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I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan)

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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#41 » by NotACat » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:20 pm

Xatticus wrote:
Knightro wrote:The unexpected success of the 2018-2019 Magic completely changed the path of the organization and unfortunately it doesn't appear that's going to be in a good way in the long run.

But it's wasn't necessarily a black and white decision.

I can't imagine trying to tell Steve Clifford, his coaching staff and all the players who played so hard last year "hey guys, we know you increased your win total by 17 games, but we've decided to play the tanking game again without giving you the opportunity to build off what you accomplished."

Now obviously with benefit of hindsight (which is always 20/20), the Magic wouldn't have locked themselves into a team with such a low ceiling. But in the moment, that would have been a difficult sell.


This is what Gabriel did with the heart-and-hustle squad. He hired Rivers the year before and proceeded to strip the roster down in an effort to clear cap space and tank. We didn't get the high lottery pick because the team far exceeded expectations, but Gabriel didn't abandon his plans due to the unexpected success.

The lottery has always been an artificial floor. No matter how much you screw up, as long as you don't trade away your own picks, there is a built-in mechanism that prevents you from slipping into despair. There is no relegation and you get higher draft choices if everything goes pear-shaped. This should be liberating for GMs that are secure enough in their position to survive a dark period. It should afford them some measure of confidence to commit to the unknown. When Gabriel's plan imploded, for various reasons, we ended up back at the top of the lottery and the ashes of the McGrady era became the foundation of the team that ultimately reached the finals.

Look at Atlanta. Schlenk tore it all down and gave his coach a roster where he was forced to play the prospects. Some have thrived while others haven't, but at least they have learned a lot about what they have. They've continued to collect high-value assets along the way. They have their offensive engine and it will be so easy for them to augment their core and charge up the standings in the coming years. How far will they go? Who knows right now, but at least they have reason for optimism.

We've taken a completely different path. We've been reactionary. There might be some general principles involved, but there is no plan. They had years of data and film to pore over, but they let a late-season surge last year alter everything and proceeded to double down on what we know doesn't work. They hired a coach that tries to grind out wins by sucking the variance out of the game and they have placated him by stacking the roster with low-ceiling, try-hard journeymen that he doesn't have to teach. Now we are the Charlotte Magic.

It's just so difficult to be optimistic about this roster.

You missed the part where they got lucky in a historically great draft and ended up with Trae Young.

Orlando did try that strategy several years ago and ended up with a top pick in a fairly weak draft. Oladipo has had one outlier good year, but is no where near the kind of building block Trae is
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#42 » by thelead » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:36 pm

bigdogdylan5 wrote:
thelead wrote:
bigdogdylan5 wrote:You have to be careful Morphing this team. Forcing a trade is how we trade for and sign ibaka and Biz respectively

Meh. Then you suck enough to draft someone like Isaac. Worth the risk as long as we’re not trading young players.

Oladipo was young. If you want to trade Vuc or Fournier(if he opts in) I couldn’t be more on board for reasonable value but when we start talking AG I am super nervous about that.

I wouldn't trade AG unless we're getting a better fitting young piece of equal value back (like Kelly Oubre Jr). AG is perfect for the modern NBA and can fit in nearly anywhere.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#43 » by Knightro » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:38 pm

Xatticus wrote:This is what Gabriel did with the heart-and-hustle squad. He hired Rivers the year before and proceeded to strip the roster down in an effort to clear cap space and tank. We didn't get the high lottery pick because the team far exceeded expectations, but Gabriel didn't abandon his plans due to the unexpected success.

We've taken a completely different path. We've been reactionary. There might be some general principles involved, but there is no plan. They had years of data and film to pore over, but they let a late-season surge last year alter everything and proceeded to double down on what we know doesn't work. They hired a coach that tries to grind out wins by sucking the variance out of the game and they have placated him by stacking the roster with low-ceiling, try-hard journeymen that he doesn't have to teach. Now we are the Charlotte Magic.

It's just so difficult to be optimistic about this roster.


Oh I mean I completely agree with you. There's no denying that this is a low ceiling roster that the front office and coaching staff seem totally comfortable chugging forward with.

