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I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan)

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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#81 » by zaymon » Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:46 am

Rainwater wrote:
J the Drafter wrote:
Rainwater wrote:
This not true. In most cases, especially recently, teams are blown up. Vets are not resigned because it makes no sense financially and stars believe they are still stars and are effective giving little opportunity to the younger guys. Most teams end up like the 90s Bulls rather than the rare 00s Spurs. This is not just an NBA thing but sports in general. Teams get blown up.

Vuc and Evan aren’t impeding anyone. The new players will take over as they get better and the vets get worse.

Had the Magic traded Vuc and Evan, tanked, and gotten a top pick, they’d be counting on a rookie to make a poor team into a good team. If the new pick wasn’t that good right away we’d be wasting Isaac’s, Fultz’s and Bamba’s prime while we tried to get better, and giving them incentive to leave.

In five years, Fultz, Isaac and Bamba will be leading the team if their development (which will happen in practice, not during games) goes as expected. (I hope Gordon stays, but his contract expires sooner so there’s no guarantee he does). If they’re not good enough to do that, then criticism is warranted.


That is how a rebuild works, lol. You let your young guys lead. Of course there are some growing pains and there are no guarantees but that is just part of the process of going young. Most of the greats had to do it that way, lol.

And Wasting their prime?!?!? 19 to 25 is typically considered your developmental period as the team and player gets their **** together. You don't hit your prime until you are 26.

Teams most successful in developing young players ( toronto, portland, san antonio, utah) proven that in most cases best way to develop a player is to let him earn his minutes.
Teams trade their veterans and rebuild when they dont have young talent. We have Isaac, Fultz, Bamba, Okeke and our pick this year. How many projects we need ? Whole rotation ?
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#82 » by thelead » Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:29 am

zaymon wrote:
Rainwater wrote:
J the Drafter wrote:Vuc and Evan aren’t impeding anyone. The new players will take over as they get better and the vets get worse.

Had the Magic traded Vuc and Evan, tanked, and gotten a top pick, they’d be counting on a rookie to make a poor team into a good team. If the new pick wasn’t that good right away we’d be wasting Isaac’s, Fultz’s and Bamba’s prime while we tried to get better, and giving them incentive to leave.

In five years, Fultz, Isaac and Bamba will be leading the team if their development (which will happen in practice, not during games) goes as expected. (I hope Gordon stays, but his contract expires sooner so there’s no guarantee he does). If they’re not good enough to do that, then criticism is warranted.


That is how a rebuild works, lol. You let your young guys lead. Of course there are some growing pains and there are no guarantees but that is just part of the process of going young. Most of the greats had to do it that way, lol.

And Wasting their prime?!?!? 19 to 25 is typically considered your developmental period as the team and player gets their **** together. You don't hit your prime until you are 26.

Teams most successful in developing young players ( toronto, portland, san antonio, utah) proven that in most cases best way to develop a player is to let him earn his minutes.
Teams trade their veterans and rebuild when they dont have young talent. We have Isaac, Fultz, Bamba, Okeke and our pick this year. How many projects we need ? Whole rotation ?

We would never let Donovan Mitchell play the role he does with Evan in the way. Hell, we traded a very similar player because we had Evan :banghead: (Don’t talk to me about choosing Dipo over Elf. Elf was a PG and we had 2 SG’s. We traded the wrong one)

San Antonio hasn’t done anything without Tim Duncan who was a star from day 1. Tony Parker played 30 mpg his rookie year as the 28th pick and Manu was the 57th pick playing 21 mpg his first year and 30 mpg the next.

Toronto actually plays their young players as well. Their second round picks play more than our lottery picks.

Portland doesn’t develop talent exceptionally well. They draft talent. CJ was Lillard-lite coming out of college. Damian is and was a stud.

If your argument is that our guys aren’t as good to be thrown into the fire, then fire the GM. I’m tired of the coddling and depending on these average vets. Especially traffic-cone-Evan.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#83 » by J the Drafter » Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:33 am

thelead wrote:We would never let Donovan Mitchell play the role he does with Evan in the way.

Why not? Why wouldn’t Mitchell play his game with Evan?
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#84 » by thelead » Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:19 am

J the Drafter wrote:
thelead wrote:We would never let Donovan Mitchell play the role he does with Evan in the way.

