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Chuma Okeke (injury update post #16)

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Re: Chuma 

Post#21 » by Xatticus » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:10 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:
Knightro wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:I slotted him at SF. You have him at Stretch-4.

Maybe we are both wrong?

Maybe it doesn’t matter what role Chuma or Isaac play as both are fairly versatile and that is the key. These are position-less forwards who can switch up their defensive duties on a nightly basis as the situation demands.

Play them together with Fultz running the show and leave the story there. Do we really need to get fixated on position labels?


I'm not hung up on what position they play at all. As you said, it's "positionless" basketball. But you know who are two forwards who can switch up defensive duties on a nightly basis as the situation demands? Jonathan Isaac and Aaron Gordon.

For me, it more comes down to offensive skill sets and how those skill sets complement each other. The Magic's offense is already pretty poor with Gordon and Isaac as the starting frontcourt.

Replacing Gordon with Okeke could/should be equal or perhaps even better defensively than Gordon/Isaac is, which is great. But Chuma certainly appears to be an inferior ball handler and generally a more passive offensive player than Gordon is.

Okeke *should* be a better shooter than Gordon, but is he just going to plant in the corner on every possession?

I just think offensively Okeke and Isaac are pretty similar. They both appear most comfortable as low usage guys who are willing to blend in and defer to the more aggressive offensive players on the court. I don't think either guy has the ball handling ability to become a significantly higher usage player. Simply put, they're both role players offensively. 4th or 5th option types.

You can have one passive, mostly non-factor offensive player in your lineup if they're awesome at other things, which Isaac already is defensively, but I don't think you can have two and succeed at a high level without a mega star to overcompensate.



With all due respect ...

Chuma, Gordon and Isaac are at very different places in their careers.

Compare the college shooting numbers of the three players (AG free throws! ouch!) and it is hard to maintain the argument that Chuma is redundant offensively.

Isaac, sadly, has not improved much statistically from college to today on his 3-pt shooting. In volume and percentage Chuma was a far superior shooter in college than both. Will that translate to the NBA? If so, he adds something uniquely different from the other two.

We would all prefer someone who could put the ball on the floor and create for himself over a 3&D spot up shooter but that is what you settle for when you don't have a high lottery pick.

Regardless, we have Cliff as our coach and Chuma is coming off a serious injury. Chuma will be a member of the 2nd unit to start his career so this is not really an argument worth having any time soon. Redundancies will clear themselves out in time.


Okeke is going to be a project at the offensive end. His only real plus is that the ball doesn't stick in his hands. He had fairly high 3-point attempt rates, but he wasn't really a high-volume 3-point shooter because he just didn't shoot all that much. He wasn't a better shooter than Isaac was in college. He was actually rather miserable from midrange in both seasons and his free throw percentages were middling, so it's very possible that his 3-point percentages aren't going to translate at the next level. His finishing at the rim was solid, but he is an undersized big. You can be an interior presence in college at 6'6", but that just doesn't work in the NBA. I like his decision-making, but he is very limited overall. He's mostly just a pick-and-pop guy with the ability to attack a closeout. He is also less than a year younger than Isaac, so his rookie season will correspond to this season for Isaac with regards to age.

If he is to have legitimate value, it is going to come at the defensive end. He is a solid team defender and he has quick and active hands. If he has the footwork to defend in space, he could be a nice versatile defender. He has a big frame, but he plays like a wing. Can he defend NBA wings at the point of attack?
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Re: Chuma 

Post#22 » by tiderulz » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:38 pm

Knightro wrote:I really like Chuma Okeke... as a stretch 4.

Really see him as a high end glue guy. A player who does a lot of little things - taking charges, diving for loose balls, making the extra pass - that can energize teammates and really contribute to a winning team.

But I'm confident he'll do more than that. I do genuinely believe in Chuma's jumper translating to the NBA. I like his basketball IQ, decision making and passing ability. I think he could be a starting PF for a lot of NBA teams. I think he's comparable to PJ Washington who had a solid rookie year in Charlotte.