I just understand why they opted to go that route even if it wasn't what they should have done in the long-run.

It's also why I don't expect sweeping changes this summer.

I think they'll make their pick at 16, use their MLE and try and grind out another 40-45 wins and a playoff appearance.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#44 » by thelead » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:44 pm

Knightro wrote:
Xatticus wrote:This is what Gabriel did with the heart-and-hustle squad. He hired Rivers the year before and proceeded to strip the roster down in an effort to clear cap space and tank. We didn't get the high lottery pick because the team far exceeded expectations, but Gabriel didn't abandon his plans due to the unexpected success.

We've taken a completely different path. We've been reactionary. There might be some general principles involved, but there is no plan. They had years of data and film to pore over, but they let a late-season surge last year alter everything and proceeded to double down on what we know doesn't work. They hired a coach that tries to grind out wins by sucking the variance out of the game and they have placated him by stacking the roster with low-ceiling, try-hard journeymen that he doesn't have to teach. Now we are the Charlotte Magic.

It's just so difficult to be optimistic about this roster.


Oh I mean I completely agree with you. There's no denying that this is a low ceiling roster that the front office and coaching staff seem totally comfortable chugging forward with.

I just understand why they opted to go that route even if it wasn't what they should have done in the long-run.

It's also why I don't expect sweeping changes this summer.

I think they'll make their pick at 16, use their MLE and try and grind out another 40-45 wins and a playoff appearance.


Evan will be back, Vuc will be back and I will not be surprised if DJ is back as well. Why did they fire Hennigan if his players are worth keeping around forever?
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#45 » by Xatticus » Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:03 pm

thelead wrote:
Knightro wrote:
Xatticus wrote:This is what Gabriel did with the heart-and-hustle squad. He hired Rivers the year before and proceeded to strip the roster down in an effort to clear cap space and tank. We didn't get the high lottery pick because the team far exceeded expectations, but Gabriel didn't abandon his plans due to the unexpected success.

We've taken a completely different path. We've been reactionary. There might be some general principles involved, but there is no plan. They had years of data and film to pore over, but they let a late-season surge last year alter everything and proceeded to double down on what we know doesn't work. They hired a coach that tries to grind out wins by sucking the variance out of the game and they have placated him by stacking the roster with low-ceiling, try-hard journeymen that he doesn't have to teach. Now we are the Charlotte Magic.

It's just so difficult to be optimistic about this roster.


Oh I mean I completely agree with you. There's no denying that this is a low ceiling roster that the front office and coaching staff seem totally comfortable chugging forward with.

I just understand why they opted to go that route even if it wasn't what they should have done in the long-run.

It's also why I don't expect sweeping changes this summer.

I think they'll make their pick at 16, use their MLE and try and grind out another 40-45 wins and a playoff appearance.


Evan will be back, Vuc will be back and I will not be surprised if DJ is back as well. Why did they fire Hennigan if his players are worth keeping around forever?


Because of the Skiles/Martins bromance. Hennigan certainly screwed some things up though.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#46 » by jezzerinho » Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:38 pm

The reason you're bored of the team is they don't do anything either exciting or successful, on or off the court.

That's a tough sell for anyone.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#47 » by basketballRob » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:36 pm

I think the team is really close to a 50 win team. Hopefully after the way we won those 3 games prior to the break, without Fournier, marinated with Weham.

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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#48 » by J the Drafter » Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:04 pm

Skin wrote:
J the Drafter wrote:I think the only sound way to improve a team is by degrees. If you add Isaac, then Bamba, then Fultz year after year after year, you’ve made the team better year after year after year—if not immediately, then in the future. The continued presence of Fournier and Vucevic has no bearing on this improvement; the young players will refine their games in team and individual practices, and will be awarded playing time based on the needs of the team.

Now, obviously, trades can also make a team better, provided good trades are available. Gambling on a trade can put you in a worse position, especially if the trade is made in desperation.