Why not? Why wouldn’t Mitchell play his game with Evan?

Because he would be on the bench playing 15mpg behind Evan. We would have him on a leash and likely wouldn’t be able to show his true potential thus not developing into a star. I could be wrong but nothing that I’ve seen this last decade has convinced me otherwise.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#85 » by zaymon » Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:46 am

thelead wrote:
J the Drafter wrote:
thelead wrote:We would never let Donovan Mitchell play the role he does with Evan in the way.

Why not? Why wouldn’t Mitchell play his game with Evan?

Because he would be on the bench playing 15mpg behind Evan. We would have him on a leash and likely wouldn’t be able to show his true potential thus not developing into a star. I could be wrong but nothing that I’ve seen this last decade has convinced me otherwise.

Yet we are starting both Isaac and Fultz. Its not that we dont play young players, we just dont play bad players. Fultz.is nowhere near Mitchell.right now, and still we inserted him into our starting lineup becouse we care more.about our future than present.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#86 » by Skin » Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:17 am

J the Drafter wrote:
thelead wrote:We would never let Donovan Mitchell play the role he does with Evan in the way.

Why not? Why wouldn’t Mitchell play his game with Evan?

If we had Mitchell we would bury him behind Evan and say "he needs to show it in practice first". Utah did the opposite of coddle him slowly.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#87 » by Rainwater » Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:19 am

Skin wrote:
J the Drafter wrote:
thelead wrote:We would never let Donovan Mitchell play the role he does with Evan in the way.

Why not? Why wouldn’t Mitchell play his game with Evan?

If we had Mitchell we would bury him behind Evan and say "he needs to show it in practice first". Utah did the opposite of coddle him slowly.


For the love God thank you. They threw that man in the fire, lol.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#88 » by Rainwater » Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:23 am

zaymon wrote:
thelead wrote:
J the Drafter wrote:Why not? Why wouldn’t Mitchell play his game with Evan?

Because he would be on the bench playing 15mpg behind Evan. We would have him on a leash and likely wouldn’t be able to show his true potential thus not developing into a star. I could be wrong but nothing that I’ve seen this last decade has convinced me otherwise.

Yet we are starting both Isaac and Fultz. Its not that we dont play young players, we just dont play bad players. Fultz.is nowhere near Mitchell.right now, and still we inserted him into our starting lineup becouse we care more.about our future than present.


We don't know how good Fultz is because we don't allow him to do anything lol
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#89 » by Rainwater » Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:32 am

MagicMatic wrote:This team is boring.

Fultz and Isaac are interesting players to watch develop. However, neither of them I would say excite me with their play individually.

Orlando relies on the same vet players to grind out uninspired basketball. There are also players with opposing skill sets that just don’t fit together well at all with Clifford’s ideology.

The magic haven’t acquired a go-to scorer via draft or free agency in forever and their draft strategy (record) doesn’t prove that to be their priority.

Ownership also expects wins every season despite hindering any long term goal or plan. This team has zero identity.

Those are the reasons this team isn’t interesting or watchable.


I am not going to lie to you while I do want Isaac and Fultz to play more there are times I do fear that they won't become the players that most want them to be. I just wish the organization would just gives these young guys the opportunity, the chance to dispel these feelings.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#90 » by Skin » Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:35 am

zaymon wrote:
Rainwater wrote:
J the Drafter wrote:Vuc and Evan aren’t impeding anyone. The new players will take over as they get better and the vets get worse.

Had the Magic traded Vuc and Evan, tanked, and gotten a top pick, they’d be counting on a rookie to make a poor team into a good team. If the new pick wasn’t that good right away we’d be wasting Isaac’s, Fultz’s and Bamba’s prime while we tried to get better, and giving them incentive to leave.

In five years, Fultz, Isaac and Bamba will be leading the team if their development (which will happen in practice, not during games) goes as expected. (I hope Gordon stays, but his contract expires sooner so there’s no guarantee he does). If they’re not good enough to do that, then criticism is warranted.


That is how a rebuild works, lol. You let your young guys lead. Of course there are some growing pains and there are no guarantees but that is just part of the process of going young. Most of the greats had to do it that way, lol.