I just don't know if Okeke has the speed/quickness, ball handling or general aggressiveness with the ball in his hands to be a full time wing offensively.

If I'm wrong and he can become a NBA SF, that would be huge for the Magic moving forward, but I'm not overly optimistic on that. Still like him a lot as a player.

not every SF has to be a ball handling SF. the prototypical 3&D player can be catch and shoot
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Re: Chuma 

Post#23 » by Knightro » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:47 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:With all due respect ...

Chuma, Gordon and Isaac are at very different places in their careers.

Compare the college shooting numbers of the three players (AG free throws! ouch!) and it is hard to maintain the argument that Chuma is redundant offensively.

Isaac, sadly, has not improved much statistically from college to today on his 3-pt shooting. In volume and percentage Chuma was a far superior shooter in college than both. Will that translate to the NBA? If so, he adds something uniquely different from the other two.

We would all prefer someone who could put the ball on the floor and create for himself over a 3&D spot up shooter but that is what you settle for when you don't have a high lottery pick.

Regardless, we have Cliff as our coach and Chuma is coming off a serious injury. Chuma will be a member of the 2nd unit to start his career so this is not really an argument worth having any time soon. Redundancies will clear themselves out in time.


No disrespect taken whatsoever.

I actually am a believer in Okeke's jump shot eventually being an effective weapon for him at the NBA level. It's smooth and repeatable.

My main concern is that he was a passive, poor dribbling, low usage player in college and again, this is just me projecting, but I don't see him being able to become a more effectively aggressive offensive player at the next level. He doesn't appear to have the mentality or the ball handling to be a significantly higher usage player.

I do think he'll end up a better 3PT shooter than Isaac, but if you pair those two together you run into a lot of the same problems you currently have with Gordon/Isaac. Two subpar ball handlers who can't really create easy offense for themselves or for others in the starting front court.
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Re: Chuma 

Post#24 » by OrlMagic05 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:18 pm

Skin wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
Knightro wrote:I really like Chuma Okeke... as a stretch 4.

Really see him as a high end glue guy. A player who does a lot of little things - taking charges, diving for loose balls, making the extra pass - that can energize teammates and really contribute to a winning team.

But I'm confident he'll do more than that. I do genuinely believe in Chuma's jumper translating to the NBA. I like his basketball IQ, decision making and passing ability. I think he could be a starting PF for a lot of NBA teams. I think he's comparable to PJ Washington who had a solid rookie year in Charlotte.

I just don't know if Okeke has the speed/quickness, ball handling or general aggressiveness with the ball in his hands to be a full time wing offensively.

If I'm wrong and he can become a NBA SF, that would be huge for the Magic moving forward, but I'm not overly optimistic on that. Still like him a lot as a player.


I slotted him at SF. You have him at Stretch-4.

Maybe we are both wrong?

Maybe it doesn’t matter what role Chuma or Isaac play as both are fairly versatile and that is the key. These are position-less forwards who can switch up their defensive duties on a nightly basis as the situation demands.

Play them together with Fultz running the show and leave the story there. Do we really need to get fixated on position labels?

There shouldn't be any concerns that Chuma can play SF. Yeah he's more like a glue guy, but he's a guy who you can leave in at the end of games because he plays hard on defense and he can space the floor. His strength is playing off the ball, but he is decisive and a quick decision maker. You watch him and you know that he has a predetermined mindset of what he's going to do when he touches the ball. This helps him get his shot off quickly, take advantage of holes in the lane or find the next open guy. He'll use his body to play a more physical game moreso than try to dribble through traffic, but that's ok. Physicality is another dimension this teams needs to add.

The key is roster construction. We need Guards who hunger to score. A backcourt like Lillard/McCollum would be crazy ideal for us (I know, not happening). But a trio like LAC - Patrick Beverly, Paul George, Lou Williams would also be the type of complimentary Guard set up that I think would be good for us.

