have been better off by just telling him to stay away for that final season and letting his contract expire.
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Re: In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else? 

Post#4 » by darthmerrick » Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:43 am

We should have taken the warriors offer Steph, Klay, David Lee for Dwight.As they wanted to pair him with Monta Ellis before eventually sending monta to bucks for Bogut.
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Re: In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else? 

Post#5 » by MagicFan101 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:07 am

darthmerrick wrote:We should have taken the warriors offer Steph, Klay, David Lee for Dwight.As they wanted to pair him with Monta Ellis before eventually sending monta to bucks for Bogut.


Show me an article saying Golden State was offering both Steph and Klay. I do not believe that.
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Re: In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else? 

Post#6 » by Bensational » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:43 am

I would rather watch anything else than the past 7+ years again. And I'd want the team to go all in on landing a marquee player before trying to fight back in to playoff contention.
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Re: In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else? 

Post#7 » by Dubious Kitty » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:12 am

Yes we should have fleeced Brooklyn the way Boston fleeced them.
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Re: In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else? 

Post#8 » by drsd » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:24 am

In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else?


Let's start from the wide-spread media view that Orlando Won the Howard trade and that Vučević is unquestionably a better player today than any other player in that trade.

Magic Acquire Six Players, Five Draft Picks in Howard Trade


WOW; reflectively for a player that was gonna leave anyhow.


.....


So really the question is could the Magic have gotten even more? No. All three teams that were in this trade were all in desperation mode. Differing desperations. But desperate nevertheless.

Golden State would never had part of a trading partner that would have augmented Orlando's haul for Howard (and Chris Duhon and Earl Clark).



p.s. I liked Earl Clark at the time and was sad to see him leave. BUT: looking at the outcome of his career, yes he ended up as a throw-in player.
Chris Duhon : well he did create a MEME moment none of old-schoolers will ever forget.




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Re: In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else? 

Post#9 » by Def Swami » Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:50 pm

Howard gave us a list of 3 teams to trade him to in this particular order:
1. Brooklyn Nets
2. LA Lakers
3. Dallas Mavericks

The offers at this time were not all that inspiring. This was Brooklyn's final offer.
That inspired renewed talks, in which the Nets offered four future first-round picks, Lopez and power forward Kris Humphries in sign-and-trade deals and $3 million to acquire Howard, Jason Richardson, Chris Duhon and Earl Clark, the source said.

That offer was rejected by the Magic, who did not want Humphries and also wanted to unload Quentin Richardson. Brooklyn's sign-and-trade proposal would have involved Humphries signing a heavily front-loaded multiyear contract, with only the first-year salary fully guaranteed.

Without a third team to take Humphries, the Nets had no choice but to reject the Magic's counteroffer and extend Lopez, who cannot be traded until Jan. 15 because of the new collective bargaining agreement's rules.

https://www.espn.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/8156575/2012-nba-free-agency-brooklyn-nets-end-pursuit-dwight-howard-sources-says
This is a really interesting "what if?" Four future first-round picks are hard to come by, but you imagine they'd likely be low first-round picks given the Nets would have had Deron Williams and Dwight Howard for at least the next 3 years. Even with those draft picks, I'm not sold the front office would have done anything productive with them. Brook Lopez was similar to Vucevic in that timespan, but with a larger contract and less rebounding (ironically, Lopez is now the more modern 3&D center 8 years later).

IIRC, there was talk of a straight up swap of Dwight Howard for Andrew Bynum and some concoction of draft picks. This one would have been disastrous given that Bynum was out of the league shortly after this trade. I don't remember the picks being that great, and the Lakers picks included in the actual trade bear that out (conditional 2nd round pick in 2015, conditional 1st round pick in 2017).

I believe the actual trade wasn't bad, but neither great. We never had anything substantial to hang our hats on from that trade. But there were a lot of assets for the new front office to do things with. The problem was there was no center piece in the deal to get excited about, the assets were severely mismanaged, and the team didn't do anything with the draft picks.