Well it's not the only way, but it's definitely the way we're trying it. Why not trade Vuc, Fournier for draft picks or players you missed out on in the draft that you liked (at positions we need help at)? I'm not trying to suggest trades for more PFs and Cs... but bring us some wings. Keeping them just so you can maintain mediocrity and stifle playing time for your young guys is frustrating.


Vuc and Evan haven’t been traded because management hasn’t seen good trades for them. If you do make those trades, they need to be made for the sake of getting value, not for the sake of getting rid of Vuc and Evan. As much as it would satisfy some fans, losing either player won’t progress our rebuild, it’ll just mean we no longer have one or both of our primary scorers.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#49 » by Skin » Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:11 am

J the Drafter wrote:
Skin wrote:
J the Drafter wrote:I think the only sound way to improve a team is by degrees. If you add Isaac, then Bamba, then Fultz year after year after year, you’ve made the team better year after year after year—if not immediately, then in the future. The continued presence of Fournier and Vucevic has no bearing on this improvement; the young players will refine their games in team and individual practices, and will be awarded playing time based on the needs of the team.

Now, obviously, trades can also make a team better, provided good trades are available. Gambling on a trade can put you in a worse position, especially if the trade is made in desperation.

Well it's not the only way, but it's definitely the way we're trying it. Why not trade Vuc, Fournier for draft picks or players you missed out on in the draft that you liked (at positions we need help at)? I'm not trying to suggest trades for more PFs and Cs... but bring us some wings. Keeping them just so you can maintain mediocrity and stifle playing time for your young guys is frustrating.


Vuc and Evan haven’t been traded because management hasn’t seen good trades for them. If you do make those trades, they need to be made for the sake of getting value, not for the sake of getting rid of Vuc and Evan. As much as it would satisfy some fans, losing either player won’t progress our rebuild, it’ll just mean we no longer have one or both of our primary scorers.

No good trades for them, but for some reason they are good enough for us to resign? What gives?

Reason they are here is because our FO doesn't want to field a losing team. They'd rather max out at mediocrity.

Losing and high draft picks is at least a direction towards long term progress... even if the attempt is drafting busts, at least the direction inspires hope.

Mediocrity and low draft picks combined with being capped out with your big money players who have no trade value is a complete dead end unless you get supremely lucky at your draft spot.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#50 » by J the Drafter » Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:57 am

Skin wrote:
J the Drafter wrote:
Skin wrote:Well it's not the only way, but it's definitely the way we're trying it. Why not trade Vuc, Fournier for draft picks or players you missed out on in the draft that you liked (at positions we need help at)? I'm not trying to suggest trades for more PFs and Cs... but bring us some wings. Keeping them just so you can maintain mediocrity and stifle playing time for your young guys is frustrating.


Vuc and Evan haven’t been traded because management hasn’t seen good trades for them. If you do make those trades, they need to be made for the sake of getting value, not for the sake of getting rid of Vuc and Evan. As much as it would satisfy some fans, losing either player won’t progress our rebuild, it’ll just mean we no longer have one or both of our primary scorers.

No good trades for them, but for some reason they are good enough for us to resign? What gives?

Reason they are here is because our FO doesn't want to field a losing team. They'd rather max out at mediocrity.

Losing and high draft picks is at least a direction towards long term progress... even if the attempt is drafting busts, at least the direction inspires hope.

Mediocrity and low draft picks combined with being capped out with your big money players who have no trade value is a complete dead end unless you get supremely lucky at your draft spot.

The Magic are depending on their youth, even with the presence of veterans. The team will improve on the backs of the young players and any further picks. Keeping Vuc and Evan around won’t stop that.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#51 » by Skin » Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:06 am

J the Drafter wrote:
Skin wrote:
J the Drafter wrote:
Vuc and Evan haven’t been traded because management hasn’t seen good trades for them. If you do make those trades, they need to be made for the sake of getting value, not for the sake of getting rid of Vuc and Evan. As much as it would satisfy some fans, losing either player won’t progress our rebuild, it’ll just mean we no longer have one or both of our primary scorers.

No good trades for them, but for some reason they are good enough for us to resign? What gives?