Getting there is another story, but imo it's an ideal time for us to go all in with the draft. Because we are set up with complimentary players at every position,I feel like we can give up future picks and being aggressive to move up in the draft to get Edwards. A backcourt of Fultz and Edwards in 2-3 years would be exciting, especially when you look at the rest of the team.

If we can somehow turn Gordon into Oubre, I'll be an even bigger happy camper.

Markelle Fultz / MCW
Anthony Edwards / Terence Ross
Kelly Oubre / Chuma Okeke
Jonathan Isaac / Al Farouq Aminu
Nikola Vucevic / Mo Bamba


Just curious, how in the world do you expect to get Edwards (top two pick) without giving up any of our young assets? lol
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Re: Chuma Okeke (injury update post #16) 

Post#25 » by BadMofoPimp » Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:49 pm

Chuma aught to be over his injury by now as it is pretty much almost training camp for next season if we didn't extend the current season.
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Re: Chuma Okeke (injury update post #16) 

Post#26 » by basketballRob » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:30 am

Chuma was scheduled to play in summer league, so i assume he's ready. Too bad we didn't have enough under the luxury tax line to sign him at the beginning of the year. He could've played now like Bol Bol.

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Re: Chuma Okeke (injury update post #16) 

Post#27 » by jonbob17 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:39 pm

Isn't that kind of the point? The team gets to put off the rookie contract for another year.
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Re: Chuma 

Post#28 » by yoyojw17 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:34 pm

tiderulz wrote:
Knightro wrote:I really like Chuma Okeke... as a stretch 4.

Really see him as a high end glue guy. A player who does a lot of little things - taking charges, diving for loose balls, making the extra pass - that can energize teammates and really contribute to a winning team.

But I'm confident he'll do more than that. I do genuinely believe in Chuma's jumper translating to the NBA. I like his basketball IQ, decision making and passing ability. I think he could be a starting PF for a lot of NBA teams. I think he's comparable to PJ Washington who had a solid rookie year in Charlotte.

I just don't know if Okeke has the speed/quickness, ball handling or general aggressiveness with the ball in his hands to be a full time wing offensively.

If I'm wrong and he can become a NBA SF, that would be huge for the Magic moving forward, but I'm not overly optimistic on that. Still like him a lot as a player.

not every SF has to be a ball handling SF. the prototypical 3&D player can be catch and shoot

Agreed. I'm all about complimenting the team. and his IQ and quick decisions with his passing would go well with this team. Not everyone has to be the type that can dribble the clock out for 10 sec at a time. Plus... he has an advantage with his post up ability. People might loverlook it's importance.... but for me an advantage is an advantage.

The funny thing is... some players have great metrics... but still kill their team play as a whole. I'd rather have a 12 pnt a game scorer that provides winning results that a 25 pnt scorer that you still lose with. At the end of the day... the importance is.... the "W"
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Re: Chuma 

Post#29 » by drsd » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:57 pm

Bensational wrote:I'm not sold on Chuma. I think expectations are way too high on him fuelled more by the mystery factor than anything.


I am sceptic ptic of all rookies. Here, with injury issues, I am just hoping Okeke becomes a rotational player. That is: Iwundu's replacement.

Those that see him as a 2022 starter, well, I am sceptic.


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Re: Chuma Okeke (injury update post #16) 

Post#30 » by Max Power » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:03 pm

Gotta agree with DRSD, I’m not expecting Okeke to take the league by storm in year one. He’s coming off an injury and hasn’t played a minute professionally. I’ll be happy if he comes in and earns time by making the most of the minutes he plays. He can do that by putting in the effort and fitting in on defense, hitting open shots when he gets them and by being an opportunist by getting hoops by cutting to the paint. If he does those things he’ll help the team and will have plenty of chances to improve long term.
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Re: Chuma 

Post#31 » by basketballRob » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:05 pm

drsd wrote:
Bensational wrote:I'm not sold on Chuma. I think expectations are way too high on him fuelled more by the mystery factor than anything.