And Wasting their prime?!?!? 19 to 25 is typically considered your developmental period as the team and player gets their **** together. You don't hit your prime until you are 26.

Teams most successful in developing young players ( toronto, portland, san antonio, utah) proven that in most cases best way to develop a player is to let him earn his minutes.
Teams trade their veterans and rebuild when they dont have young talent. We have Isaac, Fultz, Bamba, Okeke and our pick this year. How many projects we need ? Whole rotation ?

I don't know if there's a stat for this, but I would imagine if you don't start in your first 2 years, the odds of you becoming a star are probably terrible. Slow development routes are for average to above average players at best.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#91 » by pepe1991 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:16 am

Skin wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Skin wrote:Or he could feel disrespected by the way the team has treated him after 4 years and try to get out of here by signing a 1 year contract that would allow him to be a UFA the following summer.

I mean that is historically what we do here. Develop players who go on to have much better careers outside of Orlando.


Google "Nerlens Noel turns down 4 years contract" and you'll find out not a single smart person in the world , other than Noel and his stupid menager EEVEEEER did that.
He refuses to sign extension and gets buried on the bench, or gets hurt, odds for him earning more than extension after that year are zero.

Dion Waiters turned down OKC's $6.8M qualifying offer, then they got salty and rescinded it. He ended up signing with the Heat for 1 season and then resigned with them on a 4 year, $52M deal. Greg Monroe turned down the Pistons 4 year, $54M offer...signed a qualifying offer and then signed with the Bucks on a 3 year, $50M deal. Jmmy Butler gambled on himself and won BIG. Kawhi Leonard too... when the Spurs were hesitant to give him a max deal because they wanted him to take a discount. He burned them with antics they couldn't tolerate and then went on to greatness. So this happens.

Yeah, sometimes players make mistakes gambling on themselves too... but the bottom line is that the Magic need to avoid that kind of situation. Either have a plan for him to become a star or trade him. Weltman can't afford to turn that draft asset into mush. If all they get out of the 6th pick of the draft is a backup Center then their vision failed. Their scouting failed. Their development failed.

They lose confidence from patient Magic fans who see other players drafted after Bamba become good players or even worse, put further emphasis on the agony of why they didn't trade up for players like Trae Young and Luka Doncic when they had a chance. Mavs gave up a future 1st for Luka. Magic probably never even considered giving up a future 1st in order to beat the Mavs offer. ATL was willing to move down. But no, the Magic wanted to keep their pick in order to draft a player like Chuma Okeke.

Seems like every Vuc defender has a great view of the Magic and loves the direction we are headed, despite the fact that it is a dead end. I don't know what Bamba will be, but I know that if he doesn't start showing star potential soon that we are headed down another dead end. If the Magic keep killing hopes and wasting top picks, then we will never get out of this pit of despair.



Players almost never bet on themselfs for simple reason. Team can literally burry them if they want to. You sign QO and team simply DNP-s you and then what? Cry for trade? If player is that terrible, he won't even get a chance to sign QO, rather just become UFA year later ,as team decline team's option.

Butler, Monroe , Ben Gordon, had star power behind their names where it was impossible to not play them. Waiters was 4th overall pick, all nba rookie first team , lit up whole thing in Raising challenge ( 23 points in rookie year off bench) but he was also traded later because of Cavs championship aspirations.

For all the Vuc hate/ love there is still not a single, objective point that explains why Vuc "hinders" Bamba so much, if we all know Bamba isn't NBA starter today? Because guy simply is not. His conditioning, helth issues and skillset simply does not allow him to play more than 12-18 min of serious basketball today. So what's the problem?

Other than making draft mistake, that was slap in a face and so obvious from day one, what else is there to talk about? Mo isn't Luka, Mo isn't Trae, and by a look of things, Mo isn't even JJ Jr nor SGA. He is project big that needs to figure out what's his basketball purpose and find his role on serious team.

Soul made interesting, yet ironic point ,but not in way he probably thought, how Magic played CJ Watson, AA and Jeff Green over their youth. You know who "youth that needs more PT was" ? Payton, Gordon and Hezonja. Look where they are at now.
Fringe rotation player, average starter and part time starter on 21-45 team. So was decision to not play them more, give them more usage ever actually bad one? No. It just shows how fans know little ( or should i say know nothing ? ) about actual skills, potential and limitations of players that are on their favorite teams....