Reason they are here is because our FO doesn't want to field a losing team. They'd rather max out at mediocrity.

Losing and high draft picks is at least a direction towards long term progress... even if the attempt is drafting busts, at least the direction inspires hope.

Mediocrity and low draft picks combined with being capped out with your big money players who have no trade value is a complete dead end unless you get supremely lucky at your draft spot.

The Magic are depending on their youth, even with the presence of veterans. The team will improve on the backs of the young players and any further picks. Keeping Vuc and Evan around won’t stop that.

Vuc signed a brand new 4 year deal. Are you thinking that won't be a road block for Bamba to emerge or that Vuc won't be here for the whole term of his deal?

Evan is not stopping anyone atm because he already was the reason why we got rid of Oladipo. Yay. :banghead:
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#52 » by J the Drafter » Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:55 am

Skin wrote:Vuc signed a brand new 4 year deal. Are you thinking that won't be a road block for Bamba to emerge or that Vuc won't be here for the whole term of his deal?

I don’t think Vuc’s presence will stop Bamba from getting better. Bamba is going to improve through practices and film sessions, with games being a place to demonstrate improvements.

Evan is not stopping anyone atm because he already was the reason why we got rid of Oladipo. Yay. :banghead:

I’ve always thought we got rid of Victor because Rich wanted a power forward—maybe even Ibaka specifically—and Hennigan determined that Victor was the best way to get one. There was no indication the Magic had to pick and choose between Evan and Victor.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#53 » by Bensational » Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:07 am

Knightro wrote:The unexpected success of the 2018-2019 Magic completely changed the path of the organization and unfortunately it doesn't appear that's going to be in a good way in the long run.

But it's wasn't necessarily a black and white decision.

I can't imagine trying to tell Steve Clifford, his coaching staff and all the players who played so hard last year "hey guys, we know you increased your win total by 17 games, but we've decided to play the tanking game again without giving you the opportunity to build off what you accomplished."

Now obviously with benefit of hindsight (which is always 20/20), the Magic wouldn't have locked themselves into a team with such a low ceiling. But in the moment, that would have been a difficult sell.


I don't think hindsight being 20/20 applies here. Too many people already felt the team had hit it's ceiling behind Vuc, and were understandably wary of his contract year improvement.

Congrats to Clifford for milking the one cow we had in the yard, but it's already run dry. And it might've just been bull the whole time.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#54 » by pepe1991 » Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:38 am

DO you think part of losing interest is corona thing?
I lost interest in sports in general. I watch football ( soccer) games and games are flat out different without fans.
You can hear coaches yell like it's practice. Players don't really get at it at all. It feels like practice.
Silence is terrible, fake fan noice is even worst.

And as far as NBA goes, i simply can't shake off feeling that whole thing is not cancelled just because 2 LA based teams are actually best teams in NBA and i have soooo little interest in watching this clown show of regular season going on for another few games just to squeeze Zion into playoffs.

As for Magic, they resigned Vuc for 2 main reasons:
1) Bamba looking terrible ( skills, stamina, durability, nothing is there and won't be there any time soon).
2) Vuc being best player and probably only player that other teams actually have to watch footage before game to decide how to defend him
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#55 » by Rainwater » Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:47 am

zaymon wrote:
Rainwater wrote:
fateis007 wrote:Today, after not having basketball for 4 months. I realized how uninteresting this team is for me. I found myself reading my phone more then watching the game. Before you judge me, I am a die hard. I would watch 95% of the games of the year and goto many live games.

For some reason, watching the core of Gordan/Vucevic/Founier/Ross on both ends is just not very exciting and boring to me. It's almost like watching a product that has reached it potential (which isn't very good) so it's hard to stay interested, because the story is told.

The only thing that keeps me coming around is watching Fultz grow into a player and JI doing well. But a big part of me wishes they would just do a full rebuild and let these young guys make a name for themselves.

Am I the only one feeling this way? :crazy: This is not meant to be a bash thread, I am just wondering if anyone else has lost their excitement for product on the floor after 4-5 years of the same core.