I am sceptic ptic of all rookies. Here, with injury issues, I am just hoping Okeke becomes a rotational player. That is: Iwundu's replacement.

Those that see him as a 2022 starter, well, I am sceptic.


..
I can't remember having another rookie that appears to be as polished as him. He already has a veteran's type game.

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Re: Chuma Okeke (injury update post #16) 

Post#32 » by Knightro » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:08 pm

I think it's possible Okeke could step in to backup PF minutes next year and hold his own.

I don't expect much more than that next year. And I could easily see a lack of minutes if Gordon, Isaac and Aminu are all on the roster next year.
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Re: Chuma 

Post#33 » by drsd » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:35 am

basketballRob wrote:I can't remember having another rookie that appears to be as polished as him. He already has a veteran's type game.


Respectfully:

a) in what was is Okeke polished?
He was not in the top-100 players in scoring, rebounding, assists, or blacks and was about 70th in steals his last NCAA year. Okeke is an all arounder with good intangibles. That screams Bench-player in regular rotational minutes. And at draft-slot 16, that is a very fine selection.

b) Wes Iwundu was the most recent "very polished player" as a rookie on this roster. Perhaps the most polished rookie Magician was Courtney Lee. James Augustine and Travis Diener were also very polished coming in to their rookie years. And the only "polished" players that had actual upside was perhaps Jonathan Clay Redick and Jameer Nelson. My point: "polished player" is almost a disparaging slur these days where "upside" is the keys of an NBA draft.


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Re: Chuma Okeke (injury update post #16) 

Post#34 » by drsd » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:39 am

Knightro wrote:I think it's possible Okeke could step in to backup PF minutes next year and hold his own.

I don't expect much more than that next year. And I could easily a lack of minutes if Gordon, Isaac and Aminu are all on the roster next year.


Reflectively, if Fournier opts in and Gordon is traded for a new starting SG, the Frenchman will return to the SF slot and Okeke will then be thrust upon major minutes at both forward slots. As the roster stands now, he would be competing with Aminu, Ennis (who WILL opt in) and maybe Clark for major-rotational minutes. That is a winnable battle at camp for the rookie.


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Re: Chuma 

Post#35 » by drsd » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:40 am

yoyojw17 wrote:At the end of the day... the importance is.... the "W"


For me Okeke was drafted at 16 as he is seen as a Winner.

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Re: Chuma 

Post#36 » by yoyojw17 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:53 pm

drsd wrote:
yoyojw17 wrote:At the end of the day... the importance is.... the "W"


For me Okeke was drafted at 16 as he is seen as a Winner.

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Yup.... and that's what every report consistently came out with. Scouting report... coaching and teammate interviews. when people say that there is "no doubt in my mind that we would have won the championship if chuma didn't go down"... you know the kind of impact the guy has.
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Re: Chuma Okeke (injury update post #16) 

Post#37 » by bigdogdylan5 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:21 pm

I don’t understand how you all can make these proclamations positive or negative. He hasn’t played one professional game yet. I tend to lean to the positive side because I think without injury he is in the lottery and I like his defensive game and possible ability to hit 3s. We will see
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Re: Chuma Okeke (injury update post #16) 

Post#38 » by drsd » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:30 pm

bigdogdylan5 wrote:I don’t understand how you all can make these proclamations positive or negative. He hasn’t played one professional game yet. I tend to lean to the positive side because I think without injury he is in the lottery and I like his defensive game and possible ability to hit 3s. We will see


Where is the And-2 button ???


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Re: Chuma Okeke (injury update post #16) 

Post#39 » by Rainwater » Yesterday 3:37 pm

Isn't Anthony Edwards projected to be a top 5 poick? Who is giving that up for either Vuc, AG, and Evan.

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