Vucevic has overall been an okay acquisition from that trade. He's not perfect, but at the time, him being young, on a rookie contract, and developing into a decent starting center was better than overpaying Brook Lopez at the time, who again, was a very different player in 2012. Aaron Afflalo was actually pretty good in his 2nd and final year with us (also a contract year IIRC) and flipping him for Evan Fournier, who was giving us similar production at younger age and cheaper contract was a good deal. But, somehow, after 6 years of mediocrity, the crux of our team is built upon 2 really average guys who were derived from the D12 trade of 2012. You'd think the team would have done something with these assets in that timespan, and maybe that would alter how we judge the trade in retrospect. But we've just been sitting on these 2 assets from that trade, and they don't really contribute to winning, except for Vucevic's last 1.5 seasons, and they collectively take up $42 million/year on the payroll.

The front office was really talking up Moe Harkless when the deal happened, but the kid was as raw as they come. He was kind of the OG "he can't shoot but LENGTH" that this team has endorsed for the decade. Again, he was an asset in 2012, but was completely mismanaged and traded away for essentially nothing. He went on to contribute and start on playoff teams with the Blazers and is now a contributor on the Clippers. You can't just get nothing for players like that. The good GM's of the league know how to work the edges and take advantage of every asset.
The Orlando Magic traded Maurice Harkless to the Portland Trail Blazers on Tuesday and got, in a practical sense, nothing in return for him.

As the Blazers noted in their press release announcing the trade, the 2020 second-round pick they sent to Orlando is heavily protected, specifically "from picks 31 through 55."

https://www.orlandopinstripedpost.com/2015/7/16/8955489/orlando-magic-nba-trade-maurice-harkless-portland-trail-blazers

Al Harrington, Josh McRoberts, and Christian Eyenga were all dead weight.

My biggest gripe from the actual 4-team trade was how we came away hosed on draft protections and how low the picks ended up being.
Here were the picks:
- second round pick from Denver in 2013 ==> Romero Osby (51st pick)

- a first round pick from either Denver or New York in 2014 ==> Dario Saric (12th pick) traded with the conditional first round pick from Philadelphia back to Philadelphia for Elfrid Payton (10th pick)

- conditional first round pick from Philadelphia ==> traded with Dario Saric and rights to Willy Hermangomez (35th) to get Elfrid Payton ==> Included as pick swap with Kings in 2015 trade ==> Kings win 2017 lottery and #1 pick but Sixers use pick swap ==> Kings draft De'Aaron Fox (5th)

- conditional second round pick from the L.A. Lakers in 2015 ==> Never conveyed

- conditional first round pick from the L.A. Lakers in 2017 ==> Became two second-round picks: Wes Iwundu (33rd in 2017) and Rodions Kurucs (40th in 2018)(the rights to the pick was traded earlier to the Raptors to acquire the rights to release Jeff Weltman from his contract LOL).

In theory, the conditional first round picks from Denver/NYK in 2014 and Philadelphia in 2017 were good opportunities to add real talent either in the draft or as trade assets. Blowing both of those picks on 4 wasted seasons of Elfrid Payton was a huge blow to the whole deal. Simply just keeping Dario Saric and the Philly 2017 pick would have left us in better shape, especially if we come away from the 2017 draft with potentially both De'Aaron Fox and Jonathan Isaac. Or in an even better case scenario, if Hennigan simply takes Zach Lavine at #12 (Lavine goes #13 in the actual draft), instead of panicking and blowing two trade assets on a point guard who can't shoot. Especially after drafting a PF who couldn't shoot in the same draft.

The Lakers get the best player in the entire trade and never conveyed a first round pick. It's astonishing to me that we couldn't pry off the protections of that 2017 pick. Hell, they couldn't pry off the protections of the 2015 second round pick smh. The Lakers essentially gave up four first-round picks for Anthony Davis last summer (also in expiring contract year).
the Pelicans' total haul of draft picks includes: this year's No. 4 overall selection, a top-eight protected pick in 2021 (which becomes unprotected in 2022 if it does not convey), the right to swap first-round picks with the Lakers in 2023, and an unprotected 2024 first-round pick that New Orleans can defer to 2025

Even if the protections involved the Lakers pick being conveyed to a first-round pick down the road instead of two useless second-round picks, that would have infinitely improved the value of the pick and improve our odds of adding talent that could actually move the needle. Iwundu is a nice player, but could also very well be out of the league in a year. Kurucs could have been useful as a shooter, but I guess we he's the tribute to hire Weltman to come in and fix everything the last guy did.