I pretty much agree with the rebuild part. Should have tore it down awhile ago. Evan, AG, Ross, and Vuc are great role players but shouldn't be core guys you build around. With exception of Ross, they've all been together for 6 years now. Let the young guys play.

I am failing to grasp what suggests we are building around Vucevic, Evan, Ross and AG. Literally every Weltman move suggests we are building around Isaac, and since we traded for him, Fultz. To me resigning veterans was a vote of confidence for our young core. If we didnt resign Vucevic and Ross we lose assets for nothing, but more importantly we are propably wasting Isaacs and Fultz carrier in Orlando, becouse no one is going to come here after we treat our own veterans like that (and becouse we are a loser).
Lets speculate that we didnt resign Vucevic, or even traded him before. Lets be generous and give us the best odds in 2019 draft. So we end up with Barrett, Culver or Garland. This year we suck even more Fournier opts out, MCW never considers us, DJ bolts. Our big prize would be propably someone like Ball, Edwards, Wiseman, Hayes. When we start to win with Fultz/Barrett/Ball/Isaac/Bamba? I say never.


It is hard to believe they are building around the young guys when most of the play calls are ran for Vuc, Evan, Ross, and AG. Nothing indicates they moving away from those four in terms play calls or play style. How will the young guys progress if they aren't getting the ball?

I believe a free agent knows how a NBA life works. And that is just not in the NBA but sports in general. Teams go through rebuilds, when something runs it's course vets leave and young replace them. Just how it works. If a futurefree agent holds that against a team that would just be absurd.

And I would rather go into a rebuild unsure what will happen but hopeful something will materialize at some point in terms of a draft prospect or free agent. You are right some rebuilds may take forever but some others are relatively short. Regardless, either option is better since there might be hope with this current squad you know you are watching a borderline treadmill playoff team year in and year out.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#56 » by zaymon » Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:12 am

Rainwater wrote:
zaymon wrote:
Rainwater wrote:
I pretty much agree with the rebuild part. Should have tore it down awhile ago. Evan, AG, Ross, and Vuc are great role players but shouldn't be core guys you build around. With exception of Ross, they've all been together for 6 years now. Let the young guys play.

I am failing to grasp what suggests we are building around Vucevic, Evan, Ross and AG. Literally every Weltman move suggests we are building around Isaac, and since we traded for him, Fultz. To me resigning veterans was a vote of confidence for our young core. If we didnt resign Vucevic and Ross we lose assets for nothing, but more importantly we are propably wasting Isaacs and Fultz carrier in Orlando, becouse no one is going to come here after we treat our own veterans like that (and becouse we are a loser).
Lets speculate that we didnt resign Vucevic, or even traded him before. Lets be generous and give us the best odds in 2019 draft. So we end up with Barrett, Culver or Garland. This year we suck even more Fournier opts out, MCW never considers us, DJ bolts. Our big prize would be propably someone like Ball, Edwards, Wiseman, Hayes. When we start to win with Fultz/Barrett/Ball/Isaac/Bamba? I say never.


It is hard to believe they are building around the young guys when most of the play calls are ran for Vuc, Evan, Ross, and AG. Nothing indicates they moving away from those four in terms play calls or play style. How will the young guys progress if they aren't getting the ball?

I believe a free agent knows how a NBA life works. And that is just not in the NBA but sports in general. Teams go through rebuilds, when something runs it's course vets leave and young replace them. Just how it works. If a futurefree agent holds that against a team that would just be absurd.

And I would rather go into a rebuild unsure what will happen but hopeful something will materialize at some point in terms of a draft prospect or free agent. You are right some rebuilds may take forever but some others are relatively short. Regardless, either option is better since there might be hope with this current squad you know you are watching a borderline treadmill playoff team year in and year out.