Bamba will be fine... if he is talented, skilled, driven and hungry enough to work on his limitations. If he is not, starting and playing more time won't save him. Just like Jah Okafor wasn't saved by playing unlimited min with unlimited usage. Just like MCW didn't turn into superstar just because he had no leash during his rookie year. Just like Ben Gordon didn't turn into Michael Jordan just because he shot 20 shots per game on rookie scale contract.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#92 » by SOUL » Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:57 am

pepe1991 wrote:
Soul made interesting, yet ironic point ,but not in way he probably thought, how Magic played CJ Watson, AA and Jeff Green over their youth. You know who "youth that needs more PT was" ? Payton, Gordon and Hezonja. Look where they are at now.
Fringe rotation player, average starter and part time starter on 21-45 team. So was decision to not play them more, give them more usage ever actually bad one? No. It just shows how fans know little ( or should i say know nothing ? ) about actual skills, potential and limitations of players that are on their favorite teams....


This has the benefit of foresight though. In general, it is not a good business model to let retiring vets play more minutes over young, high picks no matter how their career turns out to be. This isn't a scenario of a rookie Courtney Lee joining the Magic and having to play up to the level of established vets trying to win a finals, I'm literally talking about end of the road veterans that retire the following year or 2 after playing with us for their last goodbye.

I mean, I feel like we can reach some sort of common ground on this pepe.

Am I saying that young players should play 36 mpg and play with impunity? No. They have to work hard and earn the minutes and be a professional. It also obviously matters if what sort of state their team is in, as like, rebuilding, title contenders, wanting to make playoffs, etc.

But am I saying that a self identifying rebuilding/developing team has to put young players first and foremost? Yes.

That's not us NOW, but when we were rebuilding we didn't do that. We half-assed it. Some played, some didn't. At the end of the year we would usually play our young guys together as starters and tease the fans but it wasn't until a year or two later where that became the starting lineup. The fact that we had waited SOOO long JUST to put the young guys together as a starting lineup where they would have to learn how to play with each other and go through growing pains made so many fans impatient when they only had a "true" year or two together as a unit.

You cannot be an impatient rebuilding team and you cannot be a patient "title or bust" team. It's just how it is. Mix philosophies and you're in for some big issues.

Not to mention, there are just as many young players that coaches hand-wave as young players they can't find enough playing time for that they move on from. If Bucks knew what Tobias would be, they wouldn't of traded him to us. Detroit doesn't trade Khris Middleton if they knew what they had. Malik Beasley isn't traded from the Nuggets if they knew he could put up 20+ ppg on 47/42 shooting with more minutes for the Timberwolves. I'm just picking random people that come into my mind but it's just as easy to NOT give people minutes because they're young and coaches prefer veterans even if they are old and useless.

You don't know how many stories I've heard in football, baseball, basketball, etc where coaches can't move on from vets until they get hurt and the young guy comes in and never loses the position again and becomes an all-star.. but if that vet never gets hurt .. who knows what the hell happens.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#93 » by j-ragg » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:57 am

We’ve been very blessed to have Fultz and Isaac go stand in the corner on offense. Asking for anything more would be greedy and unrealistic.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#94 » by basketballRob » Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:40 am

We're getting close to the point where we hand over the team to the young guys. We did it years ago with Jameer and Dwight. We traded Grant Hill and made Dwight and Jameer the captains. I could see that happening next year with Fultz and Isaac.




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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#95 » by zaymon » Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:00 am

basketballRob wrote:We're getting close to the point where we hand over the team to the young guys. We did it years ago with Jameer and Dwight. We traded Grant Hill and made Dwight and Jameer the captains. I could see that happening next year with Fultz and Isaac.




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You grew right in front of our eyes. I am proud of you Rob. First meaningful and not offensive insight i read from you for a long time. We will see what Fultz shows us after the break, i hope he has more strength in his shoulder now. I dont know if we have to trade all of our vets, but definetly decrease their roles.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#96 » by MagicMatic » Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:53 pm

You guys are crazy if you think this team develops players the same way other teams do.