I think there was an opportunity to do something with the trove of assets we got in the trade. But, the front office just botched it. The actual picks obtained could have been better IMO. In comparison to what the Nets were offering, maybe the four first-round picks would have yielded something more fruitful. Maybe those picks could have been flipped for another player that would have been more helpful. Or used to move up in a draft.

I don't think any of the teams in the trade actually won. Every team involved was worse off. The Lakers lost Howard a year later. The Nuggets lost Iguodala a year later. The Sixers lose Bynum forever. And we just stay stuck in the mud for the remainder of the 2010's.
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Re: In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else? 

Post#10 » by EAS Law » Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:21 pm

I wish we could have maintained our relationship with SVG. I think that would have helped us a lot.
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Re: In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else? 

Post#11 » by Def Swami » Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:14 pm

EAS Law wrote:I wish we could have maintained our relationship with SVG. I think that would have helped us a lot.

OH and this THIS too. It's so hard to find good coaches in the NBA. SVG was and is a good coach. He held every player to a standard that we've been fighting for ever since he left. We had a pretty good culture among our team sans Dwight Howard. He understood what it took to win in the regular season and playoffs. We developed young players. He endorsed a modern offense that prioritized 3 point shooting. He coaxed Rashard Lewis into sacrificing his own glory into playing the 4 for the betterment of the team. We wasted the next 6 years between Jacque Vaughn, Scott Skiles, and Frank Vogel. All just to end up with SVG's assistant coach, Steve Clifford. Firing SVG was dumb. IIRC, they didn't even fire Otis Smith. He simply resigned once they fired SVG out of loyalty to SVG. The front office and Alex Martins had no idea what they were doing.
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Re: In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else? 

Post#12 » by darthmerrick » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:09 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:
darthmerrick wrote:We should have taken the warriors offer Steph, Klay, David Lee for Dwight.As they wanted to pair him with Monta Ellis before eventually sending monta to bucks for Bogut.


Show me an article saying Golden State was offering both Steph and Klay. I do not believe that.


You are correct the ony article I found was for Klay. But imagine we could have gotten Steph too, if they wanted to pair Monta with Dwight. Maybe throw in JJ at the time and they would have been all over it. In hindsight Klay was a rookie and Steph was still a project...would the splash brothers have become the splash brothers under Van Gundy? He would have likely stunted their growth and made them earn minutes and hooked them for taking a contested three whether they made it or not.
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Re: In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else? 

Post#13 » by MagicFan101 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:41 pm

darthmerrick wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
darthmerrick wrote:We should have taken the warriors offer Steph, Klay, David Lee for Dwight.As they wanted to pair him with Monta Ellis before eventually sending monta to bucks for Bogut.


Show me an article saying Golden State was offering both Steph and Klay. I do not believe that.


You are correct the ony article I found was for Klay. But imagine we could have gotten Steph too, if they wanted to pair Monta with Dwight. Maybe throw in JJ at the time and they would have been all over it. In hindsight Klay was a rookie and Steph was still a project...would the splash brothers have become the splash brothers under Van Gundy? He would have likely stunted their growth and made them earn minutes and hooked them for taking a contested three whether they made it or not.


I have seen rumors of Steph being offered as he was not the yet the Steph we know today and still had injury concerns at that time.


But Klay + Steph is not a combo offer I remember.

Still, Golden State was not on Dwight’s list so they were unlikely to pull the trigger on a deal without a guarantee he would resign.
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Re: In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else? 

Post#14 » by j-ragg » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:00 pm

Yup. Dwight’s little “list” of 3 teams was the main reason I had a negative opinion of him after he left.

Telling the media in front of cameras he wants to be here then behind cameras saying he doesn’t, then on top of that diminishing any leverage the Magic had with 26 other teams.