Everything indicates we want to play through Fultz in the future. If we wanted to compete with Vucevic we would have signed a starting pg like Rubio to play with him and instead we opted to start with 21 y.o still not healthy Markelle. If that is not a prove i dont know what is. He is not ready yet to shoulder heavier load, almost every game he took over he came down with cramps.
Isaac's usage is going up every year, if we trade Gordon there will be even more plays run for him.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#57 » by Skin » Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:46 am

The Magic have the 5th highest salary in the league. How ridiculous is that?
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#58 » by Rainwater » Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:35 am

zaymon wrote:
Rainwater wrote:
zaymon wrote:I am failing to grasp what suggests we are building around Vucevic, Evan, Ross and AG. Literally every Weltman move suggests we are building around Isaac, and since we traded for him, Fultz. To me resigning veterans was a vote of confidence for our young core. If we didnt resign Vucevic and Ross we lose assets for nothing, but more importantly we are propably wasting Isaacs and Fultz carrier in Orlando, becouse no one is going to come here after we treat our own veterans like that (and becouse we are a loser).
Lets speculate that we didnt resign Vucevic, or even traded him before. Lets be generous and give us the best odds in 2019 draft. So we end up with Barrett, Culver or Garland. This year we suck even more Fournier opts out, MCW never considers us, DJ bolts. Our big prize would be propably someone like Ball, Edwards, Wiseman, Hayes. When we start to win with Fultz/Barrett/Ball/Isaac/Bamba? I say never.


It is hard to believe they are building around the young guys when most of the play calls are ran for Vuc, Evan, Ross, and AG. Nothing indicates they moving away from those four in terms play calls or play style. How will the young guys progress if they aren't getting the ball?

I believe a free agent knows how a NBA life works. And that is just not in the NBA but sports in general. Teams go through rebuilds, when something runs it's course vets leave and young replace them. Just how it works. If a futurefree agent holds that against a team that would just be absurd.

And I would rather go into a rebuild unsure what will happen but hopeful something will materialize at some point in terms of a draft prospect or free agent. You are right some rebuilds may take forever but some others are relatively short. Regardless, either option is better since there might be hope with this current squad you know you are watching a borderline treadmill playoff team year in and year out.

Everything indicates we want to play through Fultz in the future. If we wanted to compete with Vucevic we would have signed a starting pg like Rubio to play with him and instead we opted to start with 21 y.o still not healthy Markelle. If that is not a prove i dont know what is. He is not ready yet to shoulder heavier load, almost every game he took over he came down with cramps.
Isaac's usage is going up every year, if we trade Gordon there will be even more plays run for him.


-There is a huge difference between "we want to" and "we are".

-Doubt the magic could have afford Rubio.

-Fultz is getting starting mins if he was injured he wouldn't be playing. Don't blame an injury for something the coaches are deciding to do.

-And the mere fact you said trade AG to give Issac more usage is proving my point why AG, Vuc, Evan and Ross must go. Let the young guys play.

To be completely honest I really don't think the Magic even know what they are doing. At some point you are going to have to realize you must go all in or or just rebuild, this halfway thing is not going to work.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#59 » by Rainwater » Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:37 am

Skin wrote:The Magic have the 5th highest salary in the league. How ridiculous is that?


That is pretty sad.
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PrimeThyme
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#60 » by PrimeThyme » Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:10 am

Outside of just my diehard fandom keeping me interested, there are a few things I think are somewhat interesting about this team. Isaac being the main thing as I believe he has a ceiling of a top 30 NBA player In this league if he can find a way to stay healthy. I find Fultz interesting as well. I think he could have a Bledsoe type career in this league, but again he will have to stay healthy for the long run. Bamba and Chuma are interesting in the sense that they are both wildcards (Bamba less of one), but I haven't seen enough from either to be able to judge their ceilings at all.

That's about where it ends though. Outside of those 4 pretty interesting players we have a roster chock-full of role players/overpaid veterans, a mediocre coaching staff (Cliffs below .500 record as a coach is evidence of that), a mediocre safe reserved FO, and one of the most ridiculed ownership groups in professional sports for reasons outside of actual basketball that has chosen a stand-in owner in the form of Alex Martins who has guided us to our worst 10 years in franchise history.

So it's like, can I blame you for losing all interest? No, in fact this franchise is seemingly begging everyone to with their decisions over the last decade && I'm still failing to see the light at the end of this pitch-black tunnel.
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