No, all those other examples have elite talent first before they start allowing developing players large amount of minutes. The Magic expect wins at all costs and don’t trust youth over players that put up numbers, even if it means playing overpaid washed vets that won’t be here in 2 years.

It’s a combination of bad drafting, poor roster construction, and expecting W’s regardless of future planning.

I’m not going to list countless examples of players and teams that don’t need 6 years to “ease them in” to minutes. Orlando digs their grave every season with these guys and they usually end up going to other teams to thrive. Coincidence?
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#97 » by thelead » Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:24 pm

It’s funny. In one breath: trust the front office because we don’t have the type of talent that we can throw into the fire (like Bol Bol) and takes 5 years to develop. And in another breath: we can’t do what other teams do because our young guys aren’t as talented.

Hennigan had 5 drafts.

If it wasn’t for the pandemic, Weltman would have 4 already.

Time is ticking in my book. I’m not advocating for Weltman to be fired but his seat has to get hot if this is still Hennigan’s team next year. He’s had plenty of time to change the blueprint the old regime left behind.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#98 » by PrimeThyme » Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:11 pm

thelead wrote:It’s funny. In one breath: trust the front office because we don’t have the type of talent that we can throw into the fire (like Bol Bol) and takes 5 years to develop. And in another breath: we can’t do what other teams do because our young guys aren’t as talented.

Hennigan had 5 drafts.

If it wasn’t for the pandemic, Weltman would have 4 already.

Time is ticking in my book. I’m not advocating for Weltman to be fired but his seat has to get hot if this is still Hennigan’s team next year. He’s had plenty of time to change the blueprint the old regime left behind.

The Bol Bol thing is just a perfect example of how a good team develops a player versus how a mediocre team like us with a GM who thinks he's smarter then he actually is coddles them. Bol Bol had not played a second of NBA basketball outside of these last two games and despite being considered an extremely injury-prone player he not only plays 35 minutes last night, he also gets 19 shot attempts and the freedom in a meaningless game try things out as a player and develop.

Bamba through 2 games hasn't even totaled 15 minutes. I don't think in his NBA career that he's ever played more than 20-25, even in an exhibition game. He absolutely has never had even close to that many shot attempts in a game. Bamba can play 3 games and barely total that.

When a player is healthy, you play them as if they are. You don't curl up in fear and play them in limited minutes to try and avoid an injury at all costs. When you have top 6 draft picks on a mediocre basketball team, you also see what you have in them and give them bigger roles and minutes in order to do that.

The frauds in our front office are scared to do either.
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#99 » by thelead » Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:30 pm

zaymon wrote:
thelead wrote:
J the Drafter wrote:Why not? Why wouldn’t Mitchell play his game with Evan?

Because he would be on the bench playing 15mpg behind Evan. We would have him on a leash and likely wouldn’t be able to show his true potential thus not developing into a star. I could be wrong but nothing that I’ve seen this last decade has convinced me otherwise.

Yet we are starting both Isaac and Fultz. Its not that we dont play young players, we just dont play bad players. Fultz.is nowhere near Mitchell.right now, and still we inserted him into our starting lineup becouse we care more.about our future than present.

lol... because DJ is better than Fultz? Is your argument that we play Fultz over DJ because of the future?
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Re: I have lost interest in this team, why? (25 year fan) 

Post#100 » by zaymon » Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:41 pm

thelead wrote:
zaymon wrote:
thelead wrote:Because he would be on the bench playing 15mpg behind Evan. We would have him on a leash and likely wouldn’t be able to show his true potential thus not developing into a star. I could be wrong but nothing that I’ve seen this last decade has convinced me otherwise.

Yet we are starting both Isaac and Fultz. Its not that we dont play young players, we just dont play bad players. Fultz.is nowhere near Mitchell.right now, and still we inserted him into our starting lineup becouse we care more.about our future than present.

lol... because DJ is better than Fultz? Is your argument that we play Fultz over DJ because of the future?

Is your argument that Fournier is better than Mitchell and thats why Donovan would play 15 minutes from the bench ? You dont even understand your own writing. I made the case that we play young players extended minutes if they are capable of handling it. Regarding DJ vs Fultz its close between them, but DJ makes everyone better, while Fultz destroys our spacing. When you check lineups our team performs noticeably better when Dj is on the floor.
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