It didn’t really work out well for either party. Magic went into the worst era in team history by far, and Dwight’s reputation started breaking down worse than his body.
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Re: In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else? 

Post#15 » by j-ragg » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:02 pm

I’m more intrigued by the other packages we didn’t trade TMac for. I remember a package rumored from Phoenix that included Marion, Joe Johnson, and the 7th pick in the draft (ended up being Luol Deng iirc).
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Re: In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else? 

Post#16 » by Flannerz » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:49 pm

Just imagine if Dwight hadn't opted in to the final year of his deal. What would have happened then?
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Re: In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else? 

Post#17 » by cedric76 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:21 pm

SHAQ32 wrote:LA was the beginning of the end of his dominant reign. :nonono:


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Well deserved. Screw him
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Re: In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else? 

Post#18 » by drsd » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:32 pm

Flannerz wrote:Just imagine if Dwight hadn't opted in to the final year of his deal. What would have happened then?


And what-if Shaq stayed and Penny didn't get hurt.


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Re: In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else? 

Post#19 » by Max Power » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:17 pm

These what if’s are always interesting discussions. I always wonder what would have happened had Tracy Mcgrady stuck around and we’d drafted Dwightand Jameer and snagged Hedo in free agency. A core team of Dwight, Tmac, an eventually healthy Grant Hill with Hedo and Jameer certainly would have been formidable with Marcin Gortat spelling Howard up front. I still think Marcin Gortats development and acquisition was one of the things that really made the Magic’s late 2000’s team so good. Depth.

I’m regards to Howard’s trade, I remember Golden States rumors back then but Curry was viewed as injury prone and Lee was good but looking like his prime had passed. I’m actually of the opinion that the trade we got for Dwight wasn’t as good as it could have been, we could have gotten some better picks. But to look at all 3 teams haul, the Magic got a solid two guard and a throw in center that turned into an All Star. Not bad if you ask me. Nobody expected Vuc to blossom the way he did. The Magic’s lack of quick progress was mostly due to bad coaching and management and Hennigan clashing on vision. There’s been a LOT of talent here since Dwight left, just not a transcendent one to lead this team to contender ship. If the 2015 Skiles team had blossomed correctly they could have been a top 5 team in the East.
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Re: In retrospect, do you wish we traded Dwight Howard somewhere else? 

Post#20 » by Bensational » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:38 am

Def Swami wrote:
EAS Law wrote:I wish we could have maintained our relationship with SVG. I think that would have helped us a lot.

OH and this THIS too. It's so hard to find good coaches in the NBA. SVG was and is a good coach. He held every player to a standard that we've been fighting for ever since he left. We had a pretty good culture among our team sans Dwight Howard. He understood what it took to win in the regular season and playoffs. We developed young players. He endorsed a modern offense that prioritized 3 point shooting. He coaxed Rashard Lewis into sacrificing his own glory into playing the 4 for the betterment of the team. We wasted the next 6 years between Jacque Vaughn, Scott Skiles, and Frank Vogel. All just to end up with SVG's assistant coach, Steve Clifford. Firing SVG was dumb. IIRC, they didn't even fire Otis Smith. He simply resigned once they fired SVG out of loyalty to SVG. The front office and Alex Martins had no idea what they were doing.


I was all about keeping Dwight back then. But in hindsight I wish Otis had pulled the trigger on that proposed deal for Lopez + picks, and we kept SVG.

We likely would've still been on a slow decline to irrelevance, with some terrible contracts on the books.

Lopez
Anderson/BBD
Hedo/QRich
JJ
Jameer/Duhon

That's all I can remember from who was left over. Our defense would've taken a huge nose dive with that squad, but our offense might have made a little jump?

Problem is, Otis seemed out of ideas, and he hasn't done anything since then.

But, those BKN picks could've been great value if the Nets trended downwards. Dwight was slowing due to injuries, Deron had seemed to give up caring about basketball already. Dwight might've bailed on them like he did LA. So maybe we might have got lucky and been able to retool on the fly? Maybe we end up in position to draft Giannis instead of Oladipo?

I love the mental exercise of retrospective basketball management.

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